Talking on Eggshells with Sam Horn

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Foreign.

Sam, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much, Kwame. I'm looking forward to sharing some examples and insights your listeners can use.

I love it. This is great. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, I'm very fortunate. You know, Katherine Graham of the Washington Post said, to do what you love and feel that it matters, how could anything be more fun? Well, that's what we get to do. I get to speak for groups like Oracle and Accenture and intel, and I write books like the new one coming out, talking on eggshells. Tongfu has been out in the world for 20 years. And then I get to consult as well and help people with their TEDx talks and their books.

I love it. I love it. And first of all, naming a book is really hard to do. And I just want to give you credit because this name, I really, really love this name, you know?

Thank you. In fact, I wrote a book about that called Pop. And I think you may know that I helped start and run the Maui writers conference for 17 years. Writers Digest said it was the best writers conference in the world. And I learned firsthand that we've got 60 seconds in order to get our book to get eyebrows up. Oh, I haven't heard that before. Oh, that sounds interesting. Oh, tell me more. And so I really believe there's a system for coming up with a title that gets those eyebrows up. So people say, tell me more, which means we got what we care about in their mental door.

Oh, it's brilliant. I love it. I love it. This is great. Now, actually, let's take this in a unique direction because you've been doing this at an exceptionally high level, and I'd love to get an idea of the trends that you've seen with the clients that you've worked with and problems that you've helped to solve. If you were to encapsulate the key elements of somebody who is a great communicator and can resolve conflicts effectively, what are the commonalities you see in all industries across time?

What a great question, Kwame. So there's two things. One, a quick story, because you and I are both storytellers, right? Is that I grew up in a small town, more horses than people. And so I was. I was selected to be the valedictorian for my 8th grade class. You know, big deal, small town, right? So I gave my little homily, the bird leaving the nest talk to my dad, and I asked him what he thought, and he knew I wanted honest feedback, so I said, it's an okay talk. He said, you just didn't say anything I hadn't heard before. And I said, well, dad, there's nothing new under the sun. He said, sure there is. He said, you know what the definition of original is if people haven't heard it before? So, Kwame, I think the first prerequisite for a successful communicator is to ask ourselves, is this a cliche? Is this a platitude? Have people heard this before? If they have, they're rolling their eyes. And Richard Branson says, the clock starts ticking the second we start talking. Time is the new money, and I think time is a new trust. So I believe we've got 60 seconds to get people's eyebrows up, to get them intrigued. To think I haven't heard that before. I want to know more. And of course, there are specific ways to do that.

Let's jump into them, because I am intrigued. And I love this idea of the 60 second window because it makes it so real for people. So where should we start? With the 60 seconds. What should we do?

Boom. Okay. Now, unless people are driving, I hope they have paper and pen, because that was the number one takeaway of the Maui Writers Conference. Ink it when we think it. So put a vertical line down the center of your paper because people say, sam, how does your brain work? I juxtapose everything. I think it's the quickest way to make complex ideas crystal clear. So at the top of the left hand column, put infobesity. Call me. We do not want Infobesity. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Over on the right, put Intrigue. Now I'll give you a 60 second example about how to shift info obesity into Intrigue. Ready?

Ready.

Okay. Haven't we been taught to tell people what we're going to tell them and then tell them what we told them and then tell them, you know, that's a bore, snore or chore. Right. So from now on, do not explain what you do. Do not tell people about your project. Do not describe the work you do. Over on the right, here's a quick example and then we'll unpack it so people can do it immediately for something they care about. Sound good?

Yeah.

Okay, so I think, you know, I was this. I was the coach for Springboard Enterprises. We helped entrepreneurs get 26 billion in funding valuation. So I helped a woman and she said, sam, I've got good news, bad news. Bad news is that I'm going at 2:00 clock in the afternoon and there's only 10 minutes. You can't say anything in 10 minutes. I said, Kwame, you don't have 10 minutes.

You have 60 seconds.

60 seconds. Okay, here's the 60 second opening we came up with that helped her get millions of funding. Ready?

Let's go.

Did you know there are 1.8 billion vaccinations given every year? Did you know up to a third of them are given with reused needles? Imagine if there were a painless one. Use needle for a fraction of the current cost. You don't have to imagine it. We've done it. Now, are your eyebrows up, Kwame? Yes. She used to explain what Pharmajet was. She used to say, it's a medical delivery device for subcutaneous inoculations. Are you going, what? Are your eyebrows crunched up? I tell you, confused. People don't say, yes. And if we try and tell people what they do and they're going, huh? They don't say yes. They don't keep listening. So three things ask. Three did you know? Questions with startling statistics about the problem you solve, about the issue you address, about the need that you meet. Now, in case, Kwame, you're thinking, where do I find those startling statistics? Your gts? You Google that stuff because if this were workshop, you could say, all right, Sam, I'm negotiating with a contractor to do have an annual contract or to speak at their big annual event or something like that. We could say, okay, what's the industry? What's the major problem? And is it the great resignation? Is it supply chain or whatever? You could put into search what are startling statistics about blank and up would come things you didn't know. I didn't know it was that bad. I didn't know it was getting worse. I didn't know that many people were being affected. You ask, did you know that? Did you? People going, wow, second step. Know what it is? The word imagine. One word, imagine. Because the word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation. See, they're not distracted. They're picturing your point. They're seeing what you're saying. Now link the word imagine with three benefits of what it is you're pitching. Now go back to Kathleen Callender. What were her decision makers thinking about? Well, those reused needles. So we made it one use. They're thinking about painful inoculations. We made it painless. And most decision makers care about money. We made it a fraction of the current cost. Do you see how in one succinct sentence we created a. Who wouldn't want that, right? Third step. You don't have to imagine it. We're doing it now. You come in with your precedents, your evidence to show this isn't pie in the sky or speculative. This is a done deal. You and your team are ready to do it. You do that in 60 seconds, Kwame. You just gave yourself a competitive edge.

It's incredible. I'm taking all of these notes. I think it's so great, Sam, because you've given people a really simple framework that they can put into action that has been time tested and works. I think that's really what's powerful about it. Because a lot of times that fear of having the difficult conversation often manifests itself in terms of overthinking. And so we spin our wheels in perpetuity. But you've given us a really simple way to really conquer those first 60 seconds, which are probably the most important seconds of the entire conversation.

Well, of course. Now you just set it up and can we hit the next one out of the park, Kwame?

Let's do it.

So we talked about the first 60 seconds, and as you say, we have to have them at hello. We either lose them at hello and 60 seconds in, they're thinking, this is a waste of my time. I have no idea. Idea what they're talking about. You know, I've heard it before. And they're gone, right? If we're long, they're gone. So that's the first 60 seconds. Hey, let's talk about the last 60 seconds, shall we?

Let's do it.

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So that's the first 60 seconds. Hey, let's talk about the last 60 seconds, shall we?

Let's do it.

Okay, now if you're taking notes, over on the left, put passive close. Because do you know how most people end a presentation, a negotiation, a pitch?

They don't ask for anything.

So true. Call me. They say, thank you. Right. Thank you for your time. If you have any questions, talk about leaving money on the table. Right? So you and I both believe in stories. Here's the example and then we'll unpack it. So from now on, we know what to say in the last 30 seconds. So I'm working with Marcia. Marcia was a former executive with mtv. Once again, she's pitching for funding for her startup. So I said, Marcia, Jack Welch said, if you don't have a competitive edge, don't compete. I said, if you don't have a competitive edge, you can't compete. So everyone else is going over time. Everyone else is running out of time and saying thank you and trailing off, here's what you're going to do. And here's her 62nd close. Once again, I'm Marcia. I'm the one with the white spiky hair. At our next break at 2:30, I'm going to be in our booth in the lobby by the registration desk. If you'd like a product demonstration, if you'd like to talk with our CFO about our finances, if you'd like to talk with our CMO about how we're going to scale visibility through social media, please come out and talk with us. Once again, I'm Marcia with the white spiky hair. Look forward to seeing you at 2:30. Kwame, guess who is surrounded by people at 2:30? Marcia with the white spiky hair. Right. So here's step one. We say Our name with a pause and a punch. Because most people say, my name is Sam Horn. You go, huh? See, they rush and they blush. They put their name, their two names together. If people can't repeat it, they didn't get it. So look what happens if we say my name is Sam. Pause, pause, pause, punch, Horn. Do you see how if it's first name, pause, pause, pause, punch. People can repeat it after hearing it once? And that's good, because if people cannot remember your name, they do not go up and talk to you because it's awkward. Right? Now, reference something you're wearing. I'm Kwame. And is it Kwame Christian. Okay, I'm. It's not Kwame Christian. Right? I'm Kwame Punch Christian. Right. I'm the one in the smart blue jacket, right? Do you see how people will be able to pick you out in a sea of suits? Because it's not just a blue jacket, it's with a red. What do you call those things in your pocket, Kwame?

Pocket square, pocket square.

I'm the one in the white turtleneck and the style and blue jacket and the red pocket square. We even have a little iambic meter right now. Second step, where and when can they continue the conversation with you? You know, it's like, I'll be back in Austin the first week of August. I'll be in my office from 2 to 4 at lunch. I'm going to be over at the table on the right hand corner. And I welcome your question and comments. So tell them where and when they can find you. And then third step, what are three options that would actually give them the incentive to want to continue the conversation? So if you're speaking, you may say, you know, once again, my name is Kwame Boom, boom, boom Christian. I'm the one, you know, in the, in the blue jacket with the red pocket square. You know, at our next break, I'm going to be in the lobby over by the ficus tree. If you'd like a copy of that article that I mentioned in my presentation, or if you'd like this one pager that you can post by your laptop or put on your refrigerator, or if you think my I wish my team could have heard this, please come out and talk to me. I'd love to connect with you, hear your stories, your questions. So guess who's going to be surrounded at that next break? Kwame?

That would be me. I love this. This is great. First of all, I was excited to see because in your story, it was the woman with the white, spiky hair. I was like, well, I don't have hair, Sam, so let's see how you describe me. But I like your description. Thank you. And I love this. Again, we are giving people very clear instructions on how to close the deal. And I think what's great about is that it doesn't feel pushy, it doesn't feel forced, and it gives you a clear outline for next steps. And then I also really appreciate the how to say your name because we often just mumble through it. And for me, I have a name that's not very popular in the United States. And so when I say it really fast, I have to recognize people probably didn't catch it the first time. So this is really helpful for me too because it's going to change the way that I introduce myself. Just owning that a little bit more. Kwame Christian.

Enunciating that Kwame and punch is he you. When I say punch, you actually you, you voice it a little bit more powerfully. Right. Because that lands it. And you know, Kwame, often we point in the sky, paint in the sky. My name is Kwame Christian. And guess what? People will walk up to you at the next convention saying, oh, you're Kwame Christian. Because the, the inflection and the emphasis imprints it in a way that we can repeat it after hearing it once.

It's brilliant. I love this and I can see how clearly this works in like a pitch situation. But let's say we are. It's more of a casual conversation. How do we utilize, or let me ask you this way. Can we utilize the same kind of framework in a more casual type of setting?

Of course. In fact, let's switch gears because we could keep sharing techniques on in business situations, how to in the first 60 seconds, turn resistance into receptivity, to turn resentment into rapport, etc. So let. Shall you use a personal situation?

Sure, let's do it.

Okay. Let's talk about what to do when something goes wrong. Okay. Someone's made a mistake, Someone's doing something they shouldn't. Right. So over on the left. Well, let's give the example and then we'll fill in what not to do and what to do, what not to say, what to say. So I'm visiting my son Andrew in New York and we're in the living room getting caught up and his one year old son, Hero crawls across the floor, hauls himself up on a guitar stand and starts banging on the strings of the guitar. Now Andrew could have said no he could have said, leave it alone. He could have yanked the guitar away. Which would have made Hero feel bad, right? Like he had done something wrong. Do you know what he said instead, Kwame?

What'd he say?

One word. Gentleman. Call me. I saw Hero's face change in that moment. And he reached out to the guitar and he went, strum, strum, strum. And he reached up to some bells on the window. He went, ring, ring, ring. And at that moment, one year old Hero made music because Andrew chose to shape his behavior instead of shame it. So when things go wrong over on the left, we often use words like don't interrupt me, don't be late. Stop yelling at me. All of those words actually reinforce the dreaded behavior. Over on the right, what do we want them to start instead of stop? How can they keep this from happening next time instead of telling them what they should have done? Because now over on the right, we're a coach. Over on the left, we're a critic. Over on the right, they're learning from the situation instead of on the left, losing face over the situation. And my dad used to say, sam, you can't motivate people to do better by making them feel bad. And when something goes wrong and we tell people what they should have done, what they shouldn't have done, what we want them to stop doing, what we want them not to do, we actually imprint and perpetuate the dreaded behavior over on the right, if we focus on what we want them to start doing, on how they can do it better next time. Now we're teaching them how to do it better instead of making them feel bad.

Oh, this is good. This is good. And for me, as a leader, this is very helpful. It's great reinforcement. To make sure that we're using more positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. But then also for me as a father, two sons need to. There are always ways that we can improve in that regard. But I think what's really powerful about this is the fact that with everything that we've talked about today, it's all been very, very practical, easy tweaks that we can easily put into practice, but it can help you in every single relationship. And I think that's what's so cool about it.

You know, you just. My dad used to say, if someone gives you a compliment, it's always welcome. However, if they're a peer and if they pinpoint a value of yours, it's even more meaning. That's one of my goals, is that people think, wow, I can use this. This afternoon. Wow. I can use this with my kids tonight. Wow. I can use this with my customers tomorrow. In fact, would you like an example of a situation that we can use personally and professionally?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. This is my 84 year old aunt Kwame. My 84 year old aunt Kay volunteers at a hospital. Five days a week, she drives to the hospital to help out at the help desk. Now, she did this even during COVID And I asked her what it was like and she said, stressful. I said, what's an example where someone was yelling at you or someone was upset or taking their frustration out on you and you use these tong fu techniques. He's talking on eggshell techniques, to turn it around. And she thought about it, and then she said, something just happened last week. She said, a woman came rushing in through those open double doors. She held her phone up. She said, I just got a text from my daughter. She's in the er. She was in a car accident. I need to get in and see her. Well, you may remember the policy was no visitors for any of the patients or one visitor per day. Well, Aunt Kay called the er. There was somebody already with the daughter. She had to tell the mother that she could not get in to see her daughter. And the woman lost it. And she's screaming. It's like, I can't believe you. How could you? Now? Kay asked herself, four words that completely transformed the situation. Do you know what those four words were? How would I feel? How would I feel if my daughter was in an accident? I knew she was in the ER and I couldn't get in to see her. And Kwame, those four words transformed her from impatience to empathy. They turned contempt into compassion. And they transform. There's nothing I can do. Don't blame me. It's not my fault. I didn't make the rules. All of that is reactive on the left, right. Don't blame me. It's not my fault. And they gave her the incentive to see what is something I can do. She called the ER back. She said, who was with the daughter? It was the Uber driver who had brought her in. She was able to explain the situation to him, thank him. He left. The mother was able to get with the daughter. So see, call me. These aren't. This isn't semantics, right? In that situation, there are two people that look like they're adversaries. And if we react. Why are you taking out on me? This isn't fair. How rude of them. I'm so offended. Reactive. Make it worse. Over on the Right. How would I feel? And we may not like or agree with their behavior. We may understand it. And that gives us the incentive to determine nothing I can do to. Let's see if there's something I can do. So great.

And I love that perspective of how would I feel if I were in this situation. And it takes a high level of self awareness to recognize that this limbic response, the response from the amygdala that might be triggering us to fight flight or free flee, is going to lead us to make a bad decision in this conversation. And so to be able to inject a little bit of time, the power of the pause, into that moment and ask yourself that question subconsciously before re engaging that in itself is a very, very powerful skill. And I love everything about this story because it's so instructive.

See, you're making my day. And by the way, one of my books got your attention is with Barrett Kohler. And I was talking with Steve Persante, who's the publisher there, and I said, so what's your criteria for publishing a book? And. And do you know what he said? Show me the shift. So do you see? That's why over on the left are. It's reactive. Over on the right, proactive. Over on the left, you know, is conflict. Over on the right is cooperation. And by showing this is how we often react in a situation, we say whatever on the tip of our tongue, we make it worse. Here, as you just said, Kwame pause. Ask yourself, will I be sorry I said this tomorrow? Is there a better way to say this? Is there a way that I can find solutions rather than fault? Then we can be first, we can be the pattern interrupt that treats people with respect, even in the heat of the moment, and it motivates them to respond in kind.

I love this. And again, the beautiful thing about this, Sam, is that there is nothing overly complicated or complex about what we're asking people to do. And, and what we recognize is that proper behaviors often flow organically from the proper mindsets. And just by, like you said, shifting from impatience to empathy, we might not even have to give them specific tactics or tools or strategies to use. Because just by utilizing the proper mindset for the situation, you naturally start to.

Move in the right direction, the proper mindset and skillset. So let's talk about what if someone makes an accusation, right? Someone says, you don't care about your customers. We do too care about our customers. Now we're arguing with our customers about whether we care about our customers, right? So I'M speaking at a leadership class, and a woman puts her hand up and she said, sam, why are women so catty to each other? Now, Kwame, I know that if we deny an accusation, we reinforce that accusation, right? If someone says, now don't get mad. And we say, I'm not mad. If someone says, you women are so emotional, we say, we are not emotional. Now we are. So I. Don Drapered this. So over on the left. If someone makes an accusation, do not deny it and do not defend it. Because if someone says, you don't care about your customers, and we say, we do too care about our customers, now we are arguing and reinforcing and imprinting their point. So back to this women's leadership program. Don Draper in Mad Men said, if you don't like what's being said, change the conversation. So see, we do not repeat the accusation or we will reinforce the accusation. We change the conversation by saying what we do want to go on record for instead of what we don't. So with her, I said, ladies, let's agree to never ask or answer that question again. Because every time we do, we perpetuate that stereotype. Instead, we just say, do you know what I found? And that's a wonderful bridge to do you know what I found? Women are real champions of each other. I wouldn't have the speaking engagement if so and so hadn't recommended me. And so do you see, you change the conversation once again to what you do believe, what you do want to discuss, what you do want to stand for, instead of trying to refute people's accusations, which means we reinforce them.

Incredible. And I think the. Sam, the timing of this is perfect because I. Yesterday I was not happy at a. At a store, and I accused them of not caring for their people. And so I was thinking to myself, I was like, yeah, what should they have said to me? Because they didn't handle it well. Okay.

By the way, let's. Let's revisit. Say if they had. If you had said, you don't care about your customers. If they had said, what do you mean? Because you may say, hey, my special order was supposed to be here. It took me half an hour to park. I come in, it's not waiting for me. By saying four words, they just revealed the real issue. If they, if you had said, well, my reservation was at 7:00'. Clock. It's 7:30 and we're still waiting. They could have said, oh, we understand. You're right. Your reservation was at 7 o'. Clock. We are so Sorry that you've been waiting. I see a table being cleared right now. Thank you for your patience, Mr. Christian. We'll have you at your table two minutes. See, asking what do you mean? What makes you say that puts the ball back in the other person's court. They will often tell you why they're upset. Now we can fix that instead of going back and forth about whether or not we care about our customers.

Oh, this is so good. Yeah. Again, timing is great because I'm thinking about this too, and you're absolutely right. If they would have said, what do you mean? I would have been essentially forced to respond to that and explain myself, which would have given them the information they need to continue the conversation and address the situation. That's great. Now, you know what I'm going to do, Sam? What I'm going to do is I'm going to take this episode, I'm going to send it to them once this goes live. You remember me. This is great, Sam. I really appreciate this. And I know listeners are probably saying to themselves, okay, I need more Sam in my life. So for you, can you again remind them about your new book and how they can work with you?

Thank you so much. It's really easy. You can go to samhorn.com so it's s a m h o r n.com now. Talking on Eggshells is coming out in a few days. Now I'm offering as my give back to people a couple of opportunities on June 5th at 7 o' clock central if they want to be at our birthday party, I'm going to have special guests, some of our endorsers, Dr. Ivan Meisner, who's the founder of B and I and so forth. So that's going to be a fun birthday party with a few best practices. Now, if they're thinking, oh, I wish my customer service team had heard this, or I wish our sales reps had heard this or our emerging leaders. On June 6th at 12 noon Central, I'm doing a mini training and I hope you have a pen and paper because we're going to rock and roll about situations that we face almost every day at work with co workers and clients. And we'll talk about how to set up rapport and turn resistance into respect so that people are motivated to respond in kind. And we're on the same side instead of side against side.

This is so great, Sam. I really appreciate it. Thanks again for spending time with us today.

I enjoyed it. Hope people found it interesting and useful.

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