The Art of Empathy and Self-Awareness in the Workplace: Insights from Jenn Whitmer

You're not at home, you know, like switching on Netflix or doing the laundry while you're at work. I mean, you're a whole person and wherever you go, there you are. And you can't deny that person. And the rest of our lives impacts the way we work. And that part of empathy, we don't like that because it feels inefficient or we're not supposed to bring that into the workplace.

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I'm so happy to be here. I love talking with you.

Yes, likewise. Likewise. So thanks for coming back. For those listeners who didn't listen to our first episode, can you remind them about who you are and what you do?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Jen Whitmer. Nice to meet you all who are listening. I'm a speaker and a consultant. I am a mom of four, I married my high school sweetheart and I work with organizations and leaders team to really help them create positive culture with all the complex people that you work with, including yourself.

I like it. And listeners Jen is amazing. We vibe, as you can tell, and make sure you check out her podcast and follow her on LinkedIn. And here's the thing, Jen, when you say complex people, I think everybody has their own definition for complexity. And in the workplace and just in life, we're going to find ourselves having to deal with different people. And so with the title of this episode, how to Connect with Complex People, I think it would be cool to break down the definitions for each of those key terms. So let's start off with connection. So what is your definition for connection?

So there's the Webster's definition of connection, but because connection is one of my core values, I have created my own definition of that so it can become part of my working operating system. And so for me, connection is the energy that happens between people when people feel seen, heard, and valued. And it's the joining of ideas and the joining of people for the benefit of all. That's how I view connection. So it's both people to people, people to ideas, and creating something that is really greater than just one person that really benefits everybody.

Oh, so when super villains become friends, it's not connection?

Well, that would be a negative connection. I guess it's the energy. But I, as a deep idealist and optimistic, like Fatal Optimist, will say we want it to be for the benefit of everybody.

Oh, exactly. And I agree. Listen, no supervillains listen to negotiate anything. So you are good. But I really love this definition, Jen, because it's so in depth, and I think it captures the parts of the term in a way that's more holistic than most, because we talk about the energy. So there's the connection, just energy between people. But I love the value value, too. So we're not just coming together just for the sake of coming together. There's a purpose behind that so we can come together. And there's a bit of a synergy that happens where we create something that's greater than the individual parts.

Absolutely. And I think every single human, I think it is hardwired into who we are to want to connect with others. We weren't designed to live alone, even the most like people. There's people out there, people like. I don't know if I want to go out there, because it's kind of people, even those people have some kind of desire to connect with someone. So it doesn't necessarily mean you connect with everybody on the same level. We have different levels of connection, but we all deeply desire to be connected to others and connected to a purpose. And something that is beneficial in the world, I think that is deeply within all of us until it gets possibly beaten out of us a little bit or a little bit of pessimism comes in. I think if we sit with ourselves for a little bit, we still really want that.

I agree. I agree. And now let's hit that next definition, which is complex. And I think a lot of listeners were saying, hmm, complex. What does that really mean?

When I think about the complexity of people, it is recognizing that humans are more than just brains or robots that get stuff done. We have hearts that are full of emotions. We have brains that are logical and ideas and strategies. And we have bodies that experience the world, that we get things done with. We have these three components. That is who we are as humans. And on top of that, we layer our personalities. And on top of that, we layer how we talk to ourselves. On top of that, we layer what we value. And then we've got the family of origin that we came in with. And then we've got the culture that we grew up in, and some people grew up in multiple cultures. And then we've got the culture of the place that you're living in right now, your workplace, wherever you are. And then you've got, you know what? I woke up and the weather was terrible today. So you can have all of these things that remain consistent. And then you've got change that happens every day. Humans are incredibly layered and dynamic. We change. And that's really the goal. Like, one of the things in my work that is very based in growth mindset is that we should normalize the idea that something can change in your life. We get new information. We might change our position or way of being. I always want it to be for the benefit of you and others. All of that I just said is incredibly complex. It's layered. And it's like. I like to think of it as a. I'm a musician, so I think of it like a symphony. There are so many different components to a symphony. You've got the wind section and the string section. Yay for the violas. And you've got the brass and the percussion and the conductor and the audience. There's so many things happening besides just the notes on a page. It's not straightforward. It's beautiful, but it's not simple.

Right now, when we talk about this, I love that you brought in the growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Can you talk about how that applies as we consider ourselves in tough conversations and how we consider other people as well?

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, when you were on the show, on my show, Joy Osity, we were talking about this a little bit about, like, what's happening inside your own brain when you're in the middle of that tough conversation. So first of all, I have to readily admit I used to be a huge conflict avoider. I was like, I like to moonwalk my way out of those situations and just like, it's fine. It's no big deal. And that put me in a world of hurt and have learned that we really need conflict to move forward. And negotiating anything is actually how we live our life. Which is why I love your podcast of how to negotiate literally anything. So when you're in the middle of a hard conversation, that complexity is, first of all recognizing, well, what do I think about this? How do I feel about it? What do I want to do? That internal dialogue that you're having with yourself first and then recognizing the other person is doing the same thing. What do they feel? What do they think? What do they want out of it? And ideally also recognizing, am I hungry? Am I tired? Do I need. I mean, like, the physical needs, because ain't nobody want to gonna have a conversation when you're hangry. We're not doing that. And like, this is a bad plan. Even just last night, my husband and I were having this conversation. He asked me an additional question that was gonna be a little challenging, and I said, it's like 9:15 for us. My husband is like a 9:00 clock shut off kind of guy. I could stay up till midnight, but he's not. And so I said, do you want to talk about that right now? And he paused. He's like, I don't think that I do. I'm like, okay, great, then you can decide tomorrow when you want to continue this. And it wasn't an intense conversation, but if we would have continued, I can guarantee you it would have been because he was tired. So recognizing all of those different, your environment, how your physical body is happening in addition to your internal, what do I want out of this? What is the goal? How do I feel about it? What do I want to do? You know, what do we need to get done? How can we make this better together? All of those things are ways to start thinking about how you show up in that hard conversation.

I love that. I love that. And especially the fact that you, you brought in your relationship with your husband there too. Because I would be remiss if I did not say that everything that we talk about in this podcast, yes, you should apply it to work and becoming a good professional. But you can also use this to become a better person, a better partner, and have better relationships in all aspects of your life. So an important tie in.

Yeah, well, I mean, I've done it at work too. That was just the most fresh example because not all that long ago did we plow into a conversation at 9:15 at night that did not go so well. So I'm not saying it's always, but back to that fixed growth mindset. I learned something. I don't want to repeat that I want it to be better. So I learned to ask a different question because of that previous not so awesome experience at 9:15 at night.

Yes. No, this is good. And now this gives us an opportunity to talk about the challenges of having conversations with complex people. Because before we talk about what it is that we actually need to do in order to connect with the complex people in our lives, we need to understand those barriers to connection so we can overcome them. So when it comes to the barriers, what are the first things that come to mind?

I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is our own lack of self awareness. It is incredibly easy for us as humans because our brain is always trying to keep us safe, for us to just believe everything about our experience as the absolute truth. We center ourselves and we're like, this is what's real. So I started working and consulting for a new agency one time and all of a sudden things just kept getting put on my calendar when I had other appointments. And I was like, I don't understand. Like, it was so confusing to me. That was just normal for them. So they didn't think about it. It was just normal. They had centered that particular cultural, you know, artifact or way of doing their process. And it was really challenging for me because I felt incredibly disrespected. I'm like, I have blocked off this time on my calendar. Why are you putting it on there? And because it wasn't necessarily an invitation, you know, so like. But we haven't had a conversation about, you know, like, there were all these things that came up because I had centered my own experience of. I get asked. And they had centered their own experience of this is how we do it. And so your own personal self awareness can be the first block is because we just think that's just our normal. So developing the self awareness, I think is the key to moving on from that block. And there's. We could talk forever about how you do that, but I think just your own Lack of self awareness is the first one. And I think the other thing is and this gets this word gets thrown around a lot but I think it's incredibly value is lack of empathy because when you center yourself and you don't believe someone else's experience, you are not going to have a great connection because you're right off the bat disbelieving their experience. So if someone tells you this is their experience and you're like well that's not true. And we don't approach it with not even empathy curiosity like oh that could that even be? When we do that then we have this other ability to connect. But when we just are like denying that other people can experience that for a host of different reasons we do that. But that lack of empathy and curiosity around other people's experience I think is a huge block to the connection of others because and I think that happens sometimes because we feel as if we're not going to win. Like if I believe them, then am I not going to get my way? We base out of fear and I think sometimes it's so shocking to us that other people that has really happened in the world and we're also trying to protect ourselves from some pain because there's a sacrifice to sit with some empathy with somebody else and oh, I don't know if I want to experience that pain can keep us pushed away from other people. So I think that lack of empathy is the other big thing that comes to mind.

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And so funny. Go ahead. No, go ahead, say I, I like to quote Tasha Erwick. She is a organizational psychologist and she's kind of the one of the top people. Like she only talks about self awareness and you know, she has all these great things that happen when you have self awareness besides connecting with people. You tend to run a more profitable company. You move up in your career, your team is better. We were like, yes, I'm self aware. I get those things. And then she comes in and it's like, except only about 10% of people have accurate self awareness. And then you're like, oh, am I one of the 10%? I don't know. So I feel like self awareness is always something that we're growing in. Back to that idea that we change over time. You know, it's something we're all working on all the time.

Absolutely. And when it comes to communication skills in general, but especially when we're talking about things like self awareness and empathy, we have to recognize that there is no such thing as perfection here. We're all going to be constantly growing. So whoever you are listening, whether you're in that 10% or not, there is still room to grow with that self awareness. And part of, of the thing that ties self awareness and empathy together for me is the necessity of humility. Because sometimes when you're self aware, you have to say to yourself, man, I don't have it right now. Like, now is not the day. We need to bench myself to make sure I don't make any more mistakes. I'm not in a cognitive position where I'm okay right now. And I've, I've canceled major negotiations simply because I'm like, hey, Dominic, had a rough night last night. I didn't get enough sleep. I'm not at my best. Let's reschedule it and I'll tell them. Exactly. I'll say it just like like that. And they're like, oh, we understand. Well, thank you for letting us know. I think self awareness helps us to understand, really, our own internal weather conditions. It's kind of like, I can't just go out here and drive with supreme confidence if it's icy and snowy. It's not an indictment on my driving skills, but it would be an indictment on my self awareness and.

And wisdom.

Wisdom to drive with supreme confidence in those conditions. And then when you think about empathy, I think you made a really great point thinking about it as a concession, because it feels like a concession in the moment. I think we have to be honest with the audience and let people know this does not feel good. So just how you were having your 9:15 conversation with your husband. I was having a 9:15 conversation with my wife, and I was listening to her empathetically, and it felt like somebody was stabbing me in the eyeball. It was like the hardest thing in the world to do. And I think we have to just acknowledge that because a lot of times we feel that resistance in ourselves, like, oh, this is not good. And we have to recognize that, acknowledge it, and recognize that, yes, I do feel this way, and I still need to do the right thing. Listen, empathize, and be respectful.

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought up, because I have. There are certain personalities in the personality framework that I work with called the Enneagram. There's three personalities that really struggle with that. And you and I, I think, are in the. I know I'm in that group. I don't know your type, but I'm guessing you are, based on that sentence that it's like, it feels. Feels so challenging because one, I have to experience the pain, or it feels super inefficient, like it's just like. Or it feels incredibly vulnerable. And it's like, oh, my gosh. Where there are other personality types that are like, what do you mean? I love empathy. I could sit there for forever. That's part of the complexity. Everybody is different in how they approach that. And some of us have to learn way more empathy, and some of us have to learn how to speak directly. Everybody's got something we're working on.

Yep. And going back to self awareness, Jen, what's really funny is that I can be very empathetic in the business world and everything like that. And I recognize that the closer I get with the relationship, the harder it is for me to manage my emotions and just stay calm. And in that conversation, I did the right things, but it was Painful. And we also have to recognize timing too. Self awareness can help us to recognize, oh, I'm experiencing a little bit of ego depletion, a little bit of decision fatigue. It's late at night. I got up at 4:45 this morning. I'm tired, I'm not good right now. But it's going to take a little bit more effort in this moment to be in that space to actually listen and empathize effectively.

I think the other thing that you said that's so key that I am really always trying to bring out is that you recognized that your whole life impacts your work. Because we're not like this human that gets to be something different in the workspace. I think some of us who work at home, that's a little easier to see. But some people like, I left it at home, I locked the door, I opened the office and here I am. But you don't. That's not actually how it works. You're not at home, you know, like switching on Netflix or doing the laundry while you're at work. I mean, you're a whole person and wherever you go, there you are. And you can't deny that person. And the rest of our lives impacts the way we work. And that part of empathy, we don't like that because it feels inefficient or we're not supposed to bring that into the workplace. Except every time I'm working with people when they get to bring their whole self in, their work is better. You have the self awareness to recognize my work's not going to be good if we move forward with this. And being able to allow people to bring their whole self in actually brings you better, more engaged workers. Not only do they feel seen and honored and respected, but you get what you want at the end, which is better work. And that's, I think, another thing that was so powerful about your own self awareness to say, listen, I'm not going to be as amazing as you need me to be if we do this right now and more often than not we actually have that flexibility.

Absolutely. Oh, this is good. And now the listeners are saying, well, okay, now we understand the complexity. Now what do we actually do? So now where do we start when it comes to connecting with complex people?

So I'm gonna go back to yourself, like, we always need to start with ourselves. And so if you think about like Velcro or a magnet, you need to know which side you are to connect with other people. Am I the fuzzy side? Am I the loopy side? Who am I In this, because you have to know where you are in order to connect with others. When I do keynotes and workshops, one of my favorite things to do is I make everybody stand up. So if you're in a place right now and you're listening to this podcast, you can follow along. If you're driving, please don't do this. But if you stand up and close your eyes, and then you turn around in a circle and you keep your eyes closed and try to sit back down, the first thing you do is either open your eyes or you reach for the chair. You reach for something because we need to know, where am I in space? In order to connect with this chair, I have to know where I am and who I am. And to connect with others, you have to have some awareness of yourself. And that's your personality, the way you think about things, your values, all of that. And then I think the next skill, those engagement skills, are really around bringing curiosity in to other places. Recognizing what are my emotions, what are their emotions, how am I communicating with them? Those are the things that we start really connecting with other people. And that curiosity space is actually the best place to start because depending on who you're working with, that's where the complexity is. I don't know if you're working with somebody who's really quiet or who never stops talking. You know, my problem is always never stop talking. I'm aware of that. I'm working on it. When you're curious about somebody, you're curious about the idea that presenting or, you know, we were kind of joking even before this. Love any idea for five minutes. If you just think, I'm just gonna, like, pretend I'm with them for five minutes and start to be curious about their. You start to connect. You see where they're from. Asking question about where they are and why they think that. Some of my favorite ways to get curious with another person, to connect with them, when they say something that's interesting, I'm like, ooh, tell me more about that. People will tell you more. Can you tell me more about that? And just wait. So here is my, like, super practical hot tip. When you ask a question, wait for the answer. I know that sounds so simple, but here's what happens. I've seen it so many times in networking events, in meetings. Like somebody who's like, okay, anybody got any questions? Okay, awesome. And then they. You just move on. The literal physicality of sound, they hasn't come to their ear, processed in their brain enough to then have a question. Let Alone the vulnerability of asking a question, even if you've made a great space. So if you ask a question of someone, especially in a group, in a group setting and you want to connect with people, wait, I literally count to 10 in my own head because again, I'm an interrupter, I know I talk too much, but it's really powerful because if you actually ask a question and then you wait for the answer, people are like, oh, you actually want to hear. And that starts to bring connection. So that space of curiosity, asking great questions and actually waiting for the answer.

I love that last point. I love that last point. And you know what's so interesting about this too, Jen, is that the tools that you're giving us right now are very simple. But there's a very big difference between simple and easy, right?

A hundred percent.

Because really what you've given us here, when we say start with ourselves, where are you? I love that orientation because we could all see very quickly, if you don't know where you are and you try to sit back down, the chair is not there, right? So you need to really clearly know where you are in space. And you need to know where the chair is as well. And people are probably saying this is so basic. But here's the thing, Jen, people don't know these things. We have people falling on the floor and then blaming the chair all the time, you know, because they just don't take the time to figure this out. I like the analogy of ready, aim, fire. I think people just have fire, ready, aim. They're just shooting shots and don't understand why they're missing. But they blame the target for not being where they shot it. And we need to just take the time. And the thing is, if you just take the time to be self aware, to understand yourself and take the time to listen empathetically for and to understand the other side and then understand the context that's at play, which will take time and effort. You don't really even need high level tactics or negotiation skills. You just can communicate effectively. But being actually on target.

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think one of the things that is the roadblock to that, what I, I perceive and hear a lot is we don't have that kind of time. My response to that is often you don't not have that time. Like you're going to waste so much time. It is that, that's the sunk cost analogy. You're just going to keep throwing good money after bad when you don't take the time because you think it's going to take so much time and we're so time conscious because it really is the one truly limited resource. So I get it. I love things to be efficient. I want to make things go fast, but it doesn't usually take as much time as we perceive. It actually takes that humility that we're not sure that we want to give. We blame time, but it's actually humility. Because really one of the processes I, you know, frameworks I teach is called snap. So stop, notice, ask, pivot. So if you stop, you notice what's happening around you ask yourself, what am I believing right now? Is it true? What could happen if I believed a different story and then pivot based on that new story? That whole process could probably take you a minute and a half and you would get through it real, real fast. I mean, it's 90 seconds, but it's scary and we don't necessarily want to do it. I think that's the biggest resistance I often hear when we talk about taking the time to get curious and spend the self awareness time. Because that framework is real fast. It's foundational. I like to call them foundational over basic because sometimes we poo poo basic. But really basic is they're basics for a reason. You know, I am a huge Royals fan at heart. I grew up in Kansas City. So George Brett had a big poster on my wall as a kid. I am pretty positive George Brett knew how to, you know, swing a bat real well because he did the basics where his foot went simple where you know how he swung basic. But that's what made him amazing. And so our basics are foundational to actually amazing practice.

Exactly. And the fundamentals never go out of style. They always work. You just have to figure out how they apply. And what I find is that people often don't have the patience with the fundamentals to apply them long enough for them to work. And going back to that feeling of time, I remember one time there was this, this task that I had to do just a little like an admin task here at A. And I. And I was putting it off for days and then weeks. I'm like, I don't have the time, I don't have the time.

And then I was like, now it's fine.

Yeah. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this thing. And I actually timed it. It took me three minutes to do. And so I learned something. There is difference between the objective nature of time and the subjective feeling of time. And so when people saying that they don't have time. What they're really saying is that it feels like I don't have time because I have added a substantial amount of emotional weight to this activity.

Yep, totally. I've done that with my own kids. About the dishwasher, I was like, I want you to put your phone away because all of my children, you know, as teenagers, have phones. And I want you to put your phone away and set the timer on the microwave and see how long it takes you to actually unload the dishwasher. Because I can guarantee you, you have spent more time whining and trying to negotiate out of this than actually just doing that job. And I know that because I have done it myself. Like, I'm real honest with them. Like, I know because I too, want to avoid doing this work or I want to avoid doing the bookkeeping or I want to avoid sending the email. That feels like it's going to be a little challenging, but if I actually just commit to doing it, that I feel better at the end. So, like, we put so much emotional weight, as you said, into that perceived amount of time when it's really something different. It's going to take three minutes.

Absolutely.

I feel so seen.

Well, I know we're at 30 minutes. Ish. And I want to end while you are feeling seen as well. So this is good.

It's fine. It's fine. It's okay.

So, Jen, this has been a joy, as always, my friend. So thank you again for coming on the show. And before you go, let the listeners know about your speaking, your workshops, and how they can get in touch.

Yeah, absolutely. So I really love doing keynotes and working within organizations to help you over time, really create that positive culture. Culture. I've got a couple really great keynotes right now around intergenerational communication to really connect at work. And that's been really fun to do this past year. And then really why joy at work matters, along with conflict resolution and other things like that. But if we're going to start with yourself, I think I would love to challenge you. I have a little quiz called the Joyosity Leadership Quiz. So it's Jen Whitmer.com joyocityleadershipquiz joyocity is spelled with an S like joy and curiosity. We'll put it in the show notes, I'm sure. But that is a great place to start with self awareness and just understanding how you approach leadership. So that's my challenge to you. I would love to connect with LinkedIn. Instagram is. I always call LinkedIn the business up front and Instagram's the party in the back. So if you've learned something today, you had a little nugget. I love hearing those. But the former educator in me also knows when you say those things out loud, you tend to to stick with you longer. So that's my also encouragement to you is just tell us what you learned. Tell Kwame what you learned. Tell me what you learned because it will actually go further in your life when you do so. Jen whitmer.com, find me on LinkedIn, Instagram. Those are the things.

Jen, a masterclass. As always my friend, thanks so much for joining us. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to go get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.