The Importance of Persistence and Problem Solving in Negotiation Cases With Joshua Weiss

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Steve, thanks for joining us today.

It is great to be here and great to see you, Kwame.

Yes, it is great to have you, my friend. So how would you start us off? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Thanks. I'm Steve McConnell. I'm the managing partner of MBBJ. We are a global architecture and design practice. We work on a wide range of complex projects all around the world. And our community of talented people involves everyone from lighting designers to architects, to interior designers to doctors and nurse practitioners and media architects and just all of the creative talent that could come together and innovate amazing spaces. We work for leading clients around the world in the tech space. All the leading tech firms, healthcare institutions, science organizations from Oxford to Boston to Los Angeles to Shenzhen, London and beyond. And it's just an absolute joy to do something you love to be part of every day.

That's incredible. And listeners, make sure you check out NBBJ's website because the work that they do is just exceptional, just top notch. And so Steve and I have known each other for a while. NBBJ is a client and I. I love working Whole team loves. Working with your team has been great. And in today's episode, we're going to talk about how you can turn disruptions in the industry, surprises, challenges, into opportunities for growth and advancement. And of course, difficult conversations are going to be a massive part of that. But before we get into just how like the mechanics of those difficult conversations that occur, I think it's going to be really beneficial to look at the values that NBBJ brings to the table because those values inform some of the strategic decision that they make when it comes to the difficult conversations. And so when you think about the values of NBBJ as a purpose driven organization, what does that really mean?

So I think as an organization, it's really important to have a clear understanding of exactly how you're built and the foundation and for us as a practice centered business, that is that our, our business exists to support our practice vision, our purpose. It's not simply a monetary bottom line. It's all about a qualitative bot and it's about impact to society and making a difference in the world. And that purpose is centered on health, community and sustainability. So with that we have the trajectory, we have the north star of the firm, but it's the values that are the foundation. It's the values that inform and guide every decision we make. And our faithfulness to those values, I like to say, is always a long term win, that we'll take a short term hit for a long term gain by staying true to our values. So when we think about our values as a company now 80 years young, they're about optimism, about being curious about sustainability, about inclusivity, focusing on outcomes that have impact and understanding the legacy of our firm.

I'm glad we started here, Steve, because this is a very different approach. I think it's great to see other companies in the industry starting to shift in this type of way. But it's in incredibly important for people within the organization to have that level of clarity. Because for many organizations the only question is this, listen, if it makes dollars, it makes sense. If it generates revenue, we're going to do it. But the fact that you're very clear on those values makes it clearer for everybody else to make decisions that are aligned with those values too.

We have one life to live and we want to do things with this treasured time that we've all been blessed with that really contribute, that really point to fulfillment and gratification and making a difference. And so it's a choice, it's a choice to invest in these things. Now, to do that, well, we need to run a good business. And there's a lot of competencies and skill and expertise that goes into that. And if we do that well, we get to make these choices and at the end of the day, fulfill the energies and the life force within each of us that sort of gets us up in the morning and excites us.

Absolutely. And now let's, let's make this a bit more tactical and strategic because I think people are listening. They're like, okay, this is nice. We have a design firm that wants to help the world. This is nice. Well, what does this mean for us in these difficult conversations? And so one of the things that you talked about before we started the interview was disruptions. 20, 23. There were a lot of disruptions, a lot of challenges. And so I'm not going to ask you to air out dirty laundry or go into extreme detail, but if you talk in general about those disruptions and challenges and the difficult conversations that surrounded them, that would be a good place for us to start. For the rest of the conversation, we.

All just need to look at, you know, the last couple of years with the pandemic impacts, with the wars, with political stress, with the challenge of communities, you know, not hearing each other, not listening to each other, not finding, you know, some common ground from which to progress and, and to appreciate each other. So all of these things are impacting work, impacting our lives. And so if I back up and think about our organization, it's also important to appreciate who are the clients you serve and what are the choices you're making relative to that. Earlier I talked about our choice to be purpose driven. It's a deliberate choice. It's not an overlay. It's the heart and soul of what we're driving at. Same with the clients. We're not trying to work for every client in the world. We're really looking for an alignment of values with our clients. And that's where it starts. That's where we have the opportunity to lay the groundwork for deep mutual understanding and shared purpose. Common. Common values.

Really, you're spot on. And, you know, this is something that is not discussed enough. The need for alignment of values and a shared purpose in these negotiations, in difficult conversations in general. Because if we don't have that, what are we talking about? What is the, what is the purpose of this conversation? We could just be wasting time. And I think a lot of times we start off in the wrong place. We get so hungry for the deal we want to achieve. Some kind of. I'm using air quotes for the audio listeners. Peace. Right. If it's a conflict resolution situation. But a lot of times that leads us to maybe sometimes sacrifice our values in order to achieve an inappropriate piece that quiets the conversation down but doesn't address the central issues. And so I think for. We can think about, is about this from the lens of an organization, but we could also think about this from the lens of an individual. So from an organization internally, before we even start talking to our external stakeholders or potential clients or whatever it happens to be, we have to be very clear on what our values are. I think it's a lot. It's a lot easier to figure out the financial incentives, but it's a lot more difficult and maybe a little bit more nebulous. Nebulous to figure out what our values are and what our purpose is in general and apply to the situation. But then thinking about this as individual negotiators, this makes us remember that, hey, again, we have to have internal alignment with the external deal that we're creating. So before we jump in and start talking dollars and cents and all of those type of things, we have to say, what is my purpose, what is my mission? What are the values that I'm bringing and which of those values are being touched upon by this situation? I need to make sure that those values are in alignment first before we even start going into the substance, because I might make a great deal financially that is absolutely destructive personally or even morally.

So you're inspiring me to reflect on a couple of things, including trust. And what is it that we're trying to do together as a service provider, as a client, we're coming together in a relationship and we want to do something together. And ultimately it's not just accommodating a commodity service or a resolution of a transaction. In my mind, it's about how do we want to change the world together? And so that's sort of the next level up the ladder. And so to. To move into that domain, we have to build trust because then it's about challenging each other beyond our comfort zone and achieving things that maybe we didn't think was possible when we first started. And when I think about trust, to me it always comes back to listening and earning trust through that other partner across the table, knowing that they've been heard, knowing that they've been understood. So I'm a big fan of active listening that is repeating in my own words what I think I understand this, this partner to be expressing and thinking about Resolving disruption, conflicts, challenges in a way that can move us well past the limitations of just a transaction.

Absolutely. And let's dig deeper into the trust element because I think this is something that people often don't fully appreciate when it comes to the value of trust. Because if you say something, it has a certain level of persuasive value. But if you say that same thing and the person trusts you, it becomes infinitely more persuasive. And so it's easier said than done.

Done.

Okay. Kwame and Steve said I should get people to trust me. I'll just go out and get people to trust me. Now it's a little bit more complex. So you're having really high stakes conversations and we have to invest in trust in, within the relationship before the conflict happens. Because the more trust you have, the more resilient the relationship will be in the face of conflict. And you can push and challenge without damaging the relationship. So in your experience, when you think about active listening, that's, that's one thing. Let's go a little bit deeper. One of those. What are those things that you do to build trust that people might not always remember to do?

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

It seems so fundamental. Never, ever coming up short on your commitments, on following through, on comporting yourself with extraordinary integrity and, and making that part of who you are, trusting that, that inner voice that, that you know you need to take another step forward. Engaging, being present, having your priorities organized in such a way that you know that partner understands that there's nothing more important. That I like to say, you know, I'll walk through fire for my clients and I expect a lot of them as well. This is not a one way sort of orientation, but it's a mutual set of expectations. But for sure, undying commitment, follow through, high integrity, you know, come right to mind.

It makes a lot of sense. You're spot on and it's just fascinating to me. After how many episodes, just how frequently people mention trust. It's like the secret sauce that makes every relationship and every negotiation better. But it's hard to gain and very easy to lose. And let's say you're coming into a conversation and you see a really good opportunity to work with a marquee client, and you're recognizing that the values are aligned, however it may be, they're carrying a little bit of baggage from previous negotiations, and you can see that they're not really feeling psychologically safe. They're not opening up, they're not being vulnerable. And for you, I know you approach this in terms of truly creating a relationship with the company that you're working with so you can change the world together. What are some of the things that you do to overcome some potential resistance or skepticism from the other side when it comes to building trust?

I mean, given that scenario, I think it's really important to talk openly about lessons learned and to be accountable. And, you know, one doesn't have to open up, you know, Pandora's box and completely distract, you know, where you are in that point in time. But if there's. If there's business that. That, you know, hasn't been faithfully addressed or accounted for, then you've got to start there and. And have a clean leaping off point. So I think. I think getting right to a humbleness and an openness about what can we learn from past experiences? How would we apply those lessons going forward? And why is that an advantage? Because I actually think, you know, any relationship where you're taking on really challenging, complex endeavors, inevitably there will be problems. It's a given, and it's all a question of how do you address them when they happen. And through that, do you deepen your understanding of that organization such that it's an advantage going forward. The competitor who doesn't have any of that background lacks all that intrinsic knowledge of how that organization responds or what their sensitivities are and how to be mindful of that. So it can absolutely be turned around. But it definitely begins with owning the issues and being very humble and opening, you know, your mind to listen very deeply about that.

Oh, you see this glow, Steve, this is great. I am so excited about this response, because one of the things we talk about all the time is that conflict is an opportunity. I know you've seen the trainings. You know, I say that all the time. But one of the things that you mentioned that really speaks to that is the fact that, listen, sometimes we make mistakes and we need to hold ourselves accountable to that. And you're recognizing that this conversation is actually an opportunity for us to talk about those mistakes. And I think that a lot of times people look at those. Those times where we have fallen short, and then we shy away from it. We don't approach it with guilt, which is an. An unpleasant emotion that drives us to make things better and correct our mistakes. We approach it with shame, an uncomfortable emotion that makes us pull back from interactions and relationships in order to protect ourselves because we don't feel like we are worthy. So it's the difference between I did a bad thing versus I myself am a bad person. And so what you recognize is that, is that this is an opportunity for me to own up for those mistakes and then show you that I can be a good partner for you going forward. I made a mistake. This is an opportunity for us to learn. And because you can trust us to hold ourselves accountable if something goes wrong, we'll let you know so we can work together to make things better. I think that's. It's so subtle, but I really think that we need to lean into that because that's where a lot of people fall short.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think fear is also really something to really be wary of. Fear that I have of tackling an uncomfortable issue. I like to say we have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and that's where growth happens. That's where we stretch. And if there was an issue that was unresolved and I just felt a natural timidity or fear about stepping into it, I would say there's your growth edge. And if you're uncomfortable, that's a good sign that you're in the right place to get into that. I mean, like so many things, it all kind of goes back to each of us coming to terms with ourselves and our perhaps self confidence to recognize we're not perfect. There will be mistakes, and it's all in how you address them when they happen.

This is good. One of the keys to success in life is kind of from time to time, you're going to have to hold seemingly competing perspectives in your mind at the same time. Because in order for us to do the right things and hold ourselves accountable, we have to be humble. And at the same time, in order to navigate these conversations well, you have to also be confident in your skills. And so for you, recognizing that a good negotiator needs to be both humble and confident, how do you make sure that the confidence doesn't tip into arrogance? And you're balancing those things the right way.

Yeah, I love where you just jumped. In fact, my good friend Roger Martin wrote a book called the Opposable Mind, which. Which I strongly encourage for you, Kwame, and your listeners. And here he talks about, with great skill, how some of the most important breakthroughs and ideas happen between opposable thoughts. The space that we navigate between those opposable thoughts. And that in itself is a skill to suspend our bias, to open up our thinking, to navigate that terrain. I think, yeah, we have to check arrogance. I mean, that's a big turn off. And as you alluded to over confidence, I think. I think you can help me unpack this thought. But confidence is a foundational state of mind. But openness to learn, recognition that, as I said, we are all going to make mistakes. I think part of confidence is the confidence to know that and not use confidence as some superficial overlay to block all of that. That terrain where really special connections and new ideas and new thinking happen. So as I talk to think here, if we're overconfident, I think we're actually building a barrier between ourselves and the highest potential of our interactions and the breakthroughs we can have with others. If our confidence is grounding and within it and enables a humbleness to say, things can be better. Wherever something is an organism, an organization, a structure, it's a fact of nature that there's a better iteration out there to be found and discovered. That is a fundamental of life. And so when we know that, and with a measure of humility, confidence can be rocket fuel for opening up the exchange and the discovery of new ideas.

This is so good because what we're realizing is that confidence doesn't come from perfection, because perfection is a myth. It doesn't exist. But a lot of times what ends up happening is we bring in these unrealistic expectations. If I'm a good negotiator, I should be able to get them to blank. Well, we cannot force anybody to do anything. And if you have that type of mindset, then you go in with arrogance, and then you miss things. And then your confidence is completely shot after the conversation because you're basing your success on things that are not fully within your control and unattainable goals. Right. And so I think this is really important for us to recognize that we need to be confident. We also need to be humble. But understanding what it means for us in different circumstances to tip into the arrogance. And I think another interesting element of this too, as you were talking, I started to recognize this, is that all of These things are kind of transient states. So I think a lot of times we try to assign people a label and categorize people because it makes life easier. Right. I can. This person is humble, this person is arrogant, this person is confident. But I think it's important to recognize that those states will change from day to day. And so let's say somebody listens to this podcast and they say, you know what, I'm going to take this advice. I'm going to be more humble. I'm going to be more humble in these conversations. I'm going to develop my confidence by building my skills. And now I'm good in perpetuity. Not the case. Because from time to time you might, that arrogance might come back and we have to be able to recognize that and check it, you know. And so I think there's an element of, yes, improvements upon these virtues as skills as well, but also recognizing that we need to have the self awareness to continue to monitor, to make sure that we're bringing the right mindset to the conversations.

So you're bringing me into some thoughts about interpersonal skill development. And as a firm that has very deliberately chosen to be role based, that is that authority and responsibility is vested with the role we each have. Whether I'm the youngest person in the firm or the most experienced, it's, it's not my place as a, as a leader of the company to disrupt that. It's my place to support and respect and support those roles. And that's where we best decisions. That kind of organization insists on more interpersonal skill, insists on the skills that come with listening, being humble, knowing when to drive, knowing when to hold back, all of that. And the fact is we're complex people and I think part of thriving and achieving our highest potential is understanding how to navigate those domains.

You're so right. And yeah, it makes a lot of sense because I think a lot of times people might be afraid of this type of structure within an organization because of a lack of trust. I want a rigid hierarchy because it makes people easier to control, but it also limits the dynamism that naturally occurs within a company of creative people who want to make the world a better place.

Many valid models, you know, a traditional kind of structured model is very valid. It's very proven, it's widely, you know, adapted out in the world. When I think of a role based organization, I also think of it as a little less efficient and a little messier and a little more complex. But for the right people, it's so liberating. Because you are on this lifelong journey to learn and grow and become your best self.

This is great. So this is a massive thing to pay attention to because you recognize that there are going to be trade offs and you're willing to sacrifice that efficiency in that situation knowingly. And I think that that sets a standard that's a little bit different. Because when you're doing the cost benefit analysis of this approach, the people within the organization who are truly bought in, they might recognize, yes, I understand I might take a hit on efficiency, but I understand that I'm getting so much more. So it's worth it.

Yeah. So what is the motive of a company? And as a legacy firm, our motive really has two fundamental pillars. One is, yes, the work we do out in the world, it's undeniable, the result of our energies as a business. But that's only half of what we're here for. The other is as a multi generational firm to do our very best to support the work life and the vitality and the learning and experience of the people that make up this firm. This firm is its people, end of story. And so I think it's important to contemplate what exactly are the motives of the organization.

Absolutely. And again, this is a contemplation that needs to be, needs to happen at all levels. Because in order to join the firm, you have to be bought in to this methodology because it's central to decision making, operation and conflict resolution as well.

Absolutely. And ideally, the way we express ourselves, the way we share our values, the quality of life, our work are part of a filtering that bring and attract the right people to this community. And I've always felt that we're not the right firm for everyone, but we're definitely the right firm for folks who have a great inner drive to grow, to learn, to stretch, to grab onto leadership and take psychological ownership of their realm of responsibility. I'm very much looking for folks who can articulate their area of responsibility and then consciously work to expand it and grow it and widen it. And through that, just enjoy an extraordinary experience of personal growth and development.

And going back to that growth and development, you mentioned interpersonal development as a key aspect of what it is that makes you and NBBJ so successful. And I know when I was initially brought into to work with you and the team, I was, I'll be honest, I was a little bit overwhelmed. You were my first team. You're my first client in the architecture space. And I was saying, man, I don't, I can't Draw. I don't know. My math isn't great. Calculus was back in undergrad. What, what can I add? But it goes to that value of interpersonal development. And when you think about the leaders within your organization who can navigate conflict most effectively, what are the things that they have in common?

Great question. Of course, I'm going to reinforce things I've been touching on because the things I've shared are the things that have centered in me as central to this. The deep listening, the deep empathy, curiosity, for sure, are on the top of the list.

Yep, makes sense. And Steve, one of the things that I love about this podcast, of course I'm biased, I'm very biased. But we've had over 700 episodes now, and the consistency of what great negotiators have in common, I think that's what's most fascinating because right before you came on the podcast, the person I had on before said the exact same things. Talking about empathy, talking about listening and those type of things. Are you familiar with the, the reason why Waco, Texas is so popular?

Oh, of course. I, I know all about that.

Yeah. So Gary Nessner, the lead FBI hostage crisis negotiator, he was the person who was on right before you in his episode and you're saying the exact same things. It's so fascinating. And I think that's really one of the take home messages of this episode and every other one. It's the fundamentals never go out of style. I think a lot of times people are looking for all of these quick tips and tricks and hacks and things like that. But when it comes to building a trusting relationship where values are aligned and things like that, listening, being empathetic and being likable, that those are things that will always work. So I really want to hammer that home.

Yeah. I mean, building on that, there are methodologies and habits and skills to hone and consciously develop. And I think about something we're very fond of here, time, perspective, equilibrium, calibration. And it's a simple framework for how to approach getting the best out of a group of people or perhaps achieving the best negotiation for everyone around the table. When we think about time, it's about slowing down, it's about being still. It's about seeing the moving pieces all around you and really getting yourself in the right frame of mind. And by that I mean it could be in a heated exchange. How do you come to the table? Perspective is definitely about looking beyond our bias and consciously tamping down the bias that we might bring to the table to understand the view of others. Equilibrium is all about searching for how we come together before really declaring exactly what has to happen or what the actions are going to be. But that search for equilibrium and calibration is really all about making sure that what we settle on is really connecting to the intended outcome. So it's a framework I've just touched on, but it's how we think about getting the best out of everyone around the table and the group to achieve its highest potential.

Oh, I love this. And I love and hate this, Steve, because I love the framework and I hate that we don't have more time to go into it because it's so good. But we'll have to have you back on to go deeper because I think there's a lot to explore there. But before you go, I want to give you an opportunity again to shout out NBBJ and where we can find more out about you and your work.

Yeah. Thank you, Kwame. It's been such a joy to work with you and your guidance, your wisdom, your leadership in our education has really been impactful. And with that, nbbj.com is a website that's very rich with insights about our work, but also about our research, our culture, our people. Everything I've been about, you can see an experience there in a very progressive and engaging way, in a very fluid way. It's very iPad friendly. And just to underline, I think each of us owe it to ourselves to find the thing that really inspires us, that we wake up in the morning wanting to do and make a difference in this world that we're all part of.

I appreciate this, Steve. Thank you so much, my friend. Really appreciate you coming on.

A true pleasure.

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