The Grow Method: Unlocking Lasting Change in the Brain with KJ Lavan

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

KJ thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much.

We're excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, sure. So, you know, I am in the business, my company, KJL International, of making it easier for companies to work out how to increase their productivity and innovation through a new science. And it's called neuroscience, which I'll talk about a little bit more in a bit. But for me, the journey has started with the question that is, what does it take in the way we see ourselves, our thoughts, our emotions, and our stories that help us to thrive in an increasingly complex and fraught world? And so that question has been at the center of my life's work. Because how we deal with our inner world drives everything, every aspect of how we love, how we live, how we parent, and how we lead. So the conventional view of emotions as good or bad, positive or negative, that's rigid. And rigidity from what we're experiencing in this world today in the face of complexity is toxic. And so we need greater levels of Mental agility for true resilience, for true thriving and emotional diversity. When I talk about diversity, I'm talking about diversity is not just people, it's also what's inside people, including diversity of emotion. For instance, the most agile, resilient individuals, teams, organizations, families, communities, they're all built on an openness to the normal human emotions. Kwame this is what allows us to ask, what is my emotion telling me which action will bring me toward my values, which will take me away from them? And so my journey began in the messy business of the corporate world. I moved up in an environment of a culture and leadership that was committed to denial. And it's denial that makes past years of self serving policies and practices possible. When people convince themselves they're doing nothing wrong. And if you think about it, denial is exclusion. And yet for me, I first learned of the destructive power of denial at a personal level before I understood what it was doing to corporate culture. I say this, this is a story that again has led me on this path, and that is after losing a very dear friend unexpectedly in the prime of his life, I struggled mentally and emotionally depleted, I began to spiral down, isolated, and I stopped my regular workouts. I began unhealthy eating habits. All of that in the sense of refusing to accept the full weight of my grief. So no one knew. And in an environment that we currently live in, whether it be in the corporate C suite, are in the social settings that we are, there's this relentless value about positivity. And so with that, I thought no one wanted to know. But I'm grateful that my executive vice president, who was my mentor, was mindful. His empathy is what invited me to show up authentically to my grief and my pains. And that invitation allowed me to begin healing the many emotions I was feeling, like most when they go through grief. But like a soccer player, I began moving beyond the rigidity of denial into what I've now come to call mental agility. And so that traumatic experience almost 20 years ago was the start of a revolution that shaped my life's work. My mentor's empathy was a spark for change, I guess you could say. And my courage to act on that was the flame for my mental agility. And this is what has influenced me and inspired me to practice and teach how you can use your mind to change your brain for the better. So my vision and initiatives, they align with the United Nations Global Sustainability Development goals. And that is without addressing brain health illnesses. Our communities and workplaces will continue to increasingly be challenged to maintain Sustainability, economically and socially. That's the journey I'm on.

Wow, that is incredible. Kj, thank you for sharing that. Thank you. And it's inspiring to see just how you were able to, to take that dark time in your life and use it as a catalyst for improving and audience listeners here. This, KJ lives this. When I, when KJ got on the call today, I said, how are you doing today? He said, I'm evolving. And now after, after hearing this background and talking about mental agility, I understand, because we should always be in a constant state of evolution, right? As individuals, as organizations, as communities. So this is really, really, really great. And there's so much to dig into. But let me set the stage first for the listeners out there. So today we're going to talk about negotiating the brain and negotiating real change within ourselves, within others and within organizations. And how the understanding the psychology and the neuroscience behind change, how we can target our message so we can actually create real and lasting change within ourselves, within others and within organizations. And the key word here is lasting because people, anybody can change for a second, right? I mean, we've all experienced that. We've all experienced that. I mean, just, just watch. Hey, kj, watch. I'm going to go on a diet for the next five seconds. Anybody can do that. You can do that, right?

So we're talking about lasting change.

So we have to understand how the way the brain works. You dropped a really important message in passing. So before we even get to our three things, before we talk in depth about neuroscience, before we talk about your grow method, before we talk about transformation levels, which are the three things we're going to talk about, I want you to dig deeper into the distinction between the brain and the mind. Because you said, I want to help people to use their mind to change their brain for the better. Tell us about that.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with difficulty top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Yes. So you know a lot of people and rightfully so would think that the mind is the brain, but that's not the case when you look at the context of how we behave and why we do what we do. Whatever is preoccupying your mind today is building your brain of tomorrow. So that can be a positive or negative perception, depending on what you're carving into your brain. You have the ability to choose how your brain models itself. We call that self directed. The question becomes, well, how can I take full advantage of this self directed neuroplasticity, which is basically defined as in scientific terms, the ability to form new pathways in the brain through conscious intention. That said, we've got to first acknowledge a key fact about the mind brain behavior enigma. Okay? And that is that what flows through your mind can sculpt your brain. And so you can use your mind to change your brain for the better. That's the crux of again, the distinction between the mind and the brain. It's the mind that shapes the brain to behave in the way that it has obviously professed in the sense of is it positive or negative mindsets that I'm carving into my brain?

Yes. This is great. And everybody, when we talk about the science of neuroplasticity, I mentioned that in my book Finding Confidence in Conflict. And kj, you did not mention your book, so I'm going to make sure you shout that out too. But just recognizing that the brain changes based on the, the way that we use it, essentially neurons that fire together, wire together and we can actually literally change our brain by the way that we think and act habitually in a physical sense, which is, it's, it's incredible. It's a recent, relatively recent scientific discovery, but it's really empowering because we realize that, hey, listen, just because I am the way that I am right now doesn't mean that I cannot change, which is really, really powerful and a great segue into what we want to talk about more, which is the neuroscience of it.

Yes. And just to add quickly on what you just said there, yes, this new science is relatively new. Within the last decade, for the most part, scientists believe that once we reached a certain age, we were hardwired and there was no possibility of changing or reconnecting the neurons. Well, obviously since then there's been a lot of research that has disputed that and that refute has shown, like you said, that we don't have to be a certain way, we can change it if we want. So. Yes, very good to your question. So neuroscience, neuroscience is changing our understanding of how again, as we just talked about how the brain works and how and why people behave the way we do. In looking at that, many of these insights could lead to profound changes in the way businesses interact with their employees and their customers. The problem is that until now, as I just mentioned, most of this research has been published in specialist journals and it hasn't made its way to managers desk. At the same time, however, and like any other industry or sector or research, you know you're going to have some business leaders and managers that are faced with a plethora of extravagant claims based on misunderstood or exaggerated neuroscientific research. So that's part of it. But for the most part, this science is founded on a very solid framework, robust and getting more robust as time goes on with new research that comes out. So what I'm doing is I'm working to bridge the gap between rigorous science and the practical needs of business. My work is new, it's different, and it describes the practical managerial application applications of the science in what I call inaccessible but in depth way that is firmly underpinned by clear explanation of the science behind the management actions proposed. So there's continuity in what is the science and what is the implementation. But when I ask executives, how plastic is your organization, Kwame? I'm usually met with a blank look like what are you talking about? The response is usually related to their environmental or sustainability policies. But plasticity in the peer sense is in organizational terms and based on cognitive science is the adaptability, efficiency and the structural resilience of a business. A plasticity approach is needed at an organizational level to help businesses keep up with the pace of human, technological and cultural changes facing us all. As critical processes of change, management, training and leadership again are understood more and more through the window of organizational neuroscience, the impact is clear. Increasingly, preliminary research suggests that not investing in neuroscience is to remain on the fringes of global economic and social development. That research also shows that intensive exercises in empathy, perspective taking as well as mindfulness that can all break selfish habits and change the brain's negativity bias so people become more altruistic. Such results could shake the fundamental underpinnings of orthodox economics and has implications for management too, as we've already alluded to. So I think taking a step back and looking at, well, how has it been done in the past that now we are finally getting to this point of this new science being implemented? Well, for decades people studied organizations as though managers were interchangeable. And then researchers started to identify the different types of mindsets of executives and what impact their behavior had on their companies. As a given, these behaviors reflect a mindset. But the question is, what can change? As we just talked about, brains can. That much is known. And if the latest science makes it easier to work out how to change executives from one type, selfish, say, to another, altruistic, then that could open up whole new possibilities for training and development. For instance, poorly managed change can result in alarm messages within our brains. Leaders and managers need to be aware of how their words, how their emotions, and how their conduct can have a significant impact on team mood and results. That said, neuroscience posits making it easier to work out again how organizations can increase productivity, innovation. And this is what my company does, KJL International. We offer Rewiring the Brain for change. And to take a bit off of your title there, negotiating the brain, if you will, in that sense, I believe leadership should pursue positive, sound, scientific methods to improve how the brain performs, just as a CEO should work out enough to minimize the risk of heart attack. In effect, and as you just described earlier, neuroplasticity is our ability to form new pathways in our brain through conscious intention.

Let me summarize this in a very positive and encouraging way, because really what this means is that we are more capable of change than we think. As individuals, we are more cognitively capable of change than we realize. As organizations, if we mimic that plasticity that we have within our brain, we can be more adaptable and capable of change than we realize. But it's sounding a lot like what Carol Dweck talks about with the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. I know I'm going to describe this in a cheesy way, but we have.

To believe that we are capable of.

Change in order for us to change. And that's the thing that's so encouraging about this science, that if we use sound methods of change management and training, we can achieve those results. But the way that you described it at the very end was great. We have to use methods that are positive, sound, and scientific. So it's not just understanding the science of neuroplasticity that we can change. Now, we need to make sure that the educational approaches that we use, the curriculum that we create, those type of things, are pedagogically sound so that it is actually scientific and likely to then work, correct?

Yes. And I think to add to that, in terms of making the connection of, well, you're talking about the brain and then you're talking about business. How does that mesh? I mean, what's the similarities there how do I begin to break down the brain's processing relative to how I run my business? If you'd like, large businesses, really, if you think about. Has a lot in common with the human brain. You've got complex networks that interconnect the different parts and functions to ensure the free flow of information, ideas, operations, the prefrontal cortex, which I like to call the CEO of the brain, that predicts and plans the future, while the senior management team is like the cerebellum of the brain, if you think about it, you know, pivoting proactively, keeping the business moving in a way that ensures it can thrive. And so, you know, there are a few more concepts that you can sit with in a larger metaphor. And, you know, I go into that in my seminars and workshops and so on, what have you. If you like, I can go into that as well. We can continue with, you know, this great conversation on a different path. There's. Yeah.

Oh, this is so good, KJ. So everybody, we're going to link to KJ's company and his book in the description. So make sure you check that out. There's so much richest richness here. Right. There's so much depth to this. This is really exciting. And I think it. Oh, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah, I was just going to add. So, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. If you're on LinkedIn, that's the best place to connect with me, to DM me and communicate with me.

So, yes, we'll definitely put a link to that as well too, because that's how we connected on LinkedIn, no doubt.

Yes.

Very active. Very active. This is great. And I think this provides us with a great segue to your GROW method. Because again, listeners, I want you to think about what this means for you as somebody who is negotiating with yourself for change, for other people, for change, and with companies for change too. Because this should be encouraging because it shows you that you are more capable of persuasion and influence than you realize. Again, with our mindset, sometimes we choose not to try to persuade people, ourselves or organizations because we don't think we're capable of change. But now we realize psychologically we are. And now how does this tie to the GROW methodology?

Yes, and so, yes, as you just said, we're our worst enemy at times.

So.

The GROW method is one that was born out of my own frustration and experience. Like most people who attend seminars, workshops, what have you. You're sitting in this huge arena with thousands of people. You've got a great speaker giving their spill on techniques and steps to take, and you're all excited, you leave and you go home, and two weeks later, it's like, what was that event I went to? You've completely almost forgotten everything that you've heard that day that motivated you at that point. So in that frustration for me, you know, I started looking at, what is it? How is it that we can create this or fill this gap, if you will? You know, we've got. We're good at activating a positive mental state, but are we good at installing it into the brain? So that gap, what is it that we need to do? And as we are talking about science and neurons, and I think you said this earlier, Kwame, it's neurons that fire together, wired together, passing mental states become lasting neural traits. And there's a lot of scientific data more and more about that. But again, the question is, how do we actually get them into the brain? Because most of our inner strengths are built from positive experiences of those strengths. So, for example, if you want to, say, feel more confident, you've got to have more experiences of accomplishment or coping. Let's say you want to have a more loving heart, well, you've got to practice more moments of compassion or kindness for others. The problem is, again, to get these experiences into our brain, we've got to overcome the brain's hardwired negativity bias. The negativity bias means that the brain is very good at taking in bad experiences, but bad at taking in good ones. Basically, good experiences kind of bounce off the brain unless we do a little something that I'll explain with my grow method in a moment. But meanwhile, bad experiences have this way of sinking right in with no issues. The reason for that negativity bias, though, is, and why it's hardwired is because our ancestors had to pay a lot of attention to bad news because if they survived it, they would have to remember it forever. That said, that's the negativity bias. It creates a fundamental traffic jam in the brain in both informal efforts as well as formal efforts to grow, to heal, to train ourselves in different ways. Whether you're a corporate executive, a student, a professor, a corporate trainer, a coach, an author like me or like, or like you, Connie, or you're helping people one way or the other. You know, we tend to be very good, as I said before, in activating positive mental states. But are we very good at helping people install them into the brain? I don't think so. I think a lot of people would agree with me on that. And there's one this long standing assumption that if we just get a good thing going, somehow it'll sink right in. Well, we can learn to take in the good, to break that traffic jam in the brain and gradually intertwine good experiences into the fabric of our brain and our life. So here's a little experiential task we can do right now. If you're not driving, if you're in a safe place, just gently close your eyes. And I'd like you to bring to mind someone you know that cares about you. It can be someone in your life, someone in your past. It could be a group of people or even a pet. Doesn't matter. But what you're trying to do is to gain a good experience, a simple good experience of feeling cared about. And so you're trying to help the idea or an image of this person as well as a memory to become a feeling. Okay, so in that sense, you're talking about the first step, gain a good experience. That's the G of the Grove method here. We've got to activate it, we've got to get it going. And the brain is like an old school cassette recorder. I think we could both relate to that back in the day. It records the music by playing it. So we've got to gain an experience. All right, the second step, the arm that's reinforce the experience. Help this, or help install this activated mental state into your brain as a neural trait. Let it last. Help it grow in your body. Help it become increasingly intense. Give yourself over to it. The next step is occupy sense that this experience is sinking into you, that what this will do, it will prime memory systems. Essentially, this will sensitize them so they'll be more efficient at encoding the experience into neural structure. The next step is weave the positive into the negative. But you've got to be a little careful about this because you don't want to be hijacked by the negative. Again, we're hardwired to be negative. But if you can stay strong with the positive, you'll associate with the negative. Again, neurons that fire together wire together, and the positive will move into the negative to soothe it, to ease it, and even gradually replace it. So that step, the grow method, can be used in taking in the good, whether you're leaving where you're weaving the positive into the negative for yourself, for your children, for clients, for students or others you care about. That said, you can use this method to heal old pain or neglect, whether in adulthood, childhood, even reaching down into the younger parts of yourself. That acronym I've come up with is easy to remember, and it's applicable to your daily life as you are conscious of your surroundings, your awareness of everything that you're experiencing.

This is great. And K.J. can you just, for the note takers out there, can you just go through the G R O W one more time just to make sure that everybody gets it?

No problem. Yes. So the G is gain a good experience.

Okay?

And again, we've got to activate it, We've got to get it going. As we said before, you know, the brain is like an old school cassette recorder. It records the music by playing it. And so that, that is the first step. The second step is reinforce it. Reinforce that positive mental state. Okay? You trying to get it from that mental state experience into a neural trait.

All right?

Let it grow in your body. Feel it, Let it take over you. The third step is occupy. Okay? Again, you've got to prime memory systems when you allow it to sink into you. And what that does is sensitize that experience so they'll be more efficient at encoding the experience into neural structure. We've got the reinforce, which is the neural trait, and the occupy, which is the neural structure. That is essentially the definition of neuroplasticity, the change in adaptability of the brain for structure and function. The next step is the weave depositor into the negative. That is where again, because we are already hardwired negatively, we've got to weave the positive into the negative and allowing us to get the nuance to fire together so they can wire together. And what that does eventually is allow you to replace that negative experience or thoughts with the positive. And that is when you are able to grow, to heal, to train yourself in any manner that is beneficial to you.

This is great. And what I'm realizing here is that this is not a quick process. When we think about neuroplasticity, this takes time. And so this is not like a microwaves type of solution. Unless you use microwaves in a vastly different type of dangerous way. This is not or microwave solution. This is going to take some time, but it's worth it because again, we're looking for lasting change, lasting change within ourselves and within others and within organizations. And so tell me, tell me what you think about this, because I think people can see really clearly how this grow methodology will work within ourselves as a practice of introspection, to work through these challenges, to make sure that we're adopting this lasting change. But when it comes to others, and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

It's.

To me, it sounds like recognizing that a lot of times persuasion takes time and we have to in many ways help people through this process. They might not be familiar with the neuroscience, they might not be familiar with the formality of the process in the way that you've described, but if we're persistent in helping and encouraging people and having a more long term perspective for behavior change, it seems like we could kind of help guide them through this process themselves so they can experience lasting change as well.

Yes, definitely. And it's, as you said, not a quick fix. This does take practice. Like anything worthwhile, you've got to put in work. And my experience was one where it was a bit by bit, a gradual intertwining of those good experiences into the fabric of my brain. So, you know, we can talk about, you know, people saying, well, it sounds like what you're doing is, you know, this positive rah, rah, rah. No, we're not covering over negative truths. You know, paradoxically, the more we take in the good, the more we're able to see the bad and do something about it. Okay. And so what this is really about is about taking control of the brain's stone age bias in the 21st century. And this is in order to address the excessive focus on the bad and the over worry about it. And you're right. To help others, we first have to be with ourselves, if you will, in making that transition or that transformation. And so it's not going to be like you said, this quick fix, but any time of day, say after the lunch, at night, before bedtime, you can practice these kinds of things in a natural setting where you are eventually, like I said, or progressively getting better at installing these positive mental states so that they become part of you and your brain. And in doing that, you allow yourself to be more mindful of others and their behavior and how you can help them do the same.

Yeah. Oh, this is good. This is good. And now kj, with the last, with the final minutes we have remaining, I want to talk about the transformation levels. And I know with each of these five levels of transformation, I mean, we could have individual podcasts on each level, but I think considering the time, my focus would be on making sure that people are aware of the levels and then this will help them to be more targeted with their persuasive endeavors as well. So they could say, all right, I should. At this moment, my goal in this conversation is to persuade at this level that level those type of things so can you give the audience a brief overview on the five levels of transformation?

Sure, yes. And again, you know, it's about persuasion and negotiation in a sense that you've got to say, you know what? This is what I need to do. I'm going to put in the hard work. And so we each live in our own unique world where we see, we hear, we read and understand through our own belief systems. And so, you know, the thing I'd like to start with is the processing system in our brain, where it all starts, that is taking a look at why and how. The reticular activating system, which is a bundle of nerves at the top of the brain stem, this is the brain's command and control center. We can train that to activate our body and mind in remarkably infinite ways. How do we train the ras sharp for particular activating system? Let's say we have a goal of stop smoking or remember names better or spend more time with the family and kids. Any goal. So from the power of beliefs, there are the power of questions, because questions determine your focus. If you think about it, the mind will always search for an answer if you ask the question, and it will only think one thought at a time. So those are key principles to keep in mind here. The RAS is activated when there is an intent, a desire. So what are you focused on most is the most real? That's the power of questions. So, you know, let's take it a step back. Even Kwame, I don't know how long it's been for you, but back in school, we were taught the core six message six core questions, that is the five W's and the one H. And so in association with these questions, there are five levels of transformation we must consider to get us from where we are to where we want to be. So what are those different levels? Well, number one is identity, the who. And this is where the most powerful language or two words in the language, any language, is, and that is I am. That's number one. Number two, beliefs and values, the why. Okay? Number three, capability, the how. Four, behavior, the what, and then five, the environment, the when and the where. So why is it difficult to change behavior? I mean, you've got people trying to change all the time, right? I mean, they want to stop smoking, they want to mediate, meditate rather. They want to go for walks, you know, have time with the family. And the willpower will only go so far. Let's get real about that. But in the levels of transformation we just talked about, the level above behavior is Capability. And I think I might have alluded to this earlier, this is where most people avoid putting in the deep work. It's no secret. If you do what's easy in life, your life will be hard. If you do what's hard, your life will be easy, generally speaking. So yet most of us, we procrastinate, put things off again and again and again. The question is, do you have the skill set on how to do that behavior, whether it be smoking, meditation, taking time for the family. Because I think you've talked about this in one of your posts, which I like because I can relate and that is, it's called competent confidence loop. The more competent you get, the more capable, the more confident you get. And so you are more likely to do it. The more you do it, the better you get. And so that's important to remember that the level above capability. What's important to remember that is, is that the level above capability is beliefs and values. Maybe we want the behavior less, say meditating every single day. Maybe we're even trying to do it and we have the capabilities. But the belief is I can't quiet my mind. Or maybe the value is I don't want, I don't value being still and silent with myself or being present. Or maybe the behavior is I want to remember names better. That's me. Let's say they went to a seminar and acquire that capability to do just that. But the belief is I have a terrible memory or the value is I don't really care about people. That is going to affect behavior. People are trying to force it and trying to remember names when they should be addressing a different level of this transformation process above beliefs and values. Again we go back to the level of identity and again it's the most powerful words in any language. I am. Let's say someone wants the behavior to stop smoking and maybe they have the capability to do it. They even have the beliefs, the values around health, all of that, but their identity is, I'm a smoker. That is going to be a hard change to make. Or maybe someone wants the behavior of not procrastinating, but their identity is I'm a procrastinator. Again, that could be a huge change for a lot of people. The last level global behavior is environment. Let's say someone has the behavior of wanting to meditate, but their environment doesn't allow them to have quiet time. Or maybe someone wants to read 30 minutes per day, but their environment is dark. So when looking to make a complete change, whether it's getting People to read three times faster, remember names, learn another language, meditate to start a new business, even. You've got to make sure that all these five levels of transformation are in alignment, because only then will you have alignment. When you have alignment within yourself, will you allow yourself to be in sync with all that is there is that you want and desire.

KJ this is so good. And for me, I know we are beyond the time. This is usually longer than a usual episode, but that's an example of a good sign of some. When I just can't stop, I really just. I'm really enjoying this. And so I want to. Exactly. And so I'm excited to bring this together with an example too, because I remember in a book that I, I think it was Atomic Habits, they talked about the power of identity. And the example they used was a study on voting. How can you get somebody to vote if they're not interested in voting? And so a lot of times when you think about persuasion, you go with your facts and they just say, hey, voting is good, or whatever the argument is. But one of the things that they said was the best thing to get somebody to vote is to get them to consider themselves as a voter. It's not like, are you going to vote? It's I am a voter.

Get I am a voter.

And if you can attack that persuasive message toward just getting them to change their identity as I am a voter, it makes it much more persuasive. So if we extend this throughout the five levels of transformation we can talk about, we can use it as an example to show how this can, through the art and science of persuasion, we can really maximize our level of persuasiveness because we know the neuroscience. So identity, get the person to see themselves as a voter. That's going to be one of my goals in the conversation. Beliefs and values. If they believe that their vote doesn't count, then they're not going to be interested in voting. If they don't see that as a civic duty or something that's valuable, then they're not going to do it. So again, I want to target the message toward beliefs and values. But I'm going to be curious to figure out how they see themselves and what their beliefs and values currently are. So I know what the chasm is. I need to cross and order to achieve that persuasion capability. They might not know how to vote. They might just think it's too complex. So I want to figure out, think about it. Exactly right. And then the behavior, okay, that's pretty straightforward. The act of voting, but then the environment, when and where, Right? Oh, I'm too busy to vote. Yeah. Okay, well, we can vote. You can vote by mail. All right, well, where do I do it? When do I do it? Right? And so then I can start to negotiate those types of barriers to make it easier for them to take the action that I want. And I'm saying this mainly because I know when this episode drops is going to be close to November and it's going to be chaotic. But I. I just think it's just a really great example based in the study from that book. And it just, it's just so fascinating that it comports with the five levels that you described so eloquently. So I appreciate this, kj. This is really, really solid stuff.

Yes. Great connection, I think, you know, when you can obviously tune it into real life situations, especially as something as important as voting really should resonate at a higher level, even so. Yes, that's very good.

This is great. Well, kj, I really appreciate it and I could just keep on going on this, but we have to wrap it up. But before I go, can you remind the listeners about your company, your book, and how they can get in touch with you?

Yes. So the name of My company is KJL International. Everything is on LinkedIn at KJ. Lavan. That's L as in Lima, A as in Alpha, B as in Victor, A's in Alpha, N as in November. The name of my book is why is your reason for being. And I was lucky enough to get the coveted endorsement of Deepak Chopra, which I'm sure a lot of you know or should know. So for that book. And yeah, in terms of the. Let's see my company, the book. And again, you can reach me on LinkedIn. That's the best place. And be sure to respond as soon as possible.

Perfect, kj, really appreciate it, my friend. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you, Kwame, for having me. I love it. Appreciate it.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team.

So welcome aboard.

What most team members do is they.

Subscribe to the podcast because that allows.

Them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team, which excited to have you.

And I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.