Strategic Negotiation Preparation: Managing Variables in Negotiation with Michael Reddington

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Mike. Welcome back, my friend.

Kwame, thank you very much for inviting me back, man. It is always awesome to see you.

Yes, likewise. So, for those of you who might not know you yet, can you tell them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

I am your aspiring sidekick. Can we say it that way? Now, I'm a certified forensic interviewer and executive resource. So, very long story short, I parlayed a career of interview and interrogation into serving as an executive resource. I wrote the Disciplined Listening Method, and now I spend the majority of my time working with CEOs, sales teams, leadership teams, and even HR teams to teach them how to reduce missed opportunities and increase commitments to action by. By improving their strategic observation and persuasive communication skillsets.

I love it. And listeners. And Mike, I'm not gonna let you go without just a quick plug. Quick plug. Please plug your podcast.

Well, I will only plug my podcast because this guy I know was super, super, super generous with his time and agreed to come on and record one of our early episodes. So, Kwame, thank you very, very much for that. Yes, we are starting a podcast. It's called I See what you're saying, it's the discipline listening podcast and it really is all about gathering as many different perspectives on listening and persuasive communication and building relationships as we can. So we've got people from investigative backgrounds, from academic backgrounds, from social work backgrounds, from military, political. It's all over the board. But really the goal is to share as many stories, inside experiences as we can so people are learning to perceive and approach all of their high value communications in different ways.

Love it. Hey listeners, I will put a link in the description for Mike's podcast and so you can get in touch with him too for trainings. He is exceptional. And speaking of trainings, we want to take this podcast in a different direction. So Mike's been on the show a number of times, he's a fan favorite, so we always like having him back. And so today with this episode, we want to try to take it outside the box. And so we're going to talk about things that we wish we had more time to talk about in our trainings because we always have to prioritize, prioritize most important things, the most impactful things. But there's still some things that are critical that we don't get to talk about enough. So Mike, I just kind of want you to set the stage. Talk about the trainings that you and what you address, but talk about some of the things that you wish you had more time to address in the trainings too.

I appreciate that, man. You probably feel the same way. But it's layers and nuance. Like that's what I really wish we could get into is layers and nuance. So for the group, the majority of what I do falls under the banner of the discipline listening method. And these can range from keynote presentations all the way to iterative multi day, multi month engagements that generally focus on leadership, communication, sales and negotiation techniques or candidate interview. There's other iterations, but those are for now, those are the three general categories. And if we've got the longer workshops, that's awesome. We've got time to get into the details and customize and play around and do all the fun stuff. But as you know, the more people start to shrink down the time, they tend to shrink down the time, but they never shrink down what they want us to cover. So I always, you probably do the same. I love it when someone reaches out. Hey Mike, we're looking for a keynote presentation. We have this audience. Awesome. Really appreciate it. We've got 60 minutes, maybe could give you 75, but here's the 17 hours worth of content we want covered while you're doing it. And don't forget breakout sessions and questions and all this other stuff. So in the shorter presentation, you got to play the hits, right? So we got to give people kind of what they expect when they're coming in. We got to give them the core competencies or the core components that we want them to know, mix in some stories, keep it funny, keep it engaging, all of those things. But with that, it stops us from being able to dive into the layers. It stops us from being able to dive into some of the specific variations, and it certainly stops us from getting into the nuances, which I don't know about you, but for a nerd like me, can be maddening. I feel like I have a leash on is someone's trying to yank me off the stage. So I'll pause here in a second to get your thoughts before I dive into some of the examples. But for me to kind of pause my answer here, I feel like coming from interview and interrogation into business communication, people often just sort of stop the train at reading behavior and asking questions. And you could almost change reading behavior to catching people lying, which is bs, But I feel like that's really where the train stops and trying to really dive into the nuance, the details, some of the things underneath that that are so important really, is where a lot of the significant pivots in behavior changes come. But I'll pause there. This is your show. I know you have a lot of similar experiences, and then I can give some examples.

I love your answer because it's very validating, because I feel the same way every single time. One of the most frustrating questions, and I'm saying this in jest, one of the most frustrating questions I get from people when I'm kind of talking about different trainings and things like that, is, well, how much time do you want? And I said, don't ask me that, man, because I won't leave. I just won't leave. Just be here forever. But it's. It's really tough, and it takes a lot of restraint for a speaker because there's so much that we want to share. We do this because we love it, we're passionate about it. But in order to be a good teacher, there requires a lot of restraint because there's sometimes, with those layers that you're discussing, I want to go to that layer, but it will take me an extra four minutes to hit that layer appropriately. So I have to make a strategic decision in the moment to answer this question. In an abbreviated manner because the layer would actually lead to too much complications at that moment and not enough clarity. I just don't have enough time. So, yeah, I'm glad that you feel it too, because it's really challenging.

Richard. Dude, I grew up like when I started in this business, this part of my career, teaching two to four day interrogation seminars, eight hours a day, back to back, and I couldn't end those on time. There was always something else to share, another story, another example, another technique. So here I am on the flip chart of the whiteboard after the class leaves, working on different things with people. And now you try to get that into a 60 minute session and it's like, I need a shock collar. But to your point, it's. It's right. Like what stories do I tell or not tell? What examples do I give or not give? How do I answer this question in a way that is very respectful and attentive of the person who asked it, but limits Pandora's box a little bit and then, you know, how do I leave enough curiosity for the next invitation but not sell everybody short? Like, you're not just walking one type, you're jumping from tightrope to tightrope in a session like this. And I think I can speak for you as well. And I don't say any of this negatively. There are some people that go out and give keynote presentations and that is their 60 minute spiel. That's just what they do. They do the same thing every time. And that's cool. That's it. There's people like Kwame who go out there and they're like, you could literally introduce me at 9am on Monday and at 5pm on Friday, people are like, dude, we've been to sleep four nights. Is this guy taking a nap? So when you've got that much content, dialing it down and customizing it for every audience becomes the challenge and doing it in a way that is succinct and is powerful. I'm being long winded again, but we can start getting into some of those nuances and layers if you want.

Yeah, man, let's get into it. So when you think about the. That restraint that we've been talking about up on stage, what are those things that you often find yourself holding back on?

The most part of it is the strategic preparation. And I think this is probably right up your. We could beat preparation to death. And I know, especially in the negotiation world, you listen to some people that go to some programs and all they talk about is preparation and they never even get into the actual conversation, which, you know, there's a reason for that. But when we think about preparing, it's almost like watching sports, right? Tom Brady doesn't go out here and throw all these touchdown passes because he just got out of bed, kind of shook out the cobwebs and went out. Like, he's been practicing for how long he's been studying film. He's been prepared to be great in this moment. And I feel like so much of success in conversation comes down to variable management. Where can I really focus my cognitive resources? Where can I be prepared to listen, to act, to pivot? And it's not like I'm just doing it in the moment. It's all the preparation and practice that led up to that. So whether it is practicing a script, and I know people hate the word script, but there's real freedom in having a script, and the freedom isn't, I'm memorizing the script and I'm a robot, but once I've memorized the script, it becomes plug and play. Like, I can take words and phrases out I don't like. So now, instead of trying to create a whole new conversation, I'm only creating a couple new pieces within a conversation so that such an opportunity for people. I feel like diving into the strategic consideration. And you know this from all the negotiation prep work you do and the resources that you have for people. But there are so many different things that we could dive into. It's not just these. So what are their motivations and what are my motivations and what are their fears and what are my fears? And if we put them on a Venn diagram, where do they overlap and where are my low value giveaways and their high value takeaways? And like, all of this is good, but the nuances underneath that become so important. Where does somebody come from? How do they like to communicate? What are subtle ways I can begin to build rapport? What are little opportunities that we start to establish this relationship and they don't even fit. Feel it. Like, how do I understand where somebody's coming from in a way that they might not even understand it? So a lot of the preparation piece is one and real quick, I don't know if we've talked about this on your show before. My memory is faulty these days, as we were previously discussing. For me, if somebody ever comes to me and says, mike, I've got to talk to X person about Y topic, what's my. I wish I had that cookie cutter approach. You and I'D be having this conversation from our private island right now if we had that. There's really two sets of questions that we go through. Number one, what are my goals? Who do I have to achieve them with? And what is the context of the conversation I have to achieve them in? Once I have that, then I sit down and say, okay, with that in mind, what are all the reasons this person should not agree to what I need them to agree to? Not why should they? That's me transposing my bias expectations on them. Why shouldn't they? And if that doesn't hurt a little bit, I'm not doing it. Then once they answer that question. Now I'm going to go over to why haven't they already. Why haven't they already agreed to this? Maybe they didn't know it was an option. Maybe they don't see the value. They don't see the value. I got to unpack that. Now I'm going to ask myself, what do they need to experience before they choose to agree to what I need them to agree to? Because it's not about what do I need to say or do, it's about what they need to experience. From there, I'm just going to double check what's my goal and how does everything I say or do help me achieve that goal? So now, and I know I'm speaking your language, I'm probably not trying to win an agreement in one conversation. How many conversations with how many people and how many different locations over how much time? And where are the micro negotiations and the micro wins along the way? I can't play chess. You're a chess master. But how am I moving these metaphorical chess pieces over the board over time to get where I need? And I feel like these are the things that so many people overlook because when they're thinking about listening or they're thinking about reading behavior, it's a hack to people. That word makes me sick to my stomach to even just say it. But people are looking for shortcuts. And to do this the right way. It's the long cuts that create the perception of shortcuts. It's elevated situational awareness. That's another one I wish we could get into. It's understanding layers of goals, the layers of interpersonal communication. How do we move someone where we need them to be over time so they feel like it was their choice? One last thing and then I'll be quiet. I promise. I had a client there in the construction industry. They had a. I don't think I'VE shared this one with you before. I'm working with the GC. They had a subcontractor that created, like, a $200,000 problem in the project that needed to be fixed before they could continue this building. Am I allowed to use the same word twice in a sentence? That they were building this structure? And the call I got was, I need you to tell me what to say. Get the subcontractor to come to my office so I can tell them how they need to fix it. Hang on. The right answer to the wrong question is still the wrong answer. So I'll save everyone the miserable long version of the story. But basically, they were focused on what do I need to do to get a guy who's been ghosting me for a week into my office so I can tell him how bad this got screwed up and get him to tell me how he's going to fix it. That ain't never going to work. So very long story short, because this conversation went on for almost an hour, we workshop different perspectives and alternatives and how do we get here? And finally got it down to dude, you got a couple options. You can try to get them to come to your office. Good luck. That's like going to the principal's office, the police station, the kitchen table with dad. They ain't going to volunteer for that. Number two, you could go to the job site. Number three, you could go to their building. Or number four, you could take them out to lunch. And this guy literally looks at me, he's like, you want me to take him out to lunch? Like, dude, I'm not that smart. But if a $50 lunch solves a $200,000 question, get in the truck. What are we waiting for? So being focused on control and power and all these things, we're taking them down the wrong path. Being outcome focused and now thinking, okay, what do I need to do in order to create the outcome I need? What do they need to experience? How about I go to the job site, I invite him out to lunch. Now we're away from an audience that we need to grandstand for or we need to worry about managing our self image in front of. We go to a casual environment, we have a conversation like equal. And lo and behold, after lunch, the dude agreed to fix the problem. So these perspectives and understanding and like, getting into the weeds, as some people would say, it makes such a difference in these conversations. And as you know, we don't have time to do it.

Hello, my friends. I've got a really exciting announcement for you on August 30, 2023, we're hosting a negotiate anything masterclass in an amazing 28 million dollar residence in New York City. This is a once in a lifetime type of experience. It took a long time for me to negotiate the deal to get this location and I'm not sure if or when I'll be able to do it again. Seats are limited, so if you want to make this happen and you want to hang out with me in nyc, check out the link in the description to learn more. Oh my gosh. We need a new AI powered note taking tool for podcasters in the moment because the amount of notes I took was. It was astronomical and yet still insufficient. So let's, let's go over this. So I love your response talking about variable management in these conversations. I think that's one of the things that is a scary reality for people to accept, the fact that there's so many moving variables, it's impossible to predict all of them. And then you have to be able to pivot. But the preparation allows you to pivot in the moment. And I love what you said about scripts too, memorizing scripts. And I think. And you tell me what you think about this analogy. I've been struggling, humiliating myself in Whitney's dance class, her hip hop fitness dance class. So dance is on my mind and I'm thinking about scripts. A lot of times people have a bad understanding of what a script is because they think we're scripting the whole conversation, but that's not what we're doing. It's more like a good dancer who memorized a number of dance moves and regardless of the beat that comes up, you have different dance moves. You can move for different beats and so you don't exactly know what dance move is going to be, but you know you have it right. And so instead of trying to choreograph a whole conversation, just trusting that you have the right dance moves or lines memorized for specific transitions and things like that, I want to pause my summary there. I want to see if that, if that metaphor is hitting other than the.

Fact that I can't dance to save my life. Yeah, it's hitting perfectly and it makes sense. But you're right, I think a lot of times when people think about script, they think about rigidity. Marrying myself to this one thing every single time, and it's the opposite. It creates so much freedom. If I have to juggle three balls, that's relatively manageable. I'd rather just toss one up and down. But If I got to juggle three, you know, that's relatively manageable. You give me eight chainsaws, that's a problem. Start it. It's bigger. Light them on fire. I don't like where this is going. And that's a lot of times how people feel going into these conversations. What am I thinking and feeling? Where do I want to go? What are they thinking and feeling? What do they want to go? Oh, my goodness, what's happening? What am I seeing? What am I saying? We're concentrating on too many things. If I'm well prepared and I have my emotions under control, my outcomes already determined, before I go into the conversation, my script basically down, I'm removing the need to think. And now, because I'm removing the need to think, I can concentrate on everything you're doing. And now to try to come back to your dance metaphor. I can let you lead the dance. Because where I come from, if you need information and somebody else has it, they're in control of the conversation, not you. I don't care what your rank, title, position, salary is. It doesn't matter. So now I can let you lead this dance and I can follow you and react to your moves because I know I've got these moves based on my preparation. I'm not going to say it word for word necessarily. I can ad lib, but ad libbing and winging it are two different things. Ad libbing, adapting. I had a good plan coming in, okay. I knew it wasn't going to work the way I designed it, but now I can make these small adjustments to it while staying on course without having to think about it because I knew where I wanted to go before I came in.

I love it. And let's give some specific examples of what certain pieces of your script could look like to make it really practical for the listeners.

Yeah. So for me, going into. I'll stay away from interrogation for now, but going into the conversations that we all have, especially in business negotiation, business development, sales, whatever it is, I know it's the theme of your show. One of my all time favorite guidelines, we like to say illustrate before you investigate. I want to illustrate my understanding of the person, of the situation, of the context before I ever start asking a question for several reasons. Number one, it's really hard for me to create the impression that I'm a trustworthy expert. I do hate the word expert, but we'll use it for now if all I'm doing is asking questions. Yes, a good question helps people go, wow, this person is smart. But if all I'm doing is asking questions, I'm not illustrating any value that I'm offering to this conversation. I'm not giving you any reason to trust me. And by the way, I said stay away from interrogation. Clearly I lied. The people that we're talking to in business have been Mirandized as well because a lifetime of negotiating and a lifetime of purchasing has taught them that they have the right to remain silent because anything they say will be held against them at our very first opportunity. So as we're going through a question based approach, right out of the gate, we're setting off all these traps. And by the way, question fatigue is real. The more questions you ask people, the more they get tired of answering them. And if we're waiting to pop our important questions towards the end, I'm not saying we should ask the important questions up front. I guess a better way to say that is if I'm asking all these silly questions up front, by the time I get to the important ones, I've reduced the opportunity of getting valuable intelligence from them. So the way that I like to do this, to set up reciprocity, you've talked to Cialdini, you know, the seven automatic mechanisms of persuasion. We can literally use all of them with a relatively scripted introduction. So for me, I would love to open up with something like this. Kwame, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. I really appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation, but in the essence of time and out of respect for everybody's time, really just want to make sure that I have a reasonably accurate understanding of where we're potentially going. So please correct me where I'm wrong. We're going to come back to that. Please correct me where I'm wrong. Oftentimes at this point in the process, people are seeking us out because they are looking for. I'm going to give a couple of outcomes. Often while they're looking for these outcomes they run into. Now, I'm going to list a couple issues, problems, pain points that people run into. And as they're going through these pain points, they're also looking for these types of opportunity. It's going to differ a little bit, I mean, depending on the conversation. I've got some different scripts that I go into, but I'm literally going to start by the out of interest in everybody's time, respect for everybody's schedule, want to make sure I've got a reasonably accurate understanding. Please correct me where I'm wrong. People typically come to us because and I'm going to list three to five reasons. By the way, when I'm listing those three to five reasons, if I can see them, I'm watching which one of them draws a reaction and what kind of reaction it draws. So I've got a good idea of what they're thinking before they say anything. Then I can go through. We know that there's people can likely be in a problem solving, future seeking, or currently content mindset. Okay, fine. So I can give three problem solving reasons they might be having this conversation. I can give three future seeking reasons why they might be having this conversation. I can even throw things out there at this point that as they've spoken with other potential partners, they might have learned. So now I'm getting an idea based on their reaction. Who have they spoken with? What have they learned? Before we've even gotten into this conversation, I'm making it obvious that I'm credible. This isn't my first rodeo. I've got a reasonable idea of why we're here and what the process feels like for everybody involved in it now I'm more credible, I'm more trustworthy. I haven't asked a single question yet. But what I did before I started is I said, please correct me where I'm wrong. That word choice from if to where is critical. Dude, this is the closest thing to a silver bullet I have. When I say to somebody, please correct me where I'm wrong. Especially if they want to be the alpha, the bully, the leader in the conversation. How much of their attention do you think I have right now? A lot. Probably all, dude. I had one guy literally lean forward when I said that. Like, come on, that's what I want. Now I know they're listening to me. So when I go through that illustration at the end, I just stop. I don't even ask a question, I just stop. And I generally get answers in one of two categories. First, they come back and either say, you're right or you're not wrong. Credibility up. I resonated. Relationship in progress. I still don't say a word because remember at the beginning I asked them, please correct me where I'm wrong. The majority of the time. When they say you're right or you're not wrong, they continue and they start giving me information without me even having to ask for it. The opposite is true too. I would never coach someone to screw this up by accident. But as long as we're close, if they come back and say, you know what? Not quite. Almost close, bite through both sides of Your face because they're about to correct you. And when they correct you, they're going to give you so much information that you wanted and you don't have to ask for any of it. You've asked zero questions. Right now this person feels like they're in charge of the conversation, therefore they feel like they're in control. Their barriers are down. I haven't asked any questions yet. I gave a credibility increasing, rapport producing introduction to start the conversation. Now they've got the mic. I'm learning, I'm taking notes. Now I can see. Where do I need to pivot? Where do I need to adapt? What do I need to do based on this? So that's one of my favorite, like, introductory scripts to use going into many of my negotiation, business development conversations.

This has been a masterclass. This is so good. It's great. And listeners, this is one of those things. I always want to make sure that everybody remembers this. There's no limit to how good you can get at this skill. And so just that little correction there. Correct me where I'm wrong. Because I always say, correct me if I'm wrong. This is a good learning for me because it encourages it a little bit more. And, you know, tell me what you think about this conceptualization, Mike, because it's almost like we are enticing them to be that alpha, which makes them feel a little bit safer in the interaction. Because you think about any dynamic in a relationship, the person doing the correcting is the person who has control. Parents correct children, teachers correct their students, those type of things. So you're saying, hey, correct me where I'm wrong. So it helps them to feel safer in that moment. And it's almost like it's an empathetic challenge. Correct me where I'm wrong. I'm going to try my best to demonstrate how deeply I understand you. And I want you to tell me where I'm wrong, which helps me to understand you at a deeper level. So it helps them to feel more in control and safer throughout the interaction while feeding you the information you need to empathize at a higher level.

Amen. Think about it. Trust is synonymous. I'm sorry, Rapport is synonymous with trust. Trust is synonymous with vulnerability. By me saying, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm the arrogant guy at the start of the conversation. No offense, I know that's not you. That's how it can be. That's how it can come across. If I say, please, correct me where I'm wrong. Now I'm the humble, vulnerable guy at the start of the conversation. And to your point, their guard is down. And now while they feel like they're leading the conversation. Not always. Many times I actually am. Because as long as I know where the conversation needs to end, dude, I don't care where you started. You can start it anywhere you want, and I can nudge it, weave it, lead it back to where I need it to go over time. And the more control. I know, especially in the world of negotiation, control is something that is preached and fought over and debated over and all these things. But control is essentially the same as power and safety. If somebody feels like they have control of the conversation, they feel like they have the power, they feel like they're safe. If they don't feel like they have control, not always. Often people will feel the need to fight. So now the real negotiation isn't about whatever the agreement is, about who's in control. And that's. That's straight up a win, lose. Like, there's no expanding the zopa of who's in control of this conversation. Right? So for me, just right out of the gate, let's give the perception of control to somebody else. Now. We don't have to have this fight now. There's this negotiation within. The negotiation goes away. But because I'm well prepared and I've thought through some of these layers and nuances, I can let this individual feel in control, take the conversation wherever they want it to start, and I will use that to actually control the conversation and get it to where I need it to be.

I love this. This is great. And let's wrap up by talking about the idea of control, because you're right, this is something that comes up a lot of times in the negotiation space. And I think some people are afraid sometimes. O control. That seems Machiavellian and manipulative, those type of things. So let's talk about what you mean by control. Let's actually just address that part first and then expand.

For me, I feel like the more situational awareness we have and the better prepared we are, the less valuable the traditional perspective on control becomes. If I have a relative handle on the context of the situation, I know where I want to go, who I need to get there with all of those things, then I don't need to fight for control in this conversation. I know that we've both trained jiu jitsu. How many times have you walked into an academy and the black belt is literally sitting on the ground waiting for people to walk up to him for People looking at from the outside. That man's insane. Like, you're literally just going to sit there and let these dudes walk up to you, stand over you. But for the guy on the ground, you choose your first move, and I will show you why that was a wrong decision. Right now, I'm not a black belt, so, please. That's not me saying. That's literally how it ends up. And it's always funny to see with people that are new for the first time. Oh, this guy's sitting down. I'll just. Oh, no, I won't. Please stop. So in negotiations, I find so much of it to be true. If somebody is coming in and they want that fight for control, they want those rams battling on the mountainside, just don't give it to them. If I'm well prepared. I mean, you. You talk about being calm all the time. If I want to be calm, if I want to be prepared, if I elevate my situational awareness, I have a really good idea of where I want to go, where I need to be. Now, I welcome you to feel in control of this conversation, And I don't think it's Machiavellian. I feel like a lot of that comparison comes with the question of the moral or the ethics behind it. And everyone's going to have their own perspective there. There's not necessarily a right or wrong. Sure, I would love to live in a world where I could sit down and say, kwame, this is exactly what I want. But everybody knows that's not how the world works. I mean, you and I could probably do it to each other, but if we're just meeting people, we're creating these relationships. That's not how the world works. So how do I still find ways to be authentic, respectful, empathetic, while letting somebody else feel like they're in control of the conversation? And I honestly feel like the more somebody else feels like they're in control, the better it is for me. As long as I'm clear on the context of the situation where I want to go, what my options are.

Love it, man. You're so right. And just a little aside, when you're talking about that, the black belt sitting down, it's. It is so true. I remember my first class. I saw everybody rolling. I'm like a puppy. I'm like, I want to play, too. And my. The professor is like, I just don't want this guy to get hurt. Day one, they're like, hey, Jim's on the ground right there. Just try to pass Guard, just try to get on top of. He's laying back. I was like, okay, how hard could this be? It was like I was fighting a magical spider man. It didn't make sense. Could not accomplish that simple task. But you're right. When you have the skills and you understand essentially almost in a flowchart type of way, what direction you can go, it makes life a lot easier. Because a great negotiator, you need to embrace surprises. There's always going to be information or data that we didn't see coming, but we understand that it'll come in these specific realms, in these specific categories, upon a response to a specific type of question. So even though I might be surprised by the specificity of the data, I'm not surprised the way that I got it because I understand the optionality as I go throughout these conversations. I'm really glad that you talked about this because a lot of times people end up fighting for control, almost like an arm wrestling type of match. And it doesn't really get them anything other than a damaged relationship and bruised egos. And so just recognizing that there is another way to exert healthy control over conversation by allowing the other person to go first, which is part of your strategy, and then knowing that you have the micro scripts and the skills and the composure to adjust on the fly, then it doesn't seem as scary. And they can feel safe and in control and you can sit back and know that you're controlling the direction of the conversation.

And it also, I agree with everything and it also forces us to listen. If I'm the one trying to keep control of the conversation, then really what I'm listening for are opportunities to maintain control. Because that's what's most important to me right now. Whether I realize it or not, once I hand over control of the conversation. Now what I'm forced to listen for are opportunities for me to create unexpected paths to the agreement I want. So it literally reframes how we're forced to listen to the conversation. I'm no longer listening to dominate. I'm listening to learn. And now that I'm listening to learn, I'm probably going to walk out of here with some in a little bit different road to get there, which is okay, as long as it's within that initial framework that we had set up.

Yes, it makes so much sense because you're listening and then it'll. Those pathways will reveal themselves and you take advantage of those. So essentially it's kind of rethinking what control even is, because if you are, dare I say, a disciplined listener. So everybody shout out to Mike's book, Discipline Listening Method. So if you're a disciplined listener, listening is the center of control, because they're just feeding you data. And then if you understand how to read the data by listening effectively, then you understand the paths that they're giving you, the opportunities present themselves, and then you can respond and take the right path based on the data you receive.

Yeah, just listening for bridges. I'm listening for roadblocks to be broken. I'm listening for new roads to open. Just. You literally never know when somebody makes an offhand comment or an emotion leaks out or they throw out a new idea or whatever it is, and all of a sudden you're just like, that's it. That's what I need. But if I was trying to control the conversation, that opportunity never would have manifested itself.

Yes, and kind of going back to the. Deepening your metaphor, talking about nuances here, right? When you're saying, I'm looking for a new bridge to be built or a new road to be opened up, essentially what we're doing is we recognize we have a general idea of the destination we want to get to, but it's almost like listening to the GPS saying, recalculating, recalculating. Right. They're letting you know, hey, there's a roadblock there, but there's another way around it. But if we try to exert too much control and just try to choreograph the entirety of the conversation, now we're driving over bridges that aren't there, busting through detour signs and not understanding why we're making such a mess and not getting where we want to go is because the other person is trying to tell us that there's a detour here. This bridge is out. Turn this direction. But we're so focused because we're holding on to a. A predetermined narrative that we can't make those adjustments on the fly.

I love it. And we could even make a map versus GPS comparison if I'm just listening to that gps. Turn here, turn here, turn here, turn here. Now, I'm that guy on YouTube who just drove into the ocean because I was listening to the PS and not paying attention to where I was going. But if I have a map in front of me, well, if I was going to drive from Charlotte to Columbus, there's a lot of roads that'll take me there. Now, there's probably the fastest route. There's probably the most direct route. But depending on Any material number of things. Weather, traffic, time of day, construction, other places I want to go or see my emotional state, all of these things are going to impact that route. So instead of me getting lasered in on one track that I have to take, I know where I am, I know where I got to be. I know these are my priorities as I get there. So let's let the route choose itself as we go through the conversation. And I do think, to a surprising degree, we can choreograph a conversation. Now I'm going to go back to your dance metaphor. I don't have. I don't have to know exactly what every dance move is going to be, but if I understand conceptually, this is what this piece of art is supposed to look like, now I've got a reasonable idea of how my partner is going to react. As the song plays, as this beat plays, as the tempo changes, as I increase my situational awareness, I can begin to predict how other people will act as certain variables change. Now, based on that prediction, I can begin to introduce those variable changes or be prepared should they change. So that script that I had in the beginning gives me that freedom that I can pretty much predict how somebody's going to act beginning, middle, end of this conversation as different things come up. So now it looks like I'm adapting out of the blue, but really, I'm not. We were prepared for this. This was predictable behavior. So now I'm listening for those opportunities to adjust as necessary.

Oh, my God, this is so good. And this is why you'll be back on the show. I love it, man. This is great. Well, listen, before you go, make sure you shout out the the upcoming podcast. Remind them about the book, and then also the trainings and how they can get in touch with you.

I appreciate all that, man. Thank you. And thank you for having me. Dude, I love these conversations. Speaking of what we left on the table, we could do this till next week, and I'd still be having fun. But to let people know where to go. Inquasive I N Q U A S I v e. Inquasive.com is where they can find more about the training programs that we offer. Again, Leadership Communication, Sales, Negotiation Candidate interviewing, and all of the important breakout pieces from Strategic Observation, Persuasive Communication, Strategic Prep, all the things we talked about today. If they're looking to learn more about me, MichaelReddington.com would be the place to go. Michael Reddington, CFI on LinkedIn. The book, the Discipline Listening Method. How a Certified Forensic Interviewer Uncovers hidden value in every conversation. They can learn more@disciplinedlistening.com or they can go right to Amazon or Barnes and Noble if they'd like to get a copy. And thank you for asking. I see what you're saying. The new podcast launched. I don't know when this conversation will go live, but our new podcast will be launched in June. We've got 14 episodes in the can going through final production. You are one of the anchor episodes to get this thing up and running and going, and I'm grateful for that. But I see what you're saying. The Discipline Listening podcast will be on YouTube. It will be on all of your favorite audio podcast hosting channels. I'm really excited to get that launched as well. And thank you so much for being a part of that. And if you're willing to do it, we'll have you back on that show as well.

Absolutely, man. I appreciate you great insights today.

As always, I appreciate you. Thanks for having me, man. Stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

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