The importance of Good Faith, Integrity, and Respect in Negotiations With Maria Yiannitsarakos.

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Maria, thanks for joining us today.

Hello, Kwame, it's such a pleasure and I've been looking forward to having this great conversation with you.

Thank you. I've been looking forward to it as well. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Absolutely. Well, first, I just want to say one little thing and say I'm very excited also about getting my new book tomorrow, how to have Difficult Convers, those Difficult Conversations about race. And I'm so excited about your book. I ordered it, pre ordered it, and it will be at my house tomorrow through Amazon. So very excited. I can't believe you're on your second book. I'm still working on my first one. So very excited for you and looking forward to receiving it and reading it and learning so much more. So and to be able to include that in my conversations at work and in my personal life. So thank you.

I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Especially from another negotiation expert, that means a lot that you respect the methodology enough to make that purchase, you know, because there are a lot of books out there, there are a lot of options and so that you chose that one, it means a lot. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. So a little bit about me. My name is Maria Yannis Arakos. I know it's a little bit difficult to say, so I always tell people, just call me Maria. I'm a New York City attorney. I've been practicing for over 20 years, mainly real estate in New York City. So it's a lot of changes through the years, but I love it. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Even now with the pandemic, things have changed, but I still want to practice in New York City. So it's very important to me right now. I do real estate, but I'm also a fractional in house attorney. So that's like the best of both worlds. I get to use my business acumen and the legal side. So I combine the two. And even more so, it's even better for the client because you get to have me on a part time basis because a lot of times some companies, like a startup or smaller real estate companies can't afford to have a full time in house attorney. So I get to do that on a fractional basis. It keeps it interesting for me because now I get to work with many different companies, I get to working with a startup company, different real estate companies, and I bring my negotiation skills not only on the legal side, but on the business side. I get to be part of it, like be part of those business decisions which I love. So. And I still continue to have clients on my, on the real estate end. So I still, I negotiate leases, residential and commercial contracts for purchase and for sale. So I'm still have all that. And I get to do the in house fractional size. So it's. I do love being an attorney.

That is great. And yes, you do have the best of both worlds because when you think about the diverse negotiation skill set that you need to have in order to be effective in your role, I mean, it has no limits, right?

It's limitless.

Yes, exactly. And when I was thinking about our conversation just, just a little bit ago, two words that came to mind that, that I feel like we haven't talked about enough on the podcast. Is good faith just that term, good faith negotiations. And different people have different definitions. So what does that mean for you?

For me, it's putting my best foot forward. It's always putting my best foot forward. No matter what. I would say that. I think when we go in to a negotiation with integrity, I truly think there is a moralistic side of it. So I go into every negotiation. It's not about winning or getting one, getting the other person to lose. It's not about that. If it's a negotiation, it should be a strategic conversation that we're having to find a solution to an issue that will be acceptable to both sides. Now if we're doing that, we have to be in good faith. We can't be going into it with bad faith. Now have I dealt with bad actors before? Yes, but I'm not going to compromise my integrity because of someone else. I think that's an important part of a negotiation. So part of that, like let's say for the, during the pandemic, that was a very difficult time now in New York City was a very difficult time. Now I mostly represent landlords, tenants also because I've also negotiated four tenants also. So it gets, it's important to see both sides of the story, right? So I, it's important for me to see the tenant side and to be able to see the landlord side. It makes me a better negotiation negotiator, but also helps me understand the other side, which helps me find an outcome that they're willing to accept. You know, you have to be able to accept the, whatever the outcome is. So if otherwise they're going to walk away. I always have a walk away point. If it's not fair to my client, I have to know when is the point that I'm going to walk away? When's the point? When it's not fair? When it's not. I'm not saying that one side might have a better deal, but it can't be so lopsided that then you almost feel like someone got something over on you. I, I just, I, it's just not who I am. And the most important thing for me is my reputation. You know, I don't know if you've ever heard of, have you ever listened to or read Nassim Nicholas Taleb, he wrote Skin in the Game. Well, his famous one is act of Randomness and he, and it's Black Swan is the most famous one. But he wrote this book Skin in the Game. So you have to have skin in the game. Both sides have to have skin in the game. I think it's, he actually says if you don't have something to lose, then it's not a true negotiation. I mean, that's one of the, you know, one of his theories. Of course you have to have something to lose going into, brings integrity into the conversation. It brings both sides. If they both have something to lose, well then we're both even handed. We're not sitting there trying to win something, get something over on the other person. So I really, it's kind of, he's very philosophical even though he talks really about the markets. I don't know if you, you've ever listened to him. But I think that also very important to have skin in the game. For me, it's my reputation, right? It's not just financial, it's also your reputation in My opinion, your reputation is part of it. And it's not just as an attorney, it's as a business. You have to also think long term. What kind, what is, you know, your reputation is everything in, in business. Because if somebody realizes you're not negotiating in back in good faith, they're going to remember that for the next time. Maybe you, maybe you'll get something over this time. Well, trust me, next time they're not going to want to do business with you. Or they might not. It's about trust, right? There's a little bit of trust there. So it's a position of trust. I don't know if you heard this example with Richard Branson. He talks about his negotiations with. Because Virgin and Delta, right? And he made a point where Delta, I guess there was a clause in a contract, contract negotiation, it's everything, right? We're talking about everything. And they felt like they kind of put one over on them and they came back to, to the negotiation and kind of they didn't feel right about it because if they were going to and they're, they still have, if they're going to continue having these long term relationships, how are you going to feel about that person or that company or that business in the future? You know, we're in. It isn't that important. Right. So he says how important that was that they came back. They didn't try to do that. They explained themselves and they came together that something that would work with both sides. And here they are, they're still in business together. And Richard Branson said one of the things that he writes in his book is reputation is everything. So I think that's part of negotiation also.

This is great.

Okay, long winded answer. Sorry.

It's a great answer. And let me be bold here for a moment and try to synthesize this really succinctly here because some of the things that we talked about, we talked about negotiating good faith, we talked about integrity, we talked about reputation and having skin in the game. And tell me what you think about this because it sounds like with your approach, and I would even go as far as to say this, it's a philosophical approach that informs your strategic approach. It is based in large part on. On respect, respect of the other person, but also self respect. Because it sounds like it's very important for you to be able to look back at all of these interactions and feel like you have that integrity that you have operated in a way that is respectful to the other side but also respects your own values.

You said it perfectly, yes. You always have to look at yourself in the mirror. You know, I sleep extremely well at night. Part of it, I think, is that, well, now that I'm also on my own, I enjoy being able to make my own decisions who I'm going to work with. Right. I have that power of saying no to something. I have the power to walk away, which puts. Which actually not only it makes me a better negotiator in the end. So that I think is very important. So Aristotle, you know what comprises being persuasive, Right? So it's logos, pathos and ethos. Right. So I'm sorry, I'm Greek, I talk about philosophy a lot. So he talks about. So ethos is the most important about trust in yourself. It's about having ethics. It's about what we're talking about right here. And that while logos is going to be all the statistics, the facts, the this, and then of course, pathos is the emotional part. Right. That's how I'm going to persuade you. These are the three. It's what comprises what they. According to Aristotle. Right. How to. How to make a persuasive argument. So, and then lastly is ethos. And ethos, I think, is exactly what we're talking about. It's about developing trust, it's about integrity, it's about your reputation, it's about all of those things. So if you put the three together, including ethos, you could be extremely persuasive in your negotiations.

Absolutely. And so, first of all, I want to start with some gratitude here. Having somebody who has Greek heritage to actually tell me how to pronounce these three things that I've been saying the whole, like my whole life.

Now I know how to say that.

Is the right way. So I appreciate that. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar, calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And we will be right back after this. I think this is a really important reminder to make sure that we're not missing the ethos side and we're steering the ship and aligning it with our values from the beginning, and we're clear on what that means to us from the beginning. And then it helps us to be a lot clearer when we articulate it to other people as well.

I agree. I think, yes, a lot of people, it's about pathos, and they, you know, it's about the emotion. And I think that's such an important part, especially when you're trying to make a point when you have that emotional part. You know, people are inspired by you. Right. I mean, I think that's what it is about Bathos. It's like it's. It's inspiration. You know, they. They see you, they hear you, and at that moment, they want to follow you and listen to whatever you say, buy whatever you. You're selling or whatever it is. Right. Sign on the dotted line. So. And absolutely. And some of us are more on the. On the. On the logo side where they're going to just stick to the statistics, the facts of this. And like I said, I use all three. But most important for me is going to be ethos, because I find that integrity and good faith is important in everything and in persuading people. I never want to do it in bad faith because that's not who I am. So I, you know, I'm an attorney and I find I. And while some people might say that's your job, you know, to. To persuade. I know, but I want to do it in good faith, and I want to do it because it's the right, you know, when I also. One of the big things that I say is trying to do the right thing. Right. Doing the right thing is always the right thing to do, right? Isn't it? And that's part of it. So I. I had started talking about the pandemic and what a difficult time it was in New York, especially for the real estate business. And I also oversee restaurants. I do a little bit of everything. So it was a difficult time for the. For. And it's. Well, New York. I hit the hardest one. I mean, New York City, specifically, extremely hard. So trying to balance the landlord and the tenant side, I went into every negotiation. You know, look, tenants could have said we can. According, you know, there was an eviction moratorium and they could have just not paid. Right. I'm telling you, both sides, so. And us as landlords. Yes, we could have. At the end, you know, if I was representing to the landlord eviction okay, that doesn't work for anybody. See what I was trying to say? It has to be a solution for both sides. Okay, I'm coming into this conversation in good faith. You come into this conversation good faith, and let's find how we can work together, that it works for both of us. And yes, we had. We haven't had to evict anybody. We negotiated all our leases, we gave. We. We gave free rent. We did whatever was necessary. But they also, in good faith, came to us when made. It said, okay, this is when we could start paying and this is what we could do, and, okay, let's work together. And I think, especially during the pandemic, I think it was. It was a time where we all had to put our best foot forward and work together to make it work. Right? So I'm New York City, and yesterday was September 11th. It's a very difficult time for us everywhere in the whole world, but more, you know, for us who lived through it, even more difficult. And I remember that time, I was. I was an attorney during that time trying to figure out how we're going to. We didn't know if deals were going to go through. I mean, this was crazy what happened, right? So it reminded me during the pandemic, it reminded me at that time the same kind of situation where we had to come together in unity to do what's right to negotiate at that time, we had to extend when we were going to close, we worked with people, you know, to make sure that the deals still go through, like, you know, whether it was a closing, whatever it may be. So we all work together and we came forward in good faith and we both, in both sides. And again, during this, I mean, both of them were unprecedented times again, in New York City, we did that again. So again, I know I'm going back to my. Going back to the same thing, but I really think it does make difference. And if people see me as someone they can trust and see someone that, that, that has proved themselves before, then guess what? They're going to work with me. They're going to say, okay. But no, she, you know, she. That's. That's the attorney who kind of knows that we'll try to work it out and find a good solution for everybody. So it's. We. And I was very successful at it. So I was very happy with my outcomes, not only for my clients, but for all overall, for everybody. So I think that's also very important.

Yeah. Okay, Maria, let me throw something at you. Let me tell. This is becoming Very, very philosophical. So I want you to. I want to get your thoughts on this.

Sure.

So I had. It's so funny because the books that you cited from Taleb, I've never read those books, but I did read Antifragile, which was a really good book. And when I'm thinking about what you're describing as negotiating in good faith, I think a lot of times people just look at it in terms of the. The. The ethical side. This is just generally what good people do. And I agree. I think that's good, but I don't think it's. It's not. But it doesn't go far enough. And I think what you've demonstrated in this episode is that there's. There's another interesting benefit of negotiating in good faith, because if you do your homework and you figure out where you can go and where you cannot go, and you're very clear on where you can't go, it helps you to set better boundaries. It makes it easier for you to say no. And the situations that you've described demonstrate just over and over again the fact that negotiation and conflict resolution between individuals, these are some of the, like, the ultimate problem solving tools. But if we're in a problem or we're having a problem or a challenging situation, it's difficult, it's really tough. And so there's going to be an element of toughness that's required in order to be able to stand firm in the heat of the moment in these difficult conversations. And so one of the things that was interesting about Antifragile was that he said that this takes resilience to the next level. Because with resilience, you can just sit there and take a lot of punishment and you don't change. But with anti fragility, you sit there, you take a lot of punishment, and then you get better through the process. And it seems like negotiating in good faith is really an antifragile approach to having difficult conversations, because you are fueled with more fortitude in the heat of the moment, because you can stand firm and say, I know that this is the way to have this conversation. This is how I treat people, and I'm going to put my best foot forward. If there's a problem to be solved, I'll solve it. And I know that if I have to say no, I can look in the mirror and respect myself, and that's the right decision.

So, great book, by the way. I think resilience is about standing your ground. Right. So if you stand your ground, that means, you know what's important to you, you know what your values are. You know what you're willing up to what point and I'm saying it for negotiation from the walk away. Walk away could also mean. That doesn't feel right to me. It doesn't necessarily mean a price point. Right. It could mean I don't like where this is going or what. No, that's not right. So you have to know your walk away in many different ways. Right. So if you know going in what you're willing to accept, what you're willing to do. Right. What are your parameters? Exactly what you're saying and values and your values and who you, who, who, who you are. Like that part of you going into it, it's not just about me. It's about the company's ethics. It's, it's not, it's, it's not about me, the person. I'm going to represent the company and I want to represent the company in the. Because I, at that moment when I'm sitting there, I'm negotiating on behalf of the company. I am their representative. I'm the one who is, you know, are they going to trust me? Are they going to trust the company? So it's a, there's a lot more to it. So if I know going into it and like I said, I have, if I don't like what they want to do, I have, I can walk away also personally. That's a different, you know. But, but let's talk about the company. Who I'm representing. Who, who I'm in the room for. Right. I'm in the room to negotiate on behalf of a person or a company or a business. I want to represent them well to the best of my abilities. Not only do, yes, I want to do a great deal, but I want to represent them the right way. And exactly what you're saying is you become anti fragile because you know who you are. You know what you what, what, what it means you. It. You're not worried about the tomorrow, you're worried about the 10 years from now. It goes back to your reputation because it takes one thing that you've done bad, right? Gonna just say it in some simple terms. And it will, they will. People will say, oh, that was the person who did this, this. No, I don't want that. So you have to think long term. And it's exactly what he, it's. Remember what he says, it's about long term. And think how he made his money, right? How he ended up. It was and everything. I mean, he Is a philosopher. He's a truthful. And he, he loves Greek philosophy too, even more so why I like him. He's a controversial, but that's okay. We like a little controversial. It's okay. It gives you a little bit of a different perspective now that everybody agrees with him on a lot of things. But I take a little bit from that philosophy, a little bit from this philosophy. And you make your own philosophy, right? You take a little bit from everybody and you make up your own philosophy. You don't have to follow one thing only you follow a little bit of that. I like what he said with that. I agree with that. I'm going to incorporate, incorporate that part of my own philosophy, my own strategy, my own negotiation strategy. I would put it right. And the other thing that I think is important, I mean, we're talking about this. You were saying how asking questions have an outcome. You have to know your outcomes. You have to know where, where you're going, what's your ultimate goal. Right. So the other thing I, I do a little bit, I do definitely do is reverse engineer. Right. I always love to, to work back from something. Just like you're reversing engineering a computer or machine, you can reverse engineer an outcome. Right. Work backwards from it. So that's another way. And you could do that through asking questions, the right questions, posing the right questions, knowing what the answer will be or what could be, being ready for the next one to be able to get them to the same outcome. You want, let it be also their outcome, the outcome. That's the best for them too. Right. And I think, did you, were you there for the chess championship or something? I think a few months ago, right?

Yes.

Isn't negotiation a chess? It's just really, it's playing chess. It's anticipating knowing the question to ask, knowing what that outcome would be and what are the different scenarios, being ready for the next, your next play or your next move, whatever. I think, you know, there's so many things that come into play, into a negotiation, into a strategy, and chess is definitely a strategy. You need a good strategy to play chess.

Absolutely. And Maria, I love the way that you said that because essentially what we're helping people to do here and what you've done so well is you've created your own philosophy. It's a philosophy based in good faith negotiations that are also strategic, that are designed to move us toward a specific outcome. And when you think about the like the root word, and you can, you can call me on this because I don't I don't speak Greek. Right. When you think about the, the origins of philosophy, it's philo, which is love. And then so like, I think it's, it's love of knowledge, essentially. Right. Which way is it? Yeah.

Sophia, Sophia is, is being wise, you know, and, you know, so, I mean, look, for me, philosophy is in everything, you know, and it is included in your negotiation. You, if you have a certain, Your philosophy is how you see life, how you. The values, everything that's part of your philosophy. And you could have a negotiation philosophy, right? I mean, why not?

Exactly, yeah. And I think we should. And it's going to be. And that's the thing that's so cool about it, because it's going to be unique for everybody. It's going to be different. And I think that's one of the cool things about this show because I always tell people it's intellectual cross training because we get people from different walks of life, different backgrounds, different things, and we learn from them. But now what I'm realizing is that it's also philosophical and ethical cross training as well, because we learn from a lot of people. Because I remember, because you're right, I am a big time chess nerd. I, I read Gary Kasparov's book, I'm always playing chess and I'm realizing chess is all about position. So for me, I always think about negotiation as a never ending game of chess. What do I need to do to control my control the center, who are the pieces on the board that I need to pay attention to and all of those types of things. And so that's the way I see it. And I want to just encourage people to do what you have done, read different authors, learn different things, and figure out what good faith negotiation looks like, feels like and sounds like for you. I think that's really powerful.

Thank you. Thank you. I take pride in trying to do the best I can and do it the right way.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so for those listeners out there who are saying, listen, I need more Maria in my life, what is the best way for them to connect with you?

Well, I really am on LinkedIn a lot. I mean, it's one of my favorite places to be. They could definitely connect me through me through LinkedIn. I'm actually going to be, hopefully everything goes well and I'm going to be asking you some tips. And my, my next thing I'm doing is to start a strategy podcast. I can't even. You have accomplished so much. I'm gonna have to just pick your brain One of these days. I know we don't have today, but you have been so successful and I love listening to your episodes because it's what I like about negotiation. Just like a strat, just like strategy, it's in everything we do. Right. Negotiation is in our personal lives, in our business lives, in everything we do, there's a negotiation. Listen, I negotiate with myself every single day, you know? Right. So. And the strategy is the same thing. I think they're interconnected. So you could, you could. It could be your strategy for business. It could be your strategy on. Some people want to get in great shape. I mean, there's so many different strategies. I mean, obviously I mostly focus on business strategies just because that's my focus, but strategy can be used in every facet of life. So I'll keep you in tune for that.

Yes, this is great. So listeners, what you're seeing is some foreshadowing here. So when Maria starts that podcast, we will have her back on and we will help to co promote. So that's really exciting. Maria, thank you. Really appreciate this. This was really great.

Thank you. Thank you so much and looking forward to reading my book tomorrow.

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