Strategies to Deal With Difficult People at Work with Kris Plachy

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Negotiate Anything is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 3 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made it the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm Kwame Christian and I'm the Director of the American Negotiation Institute. We're growing and I want to introduce you to our new team members and new trainers. This will give you new and diverse perspectives on negotiation and conflict resolution. And that's why Shane Martin, our head of Sales and Partnerships, is going to serve as co host of the show from time to time. We're excited to continue to provide you with the best content that will help to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, our team conducts negotiation and conflict resolution trainings in the United States and abroad. Our trainings will give you the practical skills you need to resolve conflict, negotiate, lead and persuade with confidence. Click the link in the description below to learn more about how we can make your difficult conversations easier.

I am a leadership coach and I have been working in my own practice now for about six years, but before that I led and managed teams for about 20 years. And my primary expertise is really in coaching and developing leaders to be much more successful and productive so that they can deal with the ever increasing challenges of managing their humans. I know today we're going to be talking about difficult people and difficult employees, and that niche really developed itself on its own. I stumbled into it by writing an article on LinkedIn, which evolved into a book, which evolved into a workshop, which really has evolved into a platform that I work with organizations on, both from managing difficult employees, but also really helping leaders who can also be difficult. And I've done a lot of work coaching the difficult executive. And what I've really found through my experience, which I'm sure will come up in our conversation, is that most people don't wake up and decide to be difficult. But we all have belief systems and experiences in the world that really influence our behavior and that can become a real problem in some cases at work. I've become super passionate about helping leaders who are dealing with challenging employees, employees who are dealing with challenging leaders, and really just individuals themselves who are facing what they believe to be difficult and how that's creating roadblocks in their own success and their own performance in their leadership role specifically.

That's fascinating. And of course I find this really interesting because what I've recognized is that I think sometimes the best things in life or the things that we really want in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. But people just don't know how to engage in a meaningful way, so they shy away. So your work is particularly important today.

Thank you. Yeah, it's important to me, too. I'm also raising children, so I have three teenagers. I'm having lots of difficult conversations. I feel like almost daily. So I have to get my own book out every now and then.

That's funny. See, my son is only two and a half, so it's not too bad yet. But I'm seeing him start. He's starting to get a little bit feisty already.

It's coming. Yeah.

And quick note. The listener's name was Peter. I forgot Peter was his name. So. Thank you, Peter. So this episode is dedicated to you. Perfect.

That's awesome.

So how about we start off by kind of breaking down what makes these conversations and these people so difficult to deal with? What are the barriers that we're dealing with here?

Sure. So the first thing we do when we talk about a difficult person is the first thing I like to point out to people. And this is the first point of resistance, if we will. Right, Kwame? The first point where they're like, wait a minute. What is she talking about? People say they're difficult. People will say, I work for someone who's really rude. I work with someone who's really disrespectful. I work with someone who's really negative. I work with someone who's always the victim. I work with someone who's a know it. All right? These are the kinds of things that people present as difficult behaviors. And the first thing we have to recognize is that what's really happening is I'm witnessing a behavior in you. So maybe you cross your arms in a meeting and you roll your eyes, or maybe you interrupt me, or maybe you talk about your previous success, or maybe you tell me my work isn't good enough. You say those words to me. I witness specific behavior in you, and then I label it from my own perspective. So I label you crossing your arms in a meeting as disrespectful. I label you saying my work isn't good enough as insulting. I label you talking about your past successes as arrogant. So it's a really interesting thing, if you can pull that apart just for a minute, is to recognize other people do things in the world. And then I label your behavior based on my experience. And then I believe that about you. So I believe that you're arrogant. I can promise you that person did not wake up today and think, oh, I can't wait to be arrogant today. Right? They're just doing things in the world. And then I labeled it, and then what happens is I use that label to define you. And that label, in and of itself changes how I interact with you. It's fascinating. Right? But I believe that it's you that is making me be the way that I am. Right. So the first thing we have to recognize is as soon as I label someone as difficult, negative, whatever it is, it changes me, not you.

That's really, really interesting. So I think this is a bit of a paradigm shift for a lot of people because we look at the person and we assign the problem as the person. We conflate the two. And what you're saying is that a lot of times our interpretations of the behavior that we're seeing is worse than the behavior itself.

Yes. Well, the behavior is just a circumstance. It's not loaded with anything until I load it with my opinion. So someone interrupting is just someone interrupting me, saying, it's rude. Now I'm charged right now. It's a charged situation. And then once it becomes charged for me, it's hard for me to talk to you, because now I'm upset. And because now I've been on the other side of this. I've coached the interrupter. I've coached the difficult, negative guy. Right. I had a client who everybody just thought was so negative, so frustrated with him, they didn't even want him in meetings. Right. Because he was always coming up with the contrarian point of view. Right. He was always the guy in the meeting who would say, yeah, but. And so when I talk to him, he's like, I have to do that. Someone has to make sure that the rails are up, that we don't go off in sync. It's my job to make sure that people consider all aspects before we move forward. He's not thinking he's being negative. He's thinking he's being helpful. Right. But because I just make this assumption about him, it's so fascinating. And then, of course, we get into, like, these group belief systems about people, which we can talk more about within organizations, which get really, really dangerous. So when you're in a leadership role, you have to be really, really thoughtful before you start labeling your employees, because it makes you less effective as a manager, leader, and coach for that person.

That makes a lot of sense. And I think, to your point about the stories we tell ourselves, it's important for people to recognize that coming up with what we think is the truth is incredibly difficult in day to day conversations because we're not like csi. We don't have forensic scientists to actually go back and see what the truth is. And since memory is so fallible, what we have is, is a warped version that's biased in our favor. And what the other person has is a warped version that's biased in their favor. And every time we tell ourselves a story, we kind of have to keep in mind that we play a visiting role as the antagonist in somebody else's story as well.

For sure. And that's why, like when I coach a client who is really struggling with a person who's difficult as an example, I really, really push them because they just really want to tell me their story about them. Well, they did this and then this is. And they're so this and this is this and this and then they didn't even think about that. Right. They have a real strong story about it. And I just always come back to tell me exactly what they did. Like, what would all of us in the room have seen? Not what you think about it, just what did you see? What did they say? What were the words that came out of their mouths? Let's just start there. Because it doesn't mean. You see, I think a lot what happens initially, to your point, this is sort of paradigm shifting. I think what happens to a lot of people initially when they hear what I say is they think I'm making justification for people's behavior. Like, oh, are you saying it's okay if people do these things? And I'm not suggesting that. All I'm saying is that in order to be able to have a productive conversation, I've got to be neutral. And if there is someone who interrupts people regularly in a meeting, if there is someone who raises their voice at work, if there is someone who always talks about every day their personal life to the point where they're a distraction to the team, I do have to address that, but I don't need to address that from my point of view. I need to address that as evidence, as actual behavior and the impact of the behavior on the individual, the team or the organization. If I can do that, I'm not bringing my charge, my emotion, my opinion to the conversation. I'm just bringing the evidence.

And one of the things that's brilliant about this approach is that if you focus on the indisputable facts, like your body language was xyz, that's observable and undeniable. You came to the Office. And you talked a lot about personal situations, something like that. And you approach it in a way where you're able to divorce the behavior, the problem behavior, from your interpretation of the behavior. What ends up happening is that the there is less that the person can push back on, because if you misinterpret what they're saying now, you have opened yourself up to vulnerabilities and criticism, and that's where a lot of the arguments come from. But if you focus on the behavior, I see this all the time when I mediate cases. People love to tell the story.

That is absolutely it. And so then if you take that one step further, right? So because most managers give feedback based on opinion, so they'll say, hey, you know what? You're really distracting everybody, talking about your personal life all the time. You can't do that at work. And they go in that way with all this judgment. And so then, of course, what's the person going to say? I'm not a distraction. They're trying to be helpful. I'm right. Like we get now. Now we're arguing. And I don't need to argue. I just need to say, look, this is what I observed. You came to work today and I heard you talk about whatever's going on for over 45 minutes. The impact is John didn't get his assignment done on time. Lucy was walking around, not in her desk, whatever the impact was. And then we don't have to argue because I'm not in opinion, it actually happened. But because so many managers lead with opinion, they don't want to have the difficult conversation. To your point. Exactly. Because they know they can't defend it. And I can't defend that you're rude. And it's like if I just tell you you're really rude now I have to defend it. And that's just my opinion about you. But if you said to me your work really is crappy, and I think, oh, I wouldn't have said it that way. But if I tell you that's rude, I'm qualifying your comment instead. I'm going to say, when you tell someone their work isn't good, here's the impact of that. Here's the impact. You don't have to label it. So you're dead on there. That's what really creates the discomfort.

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Yep. As long as you're willing as the manager to be that specific. Which brings us into that other realm. Right. Where a lot of times managers give feedback to employees based on what other people say about them. And you can't do that because you didn't see it. So we have to be really careful that we're not managing people based on other people's opinions. I'm a firm believer that leading and managing, you have to be present and you have to be engaged and know your team you're called to do that. I think it's a responsibility if you're going to assume a leadership role, that creates some of that issue as well.

So that makes a lot of sense. And now let's say if you're working with the person who is labeled as the difficult person and that person happens to be a manager. And maybe we could just use the example of the gentleman you were working with who sees himself as devil's advocate but others see as the devil, how do you approach that with him?

Great question. So most of the time, when these clients are kind of brought to me by the client company, the first Few conversations are really sketchy because there's a lot of defensiveness, Right? Because that's most people's first inclination is just to defend themselves. I get it. And so it's not me, it's them. I wouldn't be this way if it weren't for them. Right. The only reason I do this is because of them. And so really, the first few conversations are just really to understand, like, what's their perspective? Why do you have to be the contrarian? Where does that even come from? Why do you think that's valuable? Not that it's bad, just what is your sort of infrastructure in your brain that's designed that for you as your work in the world? Right. Oftentimes what I do with my difficult clients, because what I know is that everything that happens in the world is just circumstantial. Things that happen outside of our control, just things that we can prove all day. And we define those things in our mind with our thoughts. So you and I can have the very same circumstance happen to us and we would define it differently. We see that every day in the news is a great example. Right. So things happen in the world, we define them in our mind with the way that we think and how we think about things triggers how we feel, and how we feel triggers how we behave. And so if I'm working with someone who's demonstrating these behaviors, they're negative, they're rude, they're dismissive, they cut people off, they micromanage whatever else they do. What I know is that's coming from some sort of feeling that is not productive. And so what I typically do with these clients for only way this is going to work is if they see themselves. So the first thing I ask them, which is very kind of interesting to do, especially with really high level executives, is just to ask them how they feel. Every day I could hear people listening to this, like, what? But seriously, like, just think about, like, how do you feel? And most people who are difficult will tell you that they feel impatient, frustrated, stressed, irritated, annoyed. Those are the kinds of things you hear. So what kind of behavior comes from that short, curt, direct impatience, right? Like tapping your feet, rolling your eyes, holding up your hand. Do not let someone come in your office overanalyzing. Like there's other things that people do, they just fix it. They just take care of stuff. They don't let their employees do anything because they can't handle watching them think. Right? So what I do first is just sort of ask those questions, like, how do you feel when you're at work. And it's so powerful because first of all, so many people don't talk about that. And second of all, it's the cue to the compass of what drives the difficult behavior. So that's the first step. And then we have to help them see their behavior through other people's perspectives. So I understand that you think that you need to be a contrarian to make sure the ship doesn't sink, but let's just talk about this for a minute from someone else's perspective. How might they interpret or receive that? I don't know if this will be one of your questions, so I'll answer it. But in my experience, about 80% of the people I work with are willing to see that. 20%. This is very anecdotal, but this is my experience. They don't care what other people see, what other people think. They think they're right. They think they're doing it the right way. They just don't care. And those people are uncoachable. And that's okay.

There are so many gems in here that I want to pull out for the audience. This is incredible. So this is kind of solidifying the fact that this will not be your only appearance on the show. Just throwing that out.

We only have 20 minutes.

What are we going to do?

I think we're in time.

This is crazy. What's interesting is that we can look at what you said from the brilliance of coaching because the model that you use to coach is spot on. This is the way that it should be done. So for people who are coaching out there, you can learn from this. For people who have been labeled as difficult, you again can learn from this because you can start to see how Chris works with people who have been labeled as difficult in the past. And now you can work to shift your mindset. Now, if you do not fall into either of those two categories, you still can benefit because essentially this is a method of persuasion. Because you didn't go in letting them know exactly what they need to do and telling them the open quote, Right answer, close quote. You went in there seeking to understand that the way you did that was by asking open ended questions. And that's what you said the first couple of conversations would be about trying to seek more and a deeper level of understanding before even trying to change the behavior. And so it's a very patient method of persuasion. And then you walk them through a perspective shift. Again, this wasn't a perspective and a worldview that you have taken from your mind. And put into theirs. You again, ask them questions and you say, how do you think this affects the people around them? And then they slowly start to work their way to see things your way or closer to your way. But you didn't force them to it. And I think that's critical for people to understand if they want to persuade effectively. You can't force people to do it if you truly want to persuade and lead lasting change. When it comes to behavioral change, there needs to be some autonomy and control over the process. And if you ask them questions, they feel like they're in control, and they feel as though they come to the conclusion themselves.

So true. All of it. Because if we know that behavior comes from the way that we feel, which comes from the way that we think, the only way that I'm ever going to change my behavior is if I change the way that I think. And I cannot make you think differently. I can only I use the word invitation, like in the book that I have, the five truths for thinking about difficult people. That's what I call them, our invitations. Like, I'm just going to invite you to think about it this way. You don't have to keep it. You know, it's kind of like, let's just try on this outfit and decide, look in the mirror and think, would we buy this? I don't know. We don't have to. But let's just try it on. Let's give it a shot. And because difficult people, and leaders especially, have been now given enough, unfortunately, poor feedback, because most people are terrible at it. They are so prepared to just lash out and not be willing. They feel very vulnerable. And so it's just that. You're absolutely right. It's a gentle process, at least initially for me. And then it isn't, because I can promise you there's someone I've been coaching for a while who I had a conversation with a couple weeks ago. It was. Now it's like, no, you know everything you need to know now. This is a choice. Why are you making this decision? What's going on here? You know, not to do this. It's like you just slipped back into what we call the negative spin cycle. You're back in there. Why are you in there? What's happening? You know better, Right?

Right.

I love that sometimes it can be tough. Because the thing about difficult leaders is they're used to getting their way because it works. I mean, people keep the behavior that's effective. We all do.

That's true.

So if it works for me to be a little rough and tumble because I get my way. Why would I change? And I had a client say that to me last year. He was super successful sales guy, really tough, tough, tough, tough. Not very nice. People were crazy about working with him. And he said to me, after about six months working together, he said, I'm really afraid that I'm going to lose my edge if I drop some of this stuff. And I said, here's what we're going to do. We're not going to lose the edge. We're going to keep everything that makes you amazing. We're just going to put a little velvet around those edges so you can get a little more success out of it.

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