Setting Boundaries with Confidence: Insights from Kwame and Minson

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right, everybody, welcome to a special episode of the Negotiate Anything podcast. This is kind of a behind the scenes episode because I've been doing these training sessions with one of my mentees who is now actually on the team at the American Negotiation Institute, Minson Vo. And now what we've decided to do is record these sessions and share them with the world because we're talking about a lot of fun stuff and if we can help other people with it, might as well do that. So I think a great way to start would be just giving you the stage for a bit Minson, and give you an opportunity to introduce yourself. So, Minson, thanks for joining us and tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. Yeah. Great.

So I'm Vincent. I'm a third year undergraduate university student and I just for some reason have this passion for negotiation, communication, all things human interaction. It started in high school when I picked up my first negotiation book and ever since then it was just a domino effect that just went from this one to this one to this one. Started watching a lot of negotiation content keynotes, listening to a lot of podcasts, and also talking to a lot of negotiators to get their insights on things. And right now I think I'm approaching my fourth year on this journey and. And I know I'm progressing because I feel like I know nothing about negotiation, despite having four. The concept, it can be so simple but so complex at the same time. And that's what makes it so fun to me because there's always more to explore, even though there's. It's the same old principles in every single situation. It's different. You're a different person every day. You're never going to face the same situation twice. It's just this big game of life that I'm seeing in front of me. So that's what makes me so interested in it. But, yeah, other than that, I'm really grateful to have these coaching sessions with Kwame.

Let's talk about our topic today, which is setting boundaries, learning how to say no, which is an essential part of any negotiation and essential part of life, too, because anytime you say yes to something, you have to protect that yes with hundreds of no's in order to actually follow through with our commitments and live the life that we want to live. And. And so what we're going to do, audience, is we're just going to have an open conversation about the challenges of setting these boundaries when this comes up. And then we're going to actually do some role plays at the end, too, so you can get a flavor of what this could look like. So, Minson, I know you've been doing a ton of research for A&I and with your company as well, when it comes to negotiation and whatnot, when it comes to setting boundaries, saying no, what have you found as some of the most challenging aspects of that?

Oh, great. So one thing is really communicating authenticity, maintaining credibility when you're saying it. When I'm talking about that, I mean say no in a way that makes the no seem real. Now, I think that personally, you should never say it when it's not real. You shouldn't just say no for the sake of saying no for no reason. But if you have genuine reason why you think you should say no, then you got to make sure the other person can feel it in the conversation. So for me, the main challenge when I started negotiating was I kept thinking of saying no as a tactic instead of like that I actually want to say no because I can't actually accept what they're giving. So when another person would ask me to do something, and I know I can't do it, but I'M thinking of no as like, okay, how am I going to tactically execute this? No. I literally would be sitting there just thinking for 15 seconds, I'll be like, yeah, no, they just saw me consider if the answer was possible or not, rather than just saying, oh, yeah, yeah, that, I'm sorry, I just can't do that. So I think for me, it's maintaining that authenticity while I'm doing it to make it real.

Yeah. And I think this goes down to one of the most important tenants of our approach to negotiation here. It's the authenticity, keeping it real, being genuine. Because if you're kind of playing games, then it's easy for people to see that you're playing games or they might misread it and consider it. Hesitation. If the answer is no and it's a true no, then. Then it's easier for it to be believable simply because it is true. And going back to that point that you made about considering the no, one of the things we have to do in our preparation is understand very clearly not just what we want, but also what we don't want so we can have that clarity in the middle of a conversation to say, yeah, we're running up to a boundary. So I can really clearly articulate that. No. A lot of times what ends up happening is we haven't thought through our boundaries. And so somebody asks a question that we haven't really considered, and then we think about it, and then we give a tepid or hesitant no. And a good negotiator, kind of be like a shark. They smell the blood in the water. That no didn't seem very strong. So I'm going to turn that into a yes. Because they're probably playing the game. Yeah. So that preparation and authenticity and being clear with that communication is going to be critical.

Oh, yeah. When you mentioned, like, knowing it when you go in the conversation is a big thing too. Having it in a place in your mind where it's not going to get lost while you're in the depths of the negotiation. I think that's really important. When I was doing simulations, it was harder to say no, because those things, it's a simulation, so it's not real. And when it's not, like, real real, it's not at the top of my mind what my boundaries are. I'm like, crap, I forgot the facts. But in real life, I'm like, okay, yeah, I definitely can't do that. I definitely can't do this. So 100%, yeah.

And I think we have to recognize too that this ability to say no, it will apply in every aspect of our life. It's going to be in our personal life, our business life. It might be a transact negotiation or it might be us as people working on a team, leading a team, those type of things. We have to understand what those barriers are. And for me, I think approaching this with a little bit of simplicity helps to make it a lot easier. So having a framework that we can put in place when it comes to no. How to actually say no, A book reference for you and for the audience. The Power of a Positive no by William Urie. He was the co author of Getting to Yes. I talk about this in my own books, but the inspiration for my model comes from that book. So I call it the no Sandwich tip technique where you have a no that is sandwiched between two yeses. So first is a yes to what it is that you're already committed to. And then there's going to be a brief and succinct no. And then there's going to be a yes to the continuation of the relationship or the continuation of the negotiation. So for a very simple example. So Minson, let's say we're chatting or you're asking, hey, Kwame, can you hang out Friday morning at 9 o' clock or Saturday morning at 9 o'? Clock? And I say yes to my original commitment. So on Saturday morning I actually am going to be watching my son play soccer. That's the yes. That's my commitment. And then I will say, so unfortunately I can't hang out on Saturday morning. So that's the quick no. And then the yes is to our relationship or the continued negotiation where I'd say, but I'd still love to hang out. So let's talk through some other times where we could get together. So it is a really simple framework for how to say no that actually could strengthen the relationship too. Wow.

I've heard it done before, but I never really thought of it in that type of framework.

Oh yeah, yeah. It makes it so simple. I think it's super helpful. And the thing is, sometimes people, when I'm doing trainings and whatnot, they'll say, okay, well what if I say that and it doesn't work? What if they keep on pushing? I say, well, in that case, clearly the person's hungry because you feed them another no sandwich. And this is, I think, another nuance of how to set boundaries that people often miss. They feel like they need to diversify their response. So I said no. One time, maybe they didn't get it. So let me say no in a different way. Let me come up with a different reason, right? You only need one reason to say no and that's it. You don't need better reasons to say no. So you just reiterated. So you just say, hey, like I said before, I've got this soccer game on Saturday, so I can't do it. But if you want to figure out a way that for us to try to make this work, let's keep on chatting. And you just keep on cycling through the exact same framework with the exact same points. You don't need to diversify the reasons for setting the boundary right.

And it seems like creating focus, your mindset is also really, really important in these types of situation, especially what you focus on. Because if you're in a situation where the other side, let's say you're a small startup and bigger company wants to acquire you and they have all the leverage, that's kind of a very big situation compared to what we talked about. But in those situations, it's really hard to say no when you know you have no leverage. And it seems like it'll be better to focus on creating value or collaboration in those scenarios rather than, oh, crap, how do I like do this? How do I tread carefully on this without ruining this deal?

Yeah, well, let's talk about leverage, because I think leverage is a really important factor of analysis here too. Because there's never a situation where you have no leverage. We have limited leverage for sure. We have to be creative about it. So we have to understand the distinction between power and leverage. So power is something that is kind of embedd. There's an authority like a rank that's in place. So within a company you might have somebody who outranks you. They have more objective, like power. In that example that you gave, it might be a large company trying to acquire a small company. They have more name recognition, they have more money. That could be a source of power. But leverage, on the other hand, is situational and strategic advantage. So you might not have power, but you can, with creativity, find some source of leverage too. So going to that example of the small business, maybe their source of leverage is, is they have a patent, so that's something that could protect them. Or maybe the source of leverage is they have unique industry knowledge that could be beneficial or some customer relationships, those type of things. So if you are really clear on your unique source of leverage, you can come to the negotiation table feeling a little bit more empowered. Even if you don't have a traditional source of power. And when it comes to setting boundaries and negotiating, especially if there's a power dynamic that's not in your favor, we have to think about the situational circumstances that are at play that creates that dynamic. But then we also have to think about the psychological impact, because it's not just that you don't have power, it's that you also feel powerless at the negotiation table, which has a psychological impact, which changes the decision making approach that you have. And so if you can feel a little bit more empowered, then you come to the table negotiating differently and you're not going to be as willing to let people infringe upon your boundaries. You're focused on your own source of power as well.

Oh, that's helpful. Yeah. The difference between power and leverage. So you say the power is positional, your status. I'm assuming your ability to influence because that's also leverage. But I'm just gonna say like you're positional. It's positional. But leverage is more specific, situational.

Exactly.

And I remember yesterday I was reading something so one thing you can do to empower yourself, and now I know how to apply it, is ask yourself before a conversation or negotiation. Just the question of what are my strengths coming into this conversation. Just go over all of that in your head and I would change your focus on it.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Let's use us as an example, right? Because I'm the CEO of A and I and you're helping us with research and all these different projects. So I have more power over you within the company. But then when it comes to. Let's talk about the that super top secret artificial intelligence project we're working on, right? You've done more research on it than I do. You've actually interacted with the product a lot more than I do. So I have more rank within the company. But you have more strategic advantage in this Interaction because you actually have information and I need that information from you. When it comes to leverage, a big part of analyzing leverage is a needs based analysis. Who needs the deal more, has more relative need. So yeah, you could say, yeah, Kwame is the CEO. He has all the power and leverage. But you have something I need, which is information that came from the work that you put in.

Yeah, 100%, that's something. And from my experience going among these different negotiation methodologies, just out of curiosity, is that a lot of modern methodologies don't put enough emphasis on it. And it's like, okay, yeah, you shouldn't go in the situation with the mindset of destroying the other side or threatening the other side though. Leverage should always be in the back of your head or even sometimes in the front of your head because it's always important. It's a force that's always there. And you recommended me a book a while back, the Bargaining Advantage. I believe that's the name by Richard Shell in there. Explains it like very, very well. I forgot if it was him because I did hear this from another source as well. But leverage can be divided into three types as positive, negative, normative. And sometimes you may not have one, but you may have the other.

Yeah, 100%. And yes, that was the book. And I think in terms of analyzing power versus leverage and going down into it, that's the best book on the market. Bargaining for advantage on it. I think other who addressed it pretty well, Stuart diamond and Jim Camp did well in their books. But yeah, and I would even push that analysis too bid when it comes to the leverage. Because when you have positive, normative and negative, with positive power, we're talking about what are things I can add to your life to make your life better? Negative, this is more on the coercive side. What are things that I can do to make your life worse? And then normative, this is like the societal advantage. How does society look upon me and this deal in this situation? I would even go a little bit further. You would have psychological power. Like psychological power can come from confidence, it can come from intimidation, whether or not you feel intimidated. So somebody could feel intimidated. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the person is trying with intentionality to be intimidating. Right. So that psychological leverage is going to be part of it. Leverage from information. Like that's the example you would have over me. When it comes to the AI project, you've just done more research. And when you start to think about the different layers of leverage and power and where it could come from. Now negotiation becomes a lot more fun because you can always be an empowered negotiator, even if you don't have a classical source of power.

100%.

Yeah, man. It's cool. Let's run through the exercise. Let's keep it super real, because let's just say I'm a hard charging CEO running a little consulting firm, trying his best to change the world. And I'm pushing my employee, which is you, in this situation, very realistic scenario as to do more work. You have things to do. You're still in school, you're in this amazing new program and everything like that. So you have to let me know. Hey, man, I can't. I can't do all this stuff. So, based on what we've talked about today, in this little session, I want you to set boundaries here. I'll give you some feedback and then we'll flip. You'll be me, I'll be you. I'll try my best and see what I can do, too.

Okay?

Sound great. Great, great, great, great. All right, cool. Hey, Minson, thanks for taking this meeting. So, really exciting stuff. I know you've been working on this AI project, which is great. It's going really well. There are a couple of things that I'd like to discuss with you. First, I want to make a course to go along with the AI project, teaching people how to use the tool effectively. I think that could give us a strategic advantage in the marketplace. And then we have this audible course that's coming out in January that you helped us with on how to listen effectively. I think we would be really missing out on an opportunity to turn some of the material from that course into a book as well. So at the end of Q1, my goal would be to have you kind of take the lead on creating this course for the AI project and doing additional research for the book on how to listen effectively as a negotiator. Wanted to touch base with you to see how you were feeling about taking on a little bit more work.

Awesome. Kwame. I'm just curious because I know Q1 plays into a big larger picture. So what's the end vision for all of this?

Let's talk about it from a more principled perspective because again, with our goal, we want to help as many people as possible with this content. And so my goal would be to try to increase our digital footprint. I think a lot of people could benefit from using the AI project, taking advantage of that tool once it's done. And then also I think a lot of people would benefit from reading a book on how to listen effectively. But from a negotiator's perspective, I think if we were to create those two things, get those things out, we'd be able to reach more people and, but also teach people effectively, while at the same time, which is the second point, create more scalable products as well. Because right now I'm doing a lot of travel. I want to focus a bit more on the media side of the company, which is the podcast and YouTube and things like that, so we can create more money that doesn't actively require me to get on a plane, do a training and things like that.

So honing on, on that last point, you want things that would use your time in the most efficient manner to get the most output for the company.

Yep, that's right.

Awesome.

Awesome. Yeah. So what do you think?

You're not going to want to hear what I have to say next.

Why do you say that?

Because I'm going to sound like an employee that's trying to avoid responsibilities.

I mean, I guess that depends on how you frame this.

Right now, US already assigned me to working on the actual development of our AI that's taken up half of the hours I'm assigned every single week. And also I'm tackling responsibilities from our chief operating officer in the sales process, which is taking up the other half of the hours. So it's going to be really, really hard for me to fit this in right now. So if we can find a way for me to balance everything and to accomplish our envision as ani that you mentioned earlier, then I'd be happy to discuss that.

Pause for a second. Man, this was great. That was really, really good. So I was taking some notes, so this is what I saw. So first you started off, before responding, you clarified using the empathy loop. So it's a three step listening process. First you heard what I said, then you paused and you said, all right, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like this is what it is that you're working on. So you gave a good summary. You did not advance until I said, yeah, you got that right. So that was a really great way to empathize, to start things off, to make sure that we're clarified. It also serves as a bit of a timeout because I hit you with something, gives you some time to think through it and prepare. So you slowed down the conversation in that way, which was great. Then you got curious, which I thought was fantastic, obviously. But I like the fact that you actually said Hey, I want to get curious. That has a kind of a magical softening effect, too. Not just going into, like, straight asking a question, almost like a cross examination. You eased into it nicely with that preamble saying, I want to get curious for a second and ask some questions. So you turned it into a traditional negotiation by gathering information to figuring out what my interests were and then honing in on the interest of the fact that I want to digitize products to make a little bit more of an efficient use of time. I saw the classic Chris Voss. I forget the term he uses for it, but you're not going to want to hear this. I think that worked well in this context because it did make me lean in and say, hey, well, what do you mean? It's almost like rushing to your defense. Like, oh, Vincent, why. Don't worry, it's okay. I thought that was great. And then the way that you used the positive no framework from Yuri that you just learned was super smooth. Like, I didn't even realize that it was the framework until it got all the way through. Because you said, well, right now, 50% of my time is already doing the AI project. 50% of my time is with Steph doing sales and ops, which, by the way, I did not know. Which is actually really good context for me. So you never want to assume that the other person knows what it is that you're working on. I'm the CEO and I still don't know everything that everybody's working on. Right. So that was great. Yeah. No, I didn't make that up. I really didn't know. Oh, you did make that up.

Yeah. I don't. I.

It was so good because I know Steph's working on that. So. So really good job. Really good job with the acting. But just in general is a good, good way because you showed your commitment. Hey, I'm already doing this, and it's already taking up all my time, so I can't add something to the plate. But let's keep on talking to see how else I could support, because I didn't feel like you were rejecting me. I felt like you were saying no to what I was suggesting and at the same time, recognizing that I had a legitimate need and offering to be a support in other ways, continuing the relationship and the negotiation. So, man, you crushed that.

I have some. I have some reflecting thoughts for myself as well.

Yes, Please share.

Yeah. One thing that I realized toward the end that I'm like, oh, I should have mentioned this. I didn't. Was that how important the project is to me as well. Like, that's really, really important to me as well. And that's just. I know it's just like a common ground thing. It's not applicable in every situation. But the fact that we're in the same company, and that's like, my role is to support the company. What you mentioned is 100% important to me. Like, I want to get this done. So instead of saying, let's discuss something else, it would be like, so how else can we approach this?

Yeah. Oh, I think that would have been a good addition. And so two points on that. First, even though you didn't say that, and it would have made the simulation better, you didn't need to perform perfectly to get an acceptable outcome. And I think a lot of times this is one of the reasons I like to do these sparring sessions without any prep, because after we debrief, we can show people you don't need to perform perfectly to get the outcome that you want. You're never going to say exactly what that you wanted to, and you're always going to have those, what I call shower comebacks, where after the conversation's done, you're in the shower, you're like, man.

I should have said that thing.

I still have that, too. But as long as you follow the principles and you stick to it, even if you don't perform perfectly or articulated perfectly, it's still going to work. The reason I like that as an approach, too, is because this is one of the fundamental tendons of trust building, too. We're on the same team, working toward the same goal. And whenever you have the opportunity to articulate that, I suggest that you do, even when you think that it's obvious. Because when people get really emotional, sometimes it turns into this us versus them mentality. And that tribal mentality makes it harder for people to empathize, connect, listen, understand, or even work through things in a collaborative way. So you always want to make sure that you're hitting that narrative, just letting people know, hey, listen, I'm on your team. I understand you want xyz, and I also want xyz. Let's figure out how we can work together to accomplish that in a way that doesn't cause any other unintended consequences.

Right. We're not doing a fake simulation right now. And it's something that's actually somewhat applicable, although you're really good at giving out tasks. So I never had to reject any responsibilities. But it's like that authenticity is projecting through as well, or at least I try to be as authentic as possible. In that simulation, it didn't feel like I was saying, I can't do this because of blah, blah, some reason I made up. I was thinking about it. I was like, okay, in this situation, like, who am I? What am I doing? Like, no, I'm dedicated to this and that. Like, I'm trying to not even make you feel. I'm just trying to let you see my situation as it is is like, I literally cannot move. I'm stuck here. And it's not emotions or an ulterior motive. It's being closed in two walls that are physically there.

Exactly. No, I think that, again, speaks to that power of authenticity, because I think a lot of times people struggle because they're trying to find some really cool way to say something they don't really truly believe. So it becomes much harder to access those. It's contrived. It's what you truly believe, and it's actually the scenario. You don't need to try to think about that fabrication that you came up with five minutes ago. It comes up organically because it is what it is. And I think in this scenario, yeah, we have situation where it's bandwidth hard stop, can't do more. And I think a lot of times people might feel hesitant to use a technique like this when there isn't a clear hard boundary where it's mainly an issue of preference. And if it's an issue of preference, you might not have enough power to establish your preference. So I think when it comes to preference, sometimes somebody just might have. Have more power within an organization to say, okay, I understand you don't want to do this, but sometimes as part of a team, you have to do this. I'll reference an episode where Dave Stahobiak, the host of the Coaching for Leaders podcast, came on and he said, yeah, at some point, you get to a point within a relationship or a power dynamic where you don't have any more influence or authority, and you've done your best trying to influence without authority. But sometimes, even though you try your best, you still might end up having to do something that you don't want to do.

Right.

But I think when it comes to setting these boundaries, I would encourage people to still lean into the authentic realization that sometimes not feeling comfortable doing something or not wanting something to be done a certain way or personal preference is a good enough reason to set a boundary. And I'll be honest with those people on those types of things. So sometimes somebody might want me to do an element of a project that I don't really want to do or feel comfortable doing. I'll just say, hey, listen, as far as the way that I prefer to spend my time, I like to do these things. And what you suggested, I recognize how it would really be helpful for you, and I want to be completely transparent with you. That's just not something that I feel comfortable doing or I enjoy doing. So if that's something that you need, I respect that, and I can put you in contact with another person who can do that for you. But if you're willing to be a little bit more flexible, we can do those things. And I think, again, just being honest with that is better than the alternative. Awesome.

No, I'm excited to see you negotiate this, Kwame. But before we do, speaking on the power of authenticity and somewhat related to vulnerability as well, well, Ms. Brene Brown, we would love you on the Negotiate Anything podcast if you're listening. Okay.

That would be a lot of fun. Cause I think, especially in difficult conversations, people don't fully understand what vulnerability means. Like, it can be really scary if done the wrong way. So there's a lot to explore there. But, yeah, man, let's run through the simulation. You can be me, I can be you. I think you did a really good job already. We'll add a couple more wrinkles, and then we'll wrap up, because I know Steph wants to chat. Oh, yeah. All right.

So, Kwame, how have you been?

I've been good. I've been good. I got into this entrepreneurial program here at my university. So thank you for that letter of recommendation. Things have been good.

I'm happy to give you the recommendation. I mean, I was on vacation, but it was you, so I had to go in and type that. I really, really enjoyed it. I'm glad you had the program.

Thank you. So, yeah, what do you want to talk about, boss?

So I know you're working on the AI right now, and actually, I know you have school for a few more semesters until you're out. What I like to do is I like to give you the option. This is a big, big commitment or investment for ani. If you would want to do this is right now, we are trying to expand ANI to different countries. Instead of making it the American Negotiations Institute, we want to make it the Global Negotiation Institute. And the only way we can do that is if we partner with certain firms that Steph has filtered out that are different countries around the world. North America, Europe, and Asia. The thing is, these firms because of the differences, because of their preferences, we just can't do zoom. So what I like to do is I'd like to propose you a project that will transition to your full time position as well, or actually be the start of your full time position. That will pull you out of school right now and we'll fund your trip to different countries in Europe and Asia ob a few months long and then you'll take a break and then it'll be another few months long and then you'll take a break to negotiate deals and we'll send some more people on the team, including the coo. I'll go to some of them and. Yeah. So what do you think?

Wow. Well, first of all, I think that sounds really exciting. It sounds like it's a really cool expansion of ani and I like the global context. But before I respond, I just want to make sure I have everything right. So it sounds like the idea is to move the regional branding focus to something that's more international because we do have large international following. So starting different or collaborating with different institutes in different parts of the world in order to create partnerships that will allow us to get a footprint established in these different locations. Is that a fair synopsis?

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

100%, yeah. Well, again, it sounds really exciting and I can tell that you definitely put a lot of thought into it. I know how you're always trying to think strategically about the advancement. My concern right now is about bandwidth. And so before I respond, I want to get a little bit more clarity on what your vision is for me within this expansion.

So, yeah, I mean, you are the person that has done the most research on AI and we want AI to be the forefront of our new negotiation approach. So having you at the negotiation table and these different places with these different companies really be of help, even if you're not the main one negotiating. And if the negotiators need, if the other side needs any type of information or our side needs any type of clarification, you would be the person.

Okay, that sounds great. And okay, now as far as time commitment, it sounds like you're expecting me to physically leave this location and actually go there. And about how long do you think this would take?

So three months for the first like dozen of deals, then probably a month break and then three more months for another dozen deals. We don't know for sure though. Again, this will be probably the start of your full time position. So it would be time consuming. I can't even avoid that. It's Going to be time consuming, though. It's also going to be fun. And we're going to pay for your plane tickets and everything.

That sounds great. I love traveling. And now, here's the thing, Minson and I want to be completely transparent with you here. Right now, I'm in my third year. I'm in this entrepreneurial program, made a commitment to my family that I was going to see this through, get done, and get done on schedule. So unfortunately, right now, based on the way that you described it, that's a commitment that I can't make because it would interfere with my studies and push me too far back. But I will say, though, I want to find some way to be involved in this, even though I am in school in a way that allows me to still continue with my studies and support. Considering that, what changes do you think we could make to this opportunity that could allow us to accomplish both?

I thought about this for a long time. It's just, why can't you leave the program?

Leave the program at my school? Yeah.

I mean, this is. Isn't the point of the program to help you have a successful job, a successful career? If you start off your career traveling the world and negotiating deals, there's no better alternative that a school or university can give you?

I think that's a really good point. And before I answer the question, Vincent, I can tell you. Tell me if I'm off on this. I can tell that my response is a little bit disappointing and probably a little bit surprising, too. Am I close on that? Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. And again, I apologize because I don't want to disappoint you in this way. The problem is I also don't want to disappoint my parents, who I made that commitment to as well. So I want to be clear, I'm very grateful for this opportunity. I definitely see that this would be beneficial to my career. It would really be a strong start. The problem is that, as it is currently configured, it would require me to leave school, which would push me back. If there's a way for us to kind of get around that, I think we might be able to work something out. But I can't make a decision that would push me back beyond schedule for my university studies. Okay.

I guess I have to find some way that changes at my part. I don't know right now. I can't really force you to do this or anything. I'll meet the rest of the deal. I'll update you how it goes.

Perfect. All right. And let's Pause. Okay. Even though it was similar, it was very different. Let me let you have the first shot at the debrief, and then I'll debrief and then let me get back to Steph, because I know. I know. I'm late for meeting with her, too.

Yeah, no. First of all, I'm glad I didn't take your name, because I would have made you a terrible negotiator in that situation. I try to make. I was going to. I was trying to play the role of somebody who gave something really big that there was, like, in their head, they're like, there's no way he would reject this. The things I observed is that at the beginning, what I noticed was from the start, I think it was body language or something. Like, you gave off. I don't know this was a purpose or not. You gave off the vibe that you were leaning toward. No, so it was like a cone or something. So you know, like how when people talk, you're listening to them talking, like, oh, they're gonna say but in like, two seconds. Yeah, that's amazing. But you didn't say but, because that's not a vocabulary. But you said that, and then you gave the little no thing. And I was just, like, really, really shocked afterward. I was like, what would a typical boss do in this situation? I'm like, but this situation is. I'm giving you so much. Like, the university can't give you this. And then you mentioned your family, your commitments, and inside, at the moment, like, throughout the entire thing, for the moment, you said, no. I did feel, like, really, really discomfort. And at the end, I still felt that, like, rejection is painful, but I didn't feel I could blame it on you. It's like if somebody misses a really important meeting and then texts that they have Covid, you want to be mad at them, but you can't because you know it's out of their control. Definitely that type of feeling. And if anything, I think that one thing that could have made me feel even better at the end. It's maybe just personal experience, though. For me, especially the cultural difference coming from an Asian, semi traditional Asian household, family is the most important thing. There's politics, everything, work. Everything is secondary to family. So if you mentioned something about your mother or your father, explain or, like, describe more about what you committed to them, I think I would have felt not only that you couldn't do it, but I would have felt moved as well. I would have felt, like, really, really encouraged to do something else for you. But, yeah, Kwame I love that.

Let's start off with that last point too, because essentially, I mean, let's go back to Aristotle and the persuasive triad, like ancient Greek style. We have logos, ethos, pathos too. You're talking about the passion, the pathos side of it too, because I had the, like the logos, the logic, the ethos, the credibility. That doesn't really apply in this situation. But I went really hard on the logic. I really could have gone a lot harder on the passion too, to just say, hey, listen, I don't want to disappoint my parents. They worked hard to get me here. They kind of paint that clearer picture. I think that would have been strong. That's a good call out too. I noticed one of the things was there was a lot of silence on your end, thinking through it. And I want to be clear for everybody who's listening too. I still have that desire to jump in. Silence isn't really comfortable. You can become more comfortable in silence, but it's hard to get to that point of perfect level of comfort. So I still wanted to jump in, but I recognize no restraint. Discipline, let him process. He's processing right now. So I'm not going to jump in. Even though there's an awkward silence, I'm going to let that marinate for a little bit. Another thing you said that I thought was a great analysis here. You felt discomfort knowing that the no was coming. You felt discomfort when you received the no. But then with the way that I approached it, you said you still felt discomfort, but you didn't blame me for it. Yeah, I thought that was really well articulated. And that's the thing. A lot of times people allow the emotions or the fear of the emotional response of somebody else have a negative impact on them. But you're not responsible for their emotional response. You're responsible for approaching this conversation in the most respectful way possible to minimize the likelihood of a negative emotional response while accepting that you cannot control their emotional response. So I could see that discomfort and I knew I did the best that I could to try to minimize that. And even though I recognize that discomfort, I didn't let that emotional or psychological pull let me jump in and try to alleviate your discomfort by giving in to what it is that you wanted. Just a simple negotiation rule. We do not trade emotion for substance. So I'm not going to make a concession because you feel bad. That's not a good move. Right. So you can see that there was one point where I used mirroring saying what you said Repeating what you said, but with an upward intonation to get you to explain more. After I dropped the framework of the no sandwich. Yes, no, yes. Then it was more just flowing back with compassionate curiosity. So if you're new to the program, Compassionate curiosity framework. That's our approach to dealing with difficult conversations. Step one, acknowledge and validate emotions. Step two, get curious with compassion. Step three, joint problem solving. And when somebody responds to me with emotion, even though they might respond with substance, I ignore the substance and address the emotion alone. So when you came back at me saying, well, I don't understand why you would say no to this. It's such a great opportunity. What holding you back. Why would you do this? Sensed emotion there. I ignored the question and I just addressed the emotion. So I acknowledged and validated the emotion and I said, hey, Minson, before I respond directly to you, it sounds like you're a little bit disappointed with my response. Is that a. Am I close on that? And then you explained, yeah, I'm disappointed. Gave you that opportunity to vent and then gave you that emotional payment saying, because you're like, this is such a great opportunity. I wanted to say, yeah, this is a great opportunity. And I do appreciate this. This because you're right, this would put me in a good position. So I'm agreeing with everything that you're saying. And I also made a commitment and I would need to stand firm to that commitment. So I want to be part of this, but I can't break that commitment. So you can see how you sequence that. You address that emotion part first before being kind of drawn into an emotional back and forth. Why wouldn't you do this? I'm saying, no, because I need to do this, but why? Blah, blah, blah. And then it turns into a, like an emotional back and forth, forth where you are asking a question driven by emotion and I am responding driven by substance and logic. And those two things just aren't meeting. So I'm going to meet you at the emotional part. Lower that before I move on to substance again.

Oh, this was fun. It's awesome.

This is great. Cool, cool, cool. So when Steph is like, why didn't you join the call? I can tell you're upset. I'll have to hit her with some compassionate curiosity too. But cool, man. I think this was a strong first start to our published coaching sessions. For those who are listening, we'd love to get your feedback. Let us know what you think. If you liked it and you haven't left a review yet, leave us with a five star review. We really appreciate that. Minson, any parting words before we wrap?

There is one thing. Is that even if you do master the ability to say no, say yes sometimes as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Listeners, make sure to give Minson a follow. We'll tag his socials in the description and with that, we'll catch you in the next episode. Have a good one.

See y'.

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