Stop Playing Nice: Make an Enemy, Build a Brand

She is Laura Reiss, a world renowned branding strategist, best selling author, and the daughter of legendary marketing pioneer, Al Reiss. With over 30 years of experience advising some of the most iconic companies on the planet, Laura has helped leaders master one of the most powerful tools in marketing positioning. Her new book, Strategic how to Build and Position a Brand Worth Fighting for is already shaking up the way companies think about branding. In this episode, Laura reveals why brands that play it safe lose, how to define a category that you can own, and how the psychology of contrast can make your brand unforgettable. Laura will also show you how to leverage the concept of a strategic enemy to stand out in overcrowded markets for your own brand. This conversation will give you the tools to build a brand that people can't ignore. And now, without further ado, let's get into the interview. Can you tell us about your work with Coke and about the case study with Coke?

Well, I mean Coke's a very interesting example, but they, they have stuck to red. Except they've launched a lot of silly line extensions. For example, remember Coca Cola life? It's not alive anymore. But that brand was not red. In fact, they went against their own rule. Apparently it was all green. Why green? They wanted to be more environmentally friendly, right? This was a, a new product. It was a mid calorie cola, if you know it had cane sugar and stevia. But it was a loser. Why? Because if you say your brand is Coke life, what does that position your original thing as? I think it positions them as Coke death. Because listen, I mean, if you say this is life, what's the opposite? I mean there's always an opposite. I mean that's the key of thinking about strategic enemies. Because there's always a choice out there. There's not one thing for everyone. And whatever you say about your brand, if you position it as life, people are going to think about what the opposite is. And for them it was their own brand and making themselves their own worst enemy. Now that product isn't around anymore and you think about that category. Was the category problem? No, it was the line extension. Because today the mid calorie cola with prebiotics is the hottest thing going, right? You got poppy, you got Olipop out there and they're going like gangbusters. Because when people want a new category like this prebiotic soda, they want a new brand. The brand that stands for that category, that owns it with authenticity and that can proudly promote it and as well promote the traditional colas as the enemy.

There's so much to explore here. Laura, this is, this is fascinating. You're, you're so right. So it's almost like the, the concept in terms of the product that they wanted to create, that wasn't the problem. It was the execution and the branding and the storyline behind it that was the issue.

Sure. I mean there's, there's plenty of cases where, you know, listen, Kodak, they invented the first digital camera. Can you believe it? They did, but, and they launched it. But what they mistake they made was they called it a Kodak digital camera. Nobody wants a digital camera from a company called Kodak. Now Kodak was one of the most loved. You're too young, but I remember Kodak was, was, they called it Kodak, they said owned trust, it owned quality. No it didn't. It owned, you know, film photography. And so when your brand is so strongly linked to one category, expanding that name onto a new one, it messes with your. People think it doesn't sound right, that's not plausible. They instantly reject it. So when there is an opportunity, for example, in a new category, the best thing to do is give it a new name. Look, what did Gap do? They wanted a lower cost, fashionable type brand. They didn't call it Gap Warehouse, which they initially considered. They called it Old Navy and today Old Navy is leading the whole company because that category is going like gangbusters.

I think a lot of people just realized, oh my gosh, they're the same company.

No, that's the thing. I mean, listen, people buy a Lexus, you know, despite the fact it's owned by Toyota, the strongest companies in the world are multi brand companies. Not trying to put one name on everything. That's so last century. Right. You know, the IBM, everything. That isn't the way of the future. The way of the future is new brands for new categories. That's what Apple did. You know, they got the, they had the ipod, they have the iPhone, the iPad, the Macintosh. A brilliant strategy, each individual. But also what's really cool about Apple is that they unify the company with what I call a visual hammer. It's a visual that visually and emotionally communicates your brand power. And for Apple, I mean, great brand name, right? Totally distinguish themselves from the trash 80s and all the techy type computers initially back in the home computer day, you know, very, very strong identity for them and unifying it under one thing, the other thing. And I gotta give, you know, shout out to Coke because they are a great company and they do so many things right. But I just love Picking up, picking on em for coke energy and coke coffee and some of the silly things they did. But what they have done today is first of all great visual, visual hammer that, what is it? The contour bottle, right. That symbolizes that it is the real thing. It is the one that pioneered Coke, the category of cola and they use that on everything today. Not only that recently, you know, with you know, diet, but more importantly the Coca Cola zero. They've united regular taste of coke and the zero product into one color, one red beautiful package that this is, you know, unifying together against all the other enemies of waters and energy drinks. They have to come together to fight them. And I think that is a very strong message because think you don't want to show off that you're drinking a diet product or a zero. No one wants to be a zero. They want to say I'm drinking the real thing. It just happens to be without sugar today.

Brilliant. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and we're seeing that continuity too without feeling the need to label everything the same way. I like the example from Apple. They all the branding, they're just perfect in what they do usually when it.

Comes to branding but you know, they haven't always been a winner. I mean, listen, one very interesting example is Apple music. Do you have Apple Music? I don't. I have Spotify. Right. Apple, you know, invented the iTunes and the 99 cent song and it was fantastic. But what happened? Spotify came out with a new category they pioneered for 9, 99amonth, right. You can have any song you wanted. What a wonderful idea. Apple was late to the game to counteract that and you know, today they are not a big leader in music and in fact the ipod has been killed. It's rest in peace. Back in the early 2000s they called it the gadget of the century. I think it was a bit premature. Premature, don't you?

A wee bit.

But you know, not so sad for them because I think maybe iPhone could perhaps, you know, take the reign of the gadget of the century for sure.

Yeah. Not, not a bad, you know, well, the iPhone.

Think about it. Such a great example because you know, it, it is about. They weren't the first cell phone but what they said was it had Internet connectivity and they didn't just say it was Internet. Companies are mulling around with this idea but they gave it a very good category name. They said this was a smartphone and what did that do? It instantly set up the enemy and it repositioned them as dumb phones and Nokia at the time was, you know, leading the world. I mean, it, Nokia was a cell phone, but instantly Nokia is a dumb phone. And now who has a Nokia? Nobody. Right? Smartphone is the, you know, the leading dominant category. And you know, they're not always, you know, they don't have the entire market because there's always an opportunity for an alternative. You know, some people want Apple, but there's quite a few people actually more than have Apple have an Android and they didn't call it, you know, the Google system. They bought a small company and they use that name Android with a great visual hammer, that little green robot to remind us that they're the open source cell phone and they today dominate the world market.

1, 1 word that you've been mentioning a couple of times that I don't want us to gloss over is the word category. Because when you say the word category, I think you're meaning something different. The, the average person who doesn't spend their entire life dedicated to Grant.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I was, I was indoctrinated to the positioning theory very, at a very young age. So, yeah, nightly dinners, I got the speech. So absolutely. Let's go back to the basics. So, you know, positioning and, and branding is, is owning an idea in the mind. And most important, it, it has to take it to, in into account not what you want to say, but what the prospect is willing to believe. And so when you think about that theory is that you have to think about the mind. What, what's willing, what they're willing to. How are they categorizing things in that mind? Right. Is it just a mishmash of brands? Do people think about brand first and then the category? I mean, do you, when you go and, you know, order, go to the supermarket, you want to buy some, you know, drinks for the weekend, do you think, I'd like to? I'm going in for Bud Light now. Do I want a Bud Light seltzer? Do I want a Bud Light hard soda? Do I want a Bud Light Arena? Do I want a Bud Light? No alcohol. No, you don't. Nobody thinks like that. The first, most important decision anyone makes is what category do I want? Do I want a hard seltzer? Do I want a beer? Do I want a light beer? Do I want a stout? Right, you think category first and then the brands in that category. So we call it the file folders in the mind. Because if you're organizing something whether it used to be in paper, now it's on your computer. What do you do you Put it in folders. And so we say those folders are the categories or positions. And the best thing to own is to be the dominant brand in that category. So, so today you say, you know, think I want to buy an electric vehicle. You look in the mind and you think, let me look for my electric vehicle fold or what brands are associated with that category that I should investigate and think about. Of course, today the top brand is Tesla because they pioneered it. Right. For many years they were the only one out there. Today they have some competition and we got Elon Musk doing crazy stuff. But you know, for the most part, whether they buy a Tesla or not, everyone will at least consider them. And so thinking about the category is what, what category is our brand most associated with? Dominating category. But also the danger of putting one brand on multiple categories, as I mess, as I mentioned, messes with the mind. The best strategy is new category, new brands for new categories.

Unbelievable. I, I, for me, as an entrepreneur, you are solving several problems at one time.

And I love entrepreneurs. It is, it is so exciting because they, you know, they have, they've got balls and they've got courage. And those are two things that not every big company has. Because big companies fall in love with their brand. It's one reason why they do these crazy line extensions like say, Coca Cola Energy sounds great in the company. Or you know, Bud Light arena sounds great at the company because they're so in love with the brand, they think the brand name is the magic. It's not. It's the category that's the magic. And you know, again, that, that falling in love with your brand is so, so dangerous. And you know, it's, it's how to influence friends. Right. What did Dale Carnegie said, use the person's name often, you know, Kwame, Kwame, Kwame. And you, oh, you light up. Right. And the same thing I think in a company is that the more the brand name is used, people feel very loyal to the company. And using a new brand and not using Porsche on a new electric vehicle sounds, you know, like you're going against the, the company itself, which isn't true. The best thing long term are those multiple brand strategies as I mentioned.

Now for individuals, how does this apply to them? Because I think now more than ever we have to pay attention to our personal brands.

Yeah.

And sometimes people can tune out when they, when they hear this applied to big companies. But I know this magic still works for individuals too.

Yeah, well, I mean, you must think of yourself as a brand. I mean, you're you're, you're silly not to. And you know, from at the very start, what's your name right now? Names are always need to be thought about in relation to who you're going against. Like, how do you, you know, John Smith is very simple name and simple names are great, but it's not very distinctive, not very memorable. So, you know, being able for your name to, to stand out, to be easy to say and remember is, is very important. But also more importantly, a name is not a name unless you think about what that category is. So what can you be, you know, what's your specialty? What's your focus? What are you, what do you want to be known for? It doesn't have to encompass everything you do. I think that's the, that's a mistake. People think they, they say, you know, if I say I'm just really good at positioning, does, does that mean I'm, I'm not good at, you know, writing slogans? No. I mean there, there's multiple layers. But you can only hope that people remember one thing about you. Um, you know, you've got five seconds to make an impression. How are you going to do that? And that's why what you look like matters. And when I say look like, I don't mean how pretty you are, what your hair thing is, but the consistency of your look, you'll see today I'm wearing red. That's my color. You know, you have Steve Jobs. What did he wear? A black turtleneck. Now that, you know, it was his uniform, it set him apart. He was different and he made it into. That was why he was the, you know, the. Such a genius, right? And thinking about the simplicity of not just his technology, but he applied it to himself and he embodied that look. What's funny is that thornos lady, right, you know, she wanted to be a just like job, so she dressed in a black turtleneck. That's not going to do it. You can't just put on somebody else's outfit and expect to, you know, people to think you're Steve Jobs. You got to have your own outfit. You know, Jensen Huang of Nvidia, he wears a black leather jacket and he has for 20 years. Consistency is what builds brands. You can't just do, you know, something once it's unlikely to get attention. It's doing it and showing up every day. And I think that's, you know, about your personal brand. It does take that, you know, long term consistency of doing it over when no one's paying attention, but just over and over doing it and thinking about it, of how you can stand out.

This, this is really helpful. And I want to focus in on that point where with an individual person, it is both empowering but also kind of scary and intimidating to say, okay, if I'm only going to be remembered for one thing, then what is that thing? So for people who are thinking about starting their personal brand, what advice would you give them as they're starting to be more int. Intentional about?

Well, I mean, first of all, think about what you love. Don't try to do something to build a brand. Right? It has to come from the heart. And I think that that projects on other people. They, they sense that. I mean, we have, you know, just such a bullshit meter these days with all that's going on on the Internet and AI and able to, you know, fake it till you make it. But really, I think if you have the, you know, inner thought to think about what, what, what can I really do in this world? What do I want to do? Where do I think that I can make an impact and a difference and, and hone in on that one thing and do it over and over and over again and apply, as I mentioned that, the visual identity to it. And, you know, whether it's dressing up to stand out and always having a bow tie, whether it's putting, you know, our, our mayor here in Atlanta back in the day, Shirley Franklin, she wore a big flower lapel and, and she always wore it, and so it was instantly identifiable as her, her signature look. Everyone should think about what, what should be my signature look and stick to it. Now, here's the problem. It's boring. You know, I went to the store and I saw these clothes yesterday, and I'm like, oh, that purple dress, isn't that nice? And I had to slap my wrist and say, no, you are red and you got to stick to the red. It's same for personal brands and companies get in trouble with this, too. It is a bit boring to stay, to stay focused, to say no. That's another big idea for, for companies, for people say no to things that aren't, you know, within the focus of what you want to do and stand for. Put up those parameters, put the line in the sand. And that's very important for entrepreneurs and the way many big companies are built by, by saying no to something. I mean, Southwest saying no to, you know, first class. What did that do? It changed the perception of the airline, that it was for everybody. And they, you know, the air, the airline attendants and stewardesses you know, they made fun and jokes and it was, it was a great place to be and sad. They're undermining that, you know, by adding the classes that, that changes the perception of the brand and long term, you know, and the worst part is, you know, bags not flying free. I mean what an opportunity to have that one signature perk that nobody else is doing. It's distinguishing yourself and not just in a silly way, but a really important way that, that sets up what your true values are. I mean why is Subaru known as, you know, the, the out sporty vehicle? Because they only do four wheel drive. Back in the 90s they did both. Although they pioneered four wheel drive at that time. They're about 50, 50 because why, hey, I live in the south. We don't need four, we don't have, we have ice and snow every 10 years. So you don't really need four wheel drive. So they try to appeal to everyone. They try to say we'll do what you need, we'll do what you need. And that undermines the brand. And they were losing money. So what did they do? They got rid of 50% of the business. They got rid of two wheel drive. They focused on four wheel drive initially focused on, you know, the northern states and then they brought it down to the south because why not my son drives it out back. I mean the brands we choose say something about us. I saw an interesting fact. You know the, they found the way to find love unhinged. Well, the young lady in one of her photos, she showed herself holding, she was at a concert and holding a can of liquid death. Well, we know people love others with a sense of humor and she attributed that photo because her mate, and now too soon to be husband thought that was funny. Thought, thought it was relatable and connected with her based on that interaction of the brand. The brands we choose say a lot about us and we, I think we enjoy it. I mean you enjoy the, and you find a connection to the car brand. You use the, the cola you drink, the lipstick you wear. I mean all of these things, they, they make you feel better. And if that brand can have that narrow focus, it rallies people. And most importantly, if you rally against something, it's even more powerful. For Subaru it's like, hey, it's not, you can't be a serious outdoors person with a, you know, two wheel drive vehicle. You need to have, you know, Subaru with the four wheel drive or Salesforce with you know, saying no to software. The pioneer and you know, CRM in the cloud.

This is good because this allows us to segue into this, this brilliant idea of having a strategic enemy. Because I think. And also I think it's important to, to kind of help people to understand. Because actually I'm con. I'm interested for myself because I know if for the younger generation, let's say people under 30, when they say a strategic enemy, they're going to say, ooh, Laura's going to help me call out people. So I'm going to find, like an opponent. You're going to be my strategic op. I'm going to, I'm going to take shots on them on Instagram.

It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be Fight Club. And yeah, there's going to, you know, punching involved. And no, it, it's, it's not. That's not the concept at all. It's actually, you know, it's not about Evil Corp, right? It's not about saying there's, you know, our, our competitor is terrible. You can't go there. It's about a choice. It's. The contrast is most important because people, you know, most companies, most people just say, I'm great. I do this, I have that. You know, all of those things. Well, that's not believable. That's what you're saying about yourself. If, in fact you can show a contrast with something else, it makes it more easily processed and believed in the mind. And when you can call out a strategic enemy, you can also rally people to get more excited about what you're doing. Another good one is a dude wipes. Have we, have you done the dude wipes?

They're great.

Oh, my God, they're so good. Yes, they're so good. So this, if this is a guy out of college, living with his friends and, you know, as he says, and Sean Riley, you know, eating a lot of burritos, drinking a lot, and, you know, as, you know, they needed heavy duty things in the bathroom. So. But on a weekly trip, you know, they were buying baby wipes because they're terrific, right? But they're not flushable, they're not environmentally friendly. And he was like, why? Why isn't there something out there for me and my buddies to really get the job done? And also there were products out there, which is interesting because Cottonelle and Charmin had these, you know, somewhat wet type of products, but they were poorly positioned. They weren't going after, you know, they couldn't say, dry toilet paper sucks. You need to use this because that's their main business. So they're very weakly positioned. And Sean said, I'm going to make something out of this. I'm going to make it in a strong way with a great name and a great branding and say, we're going to put, you know, dry toilet paper just doesn't cut it, right? We're going to send dry toilet paper to the stone Ages. I mean, you can really get courageous and rallying people for something when you give them something to fight against. Now. I mean, if there's plenty of, I mean, for women, there's plenty of good reasons for the, for the dry toilet paper. And, and another reason they went after dudes, right? That's what they need. But in any case, it is so important to, to, to go out and call something out. I mean, the other one everyone knows about is liquid death. And, and, and people think, oh, it's the Krazy can, you know, all of this, you know, crazy promotions and they do great marketing, but they also have a method message and that's death to plastics. Plastics are killing our globe. In fact, most aren't. It's not even profitable to recycle them, I've heard. So, you know, they're just going to the landfills and they take millions of years to decompose. Aluminum is in forever recyclable. In fact, most of the aluminum, you know, ever invented is still in use today. It's an amazing important message that is also connected to, you know, giving it a great brand name and positioning it for people that, you know. And listen, it's a big trend. People go into concerts and not drinking. Apparently there's a sober roo at Bonnaroo today, but it talks to people and they feel good about using that brand because it's a message of, I don't want the energy drinks, I don't want the sugar, I don't want the alcohol. I just want to, you know, have a product that I enjoy and drink water or, you know, now they're expanding into other more healthy alternatives, but still backed by that positioning of, you know, saying in death to plastic.

Brilliant. I didn't even know that. Now it's, it's almost like they can't forget it.

They have to, they have to keep reminding people because, you know, they don't want to be seen as, you know, just, just, you know, just crazy marketing, right? They are, they have a serious message and that's really important. I mean, even dude wipes. It's a serious message. I mean, this is serious business. One, one funny thing about Dude Wipes. And this is, is a great message for, for entrepreneurs. And you know, he got, he was on Shark Tank, which is really exciting. He got an investment from Mark Cuban and you know, things were moving along. And what happens when you get a little success? It goes to your head, right? You think, oh my gosh, I am killing it here. And he was right. He had a great product. But what the mistake he made was, you know what? People really like these dude wipes. We want to be Dude Nation. They wanted to launch a whole range of different dude male products from soap to deodorant will just be the dude enterprise. And he did. In fact, in 2019, he launched the Dude Soap and Dude Deodorant. Two things. Think about that when you do that. Do you really want to use a soap that is from the brand you wipe with? I mean, many problems on this. Yeah, many, many products. But you know, people do they fall in love with the name, that it will rise above that, right? We are Dude Nation and we're for Dude. But there's, first of all, there's many other competitors in that space. But it also took time and attention away from expanding the brand. They were only, you know, 100 million or so in sales. Well, that's a lot. There's a lot more they can grow into, right? Today they're over 350. But it just so happens I just give a little plug here. But he read my Dad's book, the 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, and he got a few chapters in the book and he said, oh, shit, we're expanding. We're killing ourselves. We should know. We, we have a category. We need to grow this category. We're killing ourselves with the line extension. So he killed the dude expansion. And it just so happened. This was about the time of the COVID And if you remember, back in the COVID we would buy and for some reason, toilet paper was the thing. We had toilet paper and paper towels and we would buy anything on the shelves. Many people discovered Dude Wipes, but he, he was able to leverage, you know, the disaster of COVID and the attention it brought to the toileting because he got out of the deodorant, he focused all of his time, all of his resources. He ramped up manufacturing, he ramped up marketing, and he was really able to take advantage of that and think about that time. You know, money is great, but time is your most valuable resource. What are you going to spend your time doing? And when, you know, when you have a big opportunity like that to make the most of it, you know, by having that narrow focus, by being, being there, being prepared and being able to ride the dude wipes wave. And I love, he's got the, when you, when you have a narrow focus, you can think of funny things to do or serious things, but for them, they've got, you know, the Mini Cooper car, they call it the Mini Pooper. And he drives, he drives around and talking about these things.

Talk about a unique calling card.

It is absolutely, you know, if you're going to, you know, you got to have a sense of humor. But you know, listen, the principles also apply to very serious business. I mean, the success of Nvidia in particular is just an amazing story. I cover the whole case history as a whole chapter in my book, as a matter of fact, because it's so interesting how they use the idea of positioning a focus of a new category. So they launched the first gpu. Well, what's a gpu? They invented it. They wanted a bigger graphics chip that did more things, was more powerful, and instead of competing on price, they gave the new category a new name. And it was instantly understandable why, because everyone knew what the CPU was, which, what, you know, intel pioneered. And so when you can give a category, a name like that, something where it relates to something people already know, it's much easier. You know, that's where you have, you know, wet toilet paper versus dry, you've got the GPU versus the cpu. But, but also what they did was what today they are known for the AI, right? But using that gpu, it's also very good at the, the parallel processing, which is what the AI is all about. And so they were the pioneer. They started at the very beginning when everyone said they were crazy. Their stock price in 2012 was tanking. But they had vision. And that's what entrepreneurs, that's what the most successful people have. They have the vision to see the future and then also the courage to double down on it. To have the faith that maybe today everyone's not going to say I'm great, but I have a very strong conviction and I'm going to do everything I can to, to again, you know, stay focused, maintain, and repeat, repeat, repeat. The most important principle of building any brand is the consistency of the message of BMW saying the ultimate driving machine, right, for over 30 years. You know, over time, actually, when you repeat something, it becomes more believable. It's the, you got to study, you got to study the brain to truly understand and best utilize branding and marketing, because absolutely Visuals have emotional power and the repetition of verbal ideas that we make them more powerful and believable over time.

Let's talk about the brain, because I think when people can understand the psychology, those mechanisms that are driving these branding decisions, it helps them to feel a lot more confident in them and feel that courage to double down and actually plant their flag in this way. So when it comes to psychology, what do you think it is about the psychology of branding and marketing that people don't understand that holds them back the most?

Well, I, I think most people are just, they're very focused on themselves and what they want to say. Right? And, and, you know, and, and that's, you know, that's human nature. Right. I mean, and they, they, they believe, you know, we've got a really great product if people would just listen. Right? But instead of, instead of saying, you know, just forcing the idea, I think, thinking about in the mind, where is that open hole and what can we relate it to? So it makes it more understandable. Revolutionary ideas are difficult to understand. But if you break it down into simple, you know, a simple formula, a simple mechanism. Listen, you have a dog?

Me?

Yeah. Oh my goodness. All right.

Whenever, whenever my kids ask us, I say, I already have too many small mammals. Yeah, we're good.

Well, that's, that's very true, but they're wonderful things. So the farmer's dog, what did they do? I mean, this is fresh dog food. I mean, is fresh better? I don't know, but probably. Of course fresh is better. I mean, people are supposed to eat fresh, wholesome foods. Why would you feed your dog processed food every day of its life? You're going to shorten the longevity. And they call the enemy brown burnt balls. I used to think that was the healthiest thing. I didn't feed them canned dog food. I thought all the healthy so called brands were dry food. I didn't think about it until they reminded me that that's processed. It's a bunch of processed stuff in there. And the farmer's dog, which is a great name, you know, names matter. What the other really interesting thing about brands is too often, you know, listen, they, they listen to what I say. They say, oh my gosh. Laura said the category is really important. Why don't we just give our brand name, the category name. So you have products like Fresh Pet, which is a supermarket brand of fresh food. You have Lyft. Do you take a Lyft? If someone says, you want a Lyft, I say, I'll have an Uber, thanks.

Uber is a client, so I am pro Uber.

Oh, Uber is. Yeah, Uber Uber is fantastic. And here's the. Here, Uber got lucky too. You know, sometimes, you know, you're a genius. Sometimes it comes with a process server. So Uber wasn't initially called Uber Uber. It was called Uber Cab. It was uber cab.com. and, you know, the San Francisco, you know, taxi authority said you're, you're, you know, you're, you're trying to fool people into thinking you're a taxicab. And they're like, whatever, no, we're not. And they're like, we don't want to fight you. We're just going to shorten the name to Uber. Well, that was the best thing they ever did because taking cab out of the name let them strongly promote as taxis as an enemy. And that was a very key part of the brand strategy and, you know, great success. Us, you know, such a killer example of, of utilizing the enemy and having a, an excellent brand name now despite, you know, some of the, the silly things they did with the logo over the years, but just that simplicity of black and Uber, that's all they need. And it's a, it's a brilliant. I mean, Lyft has not been able to successfully compete, but the name is too generic. And what is the, you know, they had those pink mustaches. Now that is, is unique and it stood out, but what did it communicate? I mean, to me, that's not a strong communication platform there. But over, you know, you, you've got lots of examples from, you know, the old one, but a oldie but a goodie was, you know, Miller Light Beer. Right. They try to position it and many companies do this with an alternative spelling. Right. Lyft is L, Y, F, T. Right. L, I, T, E for beer. But, you know, if the problem is while it looks great on paper, that's not where the brand lives. The brand lives in the mind. And in the mind it's a sound. And L, I, G, H, T is the same as L, I, T, E in the mind because the sound is exactly the same. The better direction is to give yourself a strong brand name than has a generic, if you will, category name to reinforce it.

Oh, explain that, because I, that is a nuance that I think a lot of people could miss that last part. Part.

Yeah, sure. I mean, of course, the, the idea being that your brand name long term wants to stand for the category and as a result you want it to be differentiating from everybody else. I mean, you can't own a A generic name like Light. Because what happened, Bud Light came out, Coors Light came out, and all of a sudden it had to be, like, from Miller. It was no longer a singular name or idea. And so if you can, you know, think about your brand name, long term is very important, but you need that, you know, very generic category name as well as the brand name. Another great one is, you know, the Hard Seltzers, right? This wave took off, you know, billions of dollars and was started by, what, White Claw. Now, interesting backstory. This was a brand from Mike's Hard Lemonade. So they saw an opportunity. People were, you know, wanting to cut down on sugar, cut down on carbs. So they launched a new brand. But it was a simple. It was a simple category. It was, you know, Hard Seltzer. What's interesting is they weren't first. Spike Seltzer was first, but the name is too generic. You know, that's a great category name, but it doesn't allow for that uppercase name, you know, to. If you, if you say, have you had a Spike Seltzer to your friend, what kind of Spike Seltzer, Long term, every category is going to fail competition. So unless your name is right, unless your visual is strong, unless your communication strategy and you know, what your slogan, your battle cry is, is, is strong. It's going to be very difficult to compete against the enemies that you're going to. What you're going to face. White Claw did a great job. They were in cans. They forgot the bottles, right? And that they didn't coin this, but a. A lovely guy on the, on the YouTube did. But there ain't no laws when you're drinking the Claws. And that's the way the kids, you know, were talking about them in the early days, and the police didn't like that very much. But there's always an opportunity for the drink for the new generation, right? When I was in college, everybody drank beer. You know, today I've got, you know, one out of college, one in college. And. And it's, you know, all about these white claws. And they do like, you know, having a brand for their generation, for them. I mean, even, you see in energy drinks, you know, the kids today are drinking water Celsius. You know, it's more of a life, a fit lifestyle. It's, you know, both male and female. It's welcoming to all. And they see what, you know, monster and Red Bull as what their parents drank, which, you know, as we all know, if you have kids, not very cool to do what your parents Did.

It's so funny to think about it because I remember when those brands came out and it was like, so cool, and parents were saying, this is so terrible. People are drinking this stuff. And now it's old too. Yeah.

You know, everything gets. Now that's not to say that, you know, listen, Coca Cola has been around, you know, over a hundred years and, you know, as the real thing, it's the original, there, there's still power in that. As long as the category is strong, the success of Coca Cola as a brand is only as strong as, you know, the cola category itself. Now, it does have advantages. Back in the, you know, early 19th, 1900s, you know, orange soda was a big hit. Apparently I wasn't there, but it's a, it's a note flavor. There's only so much orange soda you can drink. You know, Coca Cola is, it's more like a wine. It has multiple flavor notes, which allows people to enjoy it more and drink it as opposed to, you know, you can only have one orange soda and you're done. Hmm.

That's so it. There's so much to consider when it comes to making these brands.

Oh, you know, and, and it's. What's. What, you know, there's, it's an art and science, which is what I think what gets me excited about working with all these companies because, you know, we, we write about the immutable laws of. But it's applying them is you have to really understand the situation, the category, the brands at play, and know what laws to apply when. And that's, you know, that's what makes it fun. That's what makes it interesting. That's what makes it a challenge. Why, you know, not all companies get it right. And, you know, the best thing you can do is study case histories and, you know, keep up with the news, see what the brands are doing. Many times. We don't often see the early failures before we see the great success. I mean, I bet many people didn't even know about Nvidia in the early years if they weren't a gamer. But I mean, I had sons in gaming, so I knew about Nvidia chips back in the day. But today everyone's now, you know, getting introduced to it as, you know, the AI, you know, computing company of the world.

I want to talk about the, the connection, the nexus between marketing and other types of persuasion, like negotiation and persuasion, when we're actually in front of people. Because I've recognized that if you have a really strong brand of your company, but also it applies to individuals. If you have a really, really strong brand, strong personal brand, it's almost like that brand does a lot of the persuasive work that you otherwise would had to do in the actual conversation with people if they already are familiar with you and your brand. Can you talk a bit about that? Psych.

Well, yeah, no, if, I mean that's what a brand is, right? It's, it's that, that, that idea in the mind that you own that you stand for. And then so people already have. Perception is everything. You know, way too many people are focused on the reality of the situation of yourself. Your. It doesn't matter. It's only what the perception is in the mind of the consumer. So first, and I call it the Everest of challenges in marketing is getting in the mind in the first place. And that's the biggest challenge. I mean, once you're in there, then you have a, you know, you're known for something, right? You have in if you're going into a negotiation, you know, you have, you're a pre known entity for good or bad, right? I mean, you're stuck into whatever perception you're in, but you are a known entity. And that's why, you know, know we talk a lot about the, the importance of narrowing the focus and what you did with negotiation, right. I mean that was what, that was the sharp knife that got you in the mind of the consumer. And that's the first and most important thing. And it was, it also is what anchors you. And if you think about it, I hope you don't ever want to get away from negotiation as a core essential idea of your identity. But think about, isn't everything a negotiation? I mean, I think there, there is lots to say and when it comes to, you know, what, what I talk about in branding, you know, absolutely, because it is a negotiation is about understanding the differences between the two sides and the fact that, you know, there is a, you know, there's a war in many, you know, we got the cola wars, the beer wars. Brands are at war. And the contrast between them is what gets people energized to support their, their brand. Right. And it gets people excited to understand and the differences. And I love what you say in terms of negotiation is it is about having respect for the other side. Because the same way in marketing you don't want to trash your competitors. You want to, you know, you want to accept what they're doing and say there is a time and a place. Listen, if I am Canva, which I think is one of the greatest companies, right, Bringing, you know, the ability for anyone to create a logo and a graphics and all of this. But you know, they can't trash talk or end in the reverse. But Adobe, I mean that is, you know, the high end, high level, super complicated, you know, software for, you know, the professional set. And so, you know, the contrast between them and not, you know, again, seeing what your size, where there's benefits, where there's not and to successfully compete against them. We call it a debate. So, you know, in any kind of situation, people love this. They don't just make a choice what do they do. They think about who are the competitors in that category. They go to Reddit to see what is being talked about. But getting people word of mouth is of course the, the key driver of getting brands, you know, that respect of getting that the brands, that credibility of, you know, you trust much more what a friend says to an ad. You see, I hope so. I mean, I think that's the way most people think. But what the ad does, and this is a very important part of marketing and understanding the process, is that advertising should never be used to introduce an idea. It should be used to reinforce something that they already know. When you see an ad, you should nod your head, yes, I should go buy a Coke. You know, it is delicious. It's the real thing. And too many companies use advertising to expand into other things, to talk about the expansion they're doing instead of, of, you know, hammering in that one idea and reminding people to do that by using, you know, again, the, the word of mouth, the PR talking, you know, what others say about you has much more believable believability than what you say about yourself.

This is so good. I'm running out of space for notes here too.

Notes, fantastic. I love, I love a good note. Well, you know, notes are important. You know, being able to oversimplify your message so somebody can take a note. That's a really important principle if you think about it. And that's what we work with companies. How can we oversimplify it so people can tell their friends, can be reminded of it and to take a note on it. I mean, if you are going to listen to this, what would you write down? I mean, I hope you write down that brands need a focus. When you have a focus that categories matter more than brands. Right. So dominating a category with your brand is the ultimate goal. And then you need an enemy. How can you contrast from for example, another category if you're launching a new one, you know, pushing the other category to create the contrast. So what people can more understand what you're, what you stand for, because when you clearly say what you're against, it makes it much more clear what you stand for.

Wow, you're so right. You are so right. Laura, I could keep on talking to you forever about this, but I always, I always want to make sure that I give Simone some space because he listens in and see parts that I know that our audience will want to know more about. So, Simone, any, any additional follow up questions coming to mind for you? So once you have your own brand and you realize that everything is wrong, how can you change and not change in front of or not be perceived as weak by your audience or by your target or your niche? How can you, you know, tweak your message or repurpose everything or, you know, how, how can you frame it so that you don't look like, weak?

Well, I mean, most people are trying to do too many things and saying too many messages and ideas. I mean, the idea of narrowing a focus, I think, you know, others will, will see that with strength. I mean, again, if you don't have a brand in the mind, then, you know, nobody knows you. So the reality doesn'. If you have a strong perception, it is very difficult to make a radical change. Right? I mean, you can't, you know, go from A to B. Kodak couldn't go from, you know, film photography to digital photography. That was just an impossibility. So for a company, you can launch a second brand. Now for a person, that becomes a little bit more of a challenge. I think making the bridge of, you know, narrowing in on the focus and calling out with that future and how it relates to the past can be very effective. But again, again, you know, so few people think about applying these things to themselves. I mean, you know, I just got on the, on substack and I mean, you look at all these names of the stacks and nobody, I'm like, what are you talking about? Just give me a reason to follow you and maybe I will. And you know, then again, I mean, and the consistency of it. One of the difficulties, as I mentioned, is it gets a little boring to kind of talk in the same, in the same vein or on the same topic over and over again. But, you know, you know, just remember, not everyone has heard the 85,000 times you said it before you got to say it again. And they also like to be reminded. I mean, I think there is something, you know, why do people go to church every Sunday? I mean, just to hear the same message over and over again. And so I think with brands it's the same thing. You go back to that brand because you, you want to be involved with them. You want to be pumped up to, you know, whether it's Patagonia and you know, the environment or whether It's Tesla and EVs. I mean you feel good about, about you are doing something, you are supporting an EV company and that's a message that you know, other companies like Ford can't do because they're selling everything. They can't strongly go against a competitor. And you know what I love to do is I love to go to the supermarket and everyone should because looking at what the brands are doing out there. But just remember they're not all doing it right. You can't always follow what the big guys are doing and girls and companies are doing because they're not always doing it right. You've got to look at those, you know, up coming and, and see long term what happens to those brands when they launch things like Coca Cola Energy or. One of my favorite examples is Triscuits. I love Triscuits. I go to the store. I mean they've got, first of all They've got like 28 different flavors. They've got like basil and pumpkin spice. Because everything has pumpkin spice. Who Triscuits. You're kidding me. Now that's fine. I mean lots of companies have lots of flavors. But the one product I did notice was Triscuits. Organic. Organic Triscuits. I mean, think about that. You can imagine though, at the company they're sitting around thinking, well, organic's a big thing. We gotta, we gotta, gotta cover the, COVID the market. If somebody wants it, we better offer it. And you know that's inside out thinking, right? And so you gotta think on the outside of what if we put that on the shelf? What is that doing to the mind of the consumer? What is that saying to them? It's saying to them you're an idiot. We've been fooling you all along. You thought Triscuits was wholesome because it was the original wholesome whole wheat cracker. And now we've got organic and now you put them in a bind. Now there's one thing about making choice and you want people to make a clear choice in the market because do you want Triscus or do you want Cheez Its that's a choice. But now Triscuit regular versus Triscuit Organic, you make your own consumer feel dumb because now they got two lousy choices. They Buy the organic thinking, oh, I've been duped all these years and paying, feeling silly to pay more for it. Or they buy the original and feel bad, you know, it's not organic, some choice. And that's unfortunately the situation that many companies have put themselves in. And I call it, you know, being your own worst enemy. There's, there's nothing wrong with, you know, having a second brand to compete against you. That's a great strategy. But having that one brand with a line extension that makes your original look sick, really, that's a danger that many companies face. And unfortunately, we're trying to set them straight. And so excited because I think entrepreneurs really, they latch onto this, they get it. But long term, they have to remember what made them successful and keep onto that anchor in the mind.

So when it comes to your legacy in this space, how have you balanced charting your own path with just the honoring the legacy that your father created? How have you gone about balancing that?

Well, I had the greatest opportunity in the world being the daughter of Al Reese and as I said, being indoctrinated into positioning at a very early age. The articles and it started hitting the scene in the 70s when I was born and dinner table conversations were about. We would, we would watch the television, the commercials would come out, and my dad would give a sermon as to what they were doing right or wrong, and, and talking to my, my mother and I as if we were the company CEOs, we could actually do something. But I, you know, I was 10. What was I going to do? But here, here's a, here's a very interesting thing. A lot of people want to make it on their own. They want to, they want to do. And they don't want to, you know, take any handouts, if you will. I don't think working with my father was a handout. I think it was a great, the greatest opportunity I was, I was blessed to have and I spent, you know, 30 years. He passed in, in 2022 at almost 96 years old. And, you know, just such a, such a wonderful life of, you know, talking the world. But, you know, I was able to, you know, I think really take advantage of that. I mean, I, I like to say that the first 10 years of working with him, I was, was like the ultimate apprentice. I mean, I was, you know, getting coffee, doing the books, like, taking notes. I was just like a sponge soaking up all that. It was, it was so exciting. And then, you know, then it was, you know, I was able to speak up more in meetings. I was getting my own confidence. I mean, these things take time. You don't. You don't become a guru overnight. And you can't just slap your name on something. I mean, I really, I think I did the hard work of years and years of in the business, you know, know, with him and then even guiding him and, you know, in his later years as to, you know, what the newest things that were going on in technology and branding and now today, you know, having, you know, just the excitement and, you know, courage to take positioning to new heights, to new levels, to face what we're all facing today. And, you know, I think, you know, keeping the core of what my anchor is in terms of positioning, but also bringing new things, new spins. That's what the visual hammer is, you know, the idea I've talked about for many years and now the strategic enemy of how to best leverage positioning so that you can build, I say, a strong brand that is worth fighting for.

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