Texts and Tensions: Effective Conflict Resolution Techniques with Veronica Cravener, Esq.

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Veronica, thanks for joining us today.

Hey, Kwame, thanks for having me. And it's good to be back.

Yes, it's good to have you back. One of our most popular episodes. It's good to have the champion back in town.

No pressure, right? No pressure.

Right. So for those of you who don't know, Veronica, maybe what you could do is give them a brief overview of what you do.

Sure, sure. So I happen to be an attorney by background, but actually in my professional life, I've spent more time working as a mediator than an attorney. So I really just more self identify as a mediator. I work for our local municipal court in the small claims and mediation department, and I really focus much of my time in our mediation programs. And for your listeners who might not be familiar with mediation, basically, mediation is an opportunity to resolve something outside of a courtroom in a way that works for. And a mediator is essentially a neutral third party who can basically assist parties in trying to negotiate their own resolution. So the mediator can help parties share information, share settlement offers, but ultimately, the mediator doesn't make a decision. It's up to parties to make that sort of decision.

Fantastic. And so I'm excited to have you on today to talk about negotiating and resolving conflicts via text message and email, those type of things, because you have a particularly unique background in it, given your experience in ODR online dispute resolution. Can you tell the audience about that, too?

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, it's some pretty exciting stuff. Just like more and more things in other parts of our line of our lives are going online, so too is resolving disputes. So we're pretty fortunate that we've got access to the technology that allows us to try to resolve pending court cases and even situations before they get to the stage of being a court case outside of a courtroom, and not just over the phone or in person, but we've also got the online option. So I essentially describe it to people as resolving some sort of dispute one text message at a time is essentially how I describe it.

Very, very cool. And one of the coolest things I heard was 15 minutes ago about the stats with the success rate, because for me as a mediator, I was really surprised to see how successful it is. And you actually have the data to back it up.

Yeah, it's really interesting. So lately I've been thinking about those same things, comparing sort of the offline versus online results. And I'm putting together an article, and I've got a data set right now of 30 mediations that have completed the online mediation process. And the settlement rate for those types of mediations is 50%. And these are the types of mediations that can be pretty tricky. It's very frequent. It's very common for parties to be at complete disagreement at the beginning. You know, one says that an amount of money was a gift. Another says there's a loan. Parties may have multiple issues to discuss. So they can be pretty tricky for a mediator. I know you've done many of those, Kwame. And when I compare that Data set of 30 mediations online with a 50% settlement rate to the offline ones that we've done, so the telephone or in person for the same types of issues. I took a random sample of 30 of those and the settlement rate was only 37%. Sure. It's a smaller sample size. It remains to be seen. Will that trend continue? Will we continue to see a higher settlement rate for the online ones as compared to the offline ones? That remains to be seen, but it's really encouraging so far. And in fact, I'll tell you, there have been a few occasions where I've mediated some of those issues online, and I thought to myself, I don't really think this one is going to work out. And then a few days later, all of a sudden, settlement is reached. And so I think there is something to the online environment that I think is impacting those results. So I'm excited with the results, so. And, you know, excited to see what's going to happen for the future of it.

Right. Very cool. Yeah. And I think it's especially pertinent today when probably at this point, the majority of our interactions with people are digital. And so a lot of. A lot of people, especially younger people, are preferring to interact with each other over text message. And so when you think about communication in general, a significant amount of it will be in the form of conflict in some way. And so I think it's really important for the listeners out there to learn how to handle these conversations via text message, because they will happen whether we want them to or not. And so in preparation for this, we talked about three tools or tactics or things to keep in mind when negotiating or resolving conflict via text message. What are those three. And then let's jump into it.

Yeah, sure. So three things I could think of for the first one is pacing. So it's probably going to be a slower process than what would otherwise take place offline, right over the phone or in person. The second one is really just sort of keeping it simple. And then the third is, I would say, just before you go from one step to the next, confirm that you're understanding where you're at. So, yeah, I think those are the three keys that I've really noticed as to what matters when you're in a digital environment versus, I guess, real time.

Perfect. Good deal. So, yeah, let's start off with pacing. When it comes to pacing, we know now is going to be slower than most of these conversations. How do you manage that? What changes in the way that you approach the conversation?

So I would say that's where pacing and keeping it simple really go hand in hand. So when I'm working with parties and our online mediations, and I think this could be applicable to your listeners and digital negotiations, I ask one question at a time and one issue at a time. So I wait till I get a response from the party to that one question, or I wait till I get a piece of information before moving on, versus if I compare to when I'm over the phone or in a room with someone, I might ask multiple things all at once and then get those answers. And I can clarify really quickly right then and there. But because it's digital. And at least in our circumstances, it's all asynchronous. I think that's what necessitates the slower pace. So in terms of what that might look like for your listeners, like, I'll just share sort of our stats. I mean, the average number of days that someone has been in our online mediations is 77 days.

Oh my gosh.

Right. That's a super long time. Now I'm not saying you're going to negotiate something for 77 days. It probably just varies based on the environment. But that's just what it is for our mediations versus the ones that are offline are, you know, one two hour session. So that's just something to think about, considering your context. Whatever it is, whatever sort of situation, you know, it might be slower and you might need to do kind of more piecemeal than what you would otherwise do in person or over the phone.

That's fascinating. And what impact do you think that has on the psychology of the parties involved?

So I think because it gives people time to reflect, I think they are not reaching that point where they are eliciting those fight or flight responses than you and I have talked about before. So I think they aren't getting to the point where they're so angry. So I think because of that, people stay in the process longer and because at least the way that ours is set up, they aren't taking hours out of their day to participate. They are just fitting it into the five or 10 minutes that they've got available throughout the day during their busy lives and they're making it work for them. So I think the big thing is reflection. I don't think I'm saying anything any different. I think I'm just dividing it up into short pieces. I'm not wearing people out. So maybe they don't have the opportunity to experience that decision fatigue that we might otherwise see in a two hour session because they're not wearing themselves out. And I don't have to spend time getting people back on track because they're not really getting angry. So I think because they're not getting angry, they're sticking with the process. And then also, I mean, you and I know we talk about all these various books and I read one book recently just the you need positive emotions to sort of elicit. I think they call it the broaden and build theory to help people be creative. And so my theory after looking through these online mediations is because people aren't becoming angry, they are more creative. And I Think that's why I'm seeing some of the more creative solutions take place online versus over the phone or in person in one two hour session.

I love that. Yes, and I agree completely. It makes so much sense because whenever you think about the amygdala and the limbic system, the response happen very quickly. If you are in the jungle and a tiger approaches, you don't sit and think about whether or not you should run. Right. It happens really fast. And so when you're in a difficult conversation and you have that limbic response, you say something that you regret very quickly. And so with this process, it slows it down because you can't have that level of sustained anger for 77 days. And so for the listeners out there, your conflicts probably won't last 77 days via text.

Hopefully not. Right?

Right. But if you spread it out, you have that benefit because you're not in that emotional state. And like you said, when it comes to your ability to think creatively, that comes from having a positive mindset. The limbic response forces you to get tunnel vision. You can only focus on what's right in front of you, the threat that you see. But if you have a more positive mindset, you can be more creative and think thoroughly.

And we know too. I think you and I have talked about this before. I mean, when folks are angry, they're less able to perceive risk. So I think that's also part of it.

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And another thing I wanted to talk about was the decision fatigue, because I think that's important. I can't remember specifically what the amount of time was, but in general, people can stay laser focused on something for approximately 90 minutes. Wow. Before they start to fade. And so if we are at a point where we're at the two hour session, people are just going to, they're going to tap out, they're going to want to quit just to end this thing. And when you think also about the studies that were done. I think it was in Israel with judges that were deciding whether or not people were going to go on parole. What they found was at the beginning of the morning, a lot of people were getting the ability to go on parole. Then towards the end of the morning, judges were saying no. And then in the early afternoon, they were saying, all right, yes, you can go on parole at a higher level. Then towards the end of the afternoon, it was no. So the reason was their brains were getting tired, they were hungry, and they needed a rest. And so when you are tired or fatigued, like decision fatigue, like you said, you're going to go with the safest answer, the quickest answer, and that's going to be no. And so when you're in these mediations, when they start to fade, they're just going to say no and leave. But here, since it's a more drawn out process, they're not getting fatigued, so they can actually stay in the conversation for a longer period of time.

Right. And it's just short bursts. And I think because it's so convenient, people are just fitting it into their lives in between few minutes here and there. And the interesting thing I really should point out, in terms of the average number of days, the 77 days, that sounds like a super huge long amount of time. And it is. But the thing is, we're not hearing from folks every single day. Like, there may be gaps of time. Sometimes it's a few weeks at a time, sometimes it's a couple days. And likewise, from my standpoint as the mediator, I'm not necessarily able to respond the instant that someone posts something because we've got other mediations going on. So there's some delay on both sides. So I think it's helpful that, you know, both the parties and myself as the mediator, I mean, I'm not fatigued, you know, so I have the ability to go back over, read through previous messages that have been sent, think through more about what I want my response to be. Just like, they have that same opportunity.

I love that. That's really cool. All right, let's move on to number two. We have keep it simple. So what do you mean by that?

Yeah, so when we first implemented online mediation, I had the tendency to ask multiple questions at once or make multiple statements. And then I would get a response that would say something like yes or no or something really brief. And then I'd have to go back and say, oh, wait, what did you say yes to? You know, so that's where I learned, okay, I've got to ask one question at a time or share one piece of information at a time and wait for a response. So that's what I mean by keeping it simple. And I think this is, I might be mispronouncing the principle, but I think is it called the Pareto principle in economics, okay, where, you know, 80% of the results comes from 20% of the effort. And I think that's what I have really seen online. For example, I probably spend far less time asking devil's advocate type questions. So, you know, Kwame, from doing mediation training, one of the techniques that they teach mediators is when parties are reaching impasse to ask some devil's advocate type questions. So ask, you know, what's your best alternative to a negotiated agreement? What's your worst alternative to a negotiated agreement? I probably get to that point quicker in person or over the phone. And you know, as I think back and reflect on these 30 mediations that I've done online, I have done that so much less. I think the only reason why I haven't asked those devil advocate type questions as much is because I really haven't had the need to. Because since people are in a more positive, just from what I can gather from the text, right? Like I'm not getting things in all caps, I'm not getting curse words. Like it's all, for the most part, very, very productive people are coming up with solutions on their own. So I think that's where I just haven't had to spend as much time in asking those devil advocate type questions. I've been able to ask some questions and share information that one side gives me permission to share with the other. But for the most part, people are coming up with solutions on their own. If there's a solution to be had through that process, you know, something that.

Just came to mind for me and it doesn't, I don't think it fits neatly within any of those three. But I think about the way that in a difficult conversation you might want to say something very quickly, but when you're writing a text, it takes some time. So you have your thumbs going, you'll make a mistake. You have to backspace a little bit. Then you say it again. And then at the end you have to ask yourself, do I want to send this? And I know for me, in conversations with friends and family, when I've gotten a little bit heated, I have written these massive text messages. And then at the end I say, do I really want to do this, then I delete it. It's like there are built in mechanisms in the process that ask people, hey, are you sure? And I think that helps in the process. And of course it also helps because you're in between the two people in this situation. But I know, at least in my experience, going directly to people, that those additional little checks that come in and slow me down have helped.

Yeah, I would agree wholeheartedly. And it might also be just something about seeing yourself typing the words that maybe also makes you say, hey, do I really want to send this?

Yeah, makes sense. That's really interesting. Perfect. And so let's do number three.

Okay. And so the third thing is I've noticed just the importance of confirming that you're understanding what the other side is saying. So I will probably spend more time online summarizing kind of each phase of the discussion back and forth just to make sure I'm understanding one point before we move on to the next. Because the nature of these online conversations, I found if I don't do that, then I have to spend so much more time going back and potentially rehashing things that have already been discussed.

That's interesting. And you know what's really interesting about all of this? It seems like these are skills that we could use in our in person conversations too. But it seems like in the text message type of conflict resolution scenario, the skills are magnified.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I guess that's really all you can rely on, you know, but absolutely. I mean, I think they're definitely applicable to over the phone or in person, those sorts of real time conversations, but it's probably just harder to do. Right. You mentioned the scenario, like how many times have any of us said something in the moment that we thought, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way. And it's just, I agree with what you mentioned earlier. It seems like sort of a text based environment. Maybe it's real time, maybe not. There's just naturally that built in editing process. Like you have to actually press send. You can type it and you can type it all out and then maybe, maybe you read it over because it's so long. And then you have to decide, do I really want to send it? Versus when you're talking, the words just come out. And then it might be a few seconds later that you think to yourself, oh, maybe I could have said something differently.

Right. And you're right. When it comes to this third point of summarizing, often it's really, really important to do because again, even though you could look back and read what they said. I think there's a bit of arrogance that comes with that we say, okay, I read it, I get what they're saying, but do you really? And I think a good way to do it. In my experience having conflicts over text message, I would say, is it fair to say blank? And I would summarize it in using their words, but in a way that I really am understanding. Because sometimes people will say certain things, but they would mask what they're really saying in politeness or something like that. And even though they're doing it to spare you, it doesn't help you because you're not getting pure information. And so always taking the time to summarize, even if you think you understand clearly what they're saying is going to be helpful.

Oh, definitely. Just one other point that I've noticed too is when I've taken the time to summarize and when I've used all these principles, you know, I've slowed things down, I've kept it simple, I summarize and I do that one by one for each point. It is amazing just how much more politeness I've experienced in this online environment as compared to when I think of my offline mediations. And it was at the point where I've actually compiled some data on this too. And I think it was something like over 90% of the communications that I've had online have been what I would consider either positive. So people are saying things like thank you for your help and I appreciate your assistance. I don't get nearly that many thank yous or expressions of appreciation. I mean, I don't know. But I don't know about you, Kwame. Maybe you're, maybe everyone's high fiving you and, and giving you lots of thank yous and stuff. But I mean, when I, you know, all jokes aside, when I think about my in person or phone mediations, I don't get nearly the same like thank yous as I do with these online ones. And so I think it's something about that process, that slower pacing, keeping it simple, summarizing that people must appreciate. Either that or maybe it's just sort of a reflex that maybe we're just to saying thank you when someone types something that I don't know, I guess it's one of the two. But that's one thing I've noticed is it's been a very positive and productive experience. And the amount of what I would categorize as negative communications online is so few and far between it's overwhelmingly positive or neutral, which I would still consider productive.

Right. No, I like that. I like that a lot. And you know what's interesting, thinking back to in person mediations or phone mediations versus text message type of situations, one of the things that I'll go ahead and say it as a mediator is annoying is when the party keeps on ranting about the same thing over and over and over again. And it's like, okay, we get it. And then they tell the story again.

Right. And it's like they get, they get stuck in that rumination. Right. And I will say, and that's another great thing, great point. And maybe I should consider for my article further. Right. I don't see nearly the same instances of rumination online. And I have to wonder if it just goes back to what you mentioned earlier, that self editing process. I mean, because if I think about my own text conversations, am I really going to send the same text message over and over and over and over? No, but I might say the same thing over and over and not realize, oh, I'm just saying 10 different variations of the same thing. So yeah, that's another interesting aspect of, you know, trying to, to mediate or for your listeners, negotiate in the digital environment.

Yeah. And you know what's interesting for people who have read the book, you know, that I intentionally engage in conflict with people around me because it helps the relationship. Whenever you see something wrong in the relationship, you have those conversations. It makes it better. And so in most cases, because of my experience doing this, it goes really well. But there are going to be certain people who really struggle with difficult conversations. No matter how well you approach it, how respectful and kind and patient you are, they will interpreted as a threat and a negative environment and a negative experience. And so what I found is that with those same people, handling it very slowly via text message has been more successful because there's more distance, physical distance and temporal distance as well. And it seems like the slower pace helps them in situations where the person is not very well versed or skilled in conflict resolution.

Yeah, it seems like it's. It's all about fit. Right. So with the online environment, is it right for every single type of dispute? Like would I want to have certain conversations in the digital environment? Probably not everyone. Right. So it's just a matter of kind of matching the right forum for the conversation. But I mean, at least, you know, from what I'm seeing so far and the types of things that we're mediating and we're typically Mediating, like landlord tenant issues, for example, consumer business issues, you know, issues between co workers or friends, like, for example, like personal loans, that sort of situation, those seem to be working out individuals and participants who are choosing this environment. It seems to be a positive experience so far. But yeah, as with most things in life, it's a matter of finding the right fit.

Exactly. And I think that's one of the most important takeaways for the listeners today is to realize that there are multiple options for these difficult conversations. And this might be an alternative that works better given the circumstances or the individual on the other side. And oftentimes these conversations are thrust upon us. We get these texts. It's like, oh, well, I guess we're having this.

Right. And I think as you mentioned when we were chatting, but you know, before we started recording, if we think about our conversations, I mean, how many of them take place either via text or over email? Like, for example, I use my phone all the time, but I rarely use it to make phone calls. I'm either sending texts or looking at email or looking up something online. Right. So I mean, I mean, that's a great point that you mentioned. Whether we intend to have difficult conversations in the online environment, the digital environment, or not, chances are we will end up encountering one. So I agree with you. It's great to just sort of be aware of certain tips and techniques that might help you.

Right. And you know, there was one thing. I was reading a book by Sean Achor, the Happiness Advantage and Before Happiness, really interesting books. And so with every relationship, there is a ratio that you have to keep in mind for positivity. And so for general people, it's three to one, positive interactions versus negative. And for romantic relationship, it's five to one. And so what I found in difficult conversations via text, when I do not feel like being loving or kind, I could send the text message while at the same time frowning, saying, I appreciate you.

That's true.

So it's easier to do the right thing because they can't hear your tone. You can say something nice even if you're not feeling it.

More examples of self editing, Right?

Exactly, exactly. Well, perfect. Thank you so much for this. This.

No problem. Yeah, this is always great fun. I'm always, I'm always happy when we have an opportunity to have one of these conversations. Because I think, like I said last time, these are just conversations that we have anyways.

Exactly. Fantastic. Well, thank you again. We appreciate it and we are looking forward to the next time you come on the show.

All right, Sounds great.

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