The Importance of Preparation, Emotions, and Relationship Building through Negotiation With Karen Walch, PhD

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Karen, thanks for joining us today.

Greetings. Greetings from Phoenix, Arizona.

Yes, bring in some sunshine to the Negotiate Anything podcast.

How would you get us started?

By telling us a little bit about.

Yourself and what you do right now.

I am a faculty emeritus from Thunderbird School of Global Management and I had been a faculty member at Graduate School for International students for about 25 years. And now I'm taking a lot of the material that I've learned and the experiences that I've witnessed and written a book with my colleagues on quantum negotiation. And I'm creating some e learning modules and doing a lot of coaching and writing around the concept of negotiation, especially under the context of disruption and a lot of cultural change.

Fantastic. Yes, yes, yes. And I have to say, I have to give you a shout out before we start because listeners, we are dealing with a celebrity in the negotiation space because Karen did this fantastic study that I quote in almost all of my trainings. And I remember after we had our conversation, our pre interview chat game planning, it hit me because I quoted you again. I was like, wait, it's the same Karen? That's crazy.

So before we get into it, can.

You tell the audience about that study?

Yeah, this is a study that I did with my graduate students and I worked with another negotiation expert, Marty Lacks, who had created some planning software. And he and I both have been amazed at how little preparation many people often do when they start a negotiation. So he and I worked together on taking his negotiation software and using it in my graduate level courses. And it gives you an opportunity for the participants to be able to prepare ahead of time and then to do an analysis of their negotiation after the negotiation. And we did a control group of people who didn't prepare at all. And we have some of those in graduate school, believe it or not. And then we did another control group where only one party participated in preparation. And then we did another control group where both parties did the same preparation. And we found that there was a significant difference in the outcome. Because we could actually quantify this particular case that we did. We had about a 12 to 15% better outcome when both parties were both prepared. And you would think it might be the opposite if one parties prepared and the other. It doesn't. You actually get a better result when both parties are prepared. But it actually showed that preparation has an impact on not only the process, the way people felt about the process, but also in terms of the quantitative outcome, the value that was created. So we've been very excited about encouraging anybody to do preparation. It has an impact.

This is great. Yeah, I love it. And so listeners, remember, this is a perfect reminder for you to download those free negotiation guides. If you go to americannegotiationinstitute.com guide, you can get access to over 15 free negotiation guides from a basic negotiation prep guide, salary negotiation, how to negotiate as an introvert, how to negotiate for your car, all of them for free at that link. And really, Karen, I think you just, you gave it away. I think we've been exposed because if.

People just don't listen to the podcast, but they download the guides and prepare systematically, they'll get significantly better.

Oh, it's true. It's true.

This is great. Well, perfect. Let's get into the content now. So for today's episode, very excited for it. The three things that we're going to talk about are first, what's missing in negotiation? What are the things that people often miss? Number two, what are the five dimensions of humanity? And number three, how do you handle it if the other side isn't using the approach that you're going to describe today? So very excited for it. So let's just go ahead and jump into the first one. What is it that is missing in negotiation today?

Well, it's been fascinating for me in this long journey of studying negotiation, doing negotiation and observing negotiation that so much of the attention we traditionally place on negotiation. Most people want to hear about strategy and tactics, what I call how am I going to get what I want? And then there's been a lot of attention on the what if or the plan B or the batna what happens if I don't reach an agreement? And then as time has moved on, then we've really focused a lot on what we want, all the targets, all the statements we want to make, the issues, what we want and what they want. That's also been very traditional. But what I have found that even if someone has their how and their what and the what if really down, many times they forget about the why. And I'd say In the last 10 years there's been a lot more focus on the why. What gives me meaning and purpose and why am I, do I have certain interests? But the piece that I fundamentally really looked at when I finished teaching and had more time to really look at the research, the current new science research, I found out that we spend very little time on who we are. So I'm finding that focusing more on who we are and who our counterpart is is so critical in helping us to actually know more of what we want and, and how we're going to behave when we get into a negotiation.

And when you say who we are, what does that really mean?

So what I love about this piece is that because of what we're learning in the world of, as I said, new science, neuroscience in quantum physics, in the stuff on coherence, mind, body, spirit, energy of the body, that I find that once we understand and actually have a deeper awareness, some would call it a mindfulness or an attention to what I will call our five human dimensions. I can talk a little bit more specifically about that as we move forward. But I'll say briefly that knowing who we are on all of those human dimensions and understanding our cultural perspective, our cultural values, our, our cultural perspective actually helps us to become much more empathetic to understand who our counterpart is. And many times I find that the best negotiations break down because we really don't understand that as who we are. Seeing a different story of the picture or of life or of what we need. And we can actually alienate someone else when we just don't even understand what their perspective of their take on life is, right?

This is really interesting. And let me play the role of devil's advocate. Let me put on my skeptical business negotiators hat on. And so let's say, listen, I've been negotiating for 20 plus years, I've been getting great deals. And Karen, you know who I care about? I care about me. And I care about my strategies and my tactics and just kind of imposing myself on other people. Why should I change my approach? What's in it for me.

Well, first all, I would say that if your strategy is working, then that is going to be what you will continue to do. Primarily what I often find is that strategy isn't working. The more I would say dominating, the more coercion. And now what I would say more egocentric approach, purely self interested approach doesn't often work if you're in the context of some important relationships. So for example, if you're working on a team and you have a project that's due and you're only negotiating and coercing and dominating others in the project, and the project misses its deadline as a result, then it's time to re examine why the relationship is important and what is your role in it. I would say you move from being egocentric to more sociocentric. That yes, your self interest is inextricably linked with your team, with your counterparts. So there's a shift in our mindset in terms of our self interest. This is not to say you're altruistic, that you give up the sense of the self for others. It means that you actually become more realistic that you were in the context of a social group, a relationship team, an organization, nation state, for example. So it's in your self interest to be able to change your behavior. So others are going to cooperate with you to get what you need done.

Exactly. You're spot on, spot on. And it's funny because I teach an MBA course in the fall and then I teach at the law school in the spring and I was talking to one of my students and she stayed after and she, we were talking about empathy and the importance of connecting with people, understanding them and she was saying, I really, I just don't get it because why don't I just focus entirely on what I need? So this is, it's really funny, the timing of this because I was actually.

Just having this conversation last night and.

You'Re absolutely right because the thing is, a lot of times with the way that we approach these conversations, we invite unnecessary resistance. Right. And so for people out there who have been using this more egocentric, egocentric dominating model you, you might have been getting, if we're just using, let's say a grading perspective, you might have been getting 80 to 90%. That's passing, that's solid, that we're talking B average, A minus, that's good. But we're not considering what we're leaving on the table when it comes to the relationship, when it comes to the person's willingness to continue working with us in the future. And I think that's one of the things, one of the many benefits of.

Your approach, this is why I find the sciences today so fascinating for us in our world, is that it's showing that when we have a lot of resistance or disturbance or interference with others, willingness to cooperate with us, we actually then lose a lot of discretionary energy. That is, many of us will participate, give even more, be a little more honest, be a little more open and sharing. When we can feel that there's that, we almost call it a vibration of resonance that there isn't this kind of resistance, science is showing us we can actually measure this. Now, today.

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To learn more and we will be.

Right back after this. Yeah, it's fantastic. And I like that now because my undergrad is in psychology, so I really love nerding out on these resources that are out there now because it's validating what a lot of people have felt but struggled to give words to. And now we're able to see why these techniques work. And so I think that's great. And I'm hoping now that the literature is becoming more robust that more people are going to get on board and start using this approach and going back to what you were saying, focusing on who we are as a person. I think this is a great time for us to transition into those five dimensions of humanity that you were talking to us about earlier. Can you tell us about that, too?

Yes, I have found, and I'll give a very quick little history of what happened in terms of my study and why I've decided to include these five dimensions in preparation. I think originally in the negotiation world, we spent a lot of time on kind of cognitive thinking that strategy and tactics need this very cognitive thinking. So there was a lot of work on the cognitive level. Then as time went on, and this was interesting to me as I was leaving graduate school, the Research on emotional and social intelligence was just coming out that actually shows us that we need to pay attention to how we are feeling. And then we have to look at how that can impact our behavior. So then I started integrating that material. So the emotional level became important in preparation. And then I started finding a lot of material, scientific material and performance material around the physical element that is brain performance and physical performance. How lack of hydration, how lack of sleep, how lack of calm for our bodies can impact our negotiation preparation and our process. So then I started integrating more the physical elements, all those things we do in preparation so our physical body is prepared for very difficult negotiations. And then I came into the world of spiritual intelligence and spiritual capital. That this is beginning to be a part of the mainstream literature, that that sense of meaning and purpose, what gives me a sense of meaning and purpose for myself that goes even beyond this one negotiation. So I have found that the more that people can prepare, firstly look, whether it's a five minute or a five year negotiation, very quickly can you do a quick scan? What is my thinking? Am I thinking in a very scarcity mentality or am I using an abundance mentality? So just that mind shift on your thinking, your cognition. Is the world a limited resource, scary fearful place? Or is it an abundant benevolent place? Just to start there, then to look at your emotions. Do I know what my emotions are? And can I manage my emotions so I can help understand others emotions and help manage their emotions? Then do a quick scan on the social. How do I plan to behave? Do I plan to come out in a coercive, controlling, defensive way? Or do I shift my mindset, align myself so I can be in alignment to cooperate, to listen, to share. And then also very quickly think about how do I want to show up in this negotiation? Because what gives me meaning and purpose in the world is to be good to others, to share with others and that I want to be mindful of that when I go into the negotiation, that I want to be in alignment with my values of meaning and purpose in the world. Just doing that puts us in an alignment. And I would say it anchors us to really who we are and what we believe. And like, as I said before, there's so much evidence to show something happens in our brain and in our nervous system that we can align and have empathy for others and to remember to look at those things for our counterparts as well. That's what I mean about the five human dimensions.

This is great. And what I love about this is not only the fact that this is going to be great for the substantive outcomes of our negotiation. But we're seeing how this is going to help us in all of our relationships getting a better understanding of who we are. But then just for our overall mental well being, when we have a better understanding, it's almost like if you become a better person, then you're going to become a better negotiator. Yeah, that's fantastic. That's great. Now this is great. So let's say again, hypothetically, let's say, all right, Karen, I'm on board. I've gone through this process. I am now enlightened. What if I'm dealing with somebody who's not on board? What if I'm dealing with that person who is very domineering, who is egocentric? And I'm trying to use this approach, but they're not. What are some things we could do?

Well, here again, you and I could talk for hours on this. I know that this is a big interest of yours as well. So let's just put it in the context of what we've just been talking about here in terms of what we're learning about human nervous systems. We are, and this is why we call it quantum, because our nervous systems are connected. And you can, even before a negotiation begins, even in initial exchanges, you can tell or you can sense the kind of nervous system that might be your counterpart. And you are to be aware of what you're sending as well, what energy you're sending. So first of all, let's start with the basics. If I'm completely aligned and my nervous system is aligned, I know what I want. I've done my other part, preparation. I know what I want and why I want it. And I know that, how I want to get it. I want to use problem solving, integrative negotiation strategy. And all my tactics are going to align with that. And I also know what my plan B is, my batna, my alternative. I have all that preparation. I am in a nervous system that is calm. First of all, to encounter someone who has an extremely imbalanced nervous system or is not mindful of what is managing their nervous system. And even those who actually use hardball tactics as their go to strategy, just at first, we always talk. Remember, we always call this kind of a stage in strategy. You start with pull strategies, all of the ways that you can listen, you can find common ground. Always you're looking for what is in their self interest. They wouldn't be there if there wasn't something in their self interest. And how can their Self interest become more abundant with the two of you working together. So normally what we find in the research that's done a lot on this is that there's really only, let's say, 2% of the population that has true clinical narcissism itself. And in that case, you will need to find ways very quickly to move to your plan B or to control or to just get. Get the minimum of what you need in that situation. However, most of the population doesn't have clinical narcissism. But once they see that it's in their self interest to cooperate, like you said, to not be resistant, they're going to have less time devoted to this, less conflict, less resource. They're going to get what they need quicker. So if it's in their self interest, they will change the game. And you're leading the game. And ultimately you can find that even you can say, well, we agree to disagree and just to say no, because based on your anchor, on your needs, you can't find what you need together. You can walk away and you can still maintain an open potential for future negotiations with each other because you have managed the process in a way that doesn't completely alienate or destroy any relationship you might have had in that situation.

Yeah, and I really like the way that you ended that too, with managing the process, because that's really what we're trying to do. When we think about negotiation as a process, we want to almost think about it in terms of leadership. That's the way I like to think about it. I am leading this negotiation not in a controlling or domineering way, but through my example, I want to demonstrate how we are supposed to negotiate. And the thing is, people might listen to you and say, oh, Karen sounds really nice. And they might listen to me and they say, oh, Kwame is really nice. But both of us, we've had our negotiations and they all haven't been nice. Right.

We've been in situations where they haven't been nice.

I still practice. So in addition to doing my work with the American Negotiation Institute, doing trainings and conflict resolution trainings and negotiation trainings, I still practice as a business lawyer at Carlyle, Patchen and Murphy here in Ohio. And I know opposing counsel. I mean, most of them are great to work with, some of them aren't. But you can still maintain this demeanor and be very respectful and mindful and still maintain your interest in mind and be assertive in the context of the negotiation. And so what are some things that you've been able to do to, to be assertive while still maintaining this type of mindful approach in your negotiations.

Well, can I give you an example here? And first of all, by the way, I want to say I'm so impressed with the work that you're doing.

Thank you.

It's awesome. So let me give you an example of how I've had to practice this as a faculty member. And maybe you can relate to this being on a faculty. Not all roses and honey. And there's one of the problems, I think, with faculty in general is that we all are experts in what we do and tend to be very inflexible about the way we want to approach the ideas and the themes and the projects. So I would find that more so than not, 90% of faculty are very difficult to negotiate with. So I was working for a director, a new faculty member who had just come in and asked me to be the associate director of an organization that dealt with cross cultural communication and negotiation. And one of his ideas when he first came in was that we should ask. He asked me to go ask all the faculty to put together some programs where we would take students to contacts, either government or corporations in different countries around the world, and that they should all fit into this framework he wanted in this organization. And I had been at my university for 15, 18 years already, and I told him that we already do this. We have a program on this. You can't control faculty to do it within a certain program because they each have their individual context. Either summer term or winter term, they would take students to these amazing, powerful contacts they had around the world. And students got these marvelous experiences. So I told him we already were doing that, but he insisted that we continue to get them to follow this format within the institute that I was a part of. So I went back to faculty. Still nobody wanted to come into this institute. So one day we had a meeting, and of course we always had to meet in his meeting in his office. And it had a round table in the corner. He was sitting on one side and I was sitting kind of close to him in this round table. And all of a sudden he started yelling at me and getting very, would say, very disrespectful, just telling me that I needed to get this done. And he started to almost puff up and I could almost feel his energy just get really dark. So he got really angry that I wasn't getting this to work in his way. So I got really shaky. So I had a pen in my hand and I just put that down on the table and Then I moved my chair back and I put my hands on my top of my thighs and my feet on the floor and I took a couple breaths and then I sat back and then I just said to him, this must be really hard for you. He said, yeah, this is really frustrating. And that was the end of the meeting and the whole case got dropped. But that was an example that I felt like yelling. But I know that's a no win situation for me on many counts. I'm not as senior as he is. I'm a female working in a male dominated industry and I just felt there would be. So anyway, to me, that's an example of doing quickly my scan that I found I was really scared and I wasn't going to react on fear and it had an impact on changing both of our nervous systems in that situation.

Yes. Oh, I love this so much, Karen. Thank you for sharing that example. Because I could feel the tension just hearing the story.

I could feel the tension where if.

I were in the situation, it's like, man, I want to slap this guy.

Or I want to run away and cry in a corner. Neither of those options are very productive.

And for the listeners, you've probably heard me say this all the time. So in my book, Finding Confidence in Conflict, I talk about the compassionate curiosity framework where the first step is acknowledge and validate emotions. Second step is getting curious with compassion, and then third step is joint problem solving. And what I always say is sometimes the conversation is so heated and they're so emotional that you can't even get to steps two or three. You just need to acknowledge the emotion and get the emotions back down and then move on from there. And that's exactly what you did. You labeled and acknowledged the emotion and. And then what happened? He expressed himself and he started to calm down, he started to decompress. And that's the magic behind it. If you acknowledge and validate their emotions and you keep on doing it, eventually they're going to calm down.

Yeah, it's pretty powerful. And that's why I salute all of your listeners out there who are doing their own personal development and their leadership development around understanding and managing their emotions and their behavior in leadership positions. That. That's so powerful and it's so misunderstood that coaching, debriefing, mentoring, practice, debriefing, practice, coaching. As you said, this is a lifelong experience in terms of your own personal development and your human potential.

Absolutely. And one other thing too, about your story that I really want to impress upon the listeners that we're all Exposed to media. We've all seen movies, and in movies, that's not how the protagonist would have responded. The protagonist would have puffed up in the situation and delivered this flawless, elegant speech and left the other side speechless and confused. Right.

That's just. It's not how it works in the real world. And the thing that's really funny about the most effective negotiation techniques is that they're boring.

I know. Well, they're exciting to us on another level. Right.

Exactly.

It's so exciting to watch the choreography of something work out in a different way.

Exactly. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, Karen, this has been a lot of fun.

We really appreciate you joining us.

But before you go, please tell the.

Listeners how they can get in touch with you and again, about the book too.

Yes, I would love to share my email address with all of you and if you are on LinkedIn, please connect with me there. Continuing to keep posts and keep up with everybody there. Karen Walch W A L C H and my email is Karen K A R E nuantum negotiation.com and there's no space Quantum Negotiation. And you can find our book Quantum Negotiation on Amazon and @WileyPress. And we have hard copy, soft copy, audible copy, anything that you want. And we'd love to continue to coach and debrief and get more stories all the time. And I'll be sharing one of Kwame stories pretty soon. I hope to interview you soon sometime for a story. I would love it.

I would love it, too. Thank you so much, Karen.

We really appreciate it.

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Will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.