Strategic Leadership for Multigenerational Success with Quincey Penn M.S.

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Quincy, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Now, it's my pleasure, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do? Awesome.

Thank you very much. Well, my name is Quincy Penn. My pronouns are he, him, his, and I am a diversity equity and inclusion specialist. And so with that, I work various companies on helping them with their diversity equity inclusion initiatives and programs, assessments and tools of that nature to really help with the efficiency of their work environment.

Well, I would assume you're pretty busy then, because that's a very, very, very important work. And so before we get into this, I also want you to shout out your PhD because that is a really important piece of work and I think it'll give us good context for the upcoming conversation.

Awesome. Yeah, so I'm getting my. I'm actually graduating this May with my PhD in leadership. Yes, very excited. And so my dissertation is looking at how intrinsic and extrinsic motivational factors impacts the workforce job satisfaction, which ultimately leads to the desire to be retained or not. And so an aspect that I look at is diversity characteristics, on how diversity characteristics can impact one's perception of those intrinsic and extrinsic motivational factors within the workplace that then outputs their job satisfaction. So specifically, how can we intentionally address folks work motivation which will then lead into their job satisfaction and then form their desire to be retained or to leave?

This is incredible. Yeah. And I mean the timing of this is perfect for you because with the great resignation, people are like, what do I do about this? Well, now we have the answer. We call Quincy Penn. That is the answer. So everybody links in the description below for this podcast. So let's. In this episode we're going to focus on the unique aspect of diversity, equity and inclusion that addresses age. We're living in a time where there are more generations in the workplace than ever before. I know a lot of our clients have been struggling with that transition. How do we manage these diverse perspectives as it relates to age? This is really interesting, Quincy. How about you just start off by setting the stage. When you think about what the situation is right now with the multi generational workplace, how would you describe it?

I really like to make it simple. And I have a formula that I feel like everybody can kind of agree with the formula that you have inputs and you have outputs, you have cause and you have effect. In the scientific world we call it you have independent variables and you have dependent variables. It's looking at how we can manipulate the independent variables variable, the cause, to then get the dependent variable of desire, the output. And so right now we're recognizing, we're seeing retention right as far as the great resignation. And that's going to be the output. And we cannot really directly address the output, but we really have to be more focused on addressing the input, the independent variable, as far as figuring out what is the cause of this potential resignation. And so I have it breaking down is that your cause is going to come down to motivational factors that people experience within their job. So essentially how one perceives these intrinsic and extrinsic motivational factors within the workplace will then determine their output or determine their culture or determine their job satisfaction within the job. And then we have a thing called covariate variables in the scientific world. And so covariate variables speak to the things that impact the dependent variable. So things that impact the input. And so with the input or the independent variable being intrinsic and extrinsic motivational factors, a covariate variable is going to be diversity characteristics. Because one's diversity characteristic can then impact the way that an employee perceives these motivational factors in the workplace. That then impacts their outcome of their culture. So we have various diversity characteristics. And one thing that we're talking about today is generation, so age. So it's looking at how can someone's age impact the way that they perceive those motivationals in the workplace and understanding those nuances and where the awareness that I try to educate people and to understand is how each of these generations have perceptions and to educate leadership teams on those various perceptions of the motivational factors. So when we talk about a term like culture, right, Everyone, it's so vague because everyone can have their own definition of what culture is. And so having this vague idea of what culture is then gives you a vague, a lot of, a lot of vague independent variables. So you have a lot of vague inputs because of the output is so vague. And so for us to be able to define clearly and be intentional about how we want to address these inequities or these challenges, we have to be able to clearly define what we identify as culture. And then that will allow us to identify what we identify as the independent variables or the motivational factors within the workplace.

Oh, this is really, really, really interesting because I like this formula. And so let me take a step back and summarize really quickly, because the motivational factors are the cause that leads to the effect which could be the resignations that we're seeing. The great resignation. But what was interesting is that you said that the motivational factors are going to be based in large part on one's perception, and one's perception is going to be based on large part on these diversity characteristics. And so in this case, we're focusing on age or generational differences. But your diversity characteristics, I'm assuming you correct me if I'm wrong on this, Quincy. It seems like these diversity characteristics could be literally anything. And so anything that we use to self identify will impact how we perceive these situations, which will impact our motivational factors, which will have a significant impact on whether or not we want to stay in our position 100%.

100%. And so the key is then being able to break down these covariate variables or these diversity characteristics and being able to understand how these diversity characteristics impacts people differently. And as we can understand how everyone is being impacted differently, then we can be more aware of how we can address everybody's needs. And that's what equity is.

Yeah, this is great. And so essentially, when it comes to how we're defining equity here, it's first getting an understanding of what people need and why, and then treating, then addressing each person's Individual needs differently based on those things. This is great. And I think really what it comes down to, which is what it often comes down to with human connection and conversation and communication in general. It's empathy, empathy, trying to take some time to figure out how everybody sees things and feels about this situation. And if we layer our, our approach to empathizing with other people with this in mind, then we're not just going to look at people in a general sense. It actually helps us to see different, I guess, stratifications of humanity in different ways. So we can see things a little bit deeper and a bit more nuanced way. So it's not just, all right, I'm looking at Quincy. All right, this is how Quincy feels. But now I'm going to consider, all right, considering again, the multi generational workplace, how does Quincy's age impact how he feels? Okay. And I'm going to consider that as I'm empathizing in order to make sure that I can treat him the way that he wants to be treated, which is really the foundation of respect.

100%. 100%. So then it goes down to the next step will be identifying or being able to define generation. Right. How can we define and break up these age groups so that way we can better dive into the nuances of the differences within these age groups? And so the term generation is a term that, you know, you have scientists on both sides of the coin who say it's something that's real and it's something that's a myth. Right? You have some people who believe that generation, that there's a tie to being raised or being born within a certain time frame along with other people who, because of the culture of society during that point of time, that, of course, is going to have an impact on your experiences. And that experiences create your personality and it creates your perspective. And so that's the tie to how one side of the coin feels that generations are a real thing. Because the time period that you grow up in is going to generate or it's going to evolve the type of person you are, the way you think and things of that nature. On the other side of the coin, you have people who feel like generation was just a term coined by marketing agencies to then target certain groups. And this was their way of how to target certain groups. And that there was no, there's no real tie to a generation itself. And that believing that it comes from more of a human development standpoint, which states that we are, we all are going to go through the same human development stages. And within those stages, we're going to have the same thoughts. So it doesn't matter between someone who's 20 or someone who's 60. Everybody's going to have the same thoughts when they're 20 years old. Everyone's going to have the same beliefs when they're 20 years old. And that's the human development belief of generations is that no matter where you are in what stage in life you're in, you're going to have a specific personality traits that are going to be geared to that stage of development. And so that's the kind of the two coincides to generations.

Okay, so. All right, Quincy, listen, I'm going to push you here. I am going to push you to publicly pick a side. Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Yes. So I'm going to be biased in that. And I believe that we do have generations. I believe in generational differences. I believe that a time period that we grew up in, the things that that happen change and impact the way that people are. So right now, specifically, we have four different generations in our workforce. We have our baby boomers, we have our Generation X, we have our millennials, or Generation Y people might call it. We have our Generation Z. And the next is going to be Generation Alpha. But those aren't folks that we're really considering right now because they're not near our workforce. Right. Generation Z is around. And that's another thing. The year cutoff of what generation is is going to be subjective, Right? Because usually these are going to generations are going to be about a block of 15 to 20 years in a sense. But when exactly that block begins is going to be subjective, based upon the researcher or so on. And so for me, I have Generation Z. That Cutoff is like 1997 to 2015. Right. And I classify millennials as 1980 to 1996. I classified Gen Z from 1960 to 1979. And I classify baby boomers from the 1946 to the 1959. So these are going to be my personal breakdowns of how I view and classify these generations. And knowing that right now we currently have four generations in our workforce which is going to be those baby Boomers, Gen X, millennials and Gen Z's. Now we are going to view motivational variables differently, but we have still yet to define what those motivational factors are. These motivational factors is what I identify as culture because again we say talk about culture. I really think that culture is a feeling, right? Culture is how you feel about a situation. And So I have 11 characteristics that will be included into or that will be recognized as the motivational factors. And I get these 11. I really have a theoretical framework of human behavior because it sounds for human behavior. These are going to be innate things that we have about ourselves that will work across industry. And so I use he's two factor theory of understanding that we have content and context variables that attribute to one's job satisfaction. And with these content and context variables, it also can be recognized as intrinsic and extrinsic variables that essentially contribute to one's job satisfaction. So you have five intrinsic variables and those five are going to be achievement, advancement, recognition, responsibility, professional growth. And then we have six extrinsic factors which are going to be organizational policy, administration, salary status, job security, and interpersonal relationships. So all 11 of these characteristics are then going to need to be defined, right? Because Even with these 11 characteristics, they can have different perceptions. And again, we're talking about people's perception. This is how we measure, this is how we measure progression. This is how we measure culture is because we're measuring folks perception on their culture that they're experiencing, right? And so with these 11 characteristics, we have to recognize that folks can have various perception of these 11 characteristics. So it's up to us or it's up to the leaders to then define how as an organization do we want to define each of these 11 characteristics so that way we can be knowledgeable of how we plan to impact these 11 characteristics. This is how we get intentional. And so with these 11 characteristics, how I first like to do is I first like to have a baseline assessment how do people currently feel about these 11 characteristics, right? And so with these 11 characteristics I have a breakdown of three questions that will then be asking three questions that will be assessing different perspectives of each intrinsic and extrinsic variable. So if we have 11 intrinsic and extrinsic variables, and then we have three questions per intrinsic and Extrinsic variable, then that means we have a total of 33 assessment questions. And that's going to be the three times 11. We have 33 assessment questions.

Go ahead. This is so cool. This is so cool. Yes, I know. My listeners probably know this. I'm a lawyer by trade, but my background is in psychology. This is endlessly fascinating. It makes a lot of sense. Because what I'm realizing here is when it comes to, for instance, this assessment, we're focusing on these intrinsic and extrinsic variables as it relates to the different perspectives in the generation. What I'm realizing here, and Quincy, you tell me if I'm off on this. It's sounding like different people in different generations could look at the exact same thing and feel very, very differently about it. Coming to an objective conclusion about these things is impossible because it's going to be modified by our generational perspective, amongst things.

Yes.

Wow. And taking this a step further, then, when we think about this in the context of diversity, equity and inclusion, making sure everybody feels included, we're recognizing that an organization, let's say, that's been in existence for 50 to 100 years, the organizational culture needs to shift as the people within the culture change. Yes. We talk about race, gender, sexual orientation, those type of things. I think within the diversity, equity and inclusion sphere, that's where a lot of the focus is given. But it's sounding like, based on what you have discovered in your research, that when we're considering culture, we also have to consider the fact that we have four generations in the workplace. And if we're not renegotiating culture on the topic of generational inclusion, we're going to be missing the boat.

Yes. And that's exactly what we see today as in a great recession. We're seeing a lot of people missing the boat. And how we, how we get to this point is because our workforce, our workforce is catered towards the dominant culture, just like everything, right? A dominant culture is going to have the power to then put their ways, their thoughts, the way they want things on everyone else. And so when you have one way that you mark your dominance is by being the majority, Right? So automatically you have these groups who become the majority who gained this dominance. So before you had the baby boomers, who are recognized as one of the largest generations ever, Right? So they created a workforce that essentially everybody had to then adapt to because they were head honchos, they had the opportunity to set the standard. And then you had Gen X come in. And then with Gen X, because They weren't as big as a, as a generation. As baby boomers, they had to really adapt. And this is how we can really see, talk about the nuances, the nuances of each generation. Right. With baby boomers, this is traditionalists, they are accustomed to, this was a big time for military as well. So during this generation, they're accustomed to taking orders and not saying anything back, but taking orders and doing. They do what they're told, they get the time off with no pushback. Right. Because that can be seen as a sign of disrespect or not respecting the leadership. Whereas then we get to a Gen X. Gen X is learned as the latchkey kids. And they started to have this. They created this culture of, they created as this culture of being able to do things on their own and being able to do things differently than how other people have done it. This is the Gen X culture is where of the first generations to experience dual family incomes or having both of their parents work. And so that impacted the way that they see and view what they believe that they should be doing. Right? And then you have a millennial generation who is coming in and sees things a different way. And mind you, the millennial generation also just became the largest generation ever. And then guess what happened starting in 2018, they became the largest generation in the workforce. Right? And so now we have also this Gen Z who is emerging, who's also taking from a lot of the millennial culture. Because of course, with the millennial culture, that's when social media was introduced. Now everything is social media, everything is virtual. We have. So it's like you have to keep up with these times, right? Where you have Gen Z, they grew up in this. It's natural to them. So if you're a company that doesn't have social media, then you're going to be obsolete to that audience, right? So it's understanding these nuances that we have within our workforce. And so the big, the challenge that we have is the transition of power from going from the Gen X and baby Boomers to now the millennial and Gen Zers. And the challenge that we have is that it is widely recognized that people are in their professional prime at the age of 40, 40 to 45 is what's believed that people are in their professional prime. So you have a lot of these companies, guess who their target employees are or were. There are going to be people in their 40s and 55. So guess who that's going to exclude? That's going to exclude people who are younger than that. Well, that also means that we're going to be excluding the largest number of people that we have in our workforce. So one thing I recognize in my research, and this is the funny part, out of the 11 motivational factors, my research has shown that there is a significant difference between the perception of Gen X and Millennial, specifically Millennial professionals. In all 11 motivational factors, all 11 significant difference, not a little difference, a significant difference. And another thing that was tied to that is there was no signs of significant differences between Baby Boomers and Millennials and Gen Z. There were some significant differences between Gen X and some Gen z and about four or five different variables. But it was striking that in all 11, it was only Gen X and Millennial who was like oil and water and what they want and in their perceptions of these 11 intrinsic and extras and motivational factors. So it just makes sense if that we, if we have in the masses that companies and organizations are creating their work environments to attract these Gen X professionals, that that may not be what's attractive to our millennial Gen Z professionals. So therefore we see high return over because with those generations, they not staying in a way that they don't want to, they don't have loyalty to people who they don't feel like are loyal to them. And so they're going to leave without hesitation, without thinking twice. It don't matter if they've been there for a week or two years, they gonna move on until they find something they like. And they will continue to move on until they find an environment that attracts them. And one thing that I find very interesting with this is that we can see this trend in a lot of industries that are big time money industries where the way you engage with your staff is going to be imperative. One thing I really see this in sports. You see now in sports, teams try to hire these younger coaches or these coaches who have better relationships with the youth or with younger athletes because they recognize that, oh well, you got to communicate to this younger generation or you got to communicate to these new athletes differently than the way you used to do it the old school way, right? The reason why they're making this transition is because it's billions of dollars on the line to produce a good team, right? And so what you cannot do is afford to get a coach who's like, well, I'm not going to teach it the way that they want it. I'm going to teach it the way that I grew up being taught it. Right? You can't do that because it's Billions of dollars on the line. And so you have to change your ways. That's going to be more most conducive to your, your end goal which is going to be retention, getting people to perform at the best of their ability. Right. And so we can see it in these other industries even like the tech industry, like you can be, if you know, if you know your stuff, you could be 15 years old and dominate if you know your stuff. We see, we see in gaming industry pick up, right? We're seeing 12 year old millionaires because they're really good at gaming. Like these are the things that are coming in our age and that we are seeing that we're being slow to adapt to because we want to feel like, well, you know, and I'm firm, I'm 100% about, you know, respecting our elders and respecting the things that come before us. But it's also about being able to identify and respect what's coming and trying to get ahead of that to ensure that, hey, even though we have a diverse population, what is our real target audience right now for employees who are really trying to attract, who's really leaving right now and that's impacting our organization. Who's going to be the future of our organization. So a lot of these things that I'm speaking to, we haven't even began to see the beginning. We're just scratching the surface of the problem. It's really going to be impacting us 10, 15 years from now when all of Gen X is moving on. Who's those companies gonna have for the concession? They didn't prepare no one down the line. It was, they don't have no one who's been working for that company 10 plus years anymore.

Wow.

So you're gonna have to get someone from the outside, right? These are the things that we're accustomed to. Like your CEO or you have higher up people in leadership who's gonna have worked with the company for 15, 20 years. I work for, I do. I go to companies and they have people who work with them for 40 plus years. You know, those aren't things you're going to see anymore. And now it's about how can you attract and keep these folks even if it's for five years. Five years may be seen as a plus. Like if we could keep somebody for five years, that's a win. If we can switch them to 10 years, that's even amazing. So how can we start being more intentional of how we want to retain our employees, especially our best talent, especially our young best talent that's going to help us with the longevity of our company and have continuity within the work that we're doing. So that way we feel comfortable. These organizations feel comfortable putting the leadership reins in the hands of these individuals who've been working with their company for several years, opposed to someone who's new or who's never been working with their company, who's an outsider. We're not really building up that continuity.

This is incredible. Quincy, what piece of advice would you give companies who are now realizing this is a problem that is just getting started? They might have thought that we are at the peak, but really we are at the Valley? It seems like it's going to become more of an issue as time goes on. What is one thing that companies can do to start to begin to transition in a way that creates a workplace that's more inviting, welcoming and inclusive of people of all generations?

I would say you have to develop an appetite for feedback. Oftentimes that may be some leadership team's biggest hang up, is that they don't really want feedback because they feel like what they're doing is good enough or because of what they've been doing, what they've been doing for so long that no, I'm not going to change it up to try to market to a younger audience. Because when someone hears a younger audience or they think of a millennial audience audience, they have this tag of this person is young, this person is a child, this person doesn't have experience, this person is inexperienced, right? And we got to get rid of that, that, that tie, that and that label, right? And that goes into having diversity, equity, inclusion, about eliminating labels. Don't look at someone. And the crazy part is we see our baby boomers who are experiencing the same thing, but just on the other end. Because now a set of millennials who may be perceived as inexperienced or too young, baby boomers are being seen as too old or they don't have it no more, or we need to take it out of their hands because they just don't know the new ways, right? So we put all this attention to this dominant group which right now happens to be the Gen X population because they fit within that prime professional age range of 40 to 55. And so if we have an appetite for feedback, we can then be searching for ways to gain feedback from these different groups. So that way we can be knowledgeable of how they feel and then be able to address those needs in those areas. And that's why it's so important for needs assessments that's why it's so important for having assessments to create a baseline understanding of where you are as an organization. So now you can be intentional about what you do to impact it, opposed to just trying all these various things that you hear other people doing, putting in bonuses, oh, you can do this type of work, you know what I mean? But they just try to do anything and everything in hopes that this is what's going to retain someone. But meanwhile you're just wasting a lot of resources because you don't even know what you're trying to change. And then two, you don't know what you're doing is what they want.

You know. Wow.

A good example that I like to tell people that I found in my studies is one of the 11 motivational factors that a lot of companies can identify as potential barrier or a challenge for employees. And their job satisfaction is going to be salary. Right? Salary is going to be huge. And oftentimes people feel like, well, if I increase someone's salary then they'll be happier or where people unhappy because they don't have a high enough salary. Right. And so what they try to do to combat that is, well, we are going to give them these bonuses or we're going to give them these stay on bonuses or these signing bonuses and things of that nature. And then we feel like if we give them this, then they're going to stay and that's going to be our investment on return. But as I said, these characteristics, these motivational factors have to have multiple perspectives. And so I've broken down salary into three different perspectives. I've broken down salary into one perspective of do you feel like you make adequate money when you're comparing yourself to your colleagues or to someone else who does the same position as you, do you think you're compensated fairly when compared to other people who do the same job? So that's one facet. Another facet I asked is do you think you get paid fairly for the amount of work you produce? Right. And that's going to be different because someone may say, well, I produce X, Y and Z, I produce more than what my counterpart produces, so therefore I believe I deserve more. Right? And then I ask them this third question. Do you feel like you make enough money to live the life that you deserve to have the lifestyle you deserve? Right. And then within an assessment, I can assess the ratings of these three things so I can see them how they feel about the aspects of salary. In my research, I recognized that people rated high in agreements that they felt like they were equally compensated when compared to other peers. So that was rated high. So they didn't feel like they were paid differently or worse than the next person. Then when asked the question, do you get paid, do you feel like you get paid adequately for the work you produce? They scored a little bit lower on that one because some people feel like, well, I produce a lot, I'll produce a lot of work. But no, I don't really feel I get paid to the, to the level that I produce. Now, the lowest rating of all those was do you get paid enough to live the lifestyle you deserve? And I specifically asked the question deserve opposed to want. Right? Because you can have people who want to be a millionaire, but just like, do you deserve to be a millionaire for all the work that you do? You know what I mean? And then so I asked this question, deserve, because it's one thing to feel like I don't live the life I want, and it's another thing to feel like I don't live the life I deserve because then you feel cheated on it.

Wow.

Right?

Wow. Oh, this is good.

Salary. Now, salary oftentimes is connected to work, life, balance or someone's really someone's lifestyle. Right? Oftentimes people feel like if I gain more money, if I get more money, if I have a higher salary, there's more pleasures I can now indulge in for my personal life rather, that is, I can now go on multiple vacations with my family, I can now purchase a home, I can do these extra things that this money is going to give me. But at the end of the day, it's really pointing at having or enhancing your lifestyle. So when you have companies who are thinking about, well, if we know people have a problem with their salary, then they think, well, can we afford to give someone a raise in salary that's actually going to be impactful to move the needle of them being retained. Right. Because it's not like giving someone a 25 cent increase for an hourly worker or giving someone a $5,000 increase for a salary worker is going to move the needle as far as them being satisfied or unsatisfied with their salary. Right. But yet you have companies like, all right, we're going to give $500 signing bonuses, but then you will count this up compared to all the different employees you have that you're going to be issuing without, that's going to be a lot of money compared to if we can find ways that we can enhance someone's life that can also impact how they feel about their Salary. So you see companies do these perks where they were like, we'll pay for your gym membership or we'll pay for this type of membership, or we'll give you $100 wellness perk every single month, right? So now someone is getting this money or this perk that they can then use to enhance their life or their lifestyle, which can then add to them feeling better about their salary because we now take up for that. And so for companies who want to have a better scale, it's going to be a lot cheaper for you to give your employees or offer, not even give, to offer your employees $100 or $150 monthly perk to then take up to do your membership. Opposed to trying to give that person a 3,000 or 5 or really a 15 to $20,000 raise to really help them push that needle forward. So save the money.

Wow, wow, wow, wow. Okay, so let's back this up. Essentially what you're saying is that a lot of times companies will realize that there is a problem and they will say, okay, there's a problem in the output, the conclusion. So they would say, all right, I will change this or that or this to solve for that problem. But if they don't do the research and they don't do the assessment and figure out what the problem really is, then they are going to be trying to solve for the wrong problem. They could spend way more money solving the wrong thing and then still have the same problems but a lot less money. Unreal. Unreal. Okay, this is. This is mind blowing. This is crazy. This is, this is crazy. And there we go. Our first episode on the multi generational workplace. And my head exploded.

Right, quick stat for you. I got a quick stat for you. Our country as a whole spends over $30 billion in rehiring annually. Our nation, our country spends over $30 billion annually in rehiring. Just imagine if we would, if companies would invest 10% of that into perk programs. You help with retention and you save money. If I don't know a company who will be down for that, then I don't know what they want to do there.

Wow, Quincy, my goodness. This is great. I really appreciate this. Before you go, let the listeners know about your company and how they can get in touch with you.

You definitely. So I have Quincy and Associates Global people have questions, we have answers. And that is my workforce development agency where I provide leadership training, diversity equity, inclusion training and assessment tools for companies and leadership teams to be able to assess and grow their awareness around diversity, equity inclusion and leadership, but really about getting the most out of their employees. And that's what Q and A is really about, getting them employees. And so I would love to put my. I don't know if I could put my email and contact information in the chat or have that be attached, but I'd love to do so. You can reach me at Quincy Q U I N C e y c pen p e n nmail.com or you can reach me at QA and A N D A global as well for emails as well.

Fantastic. Everybody. We're going to put links in the description of the podcast episode for all of those. And Quincy, I really appreciate it, man. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me on. It's been a pleasure.

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