SPARRING SESSION: How to Have Difficult Conversations With People Who are Constantly Interrupting You With Nancy Medoff

Hello, my friends, and welcome to our practice session. In our practice sessions, we invite our featured guests to show off their negotiation and conflict resolution skills in a realistic scenario. In this session, I want you to pay attention to what our guest does and not to what I do, because while they are trying to show off their skills and teach you, I am trying to frustrate their efforts in different ways through things like aggression, annoyance, emotionality, or awkwardness. And then after the practice session, we debrief and talk about what worked what and what you can use in your next difficult conversation.

All right, everybody, and welcome to our sparring session. Nancy is back for the sparring session, and we're ready to go. So let me set the stage. This one's going to be a bit different because you are going to get two sparring sessions for the price of one. Just like those classic infomercials. Two for one. Could it get any better? This is great. So the first sparring session is going to be me acting as Nancy's client. And so it'll be a conversation that she would have with the client. She's going to set the stage and give us an idea of some of the challenges that might come up in the conversation that she has to use, she has to work through as a coach. So we're going to see how those negotiation skills operate as a coach working with a client. So I'm going to try to be difficult in different ways for that sparring session. Then we're going to do a breakdown. We're going to talk about what happened, and then we're going to have the sparring session that you have been waiting for, where Nancy acts as the client would in the difficult conversation that they're prepping for. So the conversation that we're prepping for is a difficult conversation where the person continues to get interrupted. So we're going to see how Nancy would coach somebody in preparation for that conversation, and then how the client should comport themselves as the conversation actually happens. So, Nancy, let me hand it over to you to give us a little bit of additional context before we start this unscripted, difficult conversation.

So the women and men that I coach tend to come to me when they are looking to level up their game. So it could be executive presence. It could be communication skills. It could be that they're stuck somewhat stagnant in their career, and they want to think about what they want to do next. It could be people who maybe are struggling with imposter syndrome, even though we don't like to call it that feeling like an imposter, let's call it. And yeah, people who really just need help speaking up.

Perfect. Great. And describe the character I'm playing.

So, Kwame, you are a senior level executive, either managing director or somewhere around that level. So C level or SVP level. You are pretty well established in your career, but you feel as if sometimes you struggle and you trip over yourself when you're trying to advocate for yourself or for your team. You feel that that's holding you back. You want some help with your executive presence and being more persuasive when you are trying to communicate your value or the value of your team.

Love it. Yeah, this will be great. Awesome. So let's jump into the session. Nancy, thank you for taking this session on short notice. I really appreciate it. I have this conversation coming up and I really don't want to mess this up and I need some help.

Okay, well, first of all, thank you for trusting me to help you, because I know how important this is for you and I know it's an investment, and let's see if we can figure out kind of what's going on. So you mentioned that you don't want to mess this up. So tell me why this particular situation is so high stakes for you.

I feel like my career is on the line, honestly. And I've been working so hard to get to this point, and now I have an opportunity to pitch my idea for a new strategic approach for the company. It's a very traditional company. We've been doing things the same way for a very long time, and it's been successful for sure. Clearly, we're a large company, but times are changing. Technology is having an impact on the way that we do work. The company is more diverse than ever. Our clientele is more diverse than ever. And I feel like we need to make some adjustments in order to make sure that we can survive into the next generation. But I'm reaching resistance, and I just don't think anybody's going to take me seriously. I don't. Honestly, I don't even think we should. This is kind of a stupid idea anyway. I should just. They. They have their strategy. They have their strategy. We should just keep on the strategy. I don't know why I keep on trying to step out of line. This is kind of dumb.

Okay, so you just. I just heard a lot. So let's. Let's start with the first thing I heard you say, which is you think that your career is on the line. So here's what I would ask you Kwame, is your career really on the line? Is it that much of a catastrophic situation? Like, let's say you present the idea and it doesn't get wings? Is that the end of your career, really?

Yes.

That would be horrible.

That would be absolutely horrible. Because if I try this and then it doesn't work out, then that's on me. Then I look bad. And so we were doing things all one way.

All.

For decades, we've been doing this all one way. And here comes Kwame thinking he's special. He tries something new. Now this fails, and it's a clear A to B connection between me and that thing. It probably is not even worth the risk. Honestly, now that I'm saying that out loud, it seems really dumb.

So tell me a little bit more about the company. Because you mentioned that you have this great new strategic approach. It sounds like it might be innovative. Is innovation rewarded at your company? Does the culture support new ideas?

Our CEO always says if it makes dollars, it makes sense. So it just is completely contingent upon whether or not it makes money.

Okay, so will this new idea make the firm more money if they adopt this new idea?

I think so. I think it's pretty clear, but anything can happen. I could be wrong, but I do believe that this is something that could help the company for sure.

Okay, so you think it will make more money. Are you able to demonstrate how this idea will make more money? Because at the end of the day, you know, if you're going to present your idea, you need to be able to tie it back to the. So what? So what is the end result of this idea? So if you were to move forward with this new strategic approach, what's that? So what?

Well, I've actually done a lot of research on this, Nancy, based on my numbers that I've run on this, conservatively speaking, could probably add 5 to 7% to the bottom line, if I'm speaking conservatively. But if this really hits, I believe it could be maybe 10 to 15%.

Great. So you're looking at 5 to 15% in. This is incremental, right? This is incremental revenue to the bottom line.

Yes.

Okay, great. So that's awesome. So there's your first point. Right. So when we frame things, we try to frame them in threes, because people will remember things in threes. So my job, Kwame, is to help you pull all this together so that you can present it persuasively. And the first thing we're going to do, we just kind of jumped ahead to framing things. In threes, and we have one of them. But the first thing we're going to do is we're going to start with your audience. So who's the biggest stakeholder here for this idea?

Well, it depends on the way that you frame it. When we think about the stakeholders, obviously we have the clients who are going to be the recipients of the service. So they're going to be interacting with the strategy outside the company, but within the company, it's going to be the managers and their direct reports who have to be executing the strategy.

Okay. And who's the decision maker if this moves forward?

Our boss seems to want to have their hands in everything, and so ultimately it's going to have to pass by them, but I think it's going to be this. The person that I report to directly right now is the chief operating officer, and so I'm going to have to get that guy on board and then get his blessing in order to take it to the top.

Great. So what's important to the coo? What's his name?

His name is Steve. Steve is a jerk. He's kind of mean. They call him. It used to be behind his back, but once he heard it, he actually embraced it. Steve the steamroller.

Okay.

Yeah. He loved it, actually. He thought it was hilarious. And so now he got this little toy of a steamroller. He has it on his desk, and so we go to the meetings, and he has that right there. And so it's almost like a reminder for everybody who he is and who he enjoys being.

Yeah. That's interesting. So is that really. Do you think that maybe is what's causing you to catastrophize this one idea that you're presenting? Is it because of Steve and how you think Steve might react?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, people. People consider it a badge of honor. When you don't cry in front of him, you try to cry later. You know, it's pretty rough, and he does not care. He's pretty well insulated in the company, and so the decorum that most other people need to share to have, he doesn't have. It's almost like a tenured professor. You have to try hard to get out of the company. When you have his level of seniority.

Would you say he's a good business person? Like, if the idea has merit, would he entertain the idea? I mean, if it's a good idea and you can present it persuasively, if.

It'S a good idea, he'll take it for his own and put it forward. So that's another thing we have to consider too. But I think again, if there's a clear path to victory and it can be at least framed as a win for him, I think it's good. But he, I don't know, I'm not a psychologist here, but it seems like he might have a fragile ego where if he's threatened by the success of others. And so I think that's something that we have to work through.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's always important to understand what's going on with the other person. I think we would probably do well by spending our times together focused on the idea and focus how you're going to persuasively present the idea. So it's always good to know or to try to understand what makes Steve tick. Steve's a coo, so I would imagine one of his number one priorities, to your point, is increasing the bottom line. Right. So this idea, one of the things this idea is going to do is increase the bottom line. That's going to be important to Steve, that's going to get his attention. What else is important to Steve that you can tie back to this idea? Is it process efficiencies? Is it more clients? So, like, what's another benefit of this idea? What's another outcome that that will come from this idea?

Yeah, so you're right. The bottom line is big Efficiency is big too. He's very process and systems oriented and so we have to be able to explain how this is going to work. So that's very important. He's very detailed in that regard.

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Is there a process improvement as part of this plan? Is there something that will maybe save time for the company or save resources for the company as part of the process efficiency?

I haven't thought about that. Think of that as something I need to address. For sure. Okay. Yeah.

So, I mean, we're not going to solve it all today, but. But now we have. So we have increased to the bottom line. We have some kind of process efficiency again. It could be saving hours, it could be saving resources, whatever the case may be. And then the last thing that any CEO is going to care about, it doesn't matter if he's Steve the Steamroller is clients. Right. Because without ringing the cash register, nobody has a job. So what's the impact to either either attracting new clients or retaining or increasing the client value of existing clients? Is there some kind of client relationship here or some kind of connection to clients?

Yeah, and to me, one of the key elements of the strategy is scale because again, it helps us to leverage the power of technology to serve more people without necessarily adding much more people power on our side, too. It will allow us to increase our client base without having to increase the amount of team members to service this new client base.

If you had to guess, what would you say? How much do you think you could expand your reach with the clients?

It's hard to say. I need to look deeper into the data to see exactly what it looks like. But if I recall correctly, I don't have my notes. I believe that we could expand the diversity of our clients. And I'm not talking about, like, racial or gender diversity. I'm just talking about in terms of the problems that we solve. And so I don't think we need to move too far outside of our industry in terms of, like, what we've already been doing. But I think we can solve more problems, which helps us to serve our current clients in a new way. And then probably some other people who said, oh, we couldn't go with ABC Corp. Because they don't do xyz. I think now we can start to service those people as well.

That's great. So you think you can get higher, wider, deeper within your existing accounts, and then at the same time, perhaps bring on some newer clients?

Yep.

Okay. So I don't know if you noticed what we did there, Kwame, but we just came up with three really compelling reasons for why this is a good idea. And I know you have a lot of work to do, and we need to put metrics on this. Of course, we need to be rock solid with the metrics, because you know that Steve the Steamroller is going to want. Going to want to hear all those. So we have higher, wide, or deeper within the existing accounts and new client retention. That's number one. Number two, this. This idea is going to result in process efficiencies or elimination of redundancies or whatever that looks like. And then number three, and most important that we would probably say is that there, conservatively, there's the potential to increase the bottom line from 5 to 7%, and if it gets wings, up to 15%. So do you see, Kwame, how if you frame it in those three particular points, that you will at least get Steve's attention and get him to consider it?

Yes, I do. And I will say this was a successful part one of the sparring session. Well done. Well done. This is great. So I took some notes. Let me run through what I saw, and I'd like you to expand on that. So first, I wanted to start off by throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall. I wanted to try to confuse you with a lot of things. I'm like, what's my problem? Everything's my problem, Nancy. Figure that one out. So I wanted to throw a lot of insecurity, a lot of incoherent details, and a little bit of apprehension to even going forward with this. And so what you did was really great because you focused on one thing and then you had me go deeper on that. You said, well, you told me a lot there, but you said, mess me, you might mess things up. What does that mean? And you went deeper on that specific term. So I gave you a lot of things, and you simplified it by focusing on one and going deeper. I thought that was great. You also focused the conversation really well, and you worked through my anxiety because you realized that we're not really going to get anywhere until you can address those emotional concerns, too. And so you were really good at suspending your agenda and addressing those emotional concerns until they stopped getting in the way of the conversation. Because, again, like you said, in the actual effort, there's a difference between facts and feelings, but those feelings are going to have an impact on how we interpret those facts, too. So you had to address that emotional component. So that patience there was really great. And then I love how you seamlessly started to coach me through how to have the conversation by helping me to organize my thoughts so I can be organized internally, so I can share it in an organized fashion externally. And then also focusing on the merits of the idea, too, because you recognize that even though at the moment I wasn't believing in myself, I still believed in the idea. And so by focusing on the value of the idea, essentially, it reanimated me and I was reengaged. And I started to, again, get back into the conversation. Also, if you were to probably do a bit of a breakdown of the conversation, percentage wise, I was talking a lot more. And so that is because of your curiosity, asking great questions and helping me, giving me an opportunity to vent, but also gathering information so you could be, be a better problem solver and you set clear targets. Because for me, I was coming with a generalized plan, but really no path to victory. But you started to get very clear on what it would take for me to be successful, which helped me to realize that there is actually a plan that could lead me to success if I'm very clear on what those metrics are. And then we can focus the messaging directly toward those metrics, which I thought were really great. So afterwards I felt very confident in what the path forward was going to be, what the strategy was going to be, and actually what I was going to say at the meeting. And so those are my quick notes because I was acting and taking notes at the same time. But I'd love to hear your thoughts too.

So I think it's interesting because I was extremely frustrated because you were like, oh, it's just not a good idea. And you said that two or three times, maybe three or four times. And this happens a lot. So a lot of times. And it doesn't matter who you are in the organization, people will catastrophize the situation. So. And that's why I said, are you really going to lose your job if you, if you, if this idea doesn't, you know, doesn't get wings? And the other thing that I was trying to get at was, you know, Kwami's innovative. Is the company innovative? Because if not, like, if really they believe been doing the same thing for 20 years and they don't value innovation. You need to figure out whether or not you want to stay with this company. Right. So, I mean, I would never really leave because of a boss. Steve the Steamroller. Okay, we've all worked for Steve the Steamrollers. But if the company isn't a match for what you want to be doing, that would be. The next conversation is, well, let's talk about why you're with this company that's not aligned with your values and how long you think you'll be able to be happy at that company. We didn't get to that because you were a great client and we got right into the actual issue. And that happens all the time. I mean, you know, it happens all the time. Are you really going to lose your job if you don't do well with this presentation, I have that conversation with people probably several times a week. Like, let's take it down a notch, right? If you. If you mess up, for whatever reason, it's not the end of the world. So let's. Let's get that fear out of the way is that you might mess up, you probably won't, and we're going to get you trained so that you don't. But if you do, it's not the end of the world, because if you go into the negotiation or the presentation thinking that you have to be perfect, something is going to go wrong. It always does. So you have to have the confidence in what you're presenting to not worry about if you mess this up or the other thing up.

Yeah, yeah. Well said. Well said. Yeah. And you handled that really well because I didn't want to let you off the hook. When you said, are you really going to lose your job? I was like, yeah, I will. I'm doubling down. So you handled that really well. And the way that you handled it was very. It was very smooth and fluid. So I think a lot of people might have missed it. But essentially what you said is okay. So approaching it with sheer rationality didn't work. I was not in a rational state. But what you decided to do was you shifted again, the focus to the idea and the path forward. Okay, so what's the idea? Why do you think it's a good idea? How can you pull this off? What matters to the company? And so I essentially started to talk through it myself. You didn't have to say, kwame, it's a good idea. It'll make money. They'll go for it. You had me say those things, and you ask questions to get me to say those things, and I calm down through the process.

Yeah. You know, the other piece is the first. So what? Or the first benefit was the increase to the bottom line. The next one. So you said CEO, and I think. Sorry, coo. I think coo, process efficiencies, results. That's what a COO cares about. If you had said that the cfo, we would have talked more about finance, because that's what the CFOs care the most about. So you know what they care about based on their role. So in order to be persuasive, without having the conversation with them and without asking them specifically, what do you care about? You can make some educated guesses and some assumptions on what they're going to care about, and 99% of the time, that's going to be accurate. Particularly if it's a client.

Exactly. Yeah. And I think something that's really important for us to realize is again, the value of patience. Right. And I would call it active patience, because I don't like the term patience. I don't like to wait. But it's active patience because you're doing something in the process. Because you could have started off the conversation saying, here's the plan. This is how you articulated boom, boom, boom. Right. But I was not in any way ready for that. We had to get to that point. And a lot of times what's really tough is in these difficult conversations, we know exactly where the conversations should go. And we're confident enough in our skills to know most likely we are going to get it to that point and we just want to get there. But we have to say, okay, well, sometimes the fastest way to get there is a little bit more circuitous because I have to clean up the mess that Kwame gave me. I have to handle his emotions, and then I need to paint the picture for him, and then I can get to that outcome that I know we can get to, but I have to drop it at the right time.

For sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, this is great. This is great. Yeah. You were testing my imagination. I was running out of ideas.

When you were testing my patience, I was running out of patience.

And I am excited now that freestyle led me to come up with Steve the Steamroller. And I'm pumped to be this guy. This is going to be fun. Okay, so now we're in phase two of the sparring session. And so I am going to be Steve the Steam. And now you can show what that conversation can look like as the client effectively having the conversation. So let's start off, Nancy, first by painting the picture. I've given a few details on what Steve the Steamroller is like, but I'd like you to paint a more horrific picture based on some of your experiences and your clients experiences. Give me some characteristics that I can put into play.

Steve the Steamroller never lets women speak. Like, never will be mid sentence. And he will interrupt them, will take a idea and repeat it as his own. So, for example, if I bring up the idea that I think we should only sell dark chocolate in the cafeteria, Steve the Steamroller will not acknowledge it. And then perhaps in the same meeting, perhaps at a future meeting, say, I have an idea. I think that we should not sell dark chocolate in the. We should only sell dark chocolate in the cafeteria. He tends to over explain, particularly when he's talking with women. Not only, but particularly. And as I said, he really interrupts quite a bit to the point that it's distracting for everybody in the meeting and everybody has a problem with it.

Gotcha. Oh, this is gonna be great. Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right. I've channeled my inner Steve here.

So now I'm playing one of my clients. Right. Who's getting.

Yep.

Okay.

Yep, Exactly. And we can kind of riff on the same idea, more or less. And. Yeah, we'll take it from there. So. Great. Let's get started. Nancy, I saw you scheduled this meeting.

Yes. And as soon as the rest of our colleagues get here, we can start the meeting.

Okay. All right. Can you give me an idea of what this is about?

The meeting is about an idea I have that I think would be awesome for the company. I think it'll save us money, get us new clients, and increase the bottom line.

That's nice. And I think most ideas sound really nice at the beginning. Everybody has ideas. I remember when I was young, like you, I used to have a lot of ideas, and not many of them were taken and most of them shouldn't have been. So, yeah, I think it's good that you have those ideas. Just keep them coming. Let's talk through it and see what we can do. So how are you going to make us money, Nancy? Tell me that.

So the idea I have is to expand our portfolio of what we can offer. I've already spoken with the VP of Box.

Our portfolio is already. My thing is, we already sell too many things, Nancy. That's the problem. We have to simplify adding more things to the portfolio, that just leads to problems. Actually, it reminds me of something that I discovered back when I was working at Deloitte in 93. I was just the middle of my career. Ish. And I had this idea to expand the portfolio. I had an opportunity to pitch that to my. To my leader, and he shot me down. He shot me down because he said, young guns like you, you always come in with these new ideas, but you haven't figured out how to do the business the right way the first time, and now you want to change the business.

Well, I'll tell you what, Steve. I think that this time, maybe it won't get. It won't get shot down. If you can give me just a couple minutes to finish my train of thought, that would be great. Are we okay on time? I just want to make sure I'm respectful of your time.

Oh, no, I'm good.

Great. Okay. So as I was mentioning, I think That I found a way. I met with Mike in Ops. I met with Mary in Human Resources. I met with Bob in Strategic Planning, and they actually all agree that if we could add this one service to our portfolio, we would be able to do it without increasing our cost. And in doing so, we would be able to bring on new clients.

Okay. I mean, sounding good. How. How do you think we do this?

So I think the first step is really to get everybody together and to expand a little further.

Who's everybody. Who's. Who's everybody?

Right. So Bob in Ops, Mary in Human Resources, and Mike in Strategic Planning. And I've actually, I invited them to the meeting today. I don't. They. They must be on their way. But I think, Steve, if. If you think that you'd like to explore it a little bit further, which I think you should, I think I really didn't get into the specifics on the numbers in terms of incremental revenue.

Yeah, the number. The numbers are going to be the. The most important thing, Nancy, if I'm being honest with you, because if it makes.

Wait, I know what you're going to say, Steve. If it makes dollars, then it makes sense. Right?

That's exactly.

How did you know?

How did you know I was gonna say it?

We're looking at about 2 million in incremental dollars and cents if we can get this off the ground, so.

Oh, wow. How soon?

Well, as I mentioned, I think we should probably plan to bring the team together, and I'm happy to spearhead that if you'd like. And what I'd like to do is provide you a very quick executive summary. Maybe I can do that weekly, if that's something that you'd like to see weekly. You tell me the level of. Of engagement that you'd like.

Well, I like to be involved throughout the process, so I think that executive summary would be great. And, you know, Nancy, I think it'd be cool to incorporate your. See if there's any way that we can kind of maybe not necessarily implement your idea, but take one of the ideas that I've had and kind of see if what you have could add to that idea. So one of the things that I was actually thinking about was adding just one. Not a ridiculous amount of things, but just one thing to the portfolio, and I think that would be helpful. That's something that I was planning on doing, and I was wondering maybe if you could get with Bob and the other folks from Strategic Planning and HR and talk about how we could incorporate one thing to the Portfolio, Just something else to add maybe 1 or 2 million to the bottom line. I think that would be great, because it sounds like you've been kind of talking about that already, but I had this idea before, and so if you all could run with that, I think that would be cool.

Well, I think absolutely. We can certainly try to incorporate it for the betterment of the team. I think what's important here is that we stay focused on this particular idea. The team's already met on it. We're already in motion on it. So. Absolutely. I think. What is it they say? The high tide lifts the all boats. So if this project gets off the ground. Absolutely. I think it's going to raise the whole team. With your endorsement, I'd love to move forward with the idea as I presented it.

You're good. You're good. I was trying to think of more ridiculous things to say, but I didn't want to border on cartoonish with my approach. So you're good, Nancy, that you handle that really, really, really well. This time, I want you to take the first shot at the analysis. Tell me what you felt, what you saw, what you did.

I'm checking my blood pressure right now because I have to tell you, I am. My heart rate is so high, I don't know how to check it on my watch, but I guarantee you it's up there. I was this close to saying no, but I know I can't. Right? So that's a really good. It's a really good point because I was fuming because I have had my ideas taken before and not necessarily by men, and it's very weak and it's very childish. And by the way, it always bites the person in the end, but it's not fun. So I was really racking my brain trying to think of, how am I gonna get him to not steal this idea? Like, that was very. That was very aggressive of you, Steve. But I felt strongly, you know, I'm not letting somebody know, like, I did the work I met with these people. It's not about me. It's about the team and the work that's already been done. So I think we can add the most value if we stay on this track. Absolutely. What I was trying to say is, of course, Steve, we're going to make sure you look good. That's what I was trying to say. But I'm not turning this whole idea over. No, no. I'm still mad.

Great job. You did a. Listen, you handled yourself exceptionally well. Because I said, okay, interrupt. Steal ideas over Explain. I was like, I got that. I can do that. And you handled it exceptionally well. And so let's break down the things, because I interrupted you several times. Let's talk about, about the impact that had on you, how you felt, and then what your strategy was for that.

Yeah, so I felt myself getting irritated and getting annoyed. And I knew, like, it's almost a little game I play with myself. So because it happens all the time, it's almost like, okay, do your interrupting, that's fine. And I know I'm going to get to my point, and I know that I'm going to get what I need from this conversation. So you can interrupt me as many times as you want as long as I can continue to make my point. So my job there is to understand it's going to happen, not get emotional about it. Because had I said, excuse me, Steve, if you just let me finish my sentence, which is what I wanted to say, that would have shut Steve down and that would have been adversarial and I wouldn't have gotten my point across. But instead I was kind of placating and okay. And okay. But I wasn't getting steamrolled. I was at every time saying, yes, I understand. Haha. Back to my point. So I really had to check myself to not get emotional. And this was a role play. Like, imagine when the stakes are really high, it's emotional. So, you know, you just have to de. You have to take it down.

Yeah, take it down a notch. Right. And here's the thing, because me talking as Steve in this moment, I would have loved it if you would have gotten a little bit aggressive or upset with me. I would have absolutely loved it because I'm the steamroller. This is my territory. And it reminds me of this saying, you never wrestle with a pig because both of you are going to get muddy. But only one person is going to like it. Right? It's like, okay, this is great. We want to have an awful argument. This is absolutely fantastic. I've been creating that for decades, you know, and so you don't want to get into that territory because number one, it's going to take you away from your goals. Number two, you're not going to enjoy it. You're going to feel bad even if you are successful in doing that. And it's just going to make it less likely that you're going to have career success in this role, because now you've created an enemy when you didn't need to. And there are other ways that you can advocate for yourself and make sure that your voice is heard without being combative. And of course, you could say, but they started it. That again, it's a difference between fault and responsibility. It might be their fault, but it's still your responsibility to comport yourself in a way that puts you in the best position to succeed in the conversation.

Right. It doesn't matter. Right. You can be happy or you can be. Right. Right. I'm sure you've heard that expression before, particularly in a marriage, but you can be, you know, so I can either. I can either be right and tell Steve what I really think, or I can get my point across. That's going to catapult my career. It's going to put me on the map, and I'm probably going to end up soaring over Steve. And that has happened to me in my career. I had bosses that took my ideas and they ended up coming back to me looking for jobs down the road. The cream rises to the crop and to the top. And that really, I think people need to remember that.

Yeah. And let's talk about stealing the idea, because you said it. It was quite aggressive, and I felt slimy even doing that one. I've done a lot of horrible things in these sparring sessions, but I think that was one of the grossest. After chastising you for the idea and then hearing how good the idea was and then saying, actually, even though before I said, don't add to the portfolio, I'm going to say, you know what? I've been thinking about adding to the portfolio. So let's just take my idea. You color it right in that moment. I would be interested to hear your level of emotionality at that moment, because I know I was already testing you. I'm assuming the temperature went up a little bit and. And talk us through how you were strategizing that response in that moment.

So first was the realization that, oh, okay, he's trying to take my idea. And I had to calm down a little bit and just reassure myself that, okay, well, that's not going to happen. So that's off the table. Right. The outcome of this conversation is not going to be, hey, Steve, sure, take my idea and take all the credit. That's just not going to happen. And then, then I wanted to clarify and get him to say it a couple other ways to make sure I understood correctly, because perhaps I misunderstood. Maybe he wasn't really saying that. And then the last piece was to firmly but politely say, I understand what you're saying. I think the direction to go is this direction. This was me saying, this is what I'm willing to do, Steve. Take it or leave it in a nice, nicer way, hopefully. But I understand what you're saying. I think the best path forward would be to do this. If I have your endorsement, let's move forward, because that's not going to happen.

Yeah. Oh, this is good. Because it's cool for me being on the receiving end, too, because you notice at the end, there was a little bit of hesitation, because for me, what I was trying to do is I was trying to find an opening. I was trying to find an opening to still steal. Your idea is what was happening. But. But you addressed it and summarized what I said so thoroughly, and then you closed the book on that so conclusively that even Steve the steamroller could not find a justification to get back in there. And again, I think one thing that people don't realize is that, again, I don't want to think about it in terms of blaming the victim, but we have to realize that our behavior sometimes invites some of the bad behavior in. Here's what I mean. For me, as a negotiator, I'm trained to look for weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Of course, we've talked the way that I do this podcast, not the sparring sessions, but the actual podcast. That's the way I negotiate. But I'm listening to hear what the person just said and how they said it. They didn't say it with a lot of confidence. And so even though they put up a wall, I think that I can still push them. I heard some vulnerability there, so I'm going to respectfully push. A lot of times, if you're not conclusive with the way that you're closing the door, what the person hears is there's still a chance. And so with the way that you close the door on that so thoroughly, I couldn't find a way in, and I didn't even bother trying.

Yeah, I think a lot of people might have said in that situation if they were me, oh, I don't know if that's such a good idea or no. I mean, not really, or. You have to be firm, and you can be firm and kind at the same time. You don't have to. I don't think I sounded too strident. I think I was, and I said it with a smile on my face. Oh, I know. I don't. I think this is really the best path for us to go. Would you like to go forward? Yes or no? Do you want to go forward? On this path because we're not going forward on that path. So I think you're right. I think it's a really good point. And that's what I see a lot of women do because they're a little bit more intimidated. And I was. I was nervous, and because I didn't, you know, I was nervous and I was anxious, but I was not going to back down. I was not. So I. And I knew that. And I think that's the difference is I knew that.

Yes.

Okay.

And Nancy, this is a really big point too, because one of the things you mentioned earlier was, okay, I see what he's trying to do. And so I know that I am not going to let that happen. And so we have to realize that self defense, our ability to defend ourselves, it is completely our responsibility. Steve, the steamroller is now here to protect you, Nancy, you have to protect yourself. And it's really empowering because the reality is I have choice. I am feeling pressure, but I still have a choice. And so one of the things that we talk about in negotiation all the time is never trade value for emotion. Right? And so the emotion comes in different ways. I might be getting really upset, so you give me something to placate me, or you might be feeling pressure, and so you make a concession in order to take the pressure off of yourself. But at the end of the day, we have a choice. And a lot of times the bad things that happen in these negotiations happen because we let them happen. We can't. A bad deal doesn't happen unless you say yes. And so once you realize, hey, no matter what happens, I've got my own back, and I'm not going to let that happen in this conversation. That's empowering. It doesn't make the conversation necessarily easier, but it allows you to operate with a lot more confidence, knowing that at the end of the day, it's still in my hands.

Exactly. That wasn't going to happen. The other thing I do really quick is, you know, I'm not. I try to d. I can't think of the word. So when you were playing Steve, I'm like, in my head, Steve's a clown. Like, I've dealt with a thousand Steves in my day, right? Like, okay, Steve. Yep, we know. So it's, you know, they're gonna act like that. I just don't take it seriously. I take my job seriously and I take the outcome seriously. But when somebody starts behaving that way, it's like, it's nonsense. It's nonsense to Me. So when Steve started trying to steal my idea. That's ridiculous. He's not going to steal my idea. So it almost makes it, like, almost playful for me, like, yeah, okay. And that helps me just kind of have some fun and be myself and get my authenticity back and not really, really worry about it, because that this is a joke. Like, this is not going to happen. Steve's a joke. So I'm not saying to go into your negotiations thinking that the person you're negotiating with is a joke, but if you're facing a bully at work and you're trying to advocate for yourself, they are. And you need to figure out how, in your mind, you can, like, de. Emphasize how much power that. Take the power away from them. Steve had no power in that conversation. None. Steve, you can take my idea or you can leave it.

There you go. Yeah. So simple. And let me highlight one last thing, too, because when I was stealing your idea, as you stopped to clarify, because let me give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's not trying to steal my idea. Oh, yes, he is. Okay, cool. Now I know for sure. When we think about clarification, we think about it usually simply in terms of deepening our understanding for the sake of effective communication. That is just one of the many benefits of clarification. One of the reasons I clarify a lot other than just for the sake of deepening my understanding is time. I want more time. And so I will ask questions and clarify to give myself time. And if, especially if somebody has said or done something offensive and my blood pressure has risen to a boiling point, I say, oh, you know, the Kwami of this very moment is not emotionally equipped to respond in a way that is sensible. So I am going to ask these questions. Essentially, I'm going to pause the conversation, and I'm going to give myself the time I need to recover and determine what I'm going to do or say next. Because usually I don't know, especially if I'm flustered. So I'll ask those questions, and I'll clarify. And then one of my favorite things to do is say, you know what, Nancy? You just said a lot. Give me one second. Let me take some notes, and I will leave them in silence for 10 or 20 seconds as I take my notes. I might not even be writing anything, Nancy. I'm just trying to calm down, and then I'm going to come back with a little bit more focus, usually with a question that is geared towards leading them off of that point. But again, clarification has A lot of benefits. And just slowing down the conversation through clarification is one of them.

Totally agree. Absolutely. The pause is one of the most underestimated communication tactics, I think, in the world. Just take a second. Take a second for everybody.

Exactly. Oh, this is good. This is good. And I know what a lot of people are saying. They're saying, nancy, if only you had a book, if only you had a podcast or a consultancy where I could work with you, could you help them?

I can. So I have a book. It's called Unmute Yourself and Speak up to stand out. It's on Amazon, it's on Audible, it's in hardcover, it's in paperback. It's. That's all the things I think. And then I have a podcast which got launched today called Unmute Yourself the podcast. Right now it's on Spotify. I would imagine in a few days. Few days it'll be on Apple. And I love talking to everyone. So right on my website, there's a button. Nancymedoff.com M E--O-F F.com you can click a call. You can click to set up a call.

Fantastic, Nancy. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

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