Strategy, Tactics and Templates to Prepare for High-Impact Negotiations with Kasia Jagodzinska

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Kasia, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thanks so much for having me. Again, it's been a while.

It has been a while. So I knew we had to get you back and you know, some big news on your end is a good reason to make it happen. So how about you reintroduce yourself to the audience?

My name is Kasia Gudzinska. I have a dual background in business management and in academia. I'm a professional negotiator, the author of three books on negotiations, high Impact Negotiations. I'm based in Switzerland where I work as a professor at several universities actually now cooperating with quite a few all across Europe. And also I'm a business trainer, business consultant specializing in difficult intercultural, multi party negotiations.

It's almost like your bio gets longer every time that we talk.

And I forgot to mention the UN advisory, but that falls into the category of the multi party negotiations. But Kwame, you yourself are keeping busy, so I think we're a good match for this type of conversation.

Exactly. I agree. I agree. And I'm so excited to talk about your new book. It's so impressive and so needed. So let me just sit back and give you an opportunity to give us an overview and then we'll dig into it.

Thank you very much. The new book is the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. The reason that I wrote this book is twofold. Actually. I discovered a need for it while working with my business clients, with MBA students that I work with, with the business professionals that I coach and consult. I noticed that there's something that is miss in the existing negotiation approaches, which is the element of self empowerment, self management, and the underlying foundation of this book, and the assumption that I make is that the most important negotiator that you have to convince and win over is first and foremost yourself. So negotiation starts with the management of your emotions, your stress, very often our egos as well. And only then can it be approached from perspective of an interaction between two parties. Building on that, I also provide professionals a framework for designing the whole process from the beginning to the end to the execution, actually, because a lot of people, I call them deal makers, believe that a negotiation ends with an agreement, a deal being signed, and so on. In my opinion, it ends, especially in today's environment. It ends with real making, which means that we have a strengthened relationship, but also the terms that we've negotiated are executable, which I think is very important. This marriage that I call between the transaction and the relational aspects of negotiation. So in a nutshell, those were the underlying reasons for this experience. This adventure of writing the next book, which took a lot of energy, brought me great pleasure. There will not be a fourth for some time at least.

That's great. That is great. I heard a great quote. They say that painters like to paint and authors like to have written a lot of times.

I agree. I sign my name under that quote, definitely, for the moment being at least. I think the next one will be a novel, you know, a negotiation novel.

That's pretty cool. I'll send you the link to my buddy Brian Ahern's book because he wrote one that was really, really, really good. Just talking about how influence can permeate your life.

Wow, that sounds interesting.

But today we're talking about the Financial Times guide to High Impact Negotiations. That's why we're here. I love the fact that you actually took the time to blend that internal negotiation also with the external negotiation, because a lot of times people feel almost as though they have to go one way or the other with their subject matter. And so it's so important that you blend it in a way that can be respected and under by people who are having real negotiations that matter, when there are a lot of things on.

The line, definitely for me. And, you know, it's interesting that you should mention that because a lot of the time when I watch my clients or when I partake in negotiations, I notice that we are becoming too much, in my opinion, focused on strategies, on tactics. I heard even the term sometime this week, tactical empathy, which for me basically means, you know, depicts humans that are no Longer behaving or feeling like humans. And I mean strategies, don't get me wrong, strategies, tactics, design of the process, as I mentioned, it constitutes the framework of the book. And I think that is very, very important that you prepare strategically, you know, which tactics to apply. But fundamentally, a negotiation is a human to human interaction. The first human is obviously yourself and some internal processes which will govern the way that you behave, that you interact, that you perceive the reality that is around you. And only then is the external manifestation of your inner beliefs. And I think if we don't understand certain fundamental aspects of our own behavior, of the factors that drive the things that we do, it's very difficult to connect on that human level as well. And I very often notice, especially in the dealing phase when, when people exchange demands, they become very cautious in relation to the tactics. And the more cautious you are, the less those tactics are going to have an impact. And I believe that we need to go back a step back in time. We need to go back to the primal drivers of behavior to understand where is this all coming from. We seem to get lost in multitasking, in a lot of noise around us. And as I mentioned, in this tactical toolkit, which is great, as I said, but it's not the only element I think that confidence is, and understanding yourself and then understanding the other party and showing them that not tactical empathy, but real empathy, genuinity is important and crucial, especially in today's business environment.

Absolutely. And I think it's tough for people, especially when they're new to this more human centered approach to negotiation, to balance those tensions because they say, all right, I want to feel comfortable and confident in my approach. I also want to take the time to make sure that I'm advocating for myself effectively protecting my interests. And I also want to try to connect with the other person and empathize genuinely with them. But sometimes I think there is a fear that people have that focusing on one necessarily takes away from the other. So how can you help them to reconcile those tensions?

I think that what you said, it has great value. KWAME IN and I was thinking that first, those who are in power do not need to show and, you know, throw the power in the face of other people. That's not power. That's very often self doubt, that's very often insecurity speaking. And I think that you have to get your internal house in order first before you externally negotiate. And that works on both levels. So process design, and here I'm talking about the corporate setting designing of the process, having A universal approach to negotiations and so on. But primarily also understanding who do you admit as a negotiator, why do you negotiate? And that will bring me to my next point, how I structured the book and what I failed to see in many approaches. I start from the mission statement. Who talks about missions in negotiations these days? All companies have missions. If you go on any website, you'll see our mission is, our values are, and so on. So my recommendation is to think about, first of all, why do you engage in negotiations? Why? What's your mission? What do you want to convey, and by which values do you want to be known as a negotiator? I think this is something very important, especially now in today's, as I mentioned, very volatile business environment. Economic first. It started with the pandemic, you know, the insecurity of what the next day will bring. And I think we've been living here, especially now in Europe as well, but all over the world, we're living in times of insecurity. And in such times, we are primarily driven by fear. Fear is the buzzword that I hear in most of my meetings with my clients, you know, in training sessions. Fear, the emotional reaction. You cannot be emotional and rational at the same time. So if you don't understand where that fear is coming from or that, as you mentioned, confidence or insecurity, you'll not be convincing or you'll not be comfortable in a negotiation. External.

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And hence I start the book with three main challenges. So the book is very practical. The reason that I wrote it is primarily to provide a guide, a strategic framework for busy professionals who need a quick reference guide. Very easy, very straightforward, yet not simplistic. How to structure, how to design the negotiation process. And it starts with the mindset in order to empower them, to liberate a little bit and to free up their negotiation prowess. I start with the main challenges. Three categories of challenges that I have observed working at the un, working with executives, working with MBA students, emotions, management, confidence, related challenges, and the last category, only the last category are strategic challenges. So the book shares to some extent, in confidentiality, without disclosing, of course, any information, but it shares the categories and it shares certain statements, certain experiences of business professionals to show others, I am not alone, that others also share these types of challenges. And that in itself very often is liberating because we always feel like, you know, people are watching us, evaluating us, assessing us, and so on, but we really do share, a majority of us, the same challenges in a negotiation. So my aim was to provide a guide, but also provide an empowerment tool.

Yeah, this is great. I like the process of normalization because I think it's hard for a lot of business people to admit the emotional challenges they're having in these conversations. It's hard for them to be vulnerable with others, and it's even harder sometimes for them to be vulnerable with themselves. Because if you're not vulnerable with yourself and you don't accept the fact that you're feeling these things, then you can't take the steps to overcome those emotions that are holding you back in the moment during the negotiation.

Fantastically, said Rami, when listening to you, something came to my mind that it takes power or it takes strength to be vulnerable, to be weak. So you have to be powerful internally in order to show some vulnerability. And I think that that brings us to the topic of being genuine, to being real, to being a human. I'm always very much amused when I get at the EU level or the UN level, when I get mandates on negotiating with governments, with the pharma industry, with big consulting firms, because it's fundamentally wrong. The request is wrong. Because how do you negotiate with the government, for example? You negotiate with people, in the end, people that make up the government, but they drive the decision process. Their preoccupations, their motivations, their fears, their egos, their emotions fundamentally are at the root of the externalized dynamic. And I find that fascinating. And hence I started studying, I started my advanced studies in analytical psychology, which I find absolutely fascinating and a great fit for the negotiation landscape as well. To understand, then, the psyche, the role of the self, the role of the ego, some internal processes, the shadow, for example. So something that is suppressed in the psyche, the elements that be subconsciously or consciously pushed to the subconscious in our minds that surface one way or another. So you know what I'm talking about because you have the degree in psychology as well. So I think you get where going with this.

Absolutely. And again, listeners, I really want to hammer this point home because when you take the time to look inside of yourself and negotiate with yourself and exercise some of those demons, having that ability to be vulnerable enough with yourself to admit, hey, I'm feeling something that provides you with a path to solve that problem and address that and improve your negotiation skills. Thus far in this episode of Negotiate Anything, we haven't given you not one tactic, and that's intentional because a lot of times we rely so heavily on these tactics and strategies, but a lot of times we're doing that because we don't want to do that internal work. And we hope that the strategies and tactics will help us to overcome those emotional challenges that we're experiencing in the middle of the negotiation.

Exactly, exactly. I mean, the book has some recommendations. It has some recommendations from, for example, exorcists from Madagascar. I'm not going to say more. So that's a little bit of bait. To find out more, some lessons from the singer share turning back time and how you could use that turn back time technique to enhance your future negotiation performance. But let's not be too stingy, Kwame, and let's share a little bit of insights with our listeners. Maybe we can talk about something that I call the VCR technique. The vcr, when we used to watch movies, remember when we were kids, it's more or less our generation on those VCR devices and the tapes that you could rewind and fast forward and stop and so on. So the VCR technique is the visualization confidence and reenactment technique is built on the external manifestation of certain internal processes. Because we've spoken quite a lot about vulnerability, that it takes strength to be weak. Let's make it clear that we are not inviting the listeners to be weak negotiators. We are inviting them to be powerful people by understanding what drives them and what their vulnerabilities are. So this visualization means going back, remembering a moment of huge confidence. So, for example, Kwame, it could be for you when you met Whitney or you had your first baby and you had that great moment of confidence. I see you're smiling, so I see that brings back.

It wasn't confidence.

But it gave you confidence. I'm sure. I'm sure it boosted the confidence. I always say to myself in moments of distress in negotiations, when I negotiate on behalf of my clients or I train people, and I realize this is A tough negotiation and a high stakes negotiation for them. And the pressure is high also for me. I always say to myself, if I could have experienced a moment of confidence before in my life that gave me strength, a boost of energy, a boost of confidence for the future, I can reenact it. A lot of people don't realize that the brain does not distinguish between reality and imagination. Which means that the things that you imagine can have a physiological and even a physical impact on yourself just as much as reality can have. Which is fascinating, which is. Lies at the, at the base baseline of this VCR technique that if it can be, we have the saying, I think that if it can be imagined, it can be done. I would go further. If it can be reimagined, re. Relived internally, it can be reenacted in the future as well.

Oh, this is brilliant. And again, this is a testament to your work in the field in general, but also how powerful this book is because you're going to give tactics for the external negotiation and strategies for that, but you're also giving very, very clear tactical guidance for the internal negotiation as well. Can't just say, hey, be more confident. That'll make you a better negotiator. We could say, no, you can actually use this technique in order to become a better negotiator by being more confident. Oh, that's great.

Exactly. And as I mentioned, you know, this book has also unfolded and evolved in the course of my work with many professionals across all spheres, all across the globe and so on. But it's also enriched with expert testimony, expert interviews. So you had, you had Gary Nestner on your episode. Gary is one of the contributors who shares his insights. Jack Cambria from NYPD is also one of the experts. Bob Cialdini also contributed with his shame, sharing some of his principles, some of some of his thoughts on the negotiation process. And apart from that, I have a lot of business professionals from all across the world, from different industries, all across the organizational level, who have also shared. So it's not only the process, it's not just the strategies and the psychological empowerment, but it's actually something very practical that. With very practical recommendations. Although it's my third book, I still don't claim that I know it all and hopefully it stays that way. So I do also rely and I think that one of the critical elements is also the expert's testimony to see what others, how other people are looking at the topics. So each chapter of the book is enriched with expert testimony.

That's great because like you Said it makes it more practical. And I think it also again, speaks to what you were trying to accomplish with empowerment. Because our minds will come up with different reasons why certain things wouldn't work in different scenarios. Because you might say, oh, well, you know, I'm a contract negotiator. It doesn't work for me. Oh, wait, there's an example. But I'm a hostage negotiator. Theater. It doesn't work for me. Oh my gosh. It's Gary Nestner. Right. So it's, it's a great way to demonstrate the general applicability of these powerful principles of psychology and self empowerment and negotiation strategies and tactics that can be applied across industries and across domains.

Definitely. And perception is the only reality. It's great to see different perceptions, different perspectives on the same, on the same theme as well and compare to how other people. I know I do that. You know, I'm always very interested how other negotiators, how they think, how they see things. You always learn something. There's always an insight or an angle that you've not thought about. So I think that's quite, quite a nice element as well.

Absolutely. Kasia, this has been amazing as always. I really appreciate you coming on and I know it's late where you are, so I appreciate your energy today. You're exceptional. And before you go, please remind the listeners again about the book and how the can get in touch with you.

I will repeat the title again. It's the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. I actually have it here next to me. It's a comprehensive guide for executing valuable deals and partnerships. Our listeners can get in touch with me via LinkedIn or my website, www.neotiationbooster.com to close off the discussion. Kwame, maybe something that we've not mentioned, value creation. You know, not just deal making, but adding value. We talked about personal value. We talked about because confidence, after all, is one of the fundamental personal values that one can create for oneself in all spheres of life. I would say professional and personal, but also adding value to the partnerships, long lasting partnerships right now, which I think is a very important aspect.

I agree 100%. I'm so excited for you and thank you for coming on the show and thanks again for writing another awesome book.

Thank you for having me. You're an amazing host. I love listening to your podcast with other experts usually when I drive in between meetings. It's fantastic the work that you do, Kwame. So thank you very much on behalf of myself and on behalf of the professional community.

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