Stop Aiming for Peace. Aim for Good Conflict Instead

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Steve, welcome to the show, my friend.

Thank you. So good to be here. Been looking forward to meeting you.

Yes, likewise. And so how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, a little backstory. I've been interested in peacemaking and the conflict resolution space as almost as far back as I can remember. I grew up in a small town in West Virginia, which was pretty peaceful and homogenous and nice and quiet, but I had images of the Vietnam War and JFK, MLK, like all the turbulence of the 60s was coming in through there. And I. So I had early sense of man, I, you know, I want to do something about what's not right in the world. And, you know, that parlayed into a liberal arts and psychology major, USC Chapel Hill. And I went then to Europe and I lived in Ireland in, in the late 80s, early 90s in. During the times of, you know, when the conflicts there, the troubles, so to speak, were still pretty heightened. Had opportunity to travel in Roman, do some work in Romania in the early days of the Iron Curtain coming down first, you know, some of the first people in after that did work in Zimbabwe and, you know, around the. And also in the aftermath of the war in Yugoslavia and working with Bosnian refugees coming out of that. So I just, I was so privileged to have early experiences that really helped me understand relating to different cultures one and then how to be in conflict spaces, you know, and how to help people navigate, you know, reconciliation healing processes. So that's where it started. And then organizations I work for as well kind of became. I wasn't trying to be a professional facilitator, mediator, conflict person, but I just ended up being a glue person in places I was working, you know, it's just what people do, right? We like to bring people together. There's trouble. I was that approachable person that held, you know, the people trusted to come to and I had an ability to be in the fray, be a peaceful, be a calm presence in a fray, help people relate in a good way and try to find a way forward. So long story short that eventually I thought, wow, there's so many people, especially in the small mid sized business space and organizations that are doing a good thing in the world and there's a ton of friction or they're getting completely derailed because of very solvable people problems. And man, if they had something, you have someone to come in and just serve to help them get through that and get back on mission and accelerate again, then it's a way of multiplying good in the world. So that's what I do now most of my work is with small mid sized businesses, organizations and really like a fractional leadership and organizational development person but with that expertise in conflict to really help people build good conflict skills. But what it could because what is work every day, solving issues, solving conflicts, navigating disagreements, negotiating things. So that's what I do. I love to help people, you know, do a good thing in a world and not get sidetracked by the, by the conflicts, which is tough. It happens all the time.

That's so amazing. Just the richness of your experience. How does that background in those different areas, Zimbabwe, Yugoslav, Salavia in Ireland during the Troubles. How does that color your approach to conflict resolution today?

Probably the biggest thing, one of the earliest things, Ireland was the first place I went and fortunately received some training before I went. And there's just a line that I learned and one of my mentors said, look, enter, go in. As a learner, like they may look like you, they speak English, but it's a very different culture. I was young, you know, wide open, I was up for an adventure. But that was my introduction to things appear a certain way, but you need to listen and pay attention and be curious and learn. That's how you're going to build trust and relationships. So it was just a privilege. I wasn't trying to be smart or learn something, but I got that piece of advice and amazingly I took it to heart. And so I just got curious and you know, just navigating all those different cultures from a standpoint of curiosity and learning rather than defensiveness or comparison, it really helped me. And what happened with that Kwame is I Learned to navigate cultural difference not as a I should do, but as a. Like, it's a better life when there is richness and there is diversity and, you know, interesting people who are different from you. The learning that happens in that environment and the excitement of that. So I was just fortunate, man. From a young age, it wasn't like I had to adapt and learn to be curious or do the right thing by navigating cultural difference. I just, I grew an affection for that and a curiosity. So that to this day is probably the strongest, one of the strongest things that I bring to the table and also something that really energizes my work. I just enjoy it.

Yes. Oh, man. And so, listeners, I want to make sure that you. You caught this. So, Steve, when you responded, you didn't give a tactic per se or a strategy, you gave a mindset.

Yeah.

An ethos. And then proper behaviors flow naturally from the proper mindset. Exactly what leads to the success that you've had in conflict resolution?

Yeah, that's it. It's the approach which it. And honestly makes it more simple, though it's difficult to do if you didn't have early experiences to orient you in that way. So you can learn a ton of complex strategies which are there. But if you don't have the mindset in that, then it's going to be either hard to remember the strategies or it's going to be very difficult to implement. And. But if your mindset is right, as you know, you can mess up on the strategies, no big deal. If your heart is in the right place and you're curious, you're interested, people feel that, you know, you got some humility in the task, then things are going to go better. Even if you're, you know, not great on the techniques.

Yeah. Oh, that's so impressive. Okay. And one of the things that I'm excited to talk to you about today is your framework, your approach to conflict resolution, because like we discussed, you have a rich experience when it comes to conflict resolution. And so I really like seeing people like you in the industry who have so much experience, and then you have a methodology that you use. Can you tell the listeners a bit about that, too?

Yes. So I just call it good conflict and kind of just simple name, because what I found in my experience, and I don't know if part of that is regional in the context that I've been in, but I just encountered a lot of, like, dealing with conflict. The mindset of dealing with conflict. Well, that's unfortunately a necessary evil that we have to do from time to time. But the ideal state would be peace. And I'm like, yes, I agree, the ideal state would be peace, but that's not available to us. So every day in an interdependent world, okay. With imperfect people who have a lot of different ideas about how to go about things and who let each other down, conflict is going to be a part of life every day. So it's just a matter of will you avoid it? Will you deal with it in an unconstructive way, or will you find a way to have good conflict on a regular basis and build skill in that? And so that's the idea of the framework is like, let's learn how to have good conflict and build some confidence in a way to approach.

I really like that because essentially, with the way that you're framing it, you're signaling very hard that, hey, conflict is not bad thing. I really like that. And it's so funny because a lot of the times I feel like I can overthink the approach when I'm thinking about how do I convey the fact that conflict is a positive thing. It's an opportunity. So I love that naming convention. And just a little aside, naming things is really hard. I'm kind of jealous that you came up with something so powerful and so simple because is perfect. I love that.

Yeah. Sometimes the most simple thing. How many iterations did I go through, Kwame, to get to that? Well, let's call a good conflict. I want people to have good conflict years. I'm thinking, I wish people could have good conflict. Let's just call it good conflict. Let's do that.

Brilliant. I love it. Okay. And so we have different elements of good conflict. We have preparation, pathways and progress. Love the alliteration too there. That's good. So when we're talking about preparation, let's just start there. What does that look like?

Starting with the preparation, I look at two things primarily. And one is desires. I call it conscious desires. And the other is flexible stories. Okay. So we'll start with conscious desires. So my assumption presupposition is at the root of any conflict. There's a desire, someone wants something that they didn't get, or they want something they're afraid they're not going to get, or there's a competition over who's. So there's desire. We're desire driven people. Is my assumption kind of worldview there. And so that's getting. You know, if you're going to diagnose any conflict, you got to get down to what does everyone want? And as you know, especially in the midst of conflict, there's a lot of different desires going on. It's not like we just want one thing typically. Okay. And so if I could refer, you know, say a case years ago, which I won't use the names, but I have permission to share, is a. A mom and dad and a daughter and son in law. Son in law comes to mom and dad and says, look, we need some distance. You know, we got some stress in the family. We need some distance. Well, that distance turned into eight years of not communicating. Whoa. After eight years, they're encouraged to find some help and they end up with me. Long story short, you know, in talking with the dad, to illustrate the point, he wants a lot of things, you know, and his. He's like, what happened? He wants to understand, he wants payback. He felt it was unfair. There's a felt, you know, he just kind of feels victimized. You know, he just didn't understand what happened. And he wants to be with his daughter and son. Logan wants to see his grandchildren. So he wants restoration and reconciliation. So I had, you know, and talking with him like, well, what do you want most? What's the lead thing? You know, I want to be restored. If this could possibly be repaired, it would be the greatest thing. Okay. What's going to be at cross purposes with that? Well, I'm angry as well. And if I slip into retaliation or payback or demand an explanation that's going to be at cross purposes with the work, I'm like, you're exactly right. So helping people to be conscious of all the desires that are at play and help them be aware of the choice of which one they're going to highlight and which one they're going to lean into in the moment of conversation. And to be, for me, as a coach and facilitator, to be, you know, to be conscious of, like, what could happen that might trigger that desire, that's at cross purposes of what you really want to do. Just getting people very aware of all the different. The complexity of desires that are in play and help them show up in their best desire, in their best self, so to speak, and help them really do the thing that in their ideal state, they would really love to do in this moment.

So one of the things that I want to do with this, because when we're thinking about preparation, there's so many different ways to prepare.

Yeah.

And so I know that when people were hearing, oh, prep, prepare, it's like, oh, I've heard This hundreds of times on Negotiate anything. I've never heard it like that before though. And I think that's one of the things that's really interesting because everybody has a different methodology. And I love the fact that you talk about cross purposes because I think when you're having a difficult conversation, let's just say individual to individual, there are things that we want and we don't even think about how some of the emotional needs we might have or emotional desires we might have could run counter to the substantive needs that we want. And then we go in just trying to accomplish both at the same time and we're doomed for failure because there's a lack of focus.

Exactly. And to be charitable, usually those things that are cross purposes, they have a reason why they're there. Maybe it's a self protective thing or it's a natural response to parm experience in the past or whatever may. Usually there's a good reason why that's in place and it requires some courage and self discipline to not be driven by that, but really to stay in the intention that is of the highest order in that particular conversation or event.

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Yeah, that's right. So that's why in the preparation is really just an open ended conversation I have. Tell me all the things you want, tell me all the desires that are in play. And so I feel like if I can service them into the conscious because a lot of times we're driven along by things that are subterranean and we're not even consciously aware of it, which that definitely dooms us to failure. So but at least if I can be aware of it and I've named it with the person helping me, then if they see it. They can help me, you know, redirect. Correct. And something like that. So, so I just. Raising that awareness to me of the desire level of what's going on is one of the, you know, biggest keys to success. And yeah, it's not a technique, it's a self awareness. Right.

So, Steve, I'm really thinking about this now too, because I'm. The thing about classic getting to. Yes, interest based negotiation. We want to figure out our interests, we want to figure out the interest of the other side. Imagine people going through that preparation process when we're doing an inventory of our interests and we say to ourselves, what are our conscious interests? Just adding that modifier makes us say that means that there are unconscious interests. And especially as we get more transactional in our negotiations, we're biased towards those conscious interests on what we should be negotiating for. And sometimes we unwittingly undermine those unconscious interests in the process.

That's right. So it's, I guess, a way you could say it is like, don't be your own worst enemy. You know, you've got a conflict to navigate here with other individuals. Don't get in your own way of doing things that you regret later, you know, because it really was not the main thing you came in here for.

Yeah, this is great. And it shows the benefit of bringing in a third party like yourself because sometimes you need somebody else's perspective to see the situation more holistically. And for people who are saying, well, I don't have the luxury of a third party in my little negotiation with my spouse or my colleague at work here in this little conversation, I want you to imagine there's a little Steve in your head asking these questions so you can think it out. Because this is part of the internal negotiation process that's necessary before you engage in a successful negotiation with somebody else.

Right, right. And the other thing I encourage people there is Kwame, there's event preparation. So within any given particular conversation or negotiation, there's preparation for that. But I like to say it's a lifestyle. Start adopting this if you want to get good at conflict. It's the same as developing expertise in any other field. Right. It's about repetitions. It's about having that goal. You know, the science of expertise. Anders Erickson, all that work, you know, like out of the performing arts. My son's a classical guitar major and performer. They need a. You need an uncomfortable goal that you're heading towards. You need good teaching, good, good information, instruction how to get there. You need lots of consistent action. Repetition, you need quality feedback, and you need to sustain the motivation because you're going to have setbacks and bad days and events don't go well. So I'm like, there's event preparation, which is going to be enhanced if you're developing a lifestyle, more mindfulness of the desires that are at play at any day in your life. And so that's. I say, you know, it's like basketball or sports analogies. You know, there's fundamental things that you do. You've got a big game coming up. Well, if you haven't practiced in three months, then you're probably gonna be difficult to really execute well in this moment. But if you have a habit, a daily habit, because pretty sure most days of the week, you're gonna be able to navigate some small thing. If you can do it in practice, so to speak, or lower stake, sit, build that mindfulness in that practice, then you are in a lot better position to execute in those crucial moments where there's a lot more at stake.

Absolutely. And just. It warms my heart to hear somebody appropriately quote Anders Ericsson's study, because Most people say 10,000 hours. That'll do it. Yeah, I'm glad that you outlined those points, because if you don't, then you hit that, what he calls the okay plateau. And then you get to a point where your conflict resolution or your negotiation skills are functional and okay enough to the point where you don't feel motivated to improve. So it's. It is intentional practice with feedback with the goal of improving. So I just want expertly articulated point there. So I appreciate that.

Yeah. Well, and I always have a. An example ready at hand because I mentioned my son. He's a fantastic guitarist. Unbelievable. I play guitar. Kwame and I used to tell people, I play guitar. I strong. I know at least five, six chords. I can play basic pop songs and folk songs. You know, I did that, and he grew up with that. And I've probably played more hours in my lifetime than he has, but those hours stayed at a very particular level. And so that's what I am. He is accelerated because he did that in a way that actually develops expertise. And it's the same thing with conflict skills. You just have to do it. And it's uncomfortable, awkward at first. Do the repetitions, get the good feedback, and you can get better. People say, steve, you're such a great peacemaker. You're gifted in that way. And I'm like, I just worked at it. Anyone can develop these skills. You know, I do it vocationally. That's unusual. But I think human beings have the capacity, with the right inputs and discipline and practice, anyone can become good at this.

Agreed. And I think too, there's a mindset as well, because, yes, you do it vocationally because you are a professional peacemaker. But, yeah, really, when it comes down to it, what. In whatever role we fit in in society, we're professional peacemakers. We're just not good at it if we don't take the time to practice because we're negotiating and resolving conflicts all the time, but if we don't see it as part of what we like, our vocation, then we're not going to really take it with that level of gravity.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I mentioned the second piece of the prep then, is mindfulness around the stories. So we live our lives in stories. Events happen, but they land with different people in different ways. You know, we have a different. Different meanings that we assign to things that have happened. And all. Everyone you're working with in preparation for a conversation and part, you know, in addition to the desires, I'm like, tell me your story of what's going on. Tell me all that you know. How do you interpret all this? Tell me what it means to you? How did it hit you? You're exploring the different narratives that are in play. And then if you can say, well, of all the things you're telling me, what are you most certain? And where could you put some question marks? Where are there some assumptions in play? What are you most sure of? And where could you be curious? You know, back to, like, curiosity is going to help you a lot in this situation. And the thing I remind people, when you're in the realm of observable things that happen or things that are documented, then there's a level of certainty that's accessible. The closer you get into judging motivations and the intentions of someone's heart and what's in their head like, then definitely there should be question marks. That's where you can explore, because it feels like they intended to hurt you. Well, maybe, maybe not. Let's explore that. You don't have to reject that story in order to enter the conversation. But if you could put a question mark there and we could explore that, you might learn, get some new data that would help you adjust that in a way that would really ease tensions. So awareness, mindfulness of the story, and where can we put some question marks so that we can have some dialogue and actually some back and forth to really explore ways that if the narrative shifts, then the relationship shifts? And new possibilities open up.

Bingo. Yeah. When you change your story, you change your life. When you change the story, it changes your conflicts, too. And I really think it's important, especially for us, who are in business negotiations, too, who we have, to manage conflict during the negotiation process. And we usually think about it in terms of what happened. What are the facts of the case? As a lawyer, we always talk about the facts of the case. And it's really important to recognize that you said the stories, because everybody has a story. And as much conviction as you have in the certainty of your story, other person has the same level of conviction in theirs. And I think for me, when I was mediating, that was one of the most fascinating revelations, because I go and I talk to one side, I was like, well, this is an open and shut case. This. This person's an angel. The other person is clearly a demon. I better watch my back when I go talk to them. And then I was like, wait a second. They both seem like angels. What. What's happening here?

Yeah, and it happens all the time. Like, you know, it's. It's not about expertise. Like, this happened just yesterday with me working with a client. I was working with a head of a management team, and we had both been in a meeting with a couple of the owners, and we walked away from the meeting. We debriefed the next day, and he was like, what'd you think of the meeting? I was like, not awesome, but this and this were good. Like, it's okay, you know, considering. And he just. He thought it was terrible. He just thought it was a. You know, just. He was so disappointed in the meeting. So we had very different experiences of the exact same event, same conversation. But he and I, you know, because we're. We understand good conflict and how to negotiate that. It wasn't an argument over who was right. Was the meeting good or bad? It was like, wow, this is interesting. Like, we experienced this very differently. Let's explore that. And we spent an hour unpacking why it landed in different ways with each of us. And we got a lot of insights out of that. And that's. You know, this happens all the. There's opportunity for this all the time, if you're aware and you're looking for it. And the learning that can happen when you approach it that way is just amazing.

This is really important. It goes back to what we were talking about with mindset, too, because you had a situation there where somebody had a different perspective, and you responded with, this is interesting. That triggered curiosity and Then you learned of their perspective. The other approach would be a right versus wrong binary approach, that the wrong perspective and that leads to defensiveness and bad conflict.

Yeah, exactly. And I gotta give a lot of credit, David Anderson Hooker at Kroc Institute for Peace, Notre Dame. But he did two summers in a row. He did a. He did workshops at Duke. There was a summer institute for reconciliation, which I attended two years in a row. And I did his workshop on narrative mediation the first year. And it was so good, so powerful for me, and transformative, really, in my work, this whole business of narratives. I really underappreciated up until then. And so I came back the second year, did the whole thing. So I really give a lot of credit to him of introducing me to the power of narrative in conflict. And one of the quotes I remember is there are many legitimate ways to describe the meaning of a complex thing. And so when you realize it's not an argument over whose story is right and whose story is wrong, most of the time, you know, if there's a disputed fact, okay, that's a different thing. But meaning and how it lands, the emotions evolve. Many legitimate ways to describe the meaning of a complex thing, and you got a complex conflict. There's a lot of ways to understand that and to deploy empathy, understand the different experiences involved. And if you resort to arguments over whose story is right and whose story is wrong, like if you define success as arriving at a unified shared narrative, you're never going to win that game. And so you have to expand your range of meanings that are accessible to you. And within those range of meanings, how can we find solutions and a way forward, given that there's not a world in which we will ever acknowledge we experience this thing in the same way, and there's an absolute right or wrong to that.

Brilliant. That is absolutely brilliant. And I think that's a great opportunity for us to segue to pathways as well. So when we move into phase two, what does that look like?

Yeah, so I'll be a little more brief on that because really, the foundational thing of these mindsets and how you come into it, but two things in pathways, I talk about clear design and a constructive connection. So it's just a lot of, you know, just giving care to framing up the conversation, agreement ahead of time. This is what we're going to try to accomplish here. Here's how the conversation is going to go. Just giving some structure to it. So it's not a free for all. So really, some intentionality of designing the conversation and that's where, as a third party, you can really help with that and you get into constructive connection, which is the things that are more commonly talked about in conflict resolution, negotiation. That's the empathy, the good listening skills, the curiosity, asking good questions, speaking from first person and not leading with accusation and assigning motives and things to people. So I'll spend less time on that because it's probably more familiar, you know, for your audience on this show. But those things. So that's why, like. So those things are still very important. There needs to be a framework and some guardrails and safety. Create as much safety as you can in the structure of the conversation so that, you know, you have a chance of executing on the good things that you want to do and then definitely deploy those skills. You know, listen well. Like, don't be framing your answer before you understand where the other person's coming from. Really. You know, helping people understand empathy does not mean agreement. You can be empathetic and understand where someone is coming from without implying that you agree with their point of view or share that at all. We don't appreciate the differentiation of that a lot of times. So. So that's those basic skills which are talked about a lot on your show and you're very familiar with, but those things are still important. So I don't want to disregard that. But that's part of the pathway. That's how you. That's the structure of how you get it done and the skills that you deploy in the moment to have a good conversation. So that's why I say it's a pathway. It doesn't happen by magic. There's a structure, and there are things you can do to make that go better than if you just dive in and hope for the best.

Well, I think that's why it's so important go through it in this way, because it's important to talk about the fact that empathy and curiosity and that constructive connection will happen. But a lot of times people might just listen to the podcast and they're like, okay, cool, I've got this bag of tricks here, and I'm going to just jump into the middle of the conflict and hope a little bit of empathy is going to get me across the finish line. And this helps us to see just how much intentionality goes into creating the environment where we can have constructive connection. This is great. And when you're talking about clear design, let's make this really practical for the everyday negotiator and who's having difficult conversations with family, friends, colleagues, or business negotiations. I remember when I was mediating, people look at you kind of like as the authority to a certain extent. And so you can say, all right, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to do this. You can outline the process. Nobody typically fights the process. There's. If it's a one on one interaction, how do we create that clear design?

If it's one on one, then I think I've encouraged people with this because I actually got, I have a cohort I'm mentoring with and one of the guys was asking me that exact question, like, okay, I'm going to go talk to this guy. We're sideways with each other. What can I do? I said, well, what you can do is get a design in your head. You know, just imagine how, how you think a good flow to conversation would go. And I said, you can do this yourself. Is it just one on one? You can say reach out and be, hey, before we get into this, here's our objective today, right? This is our main point and here's how I'd like to go about it. I want to hear from you first and then I'd like to share some things and then we'll see what to do with that. I said, you can do that in a very simple way with the other party. And if you agree ahead of time of how you want to conduct the conversation and the outcome, you're both hoping to agree, well, you've just won your first negotiation. If you agree on the design and how you want to structure the conflict and what you're going to try to do and what you're not going to try to do, then you're already working together on a thing. You're already coming together in the interest of achieving an outcome that's better than what you're currently experiencing. And if you can do that in concept, before you get into the, you know, the really point of dispute, then you're gaining agreement and you're setting up a chance for that to go even better.

Oh, I love it. I love the fact that again, it's so simple, right? Just have that conversation, actually bring it up. How often do we take the time to do that?

They don't do it. And I said, just call the guy and just say, hey, man, I'm, you know, I'm a little nervous, but thanks so much for agreeing to meet with me. And I just want to make sure we're straight as we come into it. You know, here's what I'm thinking, here's what we're going to do. You know, just if you do that in a humble and grateful way, then that person's probably going to appreciate that. And if there's anything or misaligned on expectations for the conversation, you can identify that ahead of time and then talk about that. I said, I've seen so many conversations go badly because people already had a dispute, and then they entered in to a. What was supposed to be a conversation to resolve that, and they entered with mismatched expectations and suddenly dispute is compounded. And it didn't have to happen like that. If you had done some. Just a little bit of simple. It's not complicated, you know, just simple front end. Hey, here's what we're going to try to.

Right?

Are we good with that?

I love it. Oh, man, that's really good. And, you know, being honest Steve here. And I. I say this all the time on the podcast. I'm a lot better in the business world than in my personal life. Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Had with Whitney. You're with. You say you do.

I'm with you. I'm with you. So losing my mind.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. You know, this podcast is like therapy sometime because I'm like, okay, read reading minds. Assuming in the story. Intense and everything. Wow, Kwame, why are you doing this? And now it's funny. As we're talking, I'm thinking to myself, you know what? I think a conversation that it would be worth having with for me and Whitney is like negotiating how we're going to have these difficult conversations, actually putting a framework together for us that works for us.

Yeah. How and when and in what space. I had to learn that because I'm more on the assertive side, shall we say? My wife is a little more. More introvert and likes to think things. Doesn't have that instant response, which has been great for me. I've learned patience and to be. Just to wait. And that has served me well. You know, it's. You know, I. We have. I have to very much be intentional with her of like, okay, when can we talk about this and. And be careful to not be super reactive and say, okay, we can talk about that later. So, yeah, that. Absolutely, man. I. And that is the toughest place. If I can do it at home and with my kids and all that. That's the real test.

Oh, man, that's power. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do that today. I'm gonna do.

Yeah. Whitney. Yeah. You know, give me her contact. I'm gonna follow up. I'm gonna see Kwame. Did Kwame talk to you? He's. He's got. He's got some homework from the podcast.

I'm gonna make that happen. This is good. Okay, great. And then the. The last step, we have progress. So tell us. That's the one that sounds the best to everybody, right? Oh, everybody likes a little progress.

Progress. Yeah, Kwame, I chose that word because sometime, like reconciliation, you know, or some. Something more conclusive in the end game. And I think that also sets people up at times for some unrealistic expectations and some disappointment that doesn't need to be there. So a lot of times I'm like, people are thinking about, I'm going to go talk about this thing, okay? And if it's small and it's not something that's built up over a long time, probably one time you can get to something conclusive. But the things that are more complex and longstanding and there's cumulative toll that's in play, like, hey, let's just take a step in the right direction. Let's just make a little progress. And don't conceive of it as one event or one conversation, but it could be a series. And if you can, you know, the trajectory of this thing is in a way that's eroding relationship and breaking trust. If you can just have a positive conversation that is respectful and you can start to turn the thing around, then you have an opportunity to build on that and maybe build some momentum. So don't put all the pressure on one conversation. Conceive of it as what would be progress? What would be a step back in a positive direction? Like, you got a family business, okay? And there's been a lot of tensions over the course of a year, and now suddenly they're really in an impasse, and it's negatively impacting the family and relationships and the business. And they're like, what are we going to do? Do that. You're not going to unwind in one conversation or two or three that's going to involve family dynamics, business agreements, how things work. That's a complex thing. So let's stop the erosion and let's turn it back in the right way. So I look at what are the things that are necessary to. In a small thing can resolve it. But really, let's just think of it as progress. How can we head in a more positive direction? Because if trust has been broken, you can have a good conversation, but trust only gets restored with certain behaviors repeated. Over time to rebuild confidence that I can rely on this relationship. You're not going to solve that in one conversation, no matter how great and forgiving it may be. Trust restoration takes time and repetition, and it's built on behaviors.

Brilliant. You're so right. Because if we think about this in a binary sense, success and failure, win, lose those type of things, then we have a very narrow path to victory that in many cases is completely unattainable. And so we might have a conversation that's going well and we are making progress, but we feel like we're losing, and that changes the energy in the room, and that affects the quality of the conversation. And then it might affect our strategy toward the tail end, where we say, okay, I've made some progress, but I need to close this. We need to get some resolution. And then you push too hard, the other person pulls back because they're not ready. And then we negate the progress that we did create over the course of the conversation.

Yeah, exactly. And so my two pillars in that side of the triangle, if you will, are because most of my work has been more in the interpersonal and reconciliation space, as opposed to business negotiation or things of that nature. But it's similar. But I talk about the two things are shared solutions and restorative actions. And so the shared solutions is like, that's the agreement that you want to get to, okay, we prepared well. We are faithful to the design of the conversation. We've listened well, we've spoken well. Now what do we do with what we've learned in this situation? Well, this is going to happen. And usually it's two things. Usually there. Often there's a forgiveness conversation, piece of that I'm so sorry, you know, and some type of apology, you know, some way to, you know, identify with the offense or the harm done and take responsibility for that and acknowledge an intention to move forward in a better way. And then an agreement on, like, what would help you, you know, what could I do to help rebuild trust? You know, so. So, like, what are the behaviors that could change that could demonstrate good faith on the apology that I just gave, the ask for forgiveness that I just expressed. And if you can get, you know, it may be a small thing. Can I text you? Do I have permission to reach out and we normalize some contact? Again, it could be. That could be a very small step. So that gets into restorative actions. What are the most helpful first steps that you can take to re trust that has been broken or shattered at times in a particularly bad Conflict. So there's the emotional and kind of relational piece. And then they're like, what, if anything, can we do to begin to rebuild? So I look at both of those, and then the restorative actions is like, what's the accountability and the capacity to execute that consistently over time? And here's the last thing I will share. And what is your plan for failure? Because if we're talking about substantial behavior change change, it's not going to go perfectly. You're going to regress, you know, you're going to have your bad moments. And I saw this so many times, Kwame. Like, you know, it starts off well, and then the same mistake gets repeated. By the way, this will apply to marriage as well. Let me tell you where I learned this one. You know, you know, I repeat the same mistake again. And next of all, Nana's saying to me, like, you never change. See, I told you. You're doing it again. Like, you know, there's. There's the, you know, a very human tendency to then disregard all the good work that you've done because made the same mistake again. So I like to just set people up at the beginning and say, look, change is not a linear process. There's ups and downs and, you know, steps back and steps forward. But over time, hopefully you're making progress. So make an agreement. If and when we fail, when we fail, here's how we will correct way more quickly than we did in the past so that we don't get derailed. It's going to happen. You're going to feel some of the same emotions, but make a plan for recovery. That's not going to leave you stuck for six months. You know, it'll maybe leave you stuck for six hours or a day and a half. And it's not going to wreck the next, you know, wreck your whole summer because you're able to, you know, correct and get back on track.

I love this, Steve. This is so good. This is so good. I promise you I will do my homework and I'm excited to see where this goes. Before you go, I want to make sure that you shout out your company and the work you do and let people know how they can get in touch with you and work with you.

How you can contact me is at my website@cstevebeck.com C as in Charles S-T E V E B E C K.com and there's some blog posts and things you can learn more about me and a way to contact me through that.

Awesome, Steve. Really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us.

All right, Kwame, it's a pleasure. Thanks, man.

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