Strategies for Diverse Negotiation Styles with Paul Bolaji and Kwame Christian

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Paul, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, Happy to be here, man.

It's good to have you back. It's been like four years since you've been on the podcast, so let's do a reintroduction. Tell the listeners about yourself and what you do.

Right. So I am an M and A attorney. I work at a firm called Skadden here in Washington, D.C. and do M and A transactions represent clients, private equity firms, public companies, private companies, and all types of different mergers, acquisitions, and corporate transactions.

That's awesome. And listen. So listeners. Paul is one of my best friends, and so what often happens is when I have friends on the podcast, they're really humble. So let me throw him some alley. Oops here. Hey, Paul, is Skadden a particularly good law firm? How would you rate them?

Yeah, I think particularly in my field, in M and A, mergers and acquisitions, Scatted is one of the top firms.

I don't know where this humility is.

Coming from, but if I recall correctly.

It'S like one of the number one M&A firms in the country. So this is a big deal. And so the types of deals that you work on with mergers and acquisitions are pretty substantial. Can you give an example of what those deals, those look like for the listeners?

Yeah, so typically we'll represent a Fortune 500 company and we'll help them buy or sell part of their business to another Fortune 500 company or a private equity firm. And so typically our deals are valued anywhere between 800 million to $20 billion. The biggest deal that I've worked on was about 8 billion. But we deal with a lot of really big numbers in our deals. And so, yeah, it's just all across different industries, too. In healthcare in tech, in agriculture. I actually worked on my last deal at the close was representing a private equity firm and going into a joint venture with another private equity firm to buy like the biggest mushroom company in North America, which is so random, but it's really interesting. We get to do all, we see all types of things that come across our desks, guys. So it's a pretty cool, cool position, cool firm.

That's awesome. That is great. So yes, listeners that just want to make sure that you all know that we're dealing with an expert here today. And so this episode is going to be a little bit different. So it's going to be less directive in terms of telling you exactly what to do. Going to be more of an open conversation about negotiation styles, which would be cool. And so when I was talking to Paul before the interview started, he was talking about his approach to negotiation and then recognizing that different approaches are received differently from different people. So let's just start there and then we'll just chat from there.

Sure. So I think that I've had the most success in life, not just negotiations, but literally in any aspect of life when I am likable. So I generally try to establish some type of rapport with opposing counsel on these deals, whether it's finding anything you have in common to the same school or if we play the same sports. And a lot of times that's not fairly very apparent or obvious. So it takes a little bit of digging. But I try to find something that I have common ground with just to establish that. So I try to be likable. I try not to go in heavy handed on anything. And I usually always, I think I, the. My key kind of go to is just basically trying to be likable.

Yeah, no, I mean it's simple but often overlooked, especially in the legal world. Speaking as a lawyer, you know. And I think one of the things that's challenging about what we do is that we have high billable hour rates and a lot of times we want to be efficient to the detriment of the deals in question, you know, and so how do you balance that when you're trying to build rapport and the other side might be trying to push forward and get down to business?

Yeah, and that happens pretty often. So, you know, when that happens, I typically try to, you know, to be receptive to the fact that, you know, people's time is precious and that we are charging somebody else for the time that we're exchanging niceties. So I normally, I mean the thing about being personable I don't think that it takes very long to at least establish just the general baseline of report that I try to do in these situations. I mean, it's literally just, hey, how you doing? How's your Thursday? If it was a holiday weekend, how was your holiday? And then we get to business. So most of the time I think people will reciprocate, but sometimes it's kind of like a hey, cool, let's get started. And then I smile and then we just keep it moving.

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point to make because sometimes people feel almost like forced or obligated to engage in the chit chat and rapport building, which is important when the other person is clearly resistant to it. Like, you can't bully somebody into having a friendly conversation. That's just not how it works. And then if you do it, if you do that, it becomes weird. It creates a weird dynamic and the tension between you and the other side. And so what you're doing really is you're respecting them. They've clearly showed you how they want to be treated and they want to be more focused on efficiency. And so you acknowledge it and say, hey, it sounds like you want to move forward, so let's move forward. And you transition into business politely. So I think that's important because you're not forcing anything. Yeah. Now there are times when that works and the other person's, they engage in some chit chat. But then there are other times where somebody is, you're dealing with a force, you know, billions of dollars on the line. You run into some big egos and some big personalities and some strong personalities. So how do you, can you describe what those stronger, more difficult personalities look like in your world? Okay, no names, Paul, don't say any names.

No, no, I will not say any names or any firms. But there are some very notorious characters and individuals. And so I think the tough guys are particularly the ones who. It is literally straight business. It's not even a hello, it's not a good morning in email. It's not even like they don't even waste time in niceties via email. Get along in person. It's just questions, questions, questions, answer. I don't like your answer. Your answer is stupid. Why would you have this answer? And so a lot of times it's like when people come in very hot like that, you immediately feel like you're in a defensive mode. And it's hard, it's kind of rattling sometimes because it throws you off and because you're Instead of focusing on getting your points across and communicating your client's position, you're kind of just like, fighting for your life in those situations. At least it feels like it. So, yeah, it's. They're just very, very abrupt. Very. You know, they're. They're not really receptive to any type of gray area when it comes to, you know, to the deals or the work that we're working on, which is hard because there's a lot of gray area in deals. But sometimes people just want to be so focused on the black and the white that there's just very little room to even discuss the grays. So it's very difficult when you get those guys on the other side.

Yeah. And you highlighted a really important point. You said it can throw you off when people approach you in that way, and it feels like it's a fight. And the thing. The key word that I want to focus on is the feeling part, because we have the strategy that people are going to use, and then we also have, on the other side, the emotional impact of the strategy that people use. And so what often ends up happening is that we break rules. One of the fundamental rules of negotiation, where is. Where you never trade emotion for substance. And so, for instance, if you think about it in a very basic way, you think about a toddler. All right, listen, this toddler just threw a tantrum asking for candy. You don't give the toddler candy, because what you're doing is you're alleviating their emotional state and giving something up, but not getting anything in return but peace. Right. And then on the side, what often happens is that we trade substance for emotion in that we are feeling emotional, and then we give them what we want, what they want, in order to alleviate the pressure they're putting on us so we don't feel as bad. And so whichever emotional side you're trying to appease by trading substance for the emotion, it's still a mistake. And so I think it's really important to break down, like you said, the approach that people are using, and then the impact, the emotional impact it has on you, and the. The reality that a lot of times when you're under that emotional pressure, it makes it much more likely for you to make a mistake, and you. You voluntarily make these mistakes. So when you are faced with somebody like that, what are some things you do to make sure that you can hold your ground and keep control of your own emotions?

Yep. So it is a lot easier said than done. But I like to. I focus I find that it's very important, just like anything else in life, just to be really prepared, especially when you know what you're dealing with. If you've had a previous conversation and you realize, okay, this person is like this, then I just focus on being prepared and having my facts and my points that I'm trying to establish so that it's very clear I'm here to talk about X, Y and Z. I don't care that you're giving me a, B and C. We're going to talk about X, Y and Z. And I've also found that it's very helpful in those situations when you get somebody who's just not. Who's trying to win with emotion. I like to be silent and kind of just let them listen to themselves talk. I find that it's. It's a little bit disarming when somebody is being very aggressive with you and you just give them nothing back. And then what I found is normally they kind of, if they're. If they have. If they're emotionally intelligent, they'll kind of get to a place where they, like, realize, oh, my God, like, this is. This is a little weird, awkward, and then they'll tone it down themselves.

Okay, this is good. This is good because we talk about silence a lot, and I think it's something that people hear all the time. Oh, in negotiation, use silence. Use silence. Use silence. And again, easier said than done.

Very easy.

Because people are coming at you with absolute fire. Absolute fire. So when you're feeling that pressure to respond, because like you said, it feels like a fight. Sometimes we have that fight or flight response, and then we fight with our words oftentimes. So I'm sure there are times where you, like, there's something that you want to say and you hold back. So I really want to get into this mentally. In your mind, what is the process that you go through to utilize that restraint when you're under that much duress? Hey, everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial. Ok, I've got something for you.

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Yeah. I try to focus on my clients. A lot of times in these negotiations, it's not our clients aren't with us. A lot of times it's just us. And then our clients counter whoever. Like, if they're buying a company or they're selling a company, the principal's on the other side. They're their counsel. So it's literally knowing that I am an emissary. You're an emissary. At the end of the day, our client has sent us to discuss these things, and our objective is to get from point A to point B. Now, if we're not able to communicate and if I'm not able to address the points that we're trying to address, we both kind of end up looking dumb to our principles because we have to go back and report. And so if. If. I think good lawyers always keep that in the back of their mind when they're having these negotiations, because it's not my company, it's not your company. We're doing a job for someone, and so if we stick to the facts, the more we stick to the facts, the quicker we get things done, and our clients are both happy. And the cool thing about doing these deals is that it's. There's a lot of. I think there's a lot of room for both people, both parties to win. You may not win everything, but you can both. A lot of times, I feel like it's possible for my client to walk away feeling happy and your client to walk away feeling happy and to just try to find that. Focus on finding those areas. And knowing that this is a task that we've been sent to do is what keeps me from going off the deep end. It's like. It's. Have you ever seen there's, like, these memes where people go to Chipotle or these video memes, People go to Chipotle and, like, ask for, you know, a chicken burrito, and the person in the Chipotle line will give them, like, a little half spoon of chicken, and the person will get really angry and say, it's not your chicken. Give me a full spoon. It's literally, you didn't buy this chicken. I'm here. So I always think about that. It's like, focus on what's here in the job that we're supposed to do. Let's not get emotional about things that aren't directly affecting us. And, you know, focus on the task at hand.

I love this. I love this. And now that's going to be in my mind all the time.

It's not.

That's hilarious. And it makes a lot of sense. And so let me. Let me zoom out a bit for the listeners, because not everybody's going to be an M and A attorney. Not Everybody's negotiating these $8 billion deals. But we all have situations where we are confronted with people who are demonstrating bullying behavior who try to steamroll us, and we need to figure out how to do it. And really simply, your strategy is twofold. Focus and depersonalize. So you're here for a specific objective. Whatever that objective is, we have to figure out what that thing is and stay laser focused on it. And then just ask ourselves, hey, is this behavior is respons emotionally in this moment? Is that going to get me closer to my objective? Most likely not. So it keeps you focused, and that's really important. And then personalizing it is great, too, because you're saying, hey, at the end of the day, I'm not. It's not my money. It's. I'm here for my client. And I used to think that too, all the time with my client. I was like, at the end of the day, it's not my problem. I want to help. I want to help you solve your problem. That's what I'm here to do. But I can be emotional, a bit more emotionally detached if I realize it's not my problem. And so if we can find ways to make sure in whatever difficult conversation we're having, to figure out what it is our goal is and focus on that and then depersonalize the situation, then our emotions are going to have less of a negative effect on our ability to handle ourselves in these conversations.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I like that. Focus and depersonalized. I did not realize that my strategy had a name, but I like that. Now you do.

Now you do the Paul Balaji special now. So let me ask you an outside the box type of question, because I want to think about this in a unique type of way. So we have a lot of different people on the podcast, and I remember one time I had a guest on the podcast who was. He was 6 foot 6, and he never really had a problem with being bullied in a difficult conversation. And I asked him, hey, what if you were 5, 6, do you think people would respond differently? And he's like, I've literally never thought about what that would be like. And so I have one of my friends, Alex Carter, Alexandra Carter, who wrote a really great book on negotiation. I think she's about 5, 2, 5, 3. And in one of her LinkedIn posts she's like, when I enter a negotiation, people don't see me coming. No, literally they don't. I'm very small, right. And so that's going to have some kind of impact because the way that Alex Carter would negotiate, which is exceptionally effective, is going to be received differently than the guy who's 6 foot 6. Right. And so I hate that I'm saying this because I hate feeding your ego, but for people who are just listening to the podcast audio style. So Paul is, Paul's a really strong guy. That's all I'll say. And I'm not giving you any more than that. So do you think that that has an impact on how people receive you during negotiations?

That's a really good question. I think that in my, particularly in my line of work and especially as of late during the pandemic where everything was by phone or by video.

I.

Don'T think it's really come into play very much because people don't. The people that know about my size are the people that I work with in my office. So like, I'm not adversarial with them. So it's very rare that you know that there's the counterparty in any of our deals is going to see me in person and to be able to. And granted, on video sometimes, you know, my little arms might, you know, show up in the, in the, in the video, in the video feed, on a Zoom or a webex. And a couple of times I've heard, I've kind of, you know, people ask me like, hey, dude, so you know, when you're not doing deals, like what NFL team do you play for? Just kind of as a joking thing. And we use, anytime I get one of those, I use it to build rapport. We typically end up having good conversations, but fortunately for. I don't know if it's fortunate for me or for them, people don't. And I really intimidated by my size and negotiations.

Okay. No, I'm literally just wondering because again, when you think about bias, we recognize everything has an impact, right? Your race will have an impact, gender identity, all that type of stuff will have an impact. And so I think it's cool to explore that. The other thing that I realized too is, as a larger black man, is that I know that sometimes if I get animated, it can be taken very aggressively. And so a lot of times I recognize that, okay, it can be an asset because it's very rare in my experience where I have felt bullied in my professor professional career. That's not everybody else's experiences, especially when I talk to other guests who are women on the podcasts. Also, I realize that when I'm animated, I have to kind of pull back to recognize that, you know, might make people feel uncomfortable. So it's just an element, because your approach is going to also be filtered through how it comes through you. So the same person, two different people saying the exact same thing will be perceived very differently.

Yeah. And you're making me think of this deal that I did where we had. I mean, it was kind of. It was a really difficult deal in terms of, like, the personalities that were involved. And there was a lot of back and forth, and toward the end there was a client. So every once in a while you'll do something called an all hands call. And so it'll be all the parties, so it'll be me and my client, and then it'll be at the counterparty and their lawyers. So everybody's on call during the pandemic. We're on Zoom WebEx. So you have like 20 tiles of folks on the screen. You can see everyone. And when one person is talking, it'll kind of narrow into that person and you see that person talk. And our client, the CFO of this company, had these very like, the only way I can describe this is it was a very aggressive handlebar mustache. Okay. And so. And he was also. He was very. You know how he had a very strong personality. And so, you know, when he would get going and start talking, you know, you just. His face is on the screen and you just see this mustache just going, just kind of vibrating, jumping when he moved. And it was kind of. If I was on the other side of that, I would have. I would have. You know, I think that it made him come across even more aggressive. And I don't know if you. I feel like he may have known what he was doing, because, I mean, it was very cartoony. I mean, think about your 70s, Sam. Like, that's the type of mustache that we're talking about. So, I mean, I think he did it on purpose because why? Why else? You know, so that is the point. I think that I have actually seen, that's just an example. But I've seen people, you know, try and whether it's, even if it's not like a particular physical feature, they'll have something or they bring something with them to kind, to try and bolster their personality and their strength when they're having negotiations. And for me, I just don't think that part of the reason, like you said, is like, we're black men and we already can't, especially as you know, we're in the six foot club. We've got decent sized biceps on us. We can't just walk around flexing at people, especially in corporate America. So I mean that's, I haven't found, I don't find that to be a useful tactic. And it is something that I'm also very aware of when I'm having conversations with people, especially when they can see me and we're having conversations that, you know, where we're not seeing eye to eye on something. And even if they start to. And this is not that I'm thinking about this, I'm wondering if kind of subconsciously. And this is, this is part of what has helped me just kind of develop this focus and depersonalize strategy because I just, I don't ever want it to be that, oh, this big black guy just yelled at me and bullied me. And it's something that, I mean, I've, you know, this growing up, like we've always been generally, you know, in the population of people that are bigger than the other people around us in our immediate vicinity. And so, you know, there's, there's a certain level of self awareness that you have to have in that situation.

So definitely no, this is, it's helpful. And one of the things that came up in one of my negotiation trainings I did actually it was with lawyers, the Ohio State Bar Association. It was right at the beginning of COVID like weeks after everything was shut down. So talking about virtual negotiations was really important. And one of the people who was in the training saying, I love this, this is great. I don't need to see people in person anymore because one of the things that they said is I have a, I have a very soft voice and I'm smaller too. And so it's hard for me. I don't feel as though I get that same respect at the negotiation table in person. But I found it a lot easier to negotiate virtually. And I do a lot of email negotiations up front to, to establish repetitive rapport and set boundaries. But then Then I would transition on. On to zoom. And they actually felt more comfortable just not having the camera on for these reasons. But you can do things with your camera angle, so nobody knows your size, too. So the. Yeah, like zoom is zoom and just video calls, those type of things. It's kind of levels the playing field to a certain extent with some of those physical dimensions. And again, I think the reason why we have to explore this is because it matters. Because when I was talking to a former FBI agent, Joe Navarro, when he was on the podcast, he's the author of what Everybody Was Thinking. It's a body language book, great book, and another one called Be Exceptional. I asked him what is one thing that most negotiators, most everyday business negotiators, don't understand about negotiation? And he says they don't understand that everything matters. The way you walk, the way you talk, the way you introduce yourself, all of these things, every single thing that people are perceiving matters. So I think some people might listen and it might sound like our conversation has become superficial, but it's not. Because even though these things we could say theoretically or logically should not matter, we don't live in the theoretical world. We live in the real world, and psychology is real, and people are going to perceive things differently. And one of the things that I started doing is after tough conversations with people is asking them how I made them feel during the interaction. So not like, what did you think about what I said? I'm saying, how did I make you feel during it? And I've been surprised, Paul, because sometimes I thought, like, I handled it well and treated them respectfully, and they're like, no, I felt like you dominated that conversation. No, I felt like you belittled me in this way. And I was like, I was trying really hard to be empathetic. And I would. Instead of getting defensive, I would say, okay, tell me more. Was it particularly what I said? Was it the words that I used? And they. Sometimes it's. No, it's your tone. It was the tone. It was the, like, the way that you said it. It's like, okay, this is interesting. So I think it's important, whenever possible, to get that feedback to see how what you're saying is perceived. Because sometimes if you just look at the transcript of what was said, it doesn't tell the whole story because the perception is going to be different for different reasons.

Yep. No, that's. That's true. And there's that. I can definitely think of a few times where I have in Talking and being on the other side of that, not being the person who has, you know, asked for feedback, but who has been asked for feedback and realized that somebody thought that they were saying something. The words that they said were the words, but the way they said it was told a completely different story. So that's absolutely real. And I come across that all the time.

Oh, yeah. So that. That's why it's so important to get training, to get feedback.

And even with my wife. Oh, my gosh, you know.

You know, worked super. We.

I know you.

You probably get this, too. We work super hard for our law degrees, and now all of a sudden, when they say you're acting like a lawyer, it's an insult.

Bro. My wife, that's like, her. It's funny because, like, she'll say. And sometimes it's made me have to really stop and think because, like, you know, when they tell you you go to law school, they say it changes the way that you think. Yeah, like, that's what everybody told me. Law school just changed the way you think and will change the way that you process information. And, like, it actually has. And in a way that it's hard to even, like, distinguish it, to see it, but other people can see it. And so my wife will tell me all the time if we're having. Not all the time, but in certain instances when we're. We're having a disagreement or something, or even if we're just talking, she'll be like, hey, could you stop lawyering me? Cool. Thanks. And I'll. My first. My first instinct is to say, prove it. How was I lawyer? What did I. Exactly what did I say? And then when she tells me, I'd say, you know what? A reasonable person would not have been offended by that. And, of course, that goes nowhere downhill.

We have to learn how to turn it off. This is great, man. I appreciate this. This has been really helpful. And now for the listeners, before you go, can you know, again, how to connect with you? Maybe LinkedIn and just a reminder of who you are?

Oh, yeah, sure. So I'm Paul Balaji, and you find me on LinkedIn. Just Paul O. And then Balaji is my last name. B, O, L, A, J, I. I'm happy to chat with anybody who's interested in law school. Anybody who's interested. Got work that I could possibly help you with or my firm could. Like I said, we do have a little bit of expertise in M and A. So happy to connect.

Perfect. Thanks, brother. Really appreciate it.

Thanks, Kwame.

Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

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