Speak Truth to Power! How to Develop Braveness And Face Power With Alex Barker

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Alex, thanks for joining us, my friend.

The pleasure's all mine, Kwame. I mean, you're an old friend. We go way back, so getting to do this with you is just a blast.

Absolutely. And it's been too long. It's probably like four years since you've been on the pod. So let's do an introduction, a reintroduction.

I totally forgot. That's right. It's been that long. Wow.

That's crazy. That's crazy.

So much has changed. That's crazy.

Yeah. So tell the listeners what's new.

Well, I am a career coach, company founder. I run a pharmacist company called the Happy PharmD. PharmD just stands for Doctorate of Pharmacy. We transform pharmacists lives by helping them really love life and their careers again, getting them into jobs they absolutely love. And four years, I mean, that's insane. It was just me back then. Now we have a team of like 20 some people. We have white papers, reports, research. I mean, and back then you and me were hustling, we're growing our companies. And now, I mean, you're on the TED stage. You've done so many cool things and so, oh man, it just feels good to kind of reflect on where we've come from. This is going to be fun.

I wish the podcast listeners could maybe you hear our smiles, but our smiles look even dorkier when you actually see the video. Because I remember when we first started and we were in our mastermind group, a major part of the conversations we were strategizing about. It wasn't just the business strategy, it was strategizing about how we can get our family members to stop thinking we're crazy. And, hey, Alex, just be a pharmacist and make money. Kwame, just be a lawyer and make money. And so I'm glad we stayed to the plan, and I'm glad to see it working out for both of us. So this is great. And you're on the brink of something really exciting because listeners, Alex is starting to do more public speaking. And the focus of today's episode is being brave enough to speak truth to power. And I think this is something that a lot of people can identify with as a struggle because there are things that we want to say, but if we don't feel safe to say it, then we don't say it and problems persist. So when you think about that whole concept of speaking truth to power, Alex, what does that mean to you?

For me, it comes from a place of being vulnerable to admit that, number one, I'm in a culture where the problem persists. And because I'm a part of it, I've both committed the acts of causation. Right. I've contributed to the problem. But at the same time, I want to point to the fact that the entire system that we have is corrupt. And boy, I hate even admitting that there's a problem outside of myself that I can't solve. So I even kind of cringe at the idea of saying, like, hey, you guys are. You're contributing to this problem and I want you to change. I want you to do some. I want you to be better. So it's kind of nerve wracking to admit, number one, that I want to tackle this. I want to try to speak this truth and not be combative. I use your concepts a lot in negotiation about getting curious about how we can solve the problem together. And it's a little nerve wracking to think about how to talk about it in a way that invites them into the conversation versus singling them out and alienating me from them. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Absolutely. This is great for a number of reasons. So first of all, again, for those of you listening through the podcast, once we get this on YouTube, you'll be able to see this. I think it's important to just kind of take a step back to and address how uncomfortable you are with this, because this was the first time I started, I saw you exhibit that type of body language, like pulling away from. From the screen, leaning back.

Yeah.

They're having these self pacifying behaviors of rubbing your Hair, taking deep breaths and ending it by covering your mouth. Which means that there's more that you want to say, but you're intentionally holding back. There are. You're visibly uncomfortable with even the concept, too. But. But I think one of the things that you outlined that was really interesting was the fact that in speaking truth to power, you are admitting your powerlessness. Because if it was a situation that you could just solve the problem. Boop. You just solved the problem. You handle it yourself. But the reason why you're speaking truth to power is because you recognize that the people with the power are the people who need to make the change. But if they are able to have the power to make the change and make the situation better, you understand that if you approach it in the wrong way, they also have the power to make things worse. Specifically for you.

Many years ago, I wrote an article that called out associations. And not in a huge way, but it was like a paragraph of my article. I don't even remember what it was about. And at a conference, I met with an executive from one of these associations, and he was ever so temptingly dangling opportunity in front of me. And he mentioned, you know, if you want to move forward with us with this, you need to change that article. You need to change what you said. And it kind of opened my eyes to how things happen at a bigger scale for bigger businesses, where we see this all the time now, especially with the social justice movement, we see companies making major decisions based on criticism. Right. From a small portion of their audience. I'm not judging whether that's right or wrong. And in a small way that happened to me, someone with power critiqued what I said and basically said, if you do this, if you change what you said then will potentially give you an opportunity. And by the way, that opportunity never happened. So what a stinker, right?

Yeah.

And so I bring that pain with me into this present moment. I recognize I've got some really awesome cool stuff in the works. And in order for it to be impactful, I recognize their power and authority over me. And if I wanted to make the.

Impact.

I want them to walk alongside me to try to change things for the better. Which means, I think, ah, here's the real issue, Kwame. I can't be myself. At least, I feel like I cannot be myself in that relationship because Alex is a little brash. Alex doesn't always think before he speaks. And when you have power, you have to be very careful about what you say in a public way. You have to be careful to not Offend people, not to hurt people's feelings. And I have a history of valuing sometimes people's laughter over their feelings. So I walk this type rope without fun or ease. I feel like.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year. If you think, think you might want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. Yeah, no, this makes sense. And, and listeners, you're probably getting a vibe from this episode that is not a typical episode where like, here's the problem, here's the solution, and then we prance off, you know, everything's great. That's not this. The vibe of this episode. Because a lot of this is going to be kind of troubleshooting. Because I think a major takeaway we have to have is that the solutions that we give you in this episode never guaranteed to work. That's just how it is with every episode. There's nothing that we can do to guarantee success, but there are things we can do to increase the likelihood of success. And there's going to be a bit of like a, almost like a conversational coaching ish aspect to this, because we're workshopping right here, live, asynchronously. There's a medium. Right. So a couple of things that you mentioned there, I want to really home in on here, are first the authenticity, the issue of authenticity, and then also offending and not hurting people's feelings. I want to focus on those two things because whenever we persuade and have difficult conversations, it's important for us to be authentic. And so we don't want to edit ourselves in a way that infringes on the authenticity. But we understand that sometimes we need to edit ourselves for strategic purposes. So how do we toe that line? And I think the calculation is going to be different for different people. And so I think if you look back on your words and actions and you feel shameful or you feel as though you conceded a part of yourself or a belief that is integral to who you are, then I think that is a concession that you can never make because you need to be who you are. At the same time, I recognize that I need to edit myself from time to time based on the situation and circumstance. So, for instance, you and I were both married. We're both professionals. We're both fathers. So Whitney has used the word lawyer, and believe it or not, it was pejorative in our conversations. She's like, you sound like you're lawyering me right now. Lawyer used as a verb is never a good thing, especially if it's coming from your wife. Right. But I can be authentic as a lawyer. I can be authentic as a husband. But authentic lawyer Kwame probably shouldn't show up in my conversations with my spouse. So I think it's finding those parts of ourselves that are true to you and editing it ever so slightly for the circumstance, I think that's important. The other thing is the afraid to offend because old people pleaser. Kwame, that's something that he had trouble with, too. And he is still back there, still trying to be heard every once in a while. And I think when we think about it in terms of offending people and not hurting people's feelings, I think that we should make sure that our goal should never be to offend or hurt people's feelings. But we also have to accept that sometimes when we are speaking the truth, we will, as a byproduct of that, offend and hurt people's feelings. But we can't be responsible for their emotional state. But we should try to approach it in a way that does not unnecessarily trigger those negative emotional responses. Because sometimes there's really no way to accomplish what we want to accomplish without offending or hurting to a certain extent.

Have you found that it gets easier and easier with practice? I've found that to be true with my team, anyway. But not so much the public.

100%. 100%. And again. And I'm sure you're like this, too. It never becomes easy. It's not like, oh, hey, speak the truth to power and hurt people's feelings. That felt great. Give me more of that. It never got to that point. But I think one of the things that I've been. That's been helpful for me in the business world as a leader is recognizing that I really only have one responsibility, just one. And it's just to make the best business decision. And sometimes the best business decision requires making hard decisions, hurting people's feelings, and disappointing people. And so then I Start focusing on their feeling, and I start to feel guilty for that. But then I ask myself the simple question, what was the best business decision given the circumstances? If I know it was that, then it helps to calm me down. And so I think it's just how many times I have to coach myself and say that to myself after I do what needs to be done, that's the change. But as long as I get it done, it becomes a little bit easier because I realize, oh, hey, I'm still alive. They're still alive. The world didn't fall apart and things got better because I made the right move.

I've had to learn the hard way, too, with running a company that the company's best interest is not always each individual people. I'm actually going through that problem right now, and I have found that the temporary pain of communicating it always is outweighed by the benefit later. And I feel like what this conversation is really about is me coming to face to face with this pain of being willing to be a voice that invites, I don't want to say my opposition, but invites those at the power table, as it were, to a conversation and to persuade them to think a little bit differently for the benefit of hundreds of thousands of people. I mean, millions actually, now that I think about it. And getting curious about how to do that is a little scary, I guess. I haven't come face to face with it yet.

Mm. Yeah. And now's the time. Yeah. And I think, again, coming to terms with the fact that there's no way to make this feel good is an important step in the process, because a lot of times, if we don't come to that conclusion, we'll start to search for strategies that feel good, and we'll be searching in perpetuity because that strategy doesn't exist. It's one of the tricky ways that our fear keeps us stuck in place because we say, oh, I haven't found that easy way to do it yet. So I'm just going to keep on searching. And then we search for years, and then we die.

And the old Alex wants to Teddy Roosevelt this, You know, just bring a large stick and just start hacking away at things. But he was able to do that when he was the president, Right. No more powerful man in the United States than him. I'm not the president. Not yet. I don't want to be, but not yet. I can't rush into the jungle of my industry with a giant stick. I have to approach them with a map and invite them to figure out a Way out of this jungle, this predicament that our entire industry is in.

When you think about the predicament, do the people who are in power agree with you that it is, in fact a predicament?

They see the problem. They understand that pharmacists, by and large, are burned out, are experiencing widespread dissatisfaction.

And.

From my point of view, the solutions that they are providing are not adequate. I've been harsher before in my speaking engagements that we need some drastic things done. And that's okay, that's okay. But I have to invite them into conversations and be a part of the solution and say, look, this is good. Hey, you've made a step. You've acknowledged the problem, which is the first step to fixing it. But the solutions that we're trying are, in my opinion, doing more harm than good. So they've acknowledged that there's a problem, but I want to redirect them. I want to redirect them to better solutions.

Do you all agree on the destination? So we understand, like, where we are right now, we're having a problem. Do you all agree on what the ultimate end goal looks like? Hmm.

I think so. They would use different words, but I think. I think they. They see pharmacists. I think many people in power are influenced by those in power in the industry, right? So I'm talking about, like, associations. I think many of them are influenced by the people with a lot of power and money and donation money. And. And I think that pharmacists, by and large, are seen as a commodity, something to be used. And I think that trickles down to the solutions that are being provided. What I want to see happen is pharmacists being able to really do what they want to do, which is care for patients, care for people, help others. And sadly, there's so many roadblocks in their way to doing that. I don't know if they see that as the solution.

It's interesting. Okay, that's good to know. That's good to know. And so I'm going to ask a question that will seem kind of obvious, and then I'll ask a question that would be less obvious. So question number one. So the people who you are identifying as those with power, the people and the organizations that you identify as those with power, how do you know that they have power?

They are on the boards of pharmacy. They are the executives of major organizations and associations. And those groups put forth policy and legislation that influences the entire profession. And not all, not all policies and things are bad. But I would argue Many things have been produced lately that's causing a negative effect.

So.

And in some ways as well, it's also caused inaction. So that's how I would say I know they have power.

Yep. So summarizing here, so it sounds like a lot of them have institutional power. So they come from large, let's say corporations. They also have power in terms of numbers. So they're associations that have large memberships. Board of pharmacy. So that's kind of like a quasi governmental type of organization. And then also in terms of lobbying, that's a combination of money and political power and legal power. Right? Yeah, that's a lot. You're a brave man. That's good. Okay, so now here's the question that's less obvious. Where does your power come from?

I would love to say it's my authority and my knowledge and expertise on the subject. However, you know this, when you're an expert on something, you often discredit yourself pretty quickly. Right? Well, I'm not that good. I'm not that great. I would say, though, that my power does come from the impact that I've had on the world. At the moment when I'm feeling down and lonely, I look at my thank you cards, I look at the things wives and husbands have said about our clients. I think about the families and the children's lives that I've made better. And I would say we, in a small way, have changed the online conversation within our industry in many ways. I have seen, I've observed amazing, amazingly intelligent, capable people who finish doctorate level programs who are totally capable of becoming astronauts or, or PhD people. And I've seen them become whittled down by the awful constraints of the work systems to the point where they don't feel worthy to do anything else but the job that they've had. And they're terrified of trying anything new. And I've observed those people transform into authorities in their own right. I've seen them join the boards of pharmacy or lead associations and do amazing things with their newfound, I guess, confidence, really.

Okay, this is good. So summarizing here. So we have your knowledge and credibility in the industry. You have the massive impact that you've had, you and your team have had on the lives of people that you've worked with. And then I think if I were to roll this up, I think I'd refer to the works of Cialdini. And then I'll blend it with Aristotle too. If we're thinking about influence by Cialdini. Some people call him the Godfather. Of persuasion. Great book. He was a guest on the podcast. Forget about that. Yeah, he was a guest on the show. Yeah, I forget because I didn't interview him. I said Shane said he wanted to get him on the podcast. I was like, listen man, if you get Cialdini, you interview him. And then he got Cialdini. Oh man. Okay, so that's an example of a bad deal. So one of the things he talks about the seven different principles of persuasion or influence and a couple of things are standing out to me. So we have authority and we have social proof there too. So with social proof we're thinking about the wisdom of crowds. So the more people that agree with one thing, the more credibility the person who says it has. So I think you have a growing audience of people who are carrying the message with you. And for you too. The other thing is authority, because when you talk about knowledge and credibility, I think it's easy, especially as professionals, to rely on our degrees. So you have the doctorate, you're a pharmacist, those type of things. Everybody in your field is a pharmacist. Okay, so it's not special in that field. Right. But what is special is that you focus on the mental health of pharmacists. You are a pharmacist who focuses on the mental health of pharmacists. So not just mental health in terms of, we think about it as like, hey, you don't have a disorder, you don't have a problem, an identifiable problem. You're trying to take them not just back to baseline, but beyond that, Happy pharmd. Right. So that's an interesting distinction. There are probably few in the field who have that specific focus. So when it comes to the well being of pharmacists in that narrow realm, then you are one of maybe a handful, if any, you might be one of one. And so that is a source of true authority because nobody else can say that they do that. And you're not just doing that based on feelings and opinions. You have case studies of successful people, many thank you cards. Not just from the people, but their families too, which matters. And then also you're creating research on that which is pivotal. Then referring to Aristotle, a bit of a throwback. So we think about the persuasive triad of ethos, logos and pathos. I think a lot of times professionals, we like to focus on logos, which appeals to logic, very tempting, but not as persuasive. We have to have a blend. And so you have pathos, passion, the emotion and so the stories that you tell are full of that. And then ethos, the ethics of it. Like, the reason why. Why is this so important? Like, this is vitally important. There's never been a question of whether or not farmers could. Pharmacists can do what we want them to do is whether or not they can have, like, they can be well and happy while doing it. And so I think if you take some time and think about it just a little bit more objectively and take a step back, because you live with you every day, and so you don't realize how special you are in the industry, you have a lot more power than you think.

My business coach says the same thing. I probably should start believing her when I consider all of the data we've collected, the success stories, but also just that this is the right thing to do. It does get me excited. It gets me very passionate about the problem. And sometimes with my passion comes a brazen attitude. You know, a very. I'm going to show you the solution, and you can't do anything about it. You know, what you say is wrong. And I'm getting to the point now where we will be publishing something that will be, I believe, foundational to the future of our profession. And I think everyone will want to use it. I think it's going to shake the industry up. And what I'm. I think what I'm actually afraid of is the magnifying glass, the public scrutiny, the academic scrutiny, the pain of that, and knowing that people are gonna all of a sudden tear me apart. And, I mean, you and I know this. You can't build anything without haters. And I think. I think I need to change my perspective on these haters and figure out how to invite them into the conversation to make the product better, to. To make myself and the business better.

Hmm. I'm hearing a bit of a breakthrough here. I think that's.

Yeah, yeah. It's really easy to think about business as, like, adversarial, right? Like, it's us versus them. It's us, the underdog, the rebels against the Empire. And we love being Luke Skywalker. I want to be a Jedi. I mean, that's what it comes down to. But at the same time, it's scary to go up against the superpower and to. And to. It's. It's probably, perhaps wrong to think that they are the enemy that needs to be defeated, because I don't mean to do that, but I think I do.

You know, I think you have to start to reconceptualize some of These things that are holding you back. So, for example. I'll give an example. We were talking about the TED Talk earlier. One of the things I appreciate about the program in Dayton that I did was that it was really robust. People ask why the TED Talk was so good. I say, I mean, I had no choice. They would have cut me before I stepped on stage if it wasn't good. So it was weeks, like, months and months of preparation. Not just like on the content side, but just mentally helping you to get in the right mindset. And so there was one person who went through the program, one of the previous years, and he was really proud of it. He's a gay male. And he said that one of the comments was, wow, he sounds so gay. And he was devastated. Just devastated. He was so proud of it. Sending it out to his family, friends, and then.

That's harsh.

Yeah. So when I put out my TED Talk, I knew that criticism was coming. So I worked really hard to get myself in the right mindset for it. And so I remember a few days after it went live, and it was starting to get a lot of traction, and I was looking at the comments. The comments were really, really positive for the most part. But I knew something bad was going to come. And so there it was. The N word appeared. But in the weeks, this is the great part about it, Alex, because I knew that I could handle it. That's not the problem. I'm used to that. I knew it would be my family that would be hurt. And so leading up to it, I kept on getting them ready, like, this is going to be good. It's going to be good. And so I reconceptualized it for that. When we hear that word, that's how we know it's good. That's how we know it's good. And so I remember when I saw it, the response was completely different. I started laughing. I started laughing, and I excitedly brought Whitney up. I was like, whitney, here it comes. I told you we were going to get it. I told you we were going to piss people off. And this is how we know we did it. So the thing is, if you want to have the impact, you have to be ready.

I can't relate. Being a white guy cracker just doesn't compare the. Okay, I made you laugh. That's a good sign. The worst thing that's been said about me is that they said you shouldn't be able to talk until you grow a beard and move out of your mom's basement, which is kind of Funny, because at one point in time, as an adult, I did live in my mom's basement before buying my house. So I was like, hey, I've already got your beat. So I couldn't grow a beard at the time. Yeah, man. Do you feel like. Do you feel like it's a constant battle for you knowing that that's going to be the case, or do you feel like it's an up and down sort of thing where you know to expect it, but it hits you harder at different times?

Yeah, it's. It's truly up and down. Depends on the circumstance. So, like, I know when I'm on the brink of something big, I know that that's what makes it more likely. And what's so funny, Alex, is that, like, when. When it happened, like, when it actually happened, like, I was legit excited. Like, I wasn't playing around. Like, I was pumped. Whitney and I were like, well, like, there it is. We were laughing. I was like, I'm going to enjoy flagging this boop. You know, like, genuinely take a screenshot. I did not. I should have. I should have. But I don't. I don't know. It's a weird emotional thing because this is the first time I'm getting emotional about it. And I think it was not because it cause it. Like when I say it didn't hurt at the time, it literally didn't hurt. But when I think about my friend telling the story about his experience and it would hurt him. So, like, the pain that's coming up, rehashing this experience isn't for me. I felt fine. I still feel fine about it because it's still a victory for me because I want to be irritating the right people. So I was like, hey, this is good, you know? But I knew that he didn't have the benefit of a him before him, so he wasn't protected.

And I imagine, you know, now that you're a father as well, like that plays a role in all of this too, right? I mean, gosh. What? I don't want to deviate too much on the subject, but I feel like we could talk about this for a while. It's so sad what people feel like they have to turn to in order to feel safe, that you were so open and vulnerable on the stage, that you provoked that response from someone who clearly is insecure enough to write public hatred. That is so wild.

Yeah.

It's a different world.

The psychology of it is fascinating, but I really think that for what it is that you're trying to Accomplish. It's a necessary evil. Like, you have to go through it. There's no easy way around it. Yeah.

I think about the backbone that Elon Musk has and just how everyone. I mean, recently he just purchased Twitter. Well, supposedly, we don't know. It's way above my head. Almost bought Twitter and all. Like, half of Twitter is condemning the man. And to, you know, no one starts something amazing thinking, I just cannot wait to make people mad.

Right, right, right.

You start something and thinking, I want to make an impact. I want to make people's lives better after they buy my thing or whatever it is. And it's scary to stand upon the precipice of a cliff, knowing one more step will cause a lot of powerful people potentially to hate you and to hate what you stand for and your message. Because what you say or do will be in direct opposition of what you do or what they do. I should say I've been called out on LinkedIn because of me calling out bad managers. You know, like, we're all about careers. People leave jobs because of managers very typically, and I've been vocal about that, but rightly so. Some. There are good managers out there and they send me messages and be like, hey, man, what are you doing? Like, I'm trying to do a good job over here. And you're over here bashing management. And I'm like, well, yeah, because it's. The majority of you guys keep doing what you're doing, keep being you. But guess what, you're a minority. This has been encouraging to me, and it's been helpful because I think what it's reminded me of is to be authentic to myself, to my message, to my brand, and to say to continue to believe in what we do, that what we create, at the end of the day is life changing. And I want to invite them to a conversation. I don't want to alienate them. It is scary to think about, but I'm ready to jump.

Yeah, man, you can do it. And I think one thing that'll help with the. Because you said sometimes you could be abrasive in the way that you say it, I think one of the things that helps is just removing your ego from it and just saying, I'm not right because I'm right. I'm right because of what the data says. I didn't know this either. And then I found this out, and the data was so compelling that I have no choice but to think differently. And then when they push back, simply say, I used to think the same thing. Too. Until I discovered this. And so like removing yourself, typing that down.

That's so good.

Yes, yes, yes. I'm up on this because I just finished for my second book, how to have Difficult conversations about Race. That's a big one because I talk about the fact that sometimes you can approach this in a way, whatever this happens to be, in a way that is so abrasive and so ego driven that they're like, you know what, Alex made some good points. That data is irrefutable. But I do not like Alex. I'm going to refute him. So it's not even about me being right or Alex being wrong. It is about me making sure that Alex doesn't win. And so you don't want that to be the thing that gets in the way. And I think just saying, like I had no choice but to approach it this way injects that humility that removes the feeling of abrasion, like abrasiveness that they might be feeling. So you get around what I call reflexive rejection where they develop a bias to you. And before they can think about it and process it with their higher level thinking, their amygdala says, I'm going to attack Alex.

I like that. That's useful. Well, thank you. This has been very, very helpful and insightful for me.

Yeah, yeah. No, I appreciate the work that you're doing. And there might be some pharmd's out there who say, I'd like to be happy or people in the medical field too. I know Whitney's a doctor and I know that the people in the medical field in general, they struggle. So before you go, let the listeners know how they can learn more about the amazing work you're doing.

Well, everyone here knows a pharmacist. I guarantee it. The next time you go to pick up your prescription, just look behind the counter and see how they're doing. Just ask them, you doing okay? Because they would appreciate it because they are overworked to the bone. You can, I mean, from all the stuff we're talking about, you may or may not have figured out, I talk about burnout. I talk about the troubles of working in an overstressed system specifically for pharmacists. And what I want to do is I want to give every pharmacist out there a care package. It contains my book, Indispensable, A fulfilling. Edit this out. I forgot the name of my book, actually. No, leave it in Indispensable. In this care package, you can get my book a prescription for a fulfilling pharmacy career plus the audio version of my book as well. The first chapter, I Believe, where I talk about I'm a terrible pharmacist and I talk about the struggles that I went through as well as our pharmacist salary guide to negotiate for your next job. I really want to change my profession. I want to change it because so many pharmacists are struggling with burnout, depression and even suicide. And that shouldn't be for a group of people who really just want to help others. So I would love it if you check out our website and hey, reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn. Love to have a conversation.

Appreciate it. Alex, thanks again for coming on the show. We'll make sure it's not four years again before the next time you come back on.

Sounds good buddy. Thanks for having me.

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