The Leadership Mistake That’s Costing You Your Best People (Anne Chow)

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.

Ann, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me, Kwame. I'm excited about our conversation.

Yes, me too. It's our pleasure. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. Thank you so much. So, a little bit about myself, and I actually think this question is spot on because people confuse who they are with what they do. So who I am is. Is. I'm a proud second generation American. I'm the daughter of Taiwanese immigrants and I'm a mom, I am a daughter, I am a sister, I am a wife. And I have had the incredible fortune, over three decades of a career to be both a student and practitioner of leadership. In my corporate career, which spanned over 32 years, I worked at AT&T, where I started out actually as a network engineer and then went on to have, all told, 17 different roles and 26 different bosses. And the role that I retired from ATT out of was as the CEO of AT&T business, which was the business at AT&T that served all business clients, small to large to global multinational. It was a $35 billion business with 35,000 people around the globe and was a fantastic job. I had that role through Covid. Actually. I was appointed in 2019. Then the world changed and it was wild and rewarding. Now I am in a phase that I call my rewirement. So I have not left the workforce by any stretch. I just stopped working for one company and I'm living a little bit of the portfolio life. I serve on a couple of public boards awards, the Franklin Covey 3M and CSX. And I'm also a senior fellow and adjunct professor at Kellogg Northwestern, and I actually have just recently written my own solo book. And then I do keynotes like you. I think. I think Kwame, I'm like a mini aspiring you is what I think. I.

Oh, that is funny. And she has a sense of humor, everybody. And thank you. This is great. And we're so excited to have you here because you've had an incredible career and it continues to in and continuing to serve people all over the world. And what's really inspiring about the work that you do is that it's grounded in leadership and you're constantly helping people to move forward. And I know that inclusion is important to you as well. And with this, I think it'll be a great opportunity for us to talk about your most recent book. And then we can talk about the negotiation and sales skills that will be necessary in order for people to lead in the way that you suggest in your books, too.

Yeah, absolutely. So, Krista Kwame, I will say, because it is an honor for me to be part of Negotiate Anything is that I actually spent over half of my corporate career in B2B sales. So negotiation and the art of relationships is totally. It is totally my jam. But let me get back to leadership and kind of my view about that and inclusion. So the book that I've written, which is called Lead Bigger the Transformative Power of Inclusion, is a leadership book. It is a book that strives to reframe inclusion and leading bigger simply as the mission to widen your perspectives to have greater performance and impact. End. Stop. That's it. I believe wholeheartedly that inclusion and the ability to lead inclusively is a core leadership competency of the modern world. And if you are not an inclusive leader, you will ultimately lose to someone who is, whether it's in the context of your customers, whether it's in the context of your investors and shareholders, whether it's in the context of having the best, best talent today and the best talent tomorrow. So it is a topic that I am super passionate about. My inspiration for writing the book is very much my point of view that inclusion is very much misunderstood. It's actually, this is quote out my book. Inclusion itself has been made too small. Stuck at the end of the DEI acronym. Right? And given the fact that the world today is way more interconnected than it ever has been, but yet so many facets of the world, certainly here in the United States States, people are more divided than ever. And we have a polarized environment that not only transcends our personal lives, but also our professional lives. And these are all things that leaders now must not only grapple with, they must lead through. Therefore, they must learn to lead bigger.

Oh my goodness. And there's so much to explore here. First of all, what I love about this is that I can tell that you've taken a lot of time and effort and paid a lot of attention to the persuasive approach of this book. Because I'm recognizing that when we think about inclusion, like you said, it's very misunderstood and I want to explore that too. But then also there has to be a way for us to communicate this in a way that is also persuasive because we understand there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. So people might be accurate, but if they can't communicate persuasively, they're not going to be able to affect the change that they want to create. And so I'd like you to just talk for a little bit about the misunderstanding of inclusion. What is it that people tend to get wrong when they hear that word?

Sure, in, in today's world, and this is largely a US phenomena, but there are, in, in other countries and part of the world, they have their own flavor of what I would say is a actually non inclusive perception of what it is. So here in the United States, right? Most everybody has heard the acronym Diversity, Equity, inclusion, right? I have personally never been a fan of the acronym because it oversimplifies three very complex and important concepts and realities. And while they're interconnected, they're three very different things. I'll touch on the first two and then I'll focus on inclusion. So from my perspective, right? And this is based on over three decades of leadership in many different roles, very much out in the market with serving clients of all shapes and sizes across all industries. Diversity just is a fact, okay? It's just a fact. The world is changing, demographics of the world are changing. Diversity just a fact. So you can choose to ignore the changing facts of the world and be left behind, right? One example that I use is who would have ever thought that whether you would wear a mask or not would be a dimension of individuality and diversity, right? Never would we have thought that that would have been a dimension that would even be relevant, right? So diversity is just a fact, okay? Equity is an outcome, right? And equity to mean just simply means fairness. You know, I've got two Gen Z daughters and ever since they were little, I would always say to them, hey look, you know, fair is not equal, right? I don't really care what all these other people are doing. But you know, we are about fairness here, which is not about equality, it's about fairness, right? Is this a fair outcome? And as a leader, you have to decide what fair outcomes are you going for, right? Do you want equitable access to healthcare? Do you want for your employees, all of your employees or just some of your employees? Do you want equitable access to your services from some of your customers or all of the marketplace? Right. And of course, all is a very, very lofty goal. Right? But this exercise of what equitable outcomes are you striving for as goals is simply that, right? So equity is an outcome, but it is situational and conditional. And what you as a leader are seeking as it relates to fairness and then inclusion, Right? Inclusion. And this is why I wrote a book about inclusion is about action, right? It is about a requirement to mentally, in your mind, physically in your decision making. It is in your thoughts, it's in your actions, it's in your behaviors. It's not just in your words, doing something. What the current DEI conversation has been about has really been limited to issues of gender and race and representation. And that is it, right? Inclusion is so much more. Again, come back to my definition of leading bigger and inclusive leadership, which I talk about synonymously. It's about widening your perspectives for greater performance and impact. That means that you will need to surround yourself with different people, that you'll need to expose yourself to different and diverse sets of data. Right? Different and diverse points of view. Right? And that is what inclusion and leading inclusively is about. There's so much, you know, there's so much studies out there about how, you know, inclusion yields better results in terms of innovation, in terms of decision making, in terms of return on investment, in terms of growth. And so I just feel like the discussion around inclusion has been actually very, very much misguided. So when I talk about inclusion, I talk about it as a necessary trait of bigger leaders. Right? We certainly know. We certainly know that when we see a behavior.

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And I would offer sometimes in mind we're like, why is that leader behaving that way? It's like they're behaving so small. Right. I wanted to assert a point of view, very, very practically speaking, on what is leading bigger. What is it that we need as a society, as a humanity, in any industry, we need bigger leadership now more than ever. That's my view about inclusion. It's a little bit wordy, but I think setting that context, because this is not a conversation about dei, it's about a conversation about leadership, which is the one thing that has transcended time, culture, history, race, ethnicity. Leadership is the one thing that has always propelled human progress.

This is powerful and it shows the power of definitions as well. Because if we just blew past dei, diversity, equity and inclusion, different people would have had different definitions based in large part on their perspective, on their biases, their lived experience, whatever it happens to be. And a lot of times these conversations, it's, I was going to say they get go off the rails, but a lot of times they have never even been on the rails because we have people who are talking about vastly different things but using the same words.

Yes, 100% right. 100% right. And I think this is where the idea of negotiation, the practicality of having to not just deal with other people, but having to work with other people, you know, connect with other people, be vulnerable with other people, empathize with other people, becomes so critical and is necessary for bigger leadership.

Agreed, agreed. And this is a great segue into the persuasive approach that you utilized as you are describing this, because as we're talking it's clear that you believe this. So there's authenticity rooted in the approach, but also it is rooted in pragmatism and practicality. And you're using, utilizing language that business leaders can respect and understand. And when you, especially when you think about the fact that a lot of times this is a very US based phenomenon. Both of us are in the United States and it trickles into other countries in different ways. The just the terminology that you used at the beginning to describe your methodology is perfectly aligned with what business leaders in America would want to pay attention to. So it's about widening your perspective for greater performance and impact. And if you don't figure this out, you will not win, you will lose to somebody who has. And in our society it's about winning and losing impact and outcomes. And when you put it in those terms, now people are paying attention. Now they're saying, okay, I can get on with this.

Yeah, I hope so, certainly. Right. And the framework that I have, what I call my lead, bigger framework, has three elements. And this is actually how the book is structured. It starts with work, then goes to workforce, then goes to workplace. Right. And to your point, right, leaders, business leaders, we are all in our roles because we need business done, right? I mean, there's a job to be done, right? The work comes first, right. I think we're naive if we think that it doesn't. Right. Even if you're leading a nonprofit or you're leading the PTO as a volunteer parent teachers organization or whatnot, there is still a job to be done. There is still work to be done. So for me, it starts with the work. Right. And sometimes I think people lose sight of. And this was my earlier comment about the current conversation in some circles being too narrow because it's about workforce representation. That is an element of inclusion. It is not enough. Right. And I would argue that leaders need to start with the work. That's why you're all there. Right?

Yes, I agree. I agree. Now let's turn this into a bit of a coaching session. And so let's say people are listening and they want to create positive change in their workforce, actually, I should say in their work, their workforce and their workplace. And they're trying to figure out what skills they need. When you think about this through the lens of sales skills or negotiation skills, what are some of those skills that these leaders will need in order to advocate for more inclusive policies within their work environments?

Yeah, no, it's, it's a, it's a great question. Right. And I, I will share a comment. And I, I think, you know, we both of us are on the same page with this. I, I've spent over half of career in business to business selling. And so that's given me such an inside point of view of how to work with all different kinds of people and all different kinds of roles, you know, in stated leadership roles and chosen leadership roles. And so I, I am very opinionated about this. Right. I actually happen to believe that life is largely about sales, also negotiation. Right. I mean, they are part and parcel together. And ultimately, when you think about leadership, right. Leadership is about getting people aligned together to do something and move forward. Right. It's about getting the job done. Right. Whether it's one person, two people, you know, thousands of people. Right. Whether it's even compelling. Right. Whether it's compelling Potential future customer base, whether it's going to seek for a different set of investors. Right. Leadership is about compelling persons, right. People and individuals to do something in aligned way. Okay. So that, that realization that you are working to compel people. You know, if you were to. If you were to ask me in my early career, before all these fancy words came, you know, in vogue, and what is the number one trait that you see in a leader? Right. I would have told you, and I still feel this way today, is interpersonal flexibility on this point of negotiation and sales and connection with others. Why? Because leaders realize that if they want to compel action and behaviors in others, they have to connect with people where they are. Not only that, they have to compel them to go where you want them to go. This is not just a workforce conversation. Again, it is very much a full stakeholder conversation. Investors, shareholders, customers, current future community. Right. Community members that are important to your. To your missionary cause. Volunteers. Right. So you have to think very, very strategically about connecting with people where they are and then compelling them to go where you ideally want them to go. So interpersonal flexibility is one. And then I think, you know, I think there's. In order to do that, you have some very basic fundamental requirements of leadership characteristics. One being character, first and foremost, and then competence. I actually have. This is not necessarily in the book, but I have something called, I call the seven C's charting the seven C's of leadership. I love alliteration, by the way. So the first two Cs are character and competence. Right. Character is about your integrity, your values, your principles. Your competence, by the way, is do you have the capabilities to do the job that you're in or aspiring to do? You know, character to me, in one person's humble opinion, is. It is what it is. I hate that term, but it is what it is, right? You have your character. I have my character. Ultimately, that character is not a comm. It's not. It doesn't change. It's in the core of who you are. Right? Your values, your guiding principles. Right. Your ethics. Competence, however, is situational. Right. You know, if I were trying to be you, I don't have the confidence to do all of the incredible things that you do. Right. You know, I'm suspecting that while I'm an old Gen Xer, I know you're a millennial, right. If we stuck you in a giant company, in a big corporate job, my guess is you might not be that happy, nor would you, nor would you want to even develop the competence to do that job, right? And this is a. This is actually a big difference. Big issue that leaders often confuse, right? Character is it's a given person has it or they don't. And if they don't have what you want, you can't teach them that competence is situational, right? So, I mean, how many people do we know, how many leaders do we know that have put the wrong person into a job simply because they were really close and super successful on a prior job? Competence is not transportable across an infinite number of roles and functions, is it? Character and competence, however, are the foundation for trust. And trust is required if you're going to compel, you know, negotiate, connect with people to go and do something that you want them to do that you aspire for them to do. Right? If you are not a trusted brand, if you are not a trusted person, if you are not a trusted team, the probability of your success in getting the outcomes that you want and the performance that you want is lower. Right? So character and competence are the two foundations for trust.

Oh, my goodness, this is great. I think one of the things that's really resonating with me too is, and I don't know if this was an intentional type of move, but regardless, it's brilliant because when you think about competence as one of the key characteristics of leadership, every leader would aspire to be competent, right? Their ego would necessitate the fact that both they feel that they are themselves confident, and the people that are on their team and the people who are in their social circle both say that they, yes, you are competent. And when you think about inclusion as a leadership skill, a core competency of leadership, then it almost kind of triggers the ego a little bit because these are people who are leading, and they're usually in that leadership position for a reason. They've performed really well, and they see themselves as very competent. And then when you say, oh, wait a. The business world has evolved. And now, even though in every other aspect of my business and my life I'm very competent, this has come up and I am not competent in that, I feel like that is a major motivator for them to fix this, rather than trying to go the more altruistic route and say, hey, this is what you should do because it's the right thing to do.

Yeah, absolutely right. I mean, what makes us think as people, right? As leaders, aspiring leaders, as practitioners, as students of leadership, that everything in the world is changing, right? Technology is changing, the environment is changing. I mean, just. Right. The world is changing. Right? What makes us think that leadership should not evolve with the times, Right. You know, and this was, again, a big part of the inspiration for my book. You know, I'll give you. I'll give you an example just to piggyback on your comment about, hey, you are a leader because you were so successful in one sense, but now why would I have to change? Why do I have to change my. Or evolve my leadership approach, right? How do I lead bigger? A perfect example is pre pandemic and then post pandemic as relates to hybrid work, right? Pre pandemic, you had teleworkers, you had people going, you know, we're going to work was a physical thing, all right? What the world learned throughout the pandemic was that there's actually a lot of work that you can do without having to go to work and go to an office, right? Go to a location. And so such a huge portion of the world went flex work, right. Hybrid work, right. Or even virtual work for many, many people. What we see now, you know, through four, four or five years after the pandemic is a move by some leaders to return to the office, right? Rto, let's go back to work. Wait a second. We've been working this whole time, right? And some leaders have grown up in an era where they can lead if people are physically under their thumb in office buildings, right? Or in branch locations or whatever. But we prove that a bunch of things can get done not physically together, right? So what's that now require? It requires that bigger leaders think very differently about how to use locations, right? Presence. When do we need to be present together physically? When do we need to be, you know, present together? Like you and I are now, synchronously, but digitally, right? Very, very effective. And what can be done asynchronously, which has nothing to do with presence or time, but just it just needs to get done, right? These are other dimensions of leadership now that I would offer, have not yet elevated to the consciousness of most leaders today, Right? And you can see it in company headlines about this, what I call a tug of war between employers and employees about what it should be, when in my view, in my humble view, leading bigger is about developing it together, the best performance, right? But it puts more work on leaders to explain why you might need to come into the office for three days, right? And it can no longer just simply be, you got to come in for three days just because. Right. It's about inclusively connecting with each other, coming together for the best outcome. The office now needs to be used as a tool, which means that leaders have to actually do something different. Right. You know, I have so many friends across many different companies who work for organizations that are in this struggle. And, you know, one of the number one complaints I hear is, you know, I'm spending all this time and money on commuting, and then I'm getting into the office or the location, there's no desk for me, and I wind up on calls all day long. Right. So presence does not guarantee performance. Presence doesn't certainly guarantee engagement. In fact, I think it's backfiring in certain organizations when they haven't really figured this out. Right. That this is actually an opportunity for leaders and their people to develop what they want their workplace to be.

So this is incredibly exciting because I.

Know that there are a lot of.

People who are listening to this, and there's going to be some people who say, I never thought of inclusion in this way. I was already on board, and now I have a new paradigm and there's a new approach for me, my perspective has widened, and that's beneficial. And now I think there's some people who were completely off, off, off the board.

Right.

They were just saying, hey, listen, this is not my thing. And perhaps they were listening to people who are saying that DEI is divisive, and depending on how it's implemented, it could be potentially. But, you know, there is a bias against that acronym itself now. And so they're saying, okay, this is a core leadership competency. I want to evolve. I want to be better. So. And for those people, what would you say is a good starting point for them if they want to improve their ability to be an inclusive leader?

Yeah. So I'll give a couple just as almost little teasers for the book, because obviously I wrote a bunch of pages about it, so I'll do my best to try to synthesize. So I'll give you one on work. I'll start with work, and then I'll go to workforce, and then workplace on work. You know, the first chapter of my book starts with purpose. Okay. Leaders can think very deeply about what is the purpose of their group, their team, their organization, their company, Whatever the scope of that person, that person's purview is because a bigger leader's job is to advance meaningful work. The question is, are the people in your. Are your stakeholders viewing your work as meaningful? What is the purpose of your team? What would happen if your team went away tomorrow? Right. You know, and these are, you know, and I. These are. This is kind of the way that I approach the book, which is a couple of prompting questions and I'm intending for it to be very practical to help people with, with that. So to start leading inclusively, you've got to start with your work and you've got to start with purpose and values. Right? You know what I find again, there's the mom of two Gen Z daughters who, one is in the workforce, one will enter hopefully after graduation this year is the, the emerging workforce. The younger workforce no longer will tolerate working for organizations where the per. Their purpose and values are misaligned. It just won't, you know, they've grown up in a world that is highly transparent, right. That is very fluid and there's almost, you know, no such thing as this idea of doing what I did, which was work in the same industry with the same brand for three decades. So it's just not even an aspiration. Right? So purpose and values are foundational and if you don't know what they are and you don't know what your pe, what your people don't know what they are and you can't articulate them, you gotta, you must start there. It is about the work itself. Okay, let me go to workforce. Workforce. I'm just going to give a little tiny bit here because it's quite, it's quite, it's quite nuanced. But one of the tenets around inclusion, right, is this idea of different perspectives, right. I mentioned to you earlier about one of the leadership key leadership characteristics being interpersonal flexibility, right? Which means you're going to go connect with that person where they are and you're going to work hard to understand them and empathize with them and care about them because you want them to do something, right? So you have to cut that and you need to do all of that to compel them to action, right? Whether it's compelling a competitor's customer to switch service to yours, whether it's to compel, you know, a skeptical investor, you know, to, to give you, you know, a good, a good rating right, after a weak earnings call. Whether, you know, whether it's trying to recruit some top talent, right. That you haven't in the past had access to, right? So, so, so this, this two way point of view from a leadership standpoint is really important. I have always viewed the workforce, my workforce, my people, to be something that is, it's vital. It must have energy, it must have a life force. It is ongoing and ever going. So I have worked hard throughout my career to think about what some People would call the employee life cycle. It's a word that I don't particularly like because it indicates a beginning and an end. More about the life force, the vitality of your workforce, right? Today with social media, you know, a disgruntled employee can take you down, right? You know, a disgruntled employee or disgruntled customer can take you down, right? And, you know, and really negatively impact your brand value, right? So you have to think much more comprehensively about the people who are in your organization, whether they stay for a year, six months or 20 years, right. And think about every stage of their evolution with you. Not only from your point of view, right? Yeah, I want productivity and I want engagement, but from their point of view, which is they want to contribute, they want to be recognized, right? This is, this is hard work, but this is what inclusion is all about. Then on workplace, I'll just reinforce what I mentioned earlier using the return to the office, back to the office example, which is. Flexibility is king here. Not only your interpersonal flexibility, but are you developing a workplace? When I say workplace, I mean the overall work environment. I use workspaces to, to refer to the actual physical where people work, whether it's in their car, at their home, at an office site, at a manufacturing plant or whatever. So the overall workplace is one that flexibility is key. You know, back to the point of, you know, gen zers, you know, I have some of my daughter's friends who, their requirement for a workplace is not simply around the salary. It's is it hybrid or not, right? And there are more and more people who are like, I'm not going in anywhere five days a week, right? I will go in three days a week. But I, for me and my life, right, My job has to fit into my vision of my career, which fits into my life, right? I know when I was coming up as a professional, that was not the case at all. You had your professional life and you had your personal life and they were separated by a commute, right? So the world has truly changed and continues to change. And so these are just some tips and ideas for people who aspire to lead bigger, right? And want to pursue how do I actually think and act and behave more inclusively so that I can make better decisions, so I can have better outcomes, so I can have a more aligned workforce, so I can be the place where the best talent is today and where the best talent wants to be tomorrow.

This is incredible. It's almost as if you've written a book on this or something. This is so good. I think one of the. Back to what you said at the beginning, we've made inclusion too small. Because what's interesting, again, when you think about the, the biases associated with the terms the ei, we think about race, gender, and now when we're thinking about inclusivity in general, what's interesting is we've talked about the intergenerational workplace, we've talked about just general work preferences, value.

That's right.

All of these types of things. And we recognize just how complex leadership has begun become.

That's right.

But what's brilliant about your approach is that you've given us a North Star. You've given us a guiding light. We're focusing on productivity, we're focusing on making the team more effective, which are core fundamental business tenants. And now we can see very clearly the nexus between inclusivity and better work outcomes.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And it is, it is about performance. Right. That's actually the third chapter in my first section of work. Because you are a business, you are an organization. Your performance is measured in the eyes of your different self. Stakeholders. Right. It could be your investors, your cut, you know, your, your customers, you know, it could be your, your co partner, whatever the case may be. Right. So you have to get great clarity about the prioritization of your stakeholders and what they view as successful performance. Right. And you know, having, having been an engineer, you know, at least the foundation of my education, you can't improve what you can't measure. Right. So the performance must be measured in metrics that are trackable over time. I think this is where some of the misperceptions of what inclusion is is that it's like a squishy kind of thing. It is completely. Not at all in my mind. A question that I sometimes get is, Ann, what was it that you did in your career to be so successful? And Kwame, I would tell you, I learned to lead bigger. Right. This book is the key, almost like the framework, the outline of how I approach leadership. Almost. My. It's not at all a memoir, by the way. Right. Of course, I tell some stories here and there, but it is, it is the, it is how I led. And I still aspire to lead today. Right. And I can. One, One of, I think my superpowers is the ability to spot talent, which is also the ability to spot talent, the anti talent. I don't know. I was about to use a not very nice word. Okay. But. And I, I, I think it's largely because I have become a very People centric relationship, centric person. And every business is a people business. Right? That is actually one of my foundational leadership beliefs, which is every business is a people business, which is why your ability to negotiate, your ability to sell, your ability to connect with others, Right. Your ability to create an environment of belonging for those in your ecosystem, minimally your employees. Right. But certainly your suppliers, your partners as well. Right. You want them connected to your brand and your company. These are all aspects and imperatives of bigger leadership today. Right. Because we certainly sadly. Right. All you have to do is look on social media, listen to the news, and you see lots of signs of small leadership. So it's time to lead bigger and we can all do it.

I agree 100%. And this is a great place to start with your book, of course. Lead Bigger. And, Ann, before you go, can you please let the listeners know again about the book and how they can get in touch?

Yes, absolutely. So you can find more about my book on my website, which is www.theanchow.com. that's where you can engage mostly. I'm also on LinkedIn and Chau, as well as on Instagram as well as on X. And so you can find me in all of those places. The book is available starting on September 10th, and so that is, it's being published by Simon and Schuster, and I am just thrilled to be able to share it with Kwame Yu and all of your listeners and viewers and hopefully the whole world eventually.

Yes. And we love being a part of that. And thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Thank you so very much. It was my pleasure.

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