The Benefits of a Correct Mindset in Difficult Conversations with Dr. Carol Parker Walsh, JD, PhD.

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Carol, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Yeah, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I run a strategic advising executive coaching firm where I coach midlife women or high executive high achieving women at midlife who are looking to make that transition. I often say they climb the ladder of success only to realize they've climbed the wrong one. And now that they're at the top of the ladder, they're wondering, okay, is this really it? And they want to really step into something that's more meaningful and more fulfilling and creates a greater impact in the world. And I also work with other organizations as well to help them tap into their potential through innovation and growth by really looking at their inclusive leadership, creating psychological safety and trust in organizations to make sure that they are continuing to grow and develop by really maximizing the potential that they have in their organizations.

This is great. Yeah, this is incredibly important work. And listeners, we, we were chatting before the, the podcast began and we had an idea of talking about severance, negotiating severance. And then we got on another topic and I was like, you know what, let's do this other topic because I think we, we both, our passion is going in that direction today. So today we are going to talk about mindset. We're going to talk about mindset because in my first book, one of the things I said is it doesn't make sense to give recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen and when it comes to this negotiation space, if you want to learn how to negotiate, I mean, Google's a thing. You could look up all the tactics and strategies you want. You can learn, you can learn it pretty easily. But the difference between learning and knowing what to do and actually doing it, that's a whole different beast. And so that's what we're going to talk about today, the mindset. Carol, how about you just set the stage? When we talk about mindset in these difficult conversations or just in general, what does that mean to you?

For me, it means having the mental confidence and courage to be able to step into brave conversations in a very meaningful and impactful way for yourself. I always tell the clients that I work with that these type of things just as you beautifully articulate. It's an inner and outer game thing, right? So the outer game are all the tactics and the strategies. And oftentimes because we're so action focused in our society, people are always wanting the tips and tell me what to do next. But the other piece of it that I always say is the inner game strategy. And if your inner game is not where it needs to be, it is not going to at all make a difference. What you get from the outer game tactics. Right? And from that, I mean that you have overcome your imposter syndrome issues that you are not shrinking down because you don't believe that you should have or that, that you don't deserve or that these internalized societal messages along the lines of gender or race that are impeding you from being able to see your worth and value and be able to step boldly into spaces and places and conversations to be able to get what, you know, you deserve and what you're absolutely worth. And so for me, that's the huge thing about mindset. Like if that game is not really worked on. And let me just, let me just say this, this is an ongoing process, right? Everyone has some stuff. So the key though, the people who are ahead of the game are the ones who are consistently working their stuff. A, they recognize it, they're gaining deeper awarenesses around it. They're seeing like what's behind the corner of certain thoughts and belief systems or narratives that we've held onto. And they're doing the work of unpacking, unraveling and rebuilding something that gives them that strength, courage and bravery to get what they want. You know, including negotiating. Right. You know, statistically, for example, women, which is a population I work very strongly with, a lot of people, newbies don't negotiate. I was Just for example, I was working with my son the other day for a new position that he was going after, and he's new, his first position coming out of college, and. And I coached him on negotiating, and he was like, but, mom, they're offering me a job. I can't say no. Right. That's the idea that we have those. Like, we can't say no. But, you know, as May Angelou said, when you know better, you do better. So I worked with him, got him a $6,000 bump, got him an extra week of vacation, because why not? Why not ask for what you know you need as opposed to accept? But if you don't believe it, then nobody else will believe it, and you won't engage and use those tips and strategies to their highest advantage. If you don't have that inner game locked in.

Oh, my goodness, that was so good. And now I. Like, before I even respond to that brilliance that you just laid out there, I have to make sure that the listeners know you have a podcast. So this is not the only time you'll get access. Carol, can you give a quick shout out to your podcast before we jump back in? Because I realize we missed that.

Yes. So my podcast is called the Midlife Career Rebel, and it actually was named one of Max List Top 200 Career Podcasts to Listen to in 2022, which I'm really proud of. And it is about. There's a lot of these kind of conversations on that podcast. It's a lot of, you know, we do give the tips and strategies, but it's a lot of that inner game and overcoming some of the soc conditioning that has made us believe certain things that are no longer true so that we can kind of unleash, unpack, and go after the things that we want.

Love it.

Yeah.

I had to make sure that we got a shout out there because I was. As you were talking, I felt like I was listening to a podcast. I was like, that's right. She has one. So we need to make sure that everybody knows so everybody details for the podcast, Carol's programs, and her website. Everything will be in the description. And I just want to highlight some of these words that you said in your response. When we were talking about mindset, we had confidence, courage, imposter syndrome, shrink, internalized and going boldly and recognizing that, like you said, everyone has their stuff. And in this episode, what we're going to do is we're going to help you get your stuff together, as they say.

Yes.

Right. This is great. There's so Many different places to start. But when we think about confidence and courage, why was that where you started with that response?

We need to understand like these definitions and what they mean. And you know, let me just say this before I start speaking, just so people know, like I know what I'm talking about. I like to give, I like to give some street cred a little bit here, right? So so much like Kwame, I've been a labor and employment attorney for a lot of years, but I also have a doctorate degree in human development that focused around identity and structural inequity. And so in looking at the development of how we become who we are across the lifespan, but looking at it through the lens of all of the isms that surround us, and by isms, it's not just racism is not the only ism, right? There's ableism, there's ageism is so many things that can impact our ability to show up powerfully that come through us in the world. So I just give you that little nugget and this is where a lot of this is coming from. From my research, years of research and doing this work. But the reason I started with confidence is because we need to differentiate between confidence and self confidence. And from my perspective, confidence is a belief in things that you've already done. We get confidence because we can look back and say, oh, I've done that and so this is what I can do. And in many ways it's limiting because if we haven't done something, we don't feel confident in it. Right, because we've never done it before. So it's a past focus construct. But self confidence is the belief in your own innate abilities and genius and talent that it allows you to step into things, into the possibility of what's to come. So you carry it into the future doing things that you've never done before with the full belief that, hey, it's possible, like, I don't know, it may work, it may not work. But listen, I have enough self belief and self confidence that I can step into, for example, negotiating and know that it's going to turn out okay because I have that self belief, not just because I've done it in the past, I may have never done it in the past, but that's not going to stop me and limit me from what's possible to step into my future. So that's why I started with that. Because to me, those are two different concepts and we don't understand them deeply enough to really tap in and develop the one that I think is most important, which is self confidence.

Listeners, if you heard this and you said, wow, I never stopped and thought about the difference between confidence and self confidence. I want you to know, as somebody who has written a book called Finding Confidence in Conflict, I too did not know the difference between these two concepts. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. And it's so helpful. It's extremely helpful because now we're recognizing that we need to have both forms of confidence. But if we don't really even understand the distinction between the two forms of confidence, then we might try to solve for the wrong problem.

Problem, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And building that self belief is something that carries you with you forever. I mean, having confidence in what you've done in the past is important because it gives you like a step ladder, like a bridge to step across. Like it carries you through to some level. We can tap into things we've done to the past and maybe believe, well, I didn't do that exact thing, but I did something similar. And we can use that as kind of the foundation to lift us up. But the rest of it has to really come from this internal sense of belief and strength and, you know, trust within yourself in order to go after things that you've never done before. Listen, think about going after things or doing things you've never done before. Like again in the concept we're talking about, maybe even negotiating or whatever it may be, even if you've never done it before, it's not about, oh, will I be successful? And that's the thing that people really need to consider. It's do I have basically the chutzpah to try? Right? Because it's through those trials that we gain that knowledge that gives us the confidence to step back up and try it again. And so it's not about whether or not I'm successful in the effort. It's about that I took the risk and trust myself enough to go in that direction and then learn from the process so that I can become even more confident moving on before, you know, moving on in the future.

Absolutely. And listeners, what you're going to recognize here is that you cannot be a successful negotiator if you don't have this part, then you're not going to take that step. I mean, when we think about how somebody communicates, when they're confident, they sound different. You could take the exact same words and phrases and sentences, whatever it happens to be, but you say, say it one time with confidence, one time without confidence. It's a completely different sentence. Completely different. As a negotiator, for me, when I hear somebody say an offer, when they say, I say, how much would this be? It'll be $100,000. I think to myself, the price is $100,000. If I ask somebody, hey, how much would this be? They're like, it'll be $100,000. I'm like, not for me. Absolutely not. You think I didn't hear that right? And so we have to that a significant portion of our efficacy is going to come solely from our confidence level. And so, Carol, when you think about what holds us back from gaining that confidence, what are the things that come to mind?

Such a, such a great question. And I love the example you gave. I just want to highlight that because it is so subtle, like what you said. And people don't realize that. And so they think they're sounding confident, but don't realize that it's not there. And they're like, but I said the words. But it is so subtle. And it comes through to that energy in such a powerful way. But to answer your question, I am a big believer in understanding context because through my studies, we don't operate in a vacuum. We operate in this huge social construct. I am the one that is considering what is the environment that I'm in that is either propelling me to feel more confident or to go after that sense of self confidence or holding me back from it. When we look at societal history, when we look at the legacy culture around, you know, we are in a very patriarchal society. I mean, it was designed, you know, by men, for men. So when it comes to women in particular, they get kind of left back and left out. You know, whether. And when you come from race, it's get. You get left back or left out. Or as I said before, if you look at any of the levels of the majority of a Population ableism, right? We have a society that's geared toward people who can walk and who can, you know, talk and have mental acuity. Right. When we talk about even, you know, religious things, when we talk about weight, there's so many things that people don't realize that could be potential barriers to our ability to show up. Because if the society has, like, leveled who is on the oppressor side and who is on the oppressed side. And let me just say there's an author, Patricia Hill Collins, who I love, who talked about the matrix of oppression. And she said that there are no pure victims of the matrix, that at any point in time we can find ourselves on the side of the oppressor or the oppressed. And these are some of the things like if you are somebody who doesn't suffer from a neural disability or any other kind of disability, you are getting the beneficiary of a society that is geared toward your ability to be able to move and function in the world without any kind of limitations. So I'm using that as an example to show that it comes in a lot of different varieties, right? It comes with age. You know, the society is very geared toward my younger brothers and sisters in the world and not geared for a lot of us who are 50 and over. And so there's a. A lot of narratives that we have to be conscious of that have come from these societal messages that we have to learn to let go of, to deconstruct, to kind of break the chains from. So narratives around, for example, when it comes to negotiation that women don't negotiate, that women don't know about money, that, you know, we're afraid to ask because we have been conditioned not to. We've been conditioned to be polite and to say thank you and to be grateful and that we're seen as aggressive, ungrateful, or, you know, problematic. If we were to say, no, $100,000 is not enough for me, I'm looking for 150 to 2, and that somehow or other that's a horrible thing for us to say that. But we have to look at the conditioning and the narratives that we have indoctrinated and internalized over the years based upon the society in which we live, that impede us from having that level of confidence, from really seeing that's a lot of where it's coming from. Now, as I say that, it doesn't mean we have to be victimized by it. Right? So as I said earlier, Maya Angelou said, when you know better, you do better. So when you gain the awareness that these kind of things may be internalized and happening at a very unconscious level, when we can bring it to the consciousness, we could do something about it, we could begin to notice it and then change that narrative, deconstruct that narrative, you know, kind of break those chains. You know, I was joking earlier with Kwame saying, I feel like, you know, I'm Morpheus or Neo out here trying to free people from the Matrix. I'm trying to free these, these minds, these ideologies that we think we're trapped in, when we absolutely can break free from them and create our own path and create our own narratives that are much more useful for us to get what we want in our life and careers.

This is so powerful. And I think one of the things to make sure that we understand here is that what we're doing in this episode, we're not blaming anybody. We're still realities here. This is really important and to recognize just the way that society will have an impact on us and it affects us differently. And a lot of times it's completely unintentional. So here's a little simple example. It's like we have two ovens at our house. There's one on the lower level, one on the upper level. I am 6:1. I always use the upper level. Whitney is 5:3. She always uses the lower level. When she uses the lower level, I literally can't see what's in there. When I use the upper level, same thing. So am I trying to be sexist? Is he trying to be sexist? No, this is just the reality. But I'm blind to it because it makes sense to use the oven that is eye level. But I'm unaware of the impact it could be having on other people. But now when we think about different ideas, identities, right? If I'm a first generation college student and I get a six figure salary when everybody else in my family was making minimum wage, for example, then you get a six figure offer. Then you're like, I would be ungrateful to say no. I would be greedy to ask for more. I'm making four times more than anybody else in my family.

Right?

That's a mental barrier that can hold us back. Let's think about diversity, equity and inclusion. So there are a lot of white males that I talk to who say they want to contribute you. They have things to say, but they're afraid. I don't feel like I have a place to say anything. That's a mental barrier that can hold you back and so we have to think about the various ways that society and the way we've been raised and everything will just have a massive impact on the way that we interact with the world and navigate it.

Absolutely. That was beautifully said. And that's what I was talking about that we have to understand context. Right. Context is important. We're just not operating just individually out here in the world. We're operating within, within a social construct that we just want to be aware of. And that's perfectly said. And it comes in a variety of ways in a variety of places. Right. As you know, using that terminology, there's no victimizations, nobody is exempt from it, we're all a part of it. And so we're just trying to figure out what part we're playing and get aware of that so that we can be better and do better.

Yeah, so this is great. So we're at a point where we understand the distinction between confidence and self confidence. Now we're increasing, increasing our awareness, recognizing how context has an impact on the way we see ourselves, the way we see the world and how we navigate it and how the world navigates us and impacts us as well.

Absolutely.

Now that we have this understanding, how do we actually take that step to improve our confidence and give us the mindset we need for success?

It sounds very simple in terms of the work that's required. And again, it's because we live in a society that's very action oriented. It's like, what do I do? And while these are steps to do, it requires a lot of reflection and an opportunity to kind of sit down and get clear about what that narrative is. So sitting down, being reflective, answering some questions, getting deeper awareness of where things are coming from. If I think that, well, I can't go to the top oven, I have to use the bottom oven.

Right.

Why am I thinking that? Like, why am I absorbing that as a truth? Why can't I get a stepladder and use the upper you oven if I want to? Right. You know, so, so we don't think of the solutions to things because we're so trapped in this belief that this is the only thing that I can do and the only thing that's available to me. So for me, one of the big things that you can do is start just unloading what your mindsets are, what your beliefs are, what your thoughts are. Oftentimes when we put them down on a sheet of paper and get them out of our brains. Right. Because a lot of this stuff is developed through the emotional primitive part of our brain, that. That part that doesn't have any logic and is just running off full adrenaline and emotion, and it's not really coming into the prefrontal cortex, the logic part of our brain that actually can make sense of things. So when we can put things on paper, we bring all of this emotional baggage and illogical things onto paper, and then the prefrontal cortex can kick in and look at it and say, wait a minute. Why do I think that's true? Why am I believing that? I can't believe I thought that. That's ridiculous. Like, where is this coming from? So just getting it on paper and doing some sense of analysis and evaluation on what's in front of you will actually give you greater awareness through the prefrontal cortex, the part that can actually absorb this and, like, give you some logical and intelligent feedback for you to then to begin to see, where is this coming up? What situations did this arise? Why? Where have I seen this to be true in my life? Where is coming from? So that I can begin to take different actions in the future. I can begin to start thinking, maybe, maybe I don't have to choose this way of thinking, and I could create a new way of thinking that will generate a new set of actions and results ultimately, for you.

This is good. So I have. I have two points here. First point is when you think about the taking the time to spend with yourself in reflection, there is one. One. There's. There's a big reason why people don't like to do this. Besides the time. The fact that it takes a lot of time, besides the fact that introspection is difficult and everything like that. I know when I've taken the time to do it. I found that the beliefs that I have were objectively stupid. Like, not. And I'm not. I'm not using that term, like, in a. Like, a pejorative, judgmental way. I'm saying, like, if I look at this, like, as a scientist or an irrational thinker, like, it is objectively dumb. I'll give an example that is. That is tangential to difficult conversations. It comes up. It has come up for me, but I was. There was a barrier. So for me, with parenting, like, when I was actually writing out some of the challenges that I had with. It's going to sound so silly. One of the challenges that I had, like, why is it so hard for me to, like, fully lean into it? And one of the things that I realized was that I didn't. I did not think parenting was cool. I thought that once you had a kid, it made you boring. And I remember when I finally realized that, and I told Whitney, Whitney's like, man, Kwame, that's really dumb. I was like, I know it's really stupid, but I'm glad that I was able to, like, write that out. I was like, wait a. I can still be me. I can still have fun. This isn't a threat to my identity. Which leads me to that second part. Because a lot of times we've spent so much time with these beliefs that we can't separate the belief from who we are. And so it feels like a threat to who we are to let go of that. Can I still be Kwame Christian without that belief? I've believed that for a long time. Subconsciously, it was a deep part of me. Can I still be me? And I think that transition is really, really difficult for people to make.

So sometimes, yeah. That is such a beautiful example. And the thing that I want to say to that, there's two things. One is when you're doing this work, and I love that you just put it on paper and looked at it. And I love that you laughed about it. Like, what's this? Right? And I know sometimes looking at it can be challenging. I think another reason people don't want to do is because they're afraid of what they may find out. Like, they're afraid of their thinking. They're afraid of those beliefs. They're afraid even of taking responsibility, that they even held those beliefs and that it has held them back. Right? So the first thing I want to say about this is that it is imperative that you suspend judgment. Right? That you just look at them because they are not who you are. Your beliefs are conditionings that you've inherited that you've held onto, but they're not necessarily you, and they don't have to be you. Right? They're just things that you're holding onto in your mind. It doesn't mean that that is necessarily true, and it doesn't define who you are. Now, that's a little bit challenging, I know, for some people to let go of because they're like, but this is what. This has always been a part of my identity, but it doesn't mean that it has to be a continual part of it. The beautiful thing about the lifespan is that it shifts and changes, and we should shift and change with it. So, of course, the things that you believe to 10, I mean, if you look at it from that perspective, you don't believe them at 40, and you're not Beating yourself, thinking, well, I knew who I was at 10, I knew, you know, like, why don't I believe that now? Right? But we do the same things when we uncover things in our 40s or our 50s, and we think somehow it has to mean something and it doesn't. Just like the beliefs we had at 5 or 8 or 10 or 12 or even 20, we don't hold them today. And so we have to look at it as just an evolution and not as some type of detriment to who we are. It's important for us to not make our thoughts and our beliefs mean something about who we, we are or who we can be. So while you're doing this process, it's imperative, and I know it's hard because it's human nature to try to suspend judgment, to not judge anything that you write or see as right or wrong. It's just what it is. It's just a thought in your brain. When you judge it as right or wrong, then you judge yourself as being right or wrong. Then you judge yourself as having the potential or ability to step into something potentially great. Because now you're holding shame and now you're holding all of these things about you just because there happened to be thoughts in your brain that you're putting on a sheet of paper. So we have to try to create as much neutrality as we can in the process. And honestly, this may take some work. It may even take some coaching. It may even take some therapy, whatever. Your jam is to really to start to separate, that these beliefs don't define who I am. That the beauty of the present and the future is that you get to decide who you want to be today and tomorrow. You are not bound to what you held or believed in your past right now. Sometimes we like to, particularly when you get older people at our age, we tend to look back over our lives, and that's when regret starts coming in. So we start thinking, oh, if I only knew, or if I did or if I had the ability. And then we start making that mean something about who we are today. But looking back and letting that define who we can be in the future, to me that's silly, but that's what we do. That's exactly what we do. The future is unknown. We have no idea what tomorrow is going to be. And the beauty of that is that we have the potential to step into whoever we want to be in the future. If we decide that whatever was holding me back, whatever chains or beliefs that I had yesterday, I'm not going to hold them tomorrow. And that's the process that we work through. That takes time, and it takes a daily practice and commitment. Just like you can't wake up one morning and say, I'm going to lose £50 and put it on a piece of paper. Now they're gone. It doesn't work that way, right? The mind is a muscle like everything else, right? So you have to work it, right? It's a. It's a program that you've. You can. You've programmed your brain to think a certain way for so long. So think of it. Think of it maybe as a set of a muscle, as a computer system, right? You've created a programming that's operating in your brain that you've done year after year after year. And now you're reprogramming. And that reprogramming just takes it. More moment. It takes a moment. I mean, that is. The whole science of neuroplasticity, is that you can change your thoughts, change those narratives and come up with some new ones that you can then follow that'll take you to a different place in the future. The other thing I always tell people to do when they write these thoughts down, because sometimes people struggle with letting go of them. Like, people are like, no, I'm. I'm not a people person, or, no, I've never. I mean, I never been good in these type of situations, or I'm not good at asking for. Like, we hold strongly to some of these beliefs. And I always tell people to ask yourself, how is it serving me to hold on to that belief? What positive is that bringing to my life by me choosing to dig my heels in the ground and hold on to, no, this is not who I am. How is that helping you? And then the next question I ask you is, how? Why are you choosing something that's not benefiting you?

Right?

We think it's not a choice, but it actually is because our thoughts are things that we have control over creating. It's part of a whole cognitive neuroscience, something in which I'm trained in, which is, if this feels like, what is she saying? Just sit with it. Because it's really true. And it's so powerful. When you realize that nothing has control over you, that you have the control because you get to control your thinking, thinking and what you choose to believe, then the world becomes open to you in a way that it never has before. Wow.

Listen. Okay, so listeners, if you are like me, you are saying, okay, how can I get more Carol in my life? And the answer is, number One, the podcast number two, she has a program which I'm going to let her talk about in a second and obviously the website, we're going to link to Everything and her LinkedIn in the description of this episode. But you could, I could talk to you about this forever. So for the sake of the audience, I'm going to use some discipline and, and wrap this up. But before you go, can you let the listeners know about your program, your podcast, and how they can get in touch with you?

Yeah. So I, as I said before, love working with women who are at midlife. I'm, I'm a woman at midlife and I understand that the midlife pivot has some challenges that at different times in our lives don't have just understanding the lifespan and human development. So my program is of kind called Fearless. And it's called that for a reason, because I know that ultimately what we're looking for is to be unapologetically authentic, to be unbounded and not limited by what we can do, and unstoppable and brave, to have the courage to go after what we want. And those are the foundational principles that I work with in that program. And so it's for high achieving, high powerful women who are looking to have more meaning and value in what it is that they do, whether it's within the current industry and role that they have, whether it's pivoting it to something completely new or deciding to go off on another adventure but not be held back by these narratives and limiting beliefs, or imposter syndrome and things of that nature that keeps them from going after what they want. And so the program is designed for that. It's a four month program that we dig in deeply into a lot of the things that we're talking about to really unleash and break you free from that way of thinking, to develop a new narrative to support you and where you want to go again, your future. And so we're actually open now for enrollment. So if you're interested in learning more about the program, definitely go to the website. We have even abbreviated link. It's bit ly, you know, if you know the bit ly thing, backslash, capital cra, small case apply. And if you go there, it gives you all the information about the program. And it's also on my website. If you go to my website, you'll find a link to it as well.

Fantastic. And we will have all of those links in the description. Carol, thank you, thank you, thank you. Really appreciate it, Appreciate it.

This has been amazing. Thank you so much for this conversation.

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