Strategies, Sales & Success: Unlocking the Secrets of NYC Real Estate Negotiations with Jason Christie.

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right, everybody. Welcome to Negotiate Anything Live. As you can see, I'm here with my friend, my, my better looking brother from New York City, J. Jason. So how about we. Actually, let's, let's, let's warm up the crowd a little bit. I like to give people an opportunity to, to, to fill in. Just put us, put some notes in the comments, let us know that you're there, let us know where you're coming in from. And then knowing that this is going to be on the podcast and on the YouTube channel and everything, Jason watched me put on my influencer voice. Hey everybody, smash that like button and subscribe to our channel for more amazing content like this. And if you're listening on Negotiate Anything, thanks for joining us. Subscribe to the pod. Please leave a five star review. If it's not five stars, we don't want to hear from you. Just kidding, just kidding. Just shoot me an email. You know, just don't decimate my I'm.

Having a surreal experience because you may not know this, Kwame, but in my morning podcast routine, it's NPR's Up first, and then it's immediately negotiate anything. And I hear. Why don't we start off by you telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do. That's so funny. And it goes right into the hidden brain.

Listen, I'm in. I'm in good company. That's amazing. That is amazing. You got me up there with Shankar Vedantum and the NPR folks. I like that. I like that. Hey, we got folks from the Netherlands. Faustina, thank you for joining us from Rotterdam. I'm actually going to be in the Netherlands next month for a bit. You're back.

You're. You're back. What just happened there? I don't know.

I was frozen.

You were frozen.

You know that. You know that Spider man meme? Whereas the Spider man pointing at each other. Yes. You were frozen. You were frozen. I like that. Five stars for two stars. Thank you. Good. We have South Africa. We got the Netherlands here.

I love South Africa. One of my best friends in Time on Taiwan was from Bloemfontein, South Africa. A lot of South Africans living in Asia at the time.

Well, as we get some people in, I'm seeing some people come in. I think a fun way to start, just to humanize you. There we go. That's exactly what I was going to talk about, man. Can you tell us all the places you've been? Because you're. You're all over the world, man.

Yeah, I know. And it doesn't mean that I'm unreliable in my youth.

So.

I mean, I'm Jamaican, Right. I was born in Kingston, Jamaica, and then I moved from Kingston to Fairfield County, Connecticut, which is why I sound like this. And I'm really upset about it because. But from. From Connecticut, I moved to New York City after, you know, college. That's what we all do. I've lived in Boulder, Colorado, then back to New York City, and then after September 11, when the towers came down, I was living here at the time. Time the city got a little crazy. And this new job that I was supposed to start had a hiring freeze, had some cash saved up and a lot of time on my hands. So I always wanted to learn French. So I moved to France, and I spent about a year living in Lyon. And then I just got used to, frankly, not working. Misspent my youth, spent all of my money, and I still wasn't ready to come back to New York.

City.

And one of my very, very closest friends from high school was teaching English in Taiwan, someplace I, no knowledge about, had no curiosity about. And he said, come and check it out if you don't want to go back to New York. You can always leave, you know, if you don't like it. And I wound up spending four years there. I was having such a good time.

It's amazing. Very cool, Very cool. And yeah, if you check out Jason's last time, it was on the podcast, we were talking about cultural intelligence in negotiation, because all of that background helps him to flex as necessary in the New York real estate market, which is what we're going to talk about. And before, I want to make sure we get a shout out in. Listen, if you. If you want to hang out with me and Jason and in New York City. Oh, yeah, check it out. Next week, we'll be there hosting a master class and an amazing property. Jason, my friend, thank you for that hookup. It's going to be super exciting.

Not just an amazing property, a duplex penthouse at the Baccarat Residences here in New York City. So it's going to be. We're going to be surrounded by luxury, and we're going to have Kwame delivering his master class. It's going to be really, really extraordinary. And we're so excited.

I love that. Yeah, man. Hey, actually, Simone, if you could drop into the chat the link to the event for anybody who's interested, that'd be great, so they could get easy access to it. And for those listening on the podcast, we'll put the link in the descript. But, yeah, let's set the stage. I think the audience is here, all over the world. We got Pakistan, South South Africa, Saudi Arabia, Arabia, Jamaica from Casey Marie. This is great. Yeah, so we got. This is great. We got a diverse audience here. So, yeah, man, let's. Let's be on brand. Jason, thanks for joining us. Tell us about yourself and what you do.

My name is Jason Christie and I live in New York City, and I am a real estate broker with a firm called Sirhand. My business encompasses four out of the five boroughs, so Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx, and sometimes even Westchester, where I have clients. And New York City being what it is, you know, my clients are from all over the world, from all socioeconomic backgrounds and a wide, wide range of personalities, languages, cultures, et cetera. So being successful in this business, you know, it takes a lot of cultural fluency and a lot of great negotiation skills as well.

Absolutely. And let's dig deeper. Into what makes the New York City real estate market so unique. You touched on a few of those things, but I really want you to paint a vivid picture for the folks who have not lived that life.

Yeah, I really almost don't know where to begin, Kwame, because, you know. So let's start with the fact that the US dollar is still like a reserve currency, right? So a lot of foreign nationals who, who have money to park and are looking for safe places to park that money, they think New York City real estate, you know, it's an American city and you know, the returns here on properties are amazing. And on the one hand that's like super, super great because there's a lot of high net worth individuals here spending that capital. And for people whose business it is to trade property, you know, that's good, you know, good for business. There's, you know, a flip side to that as well. A lot of the empty apartments, people not really living in them, Billionaires Row has, you know, towers with, you know, hundred million dollar apartments sitting empty because, you know, they're just there for investments. But for my bread and butter, it really comes down to knowing how to communicate with and manage people from a broad range of backgrounds and cultures. And in my experience, the higher the net worth of the individual, the more they believe that rules don't apply to them and you're just going to do what they say and get them what they want. And that doesn't fly always in a place like New York City, especially if you have to buy in a co op, for example, where you essentially have to be interviewed to be allowed to purchase in the building. That could be a rude awakening for a lot of people.

See you, you've kind of, you've touched on something casually that is kind of mind blowing to a lot of people because that's a, that's a really interesting nuance that most people aren't familiar with. So let's first go into that psychology, this psychological aspect of if you come in with power, you come in with money, you're used to being treated in a certain type of way. Oh, for sure. And then talk about the process to get into some of these really exclusive properties. Hello, my friends. I've got a really exciting announcement for you. On August 30, 2023, we're hosting a negotiate anything masterclass in an amazing 28 million dollar residence in New York City. This is a once in a lifetime type of experience. It took a long time for me to negotiate the deal to get this location and I'M not sure if or when I'll be able to do it again. Seats are limited. So if you want to make this happen and you want to hang out with me in nyc, check out the link in the description to learn more.

Yeah, I mean the expectations are different. I don't know what it, what, what it's like to be a billionaire, but I imagine a lot of the rules don't apply to you a lot of the time. So when you come to a place like New York City and you're being told you have to show proof of income, we understand you want to buy this $40 million property, all cash, and we understand that you have billions of dollars, but we need to show proof of income to the people that are selling it so that we understand who you are and that you're able to make this transaction. And you know, a lot of time they're just like, I don't have to do that. Google me. You want proof of my income? Use Google. So the negotiation can start from the very beginning, you know, building the itineraries. You know, everything is going to be at their whim, everything is going to be at their convenience. And they really expect every step of the way to be treated in a manner that's just different than you and I expect in a day to day.

That's so fascinating because on, on one hand we could look at this from maybe a philosophical virtue based perspective and say, hey everybody, we're, we are all equal and we should treat everybody equally and things like that. And then we can look at it from the practical perspective because the billionaire hypothetically could say, yeah, I mean that's nice, but I disagree and I have leverage. And so in those types of situations, how do you still negotiate and carry yourself in a way where you can leave with your self respect intact?

Exactly.

Still doing what it takes to, to get the deal done.

Exactly. I think it comes down to confidence number one with how you, how you speak and communicate with people like that. It helps that I have the track record that I do. I've been in commission based sales for the better part of 30 years and I've sold everything from shoes when I was a teenager up to commodities at the highest level as an adult. And when I got into real estate, I hit the ground pretty quickly and quickly established myself as a pretty successful broker. So just having that track record and knowing who I am and what I bring to the table and having all of those transactions under my belt is a really important point of reference. Because sometimes in these conversations, these Clients can be so brazen and so bold that you almost forget that you're the expert in the conversation. You know, I'm not a billionaire and I maybe don't have an experience building a multinational corporation that earns that type of lifestyle. But, you know, I'm selling hundreds of millions of dollars of real estate in this city every year, and I understand what that takes to succeed. So there are times when you have to know when to step back and let their ego have their moment and lead. And then there are times when you have to know when to step up and say, actually, this is how this is going to go. If you want to win and let your expertise shine, this is great.

And there, there are a couple of things I want to pull out from this. Because your confidence shows in how you speak and how you carry yourself. For sure, you're not using let's, let's distinguish between confidence and arrogance, where you're trying to like, impress upon somebody else, where it's almost like you're forcing it. It's like, no, you can see it. I carry myself different. Not just the fact that you can see this and I'm making a choice to carry myself this way, but when you gather enough proof for yourself through your experience, you can't help but carry yourself in a certain way. And I think a lot of times when it comes to the, the authority or power within an interaction, we think it is a zero sum game where either one person has it or the other person has it. It's one or the other. But what you've shown is, hey, listen, I might not have built a multinational billion dollar company, but I still have a lot of value because I've sold hundreds of millions of dollars, dollars in real estate in this city. This is your first time here, right? And so you can still approach this by creating mutual respect. You didn't need to tear them down. What you did is you said, hey, no, you are right. You have the right to carry yourself with swag because you are an impressive person and I'm an impressive person too. And we're working together toward the same goal.

Right, Right, right, right. It's a bit of an ebb and flow, you know, where you let them lead when there's a natural way for that to happen, and then you lead when it's necessary. I'm involved in the two of these transactions right now, actually, and it's been very, very, it's always very interesting.

Let's talk about that dance. Because I think on a theoretical level, we can understand all right. Sometimes we have to let them lead, sometimes I lead. What does that look like, and how do you make that decision?

Well, I think the most common example of that would be when it comes time to make the offer, they find the property that they want to own, and now it comes time to make the deal. And you might gather that high net worth individuals don't like paying sticker prices regardless of the market conditions, whether it's an up market or a down market. Irrelevant. They want the property and they don't want to pay full price. So they're usually very, very aggressive in their negotiation tactics and approaches. And, you know, ultimately, at the end of the day, my job is to educate and inform, but that is my client, and I have a fiduciary to them, and I'm going to ultimately present the offer that they want to present at the end of the day. So it takes a little bit of massaging. Another reason it pays to work with someone that has experience in the industry and in that location is that I also have the relationships right. New York City is a very big city, and the real estate markets here are quite large. But you'd be very surprised that the number of agents that are actually transacting and creating the greatest volume of business, it's pretty small. And the same can be said for the lawyers. We all know each other, the home inspectors, the contractors. It's a pretty small community, actually. So chances are that the broker on the other side of the transaction, it's not the first time that we're meeting each other across a table or across the deal, and they know what time it is as much as I do. And if I'm coming in with an aggressive number, I'm not going to give away. I'm not going to have any towels and give away any hands. But I do have to use some language to let them know that we are not being disrespectful either. So some things I might say is like, you know, this is. My client has authorized me to make this initial offer, and that might be a way of softening the blow or signaling to the other side that we're aware our numbers might not have much bearing on the comps, or that's a reality.

This is great. And I. I love the subtlety of that approach, too, because you recognize, hey, all right. I know I'm coming in a little bit hot, but I at the same time, need to let the other side know that I'm here to negotiate a similar type of relationship that us as lawyers can have with our clients too, because we are, we work for the client. We have to do what they say they're going to do, but we also have to do what's best. And, and sometimes that requires us to soften the blow in a really, a really nuanced type of way. It's like we are, we're sending smoke signals to the other side, like, hey, you know what I really mean, right, when I say this. And then they pick up on that. And one of the terms that you use that I want to dig in on is aggressive, because that's the stereotype of New York City business and real estate in particular, aggressive. And I want to draw out that distinction because you're going to deal with aggressive clients who you are on the same team with. And so they're, you're working for them, but they can still be aggressive with you for sure. Then we want to talk about how that strategy shifts when you're thinking about negotiating with other realtors or brokers.

KWAME it's even crazier than that. I have, I might represent clients where they are the seller, where they take one position and then on the very next transaction they are the buyer and they take the complete opposite position. So when I represent them and they're selling a building or a property or an opportunity, you know, they want to be super aggressive in, you know, demanding high prices, right? So that they have the highest possible, make the highest possible margin on the transaction and they're aware of all the pitfalls. Of course, we go through a very detailed conversation and strategy about how this is going to be perceived for your buyers. And, you know, we take our licks and ultimately we get to the finish line, the deal is done. And then now they maybe want to reinvest that cash and they are the buyer. And suddenly everything they told me for the last, you know, 60, 90 days when they were the sellers, they now believe the 180 degree opposite of that and want me to act as such. So it's like when we were selling this market, Jason, we wanted to get the highest possible number and these are our justifications. Never mind what the comps say. Now that we're buying here, we're saying the opposite. Go get them.

So first of all, that's hilarious. It's hilarious because I'm not in that situation. So first, let's get that out of the way. But second of all, that's got to be really challenging because you probably just want to like, like share, shine the mirror on them and say, excuse me, sir, you just said the exact opposite thing. Yeah. So how do you approach that?

Well, I, again, I educate in a form and I basically spell it out and I say, I just want you to be aware that the number that we're coming to market has no bearing on the actual comp. So, like, every transaction of this size in this location in the last six to 12 months has sold for X and we are, like, above that 15%. Further, you'd also like to sell this property in a short period of time, and you also want to give me the exclusive agreement as the listing agent on this property for, you know, 45 days or 60 days, which is a shorter period than the standard 90. So I just want to be clear of what you're asking me to do and what the challenges are, and I spell that out. So a price, you know, that is higher than the market, a time frame that is shorter than the standard, an agreement that is shorter than the standard. You know, if this is the way that we're going to proceed, this is what we can expect. Based on my experience, we can expect that the feedback from the market will be slow, that our listings will languish in the marketplace, there'll be very little traffic, and anyone that does call will immediately assume that you're going to be a very difficult person to transact with. Now, I'm down for the job, you know, I'm here for it, but I just want us all to understand up front exactly what we're doing and exactly what the challenges are ahead.

I love that approach, because what you're doing is you're letting the data decide.

Yeah.

Essentially saying, hey, this is what it is.

Yeah.

If we're all on the same page, we can move forward. And I think a lot of times when somebody's presented with an unreasonable request, they respond emotionally. Yeah, I'm going that. That was unreasonable. So I'm going to match that same energy or exceed it. But tell me about the. The persuasive value of being able to articulate your thoughts like that without losing your cool in that. That tough situation.

It's funny, you know, I find that when people are sort of pushing me in a corner and they're using aggressive language particularly. I actually like it when someone loses their cool or their temper with me and they say something that they know is rude or just unprofessional, I actually kind of relish those moments because, you know, whether it be by virtue of my experience in the business field or all the stuff I do in my personal life, like my Meditation practices and all of that, I know not to react. And what I love is to be really quiet, actually, for a long ish moment and let that last word or those last phrases just sort of hang in the air and let them just deal with. With exactly what they just said. So I take, I'm really a fan of the pause along, perhaps uncomfortable pause to let everything just sort of sink in. And then I go on as if, you know, it didn't matter what they just said.

So everybody, just a quick note. If you're negotiating with Jason, be very rude because he likes it. Okay, number one. But thing number two, when it comes to the, the silence, we always hear that advice. Hey, great negotiators utilize silence as strategic silence. We hear that all the time. But they don't. When people give that advice, they don't talk about what makes it so hard to execute a strategy that's so simple. And it's confidence, it's fear. It feels uncomfortable. So it circles back to what you said at the beginning. You have a lot of confidence, and that confidence comes from experience because you know there's no negative consequence for you absorbing in that silence. And then this, this is also sending a very clear message to the other side, too, because they just hit you with a haymaker that most people would have responded with emotionality. Because here's the thing. It's like, if we often think that in the, in the heat of the moment when somebody says something offensive to. Offensive to us, and we respond with that same energy or higher, with a lot of emotionality, we think we're showing strength. Yeah. A lot of times we're showing weakness because we're admitting that we got hurt. Yes. Right.

Yes. Well, yelling and swearing does not improve the strength of your argument. I learned that in high school, in my high school debate team. So I try to avoid that. And I want to be clear, too. You know, there is obviously a line. If someone crosses a line with me, I'm very capable of ending the discussion, firing a client if necessary, because at the end of the day, my personal health and mental health and well being, I value more than any one commission check. But I know where that line is. And, you know, I haven't, I haven't. I haven't gotten there yet with my clients.

Yeah, I think that's great because again, you know where that line is through experience. And sometimes you might not have had that experience dealing with somebody who crosses these lines. And so in the moment, it can take us aback. But for those of you who find Yourself in that situation where you're saying, this person just went way beyond what I thought was even possible. Now it's an opportunity for you to learn because now you might get a little bit more clarity on what your line is and what you're going to do if somebody crosses it.

And the other thing is, because of the way that I treat my clients regardless of the condition, and I've been in some very heated transactions where emotions were running rampant on either side and I know the broker doesn't have the privilege, in my view, of losing your ish, so to speak, because you're there to make sure that the transaction is a success, to bring both sides together. So if each side is losing their minds and then you start losing your mind in the middle, then the whole thing just falls off the track. So because I also have a reputation of being consistently respectful and calm and professional while displaying my acumen and adding value under all of these different high pressure circumstances, I can easily say to them, after I let that moment hang in the air, I can say to them, so here are the rules of engagement. We've been at this now for X number of time. This is not the first time we've worked together. During that time, I've never once treated you with anything other than the utmost respect and professionalism. And that's what I expect from you too. If that's something that you can't give me as we continue on this process together, if there's no trust and there's no respect, then it just, you know, it won't work. And 100% of the time, 100% of the time that I've used that language, was it, whether it was with other brokers or my clients, I got the desired result, which was a self correction and an apology and then we moved on.

You know, that's powerful because what, what do they say to that? What is their retort exactly? You know, it's, it's I, it, it's really an underutilized strategy as people become more unreasonable, becoming more reasonable. Because the way that I think about it, I pretend when I'm negotiating, I pretend like somebody's watching. Like, I pretend like somebody is watching. You know how any email can be taken out of context? In my mind I'm like, if somebody snips this conversation, will they look at me like I'm the bad guy? So that, that is my model.

Same young as they say, I love it.

I love it. And now listen folks out there in the audience, this is alive. I know you're there, you all told me where in the world you're from, what questions you have for j. For Jason, Usually in these podcasts, I'm just making these questions up. That's hard work. Make it easy for me. Give me. Give me some questions.

For you, too. If at the end of. If there's time at the end, I have some questions for you, I'd like to ask as well.

Absolutely, Absolutely. I think. I mean, we can make this transition, too, because what we can do is Simone will highlight the questions that come through, and then we could just take those as they come up. And then I know people are saying, man, this is this Kwame Jason Show. Where could I get. Get a taste of that? Join us in New York City next Wednesday, next August 30th. Wow. A week. A week. A week from today, hanging out in that penthouse.

Oh, my God, it's going to be so amazing.

Yeah. Well, while we give the listeners some time to. To formulate some questions or comments, share your thoughts, too, because we want to create this community here. Jason, I want to hand the mic over to you because I know you said you had some questions you wanted to ask me.

Yeah, I do. You know, I love learning as much as anything and something. A distinction that came up for me recently was the different mindset I have when I'm negotiating on behalf of my clients versus when I'm negotiating on behalf of myself in my personal life. And, Kwame, I know you minored in psychology, so you might be able to speak to this if it's more of a psychology thing, but I noticed that when it's in the work realm, I'm able to negotiate pretty aggressively and more often than not get the desired result. And then I find myself negotiating in the personal realm. And you say a negotiation is any conversation where somebody wants something. Right. So if I'm negotiating something with family or friends or even a colleague that's not specifically related to a transaction, there's this assumption that, oh, you know, we like each other and we're friends and. Or we're family, and, you know, I'm gonna take care of you, and I expect that you're gonna take care of me. And sometimes that always. That doesn't always happen. So do you have any thoughts or tips on how to advocate more for yourself or to negotiate better for yourself in the personal realm with, like, friends and family versus in the professional realm?

This is great. Now I get to be the therapist I always wanted to be. This is perfect. So, yes, there's a lot of psychology behind this. Because the thing is, you know, you're a great negotiator. You. You handle some of the toughest negotiations out there in the business world. But one of the most interesting things that I've seen and I've asked guests on the podcast this question. A lot of times, when we think about the negotiation skills that we talk about on the show, how does it apply in your personal life? And they're all, they're usually like, man, I'm terrible at home, can't get it done. I don't know what it is. I forget my skills. Listen, I, I remember seeing a, A, a comedian. Speaking of what you just said, it's the love. Saw a comedian who's like, listen, love, do not get on that stuff. You'll lose your house. When you think about a drug like love and emotions, those are drug. Alter your state of mind. You cannot perform at that same level. So we have, we have to shift the mindset. So a couple of things. When we're negotiating, let's just say it's a personal relationship, a partner, a loved one, a family, a friend, one on one. In that one of the things we have to do is we have to give ourselves some perspective. Come up with some mechanism to give yourself perspective. There's a, A saying in the legal community. The person, the lawyer who represents himself has a fool for an attorney.

Exactly.

You know, so they, you know, I, I have, I, I am a lawyer. I hire lawyers for my company.

Yeah.

Because I don't have the right perspective. And so you have to have a mechanism to give yourself perspective. So something that I started doing is that when I was in a conversation with Whitney or a family member or something more sensitive, what I do is I pretend like I'm coaching somebody else because I heard somebody say, hey, I had a. I had a tough conversation, and I pretended like you were my negotiation coach on my shoulder. And I kept on asking, what would Kwame say? And guided me through it. I'm like, why don't I do that? Because I'm negotiating. And in the business world, I'm Kwame Christian. When I negotiate at home, I don't know who I am. So when I started to think about myself as another person that I was coaching, it allowed me to step back and say, oh, hey, that zinger, Go ahead, put that in your pocket. Never use it. How about you sit back and use that concept you created called compassionate curiosity? Maybe use that a little bit, you know? And so that gave me some perspective. Then when it comes to the business World where you're negotiating and there might be a friend on the other side of the transaction. What I like to do was I like to talk about the fact that I'm representing my client. And so before I had to set a boundary or come in hard with in a negotiation, I would give a preamble talking about my goal to represent the client. And that was as much for me as it was for them. So it was like self coaching during the conversation and saying, hey, listen, I'm here to represent my clients, and this is what my client wants. So I would go back to that over and over again to signal to myself, hey, Kwame, you got a job to do. Remember how to negotiate effectively, but also signaling to the other side, hey, don't take it personally. I've got a job, you got a job. We can be friends after this negotiation, but we got something to do right now.

Right? Right, Right.

Yeah.

What would Kwame say? Wwks. I'm gonna. I'm gonna employ that in my. My offline negotiations moving forward.

Oh, man. But it. Listen, it's a great question because so many people deal with that, and it can be really disempowering to know when you have the skills to get the job done. But for some reason, it's like in this conversation with this specific person, I just can't. Don't know what it is.

I definitely notice a completely different psychology. It's like I'm somebody different. You know, the way that I speak when I'm negotiating, obviously, maybe this is common sense. The way that I speak when I'm negotiating with people at work is. It's like a completely different person when I'm having conversations in my private life where I have to look out for my own best interest. Sometimes it's like I never want to do that. You know, there's something like being self serving or thinking of the self as somehow ignoble, if that makes sense.

Absolutely.

Whereas that does not exist in the professional sphere.

Oh, this is great. Well, we have a question from Benoit. Hi. Impressive. Thank you. Jason. He's clearly talking about you. What kind of advice would you give for dealing with your own ego and that of other people involved in negotiation? Okay, cool. Jason, let me let you have the first shot at that, and then I'll go next.

So I'll talk about what works for me. And this is not at all prescriptive. This is just what works for me. And when it comes to dealing with my own ego, that's personal development and personal work that I'm doing constantly outside of the professional sphere in my personal life. So that means, you know, whether that means I'm in therapy, taking care of things that are coming up in my psyche with a professional. I've done, you know, my meditation practice. I famously did this meditation practice called Vipassana, which I find very helpful. And the introductory course there, and I'm not suggesting everyone does this, but for me it was very helpful. You know, it's a 10 day course. It's a valve silence, no speaking for 10 days. And you basically live like a renunciant and are practicing this very specific meditation technique that allows you to have that tool in your tool belt when you find yourself being emotionally or psychologically triggered in any context, private, you know, personal or professional. So I just make it my life's work really to accumulate more tools in my belt that I can use just in life, regardless of the, the context. So that's the books that I read on social psychology, understanding how, you know, humans behave and think. My meditation practice and things like, you know, Kwame's, Kwame's podcast.

That's great. I love it. And I think one of the keys that we have to address there is the fact that it's self improvement. It starts with yourself.

Yeah.

And so you, you have to look within and figure out what it is that's making the, the ego flare up for you in certain circumstances. Yes. And one of the things that I like to do is try to kind of reverse engineer the emotion. If I'm feeling something, if I'm feeling that ego flare up, what is it about this person or this situation that's making me feel this way? And so the, your emotions will leave clues. They'll leave you clues about yourself, about the way you see the world, about the way you see this circumstance or this person, whatever it happens to be. And so I want to take the instruction that comes from the emotion rather than just jumping on that emotional train wherever it happens to lead me. Because the, your ego, it operates in the same type of way as an emotion. It'll make you see the world differently. And then you will make decisions and take actions based on those beliefs that'll guide what you do and what you say more so than your logical strategic approach to the difficult conversation. So we have to first figure out what it is within ourselves that's causing us to be very egotistical in this situation. Sometimes it comes from a lack of, of a feeling of safety, a lack of feeling of control or insecurities, some level, and try to Fix that so you can come into the conversation a lot more secure.

And a lot of times that, you know, that goes way back to your formative years. So it takes curiosity, you know, to. To fascinate yourself with what you were saying. Where is this feeling coming from? And it takes commitment to do the work. Because frankly, the work of self improvement, it's not easy.

Right? I mean, think about that, Jason.

You.

You went to a. You went somewhere and you did not talk for 10 days. And somebody's like, how hard could it be to sit down, not say anything, and not talk for 10. Very hard. I mean, could you do it for 10 minutes? That's what meditation is. And most people don't do it. You know, it's hard to do. And I think we should address that second part, too. There was the. What about the egos on the other side? The way that I handle egos is that when I recognize this, I think about it almost as like a child who's crying who has some kind of emotional need. For some reason, they don't feel safe. This person needs a hug, you know, and so I'm not going to jump across the table and be like, hey, let me give you a hug. Yes, inappropriate, possibly illegal. But what I would do is, I would say, all right, there is an emotional flare up. I'm assuming that is coming from the ego. For some reason, I triggered something in them. So I'm gonna, again, compassionate curiosity, acknowledge and validate this. I'm going to figure out where that comes from. From. So I'll say something like, hey, Jason, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you feel really strongly about this. Am I sensing that right? Can you tell me a bit more about that? And then they're going to share a little bit more of that pain, and then I'll validate that. I'll say, listen, let's say it's ego, like the billionaires you were talking about. It's like, hey, listen, I understand. It makes sense. I did Google you. You are very impressive. I want to make it clear that I see you as. As a titan of your industry, for sure. And my goal is to help you get. Get this deal across the finish line. So I'm going to give them that little emotional payment. You want to feel big and bad. Here you go. I see you. You're really impressive. And now let's get back to business.

That's free and cost you nothing. I think you got a question there, Kwame?

Oh, yeah. Let's see it. Cool. So my Question relates to the last point Jason made about making maintaining composure when being roped in, so to speak. How does one recover from falling for that big. What a great question. Yeah. So what do you think, Jason?

In a word? Grace. In a word, grace. Grace and compassion. Like you said earlier, Kwame, but for yourself, because I certainly don't have a perfect record. There have been times in my life where I've fallen for the bait and allowed my emotions to get the better of me in a conversation, I must say, that was more likely to happen with other agents than ever with a client. And when it does happen, I kind of do what Kwame just talked about doing, which is, first of all, looking inward and understanding myself a little bit. How did I fall for that? What exactly triggered me? Where does that come from? Because chances are, if someone is doing or saying something that is specifically triggering to you and might not be to other people, that's coming from somewhere personal. So I try to investigate that a little bit, and then once I have some idea, I kind of, like, figure out, you know, if it's happening in real time. Okay. I kind of figure out what it is. That's something for me to work on later with either, you know, my therapist or my meditation instructor or a chapter in this book that I need to review and deepen my practice. And then I'm also not above apologizing. So I think having a bit of humility, you know, is also important. So having the grace and compassion for yourself to forgive yourself and to try to do better. And then I think having the courage to apologize if you've done or said something wrong in the moment, even if the other person and doesn't accept the apology, you know, to have the courage to offer an authentic and sincere apology nonetheless and try to move on.

Yeah, I agree. Just ownership and apology is really powerful, but in the business world, especially, people are afraid to do it. In the legal world, people are afraid a lot, too, because they're afraid of admitting liability.

Oh, yeah.

And so what. I. I mean, here's. Here's a really simple example with. With Whitney, my wife, and one of the things that we like to travel together. And one time there was a delay, and we're sitting right in front of the gate, but we were really wrapped up in this Netflix show we were watching on our phone. And so there was a delay, and then the. The plane started boarding, and Wendy's like, hey, is that our flight? I was like, no, no, it's not our flight. Come on, let's keep watching. It was our flight. And so we missed our flight. Messed up the whole trip. And then Whitney started to get a little snarky with me. She's like, hey, Kwame, you remember that time when we were sitting there at the gate and then I said, hey, that's our plane boarding. And you said, no, let's sit there. You remember that, Kwame? I was like, yeah. And I was wrong. You were 100. Right. My bad. And she's like, you weren't supposed to. I wanted to fight more.

Yeah.

It's like a pattern breaking maneuver.

Yeah.

Ownership and accountability are becoming very rare nowadays. And so if you can recognize, hey, I did something wrong, this is where I messed up, and this is what I'm going to do next time to make sure that we don't find ourselves in this situation again. They say, well, I mean, you did it. You did that for me. I guess we're good.

It's liberating. And also modeling that behavior for the other party benefits you in the long term, because when the shoes are on the other foot, they now have that modeled behavior to be able to do the same.

Bingo. Yeah. Awesome questions. Cool. We got Miriam. How do you bring a balance to your personal values and your client desires on the negotiation table? Oh, this is good.

This is no values.

I've got. I've got some thoughts. If there's a conflict between my personal values and what they want to bring to the table, it's just not a deal. Like, I'm not willing to compromise that. There. There were some times in law where people asked. Wanted me to do something that I didn't feel comfortable with. I'm just like, listen, for. For me, again with the, with the trust live that I did a little bit back back in the day. Back in the day. It was last month, but I did this one. And I said, I try to negotiate as if my family's watching. If my grandparents were here, my parents were here and they were watching, would they be proud? They wouldn't be proud if I accepted this deal. So the answer is a clear no. And then. But more from a practical sense, man, I don't want to lose my license. I worked hard to get this. You know, I'm not going to do anything like that. And if you have a bunch, you get a bunch of money from a deal, feel bad about the way that you earned it, then you didn't win. You know, I think it's really important to be very clear on that and make sure that you're not just getting good deals that are financially beneficial. You're actually doing deals with people that you respect, that you enjoy working with, that can fulfill you emotionally. And you don't feel like you sacrificed who you are and your values and your integrity to get it done.

Yeah, it's a good thing that whoever asked that question, I think that's a sign that you have a good. A good conscience, and that's a good thing. And you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror, because not everyone is like that, frankly. Kwame. Yeah, but if you are, the answer is, don't cross that line because you won't be able to sleep at night and you might lose your license.

Exactly. Georgie. Signaling. What was a language signal that you picked up on from the other party that helped you close the deal? Oh, this is good. Jason, you want to take this one first?

No, you go first.

Cool. So I think when we're thinking about body language, you see the quick glance to the clock. I'm going to keep this as a short little thing. One thing you have to pay attention to. One of the most important things is paying attention to number one, the baseline. What is their baseline body language? Then pay attention to deviations from the baseline. So if somebody's baseline is like this, you can't really read much into their arms being crossed, because their arms are always crossed. But that if it's open and then they cross their arms, that might be something. If. Which leads us to point number two. You're paying attention to clusters of gestures, not gestures in isolation. So if I'm just sitting here and then I cross my arm, that's one gesture. You can't read anything from that. It's not enough data. But if I cross my arm, squint my eyes, and kind of cocked my head to the side and lean back, that's like four within a three second span, something happened there. And so one of the best examples was mediation that I did. One of the most fascinating things that I learned from mediation is nobody feels like they're the bad guy. And if they do a bad thing, it's in retaliation because they think somebody else did something bad and they're evening the score. And so in this mediation, this person just found out that they were actually the bad guy because they retaliated. But the other person didn't do anything wrong. So they were the actual initial aggressor. And so in that mediation, what ended up happening was I showed him this trail of emails that showed the miscommunication. And so he looked at the emails, and then he Just went like this, and he stayed there. And I remember the only reason I know the number is because it was so awkward. And I said to myself, man, Kwame, if you pull this off, this will be a great story someday. He stood there, he stayed in that position for 43 seconds, not moving, not saying anything. And so I recognize that there's something happening in. In his mind. He was thinking of himself in one way. His mind is slowly shifting to see the situation completely differently. And I recognize if I jumped in and I said something there, I would interrupt that really important process. And so I just sat there and let it marinate. Yeah, that's what got him to. To make. Yeah.

Nice. Nice one. Nice one. Well, a lot of my. My deals are and transactions are done over the phone, so I don't always have the benefit of body language, but there are some key tells that you can pick up on vocally as well. And I find that when someone is delivering a message or information to me, the pitch and timbre of their voice goes a long way. So if someone. For example, this just happened to me last night. An agent called me up to tell me they were going to put an offer in on a lifting that I have. And then I got the number, and it was just, like, ridiculously low, disrespectful, low ball number. And I said something to the effect of, you know, we're going to submit this offer to my client right away, as is required. For my part. If I had intended to lowball you, I would have had the courtesy of calling you to let you know beforehand. I don't expect that they'll be responding to this offer. You know, I'll let you know. And, you know, on the one hand, maybe that wasn't a lowball offer. It was a lowball offer, but maybe for them, that was the final number there. It's a take that or leave it. We don't know. Only when he called me back on the phone, a bit, you know, perturbed by the tone of my email, that I recognized in his voice. You know, normally sort of a calm guy with a voice in a lower register. Now, his voice was. Instead of loose, it was tight and higher and like, you know, nervous and. Which gave me every indication that they did want to do the deal, and they understood that their position was, you know, not great. And it made. It made me feel, rightly or wrongly, that we had the high ground in the. In the transaction. Now, it's not over yet. We'll see. But in my experience, that's Usually how that goes. So voice clues and also, you know, filler words. You know, the ums and the oz and the likes that give away that they're not that committed to their position.

This story is great for a number of reasons. First of all, it's pedagogically sound. I like that. That's always. The second thing is, in my mind, as you were telling that story, I was just imagining that guy listening in on this live, and he's. He's sitting there screaming to himself. He's screaming to myself, my voice isn't high. What are you talking about? And Jason's just starts blowing up. We're like, everybody, the live is. Oh, man. No, man, this is great. And again, I. I can hear what the listeners are saying. Man, this is great. Where can we get this live in person in New York City next Wednesday? See, Coach Barbara says it. You guys are awesome. Come hang in New York.

Can I actually do a little bit of a deeper dive on the event that we're doing next Wednesday?

Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.

For people that don't know. So I run a national referral network called Agents of Color, and I started it because I felt like black and brown agents in not only New York City, but nationally. We had some very specific challenges and that we should sort of organize and come together and help each other out and grow our businesses in that way. So officially, it's Agents of Color that's hosting Kwame at this event at the Baccarat Penthouse next week. But I want to also dispel a myth that Agents of Color is only for people of color. It's actually for everybody. We have allies of all backgrounds that come to our events, and it's actually really important to our mission that our allies and people who are not of color come and join in on the conversation. Because, you know, amongst ourselves, we all know what the deal is. We're all very familiar with the conversations and the discourse, and it becomes a little bit of an echo chamber, in my view, if every time it's just us in the room. I think in order to make progress in some of these discussions and in our businesses, we have to sort of broaden the net. So it's very much for us and by us, but everyone is welcome to the party. And if you look at any of the videos and pictures from any of our other events, you'll see that it's like a Benetton ad. Everyone is there. The more the merrier. So what we're doing specifically With Kwame, next week is going to be a morning of networking with people in the real estate industry from all over the country. I'm so sorry, in the real estate industry from all over the country, brokers, etc. And then we're diving into this, you know, wonderful masterclass that Kwame is providing. But here's the kicker. In my view, I'm going to make it about the money because this is huge. This training is basically an all day training. And folks, it's normally a very, very, very expensive training, in my view. Worth every penny, but expensive. Kwame has been very, very generous and is providing us this day of training for $200. All you have to do is use the code AOC 2023 to get that discount. So you'll be in the lap of luxury and a $28 million penthouse. Get fed wonderful food, you'll leave a better negotiator and you'll have an opportunity to make some new contacts for your business as well. It's a win, win, win, win, win. So I really think it'll be special and I hope your listeners come out and join us.

I appreciate that, man. Yeah, me too. And like last time we had, we did an all day session together was a lot of fun. And we all see when it comes to the, the way that I present, yeah, I, I always give this disclaimer at the beginning. I present better the more I'm interrupted. I mean these lives are a good example. You know, it's, you know, we get in here, we mix it up, you all ask questions, we, we riff off of that. And so of course there's going to be a structure, they're going to be exercises. You can actually practice the skills in a safe environment. But you get to really create the content by the engagement and the questions that you ask.

Yeah.

And so it's, it's going to be great because again, it's going to be a really diverse audience. People from all. Sue flying in from, flying in from Switzerland. Yeah.

We got people flying in from Florida, from California.

It's amazing.

Shout out to Sue Mathis.

I love that.

Agents of color Ally and plumbing supporter.

Exactly. I was going to say, sue, you should have just stayed there. We'd have met you there, did this backwards. But yeah, it's going to be fun and hopefully we're able to, to replicate this in other circumstances. But you know, who knows when that will be.

So.

But yeah, it might be more money.

Next time, so get in while it's hot.

Oh, it will certainly be more Money. Yeah, it'll be. It'll be significantly more expensive. We only had, like, a month to market, so I'm like, well, we're going to have to flex on this price. But, yeah, it's going to be. Y' all are going to be taxed next time. The arty, our CFO has made made sure of that. Yeah. You know, so her. One of her major roles is. Is tempering my generosity because I can for free, you know, but, yeah, this will be fun and I hope you all can make it. It's going to be a good time in a really cool environment with really cool people.

Where can they go to find out to. To register. Is there a link?

Yes, Simone. Simone dropped a link in the chat and Simone, go ahead and drop it again because I know there have been a lot of comments, but, yeah, he.

Should make sure he includes that code because people might get a little sticker shock if they see the.

Yeah, Yep. So cool. Well, I appreciate this, folks. Thank you for all of the. The great comments, all the great questions, uplifting the conversation. Really appreciate it. Jason, thank you for coming in and. And being the all Star on this live. This was a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Any parting words before you roll out?

One love. I love in Jamaica. One Love. Walk Good.

I love it. All right, peeps, we'll catch you later. I'll see you. Bye. Bye. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and. And keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.