The Magic of Similarity: Building Trust for Successful Negotiations with Alison Fragale

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Alison, thanks for joining us today.

So happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yes, it is our pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

All right, so I am currently a business school professor. That was not my childhood dream. I started off as a management consultant. I used to work for McKinsey and Company. And long story short, my experience as a consultant just got me really interested in human behavior and the psychology of people. And so I did a, I always call it a quarter life crisis. I did a career pivot early in my career and went and got my PhD in social and organizational psychology. And that's brought me to all the things that I do today. It's brought me to you. So I'm a business school professor. Negotiation and advocacy, broadly defined, are my real areas of interest. And I do a lot of that work, both with students, but also with professionals on stage or in organizations trying to bring the science of human behavior, which I love and I'm very passionate about, to help people get up every day and live better and, and, and work better.

I love this. And listeners, if you have listened to any episodes of the podcast? You know, I'm already smiling from ear to ear because we have somebody who is a professor and also a psychology nerd on the show. So this is great. I'm excited for this one. Today listeners, we're going to talk about the Swiss army knife of relationship management, a really, really fascinating concept. So Alison, how about you help us to set the stage when you think about that title that you often use for your keynotes and your presentations, what do you mean when you talk about the Swiss army knife of relationship management?

Sure. So, right. We are the same and you and I are the same in lots of ways and we talk and educate people in this topic of negotiation. But one of the biggest messages I try to impart is that negotiation is just a term for all the give and take that happens in any relationship. Parent, child, co parenting, boss, subordinate, peer to peer at work, customer, client. And so the formal negotiations that we do, yeah, we all do those, but the day to day life and the give and take is also negotiation. So I use the phrase Swiss army knife of relationship management to describe what I think negotiation is. It's a tool tool for relationship management, just give and take. But it's a multi pronged, multi purpose tool like a Swiss army knife. So, and this is a dangerous analogy to use because I don't actually own a Swiss army knife, but if I did, okay, my image of it is it's got lots of tools in it and if you carry this one compact little tool around in your pocket, then you don't know exactly what the day is going to bring. But you could confront a variety of different challenges and say I've got the tool for that. So okay, I have a splinter. I could use the tweezers. Some someone gave me a nice bottle of wine. Corkscrew will come in handy. And the idea is that there's not one set of skills that we need to negotiate. There's a lot of tools. The more tools we have, the more problems we can solve. And not every tool is right for every job. So you can have a variety at your disposal. You don't need to use them all in every single negotiation or relationship that you're managing. You get to pick and choose. So what I like to help people do is have as many tools as possible and say, hey, if you can, the more you add to your to your collection, then the more prepar already know. I don't know what this day is going to bring. I don't know what relationship challenges I'm going to have, but I'm going to be able to work them out through the tools that I have. So I like that analogy because I think it broadens the lens for people beyond the traditional we buy and we sell, we sign contracts. Yes, those are negotiations. But the things that keep us up at night are generally not those things. Right. They're the informal negotiations that are happening every day.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great. This is great. And when you say this, I feel like you've had practice saying this before. It's crazy. Isn't that weird how that works? But yeah, this is great. And I love the fact that you stressed at the beginning that this is valuable. This tool of negotiation is valuable in any relationship. And that's what we try to do here with the American Negotiation Institute and the podcast, Negotiate anything. I gave some serious consideration to calling it negotiate a few transactional things that didn't really flow. So negotiate anything is what we went with. Right? It's a good idea. Exactly. And it's a ubiquitous tool. But I think a lot of times people don't think of it that way. It's very, very limited. And so when you think about. Because again, we have to. Let's start with a mindset, too. Right. So when you think about the mindset that causes people to think about negotiation in a very limited type of way, what leads to that and what can we do to get over it?

Some of it is simply that we are busy people, so we always want to put off anything that doesn't have to be done today. So if I have a conversation that's going to happen in a week, I don't want to think about that today. I'm going to think about that in a week when it's going to happen. And so I think one of the mistakes that people make is thinking the negotiation starts when it actually starts, and then people will encounter difficulty. I don't have a. That person doesn't trust me, or I don't have good information. There's data I don't have. And the question, then they, of course, they call you or they call me, and they want us to solve that problem. And a question I always ask back is, what were you doing six months ago when you knew this conversation would happen? Well, imagine what data you could have if you had put some effort into that. Imagine the trust in the relationship if you had put some. Some effort into that. So I am a person who uses way too many analogies, but I always think about landing a plane. Right? You want a long Runway or for takeoff. Not a short run. So what can we do to set ourselves up for success in that relationship, in that conversation, but long, long before it starts? Because people then are in a rush to do everything to get the information, to get people on board with their ideas, to build the relationship, and they're like, fast, fast, fast. And yes. Do we have tools that we can put in the knife, a Swiss army knife that can help you build rapport in 30 minutes? Sure. Right. We know some what some of those things are, but it's not as easy as, as starting, starting earlier. So where does it come from? I think it just comes from the fact that people are busy and they don't want to tackle things till the last minute. And it's only at that point that they recognize, well, wait a second, I could have set the stage for this a lot better if I had just done a few things a little, you know, a little bit earlier.

That's a great description of what it is because I know my bias leading into that when I, where I thought you were going to go was just saying that people just in general have a limited perspective. They need to learn more about negotiation to see how versatile it is. And for some that might be the case. But for a lot of professionals, it's the negotiation. Like proper negotiation. Effective negotiation is just like effective time management productivity in general. There are certain things that we know we should do, but we are very busy, which makes it difficult to do those things. So that's really great. And as you were, as you were responding, you probably saw the big laugh and grin I had because for me as a lawyer and sometimes here with the deals we do as negotiation consultants, people come and they say, hey, we have this deal that we're working on. We've had these conversations and this is where we are. Can you help? I'm like, why? I'm not a magician. You had some really bad conversations. You want me to fix this? You could have called me before. But you're right. Understanding the starting point of negotiation, that's something that people often miss. And so I like to describe negotiation as a never ending game of chess. The second you meet somebody, you're constantly positioning yourself for the impending negotiation or the inevitable conflict that comes with relationships, right? But if you are starting at the starting point of the negotiation, then you are way behind because you're missing out on opportunities to position yourself better within the relationship. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations. At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the arts with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

100%. So this is why we get along so well. Because first, I use the magician phrase a lot. No one ever wants to call you till the whole conversation has gone sideways and then they want you to undo it. And I've said that. And the chess, I use the same. I use the same analogy. I also talk about chess and negotiation, liken them together, that you can get the basics in about an hour and you could spend the rest of your life fully dedicated. Dedicated to trying to improve your skills and never run out of things to learn. And that's another reason why I'm very drawn to the topic, and you are too, is, you know, I get the privilege of getting to exist among very, very talented people of all different kinds of industries, educated people, ambitious people, successful people. But the. The reality is there's always a next level for everybody in terms of negotiation. And when you can find what your next level is, you don't have any shortage of opportunities to use it every day. You could be able to put those tools to you. So that's one of the things that inspires me, keep talking about it year after year, is because, like chess, yes, someone might be here at one level, another person might be, you know, approaching Grandmaster status. It doesn't mean either of them have run out of things to learn. They always have ways they can think about getting better.

Absolutely. And so let's talk about this, the long Runway leading up to these negotiations. So now the listeners are saying, all right, Allison, I have been persuaded. You seem to be good at this persuasion thing. I'm persuaded. So I need to do a better job of setting the stage, stage for this negotiation. So I'm more prepared, I'm in a better position. So for those people who have negotiations that they see coming down the pike, what are some of those things that they can do to put themselves in a position to succeed?

So I think it falls into two categories, data and relationships. So I'll start with the relationships one, because I think it's a little more complicated, complex. We Know this basic psychology, right? People do things. Liking is a real strong basis of influence. If I like you, you are going to have a much easier time getting a yes from me, whatever it is. And so I always wanted to make that point is people are saying yes to you as much as they're saying yes to the ask. We all know that. But in terms of are we doing everything we can to make sure that this relationship is as deep and strong as it can be by the time I need to make the ask? And so you. I always say, if you have to write an email to somebody and it starts with, I don't know if you remember me, but you have clearly mismana your relationship over time. I always say, like, just don't write that, please, either fix it first or just go in with the hopes that they remember you. Because as soon as you've said that, it's a big flag to, I've done a bad job at this. But the idea is, have I done everything to create that, that relational capital? I want to sit down across the table from somebody and I know that that person likes and respects me and thinks that I have done right by them. And if all of those things are true, I know that whatever ask I'm going to make, it's not a guarantee I'll get a yes. But I have put to your point. You're not a magician. Your job is not always to produce a yes. Your job is to create the circumstances that say if a yes is possible. I have done everything I could to make that happen. And the relationship piece is one of them. But that takes time, right? That's the idea of you want to call somebody and you need a favor and, oh, I haven't talked to them in two years. Well, you know, how am I going to, you know, put something nice in this, this email when I send it, send it off to them with the request. So that I think is one is if I had more time, I would spend it building relationships. And specifically we think about specific tactics. I would say relationships exist in reciprocity. You do for me, I do for you. I'm a big believer in what I call the small deposit. So, you know, giving without explicit expectation of reciprocity. But because the gift is small and easy to give, it doesn't really matter if you reciprocate ever. It certainly doesn't matter if you reciprocate today. And if I can do a lot of those, those small things over time, I can create without a lot of effort or expense or time on My own a depth of relationship that you think positively of me when I, I, you know, I sit, I sit down. So, so you're on social media. I'm recently on social media. It was a Covid project of mine. Previously I had used LinkedIn solely as an address book to track people that I, you know, used to be in contact with. But I said I'm going to try this posting thing and someone said something to me that, that only resonated once I got on social media. They said every time you put a post out there, it doesn't matter what it is, it doesn't matter how expert you are in the topic. It is a moment of vulnerability. I'm putting that thing out into the world. What's someone going to think about that? And the second you see that someone has liked it and put a thumbs up on it, you get that instant oh, they liked my post and you feel a connection to that. Well, how hard was that for them to do? They did it with their non dominant hand while they were driving. Okay. And that thumbs up was, could not have been easier for them and meant something to you. And if someone shows up in that way, right. They say thinking of you, right? I text you something and I saw this article, I thought you would be interested. Those are examples of things. How do we build relationships through small deposits? So is it on social media? Is it by making an introduction to somebody? Is it by passing along a piece of information you thought was interesting and you already had the information anyway, you read something, you saw something, easy things. So I think those are examples of things that we should be doing. Because the reality is you and I haven't, we have negotiated in a bit. When are we going to do this? Are we going to do this? So yeah, we have a relationship, but I haven't had to come to you and make a big ask in our relationship. I don't know if I ever will. But, but if the investment is small, then I know that, hey, there's a circumstance, I don't know it exists yet. It's not going to exist for a year. But a year from now I'm going to need you for something. I'm going to need to make an ask and wouldn't it be nice if the time that that happened, right. I had already used that time to invest in that relationship and, but the only way I can do it with enough people is if the investments are very easy to make. So I think that is one that if you have more time, you'd use it. I think the second one is data, which is. Is if we always had perfect information about what the other person wanted and could do and would do, and their constraints, negotiations would become just simple math problems. They'd be very easy. They are hard because we lack information generally about the other parties that we're talking to. But a lot of that lacking information is simply because we didn't go searching for it. We just assumed it didn't exist or we didn't have time to go look for it. So I always say, what would you want to know about this other party that you think would give you an advantage in a negotiation? Okay, well, if. Let's assume you had enough time because you started earlier, how could you go about getting either that information or the best approximation of that information? Right. Who else could you talk to? Do you know somebody who knows some, who knows them, who could give you information? Do you have other people who are in similar situations as that, as that party? They'll talk to you more frankly because they don't see you in opposition to them in a negotiation. So they'll give you information more freely. But you got to find them them and you got to get them to talk to you. All of that takes time. So I think those are the two big things that we can do with our time is, is build the relationship and get better information. Which is, I think the two things that I hear I'd be curious to hear about with your expertise. The two things I feel like negotiators claim more that they struggle with more than anything. Right. They don't have a strong relationship, they don't trust, they don't like each other, or they don't know anything. And if we can solve, we can solve both of those better with time.

Absolutely. And it reminds me of my quote that I like. It's a Chinese proverb. They say the best time to plant a seed was 20 years ago, but the second best time is right now. And so I know a lot of listeners are probably like, oh, my gosh, that negotiation, that's tomorrow. I should have started six months ago. Right. It's okay. Listen, now, the time to start is now. Right? And just to do a quick synopsis, here we have, number one, gather information, gather data, and then number two, make deposits into the relationship and build the relationship. And it's so smart. And I like how you simplified the process too, because again with putting it in, triggering reciprocity by adding value to the relationship. It doesn't take a lot because I think when people were listening, they might have Said, oh, I need to send a gift, I need to write a handwritten letter and everything like that. And I think sometimes we set the bar so high that we decide, I'm not even going to try to meet that bar because it's so high, but just a simple pop interaction, that's enough. And I think that's really, really powerful, especially when you're trying to do this with multiple people and then just reverse engineering the data that you want to collect. What do I want to know? How do I find that? Let me go find that. That's great. And so going deeper into thinking about negotiation as a never ending game of chess, we have to realize that sometimes the information that we want exists only within the confines of their minds. I cannot Google how you feel. You know, that's not how it works. And so again, thinking about it with a long term perspective, there might be some information that you would be willing to give me at this time when there's nothing at issue, when a negotiation isn't on the horizon, where they don't think, oh, Kwame's angling for something at this point, it's easier for them to be vulnerable when there's not a conflict at hand. So I think I just really want to hammer home how simple and profound and doable the advice that you gave just was.

And I hunt, I mean, 100% agree with you. I also agree with the idea the second best time to plant the seed is now. Because, yes, I, you know, I do. When people call me and they say, my conversation's tomorrow, I don't just say, you should have called me six months ago and hang up on them, right? I say, okay, I, yes, I wish you did. And next time maybe you will. But you still have tomorrow and I will still help you. So what can you do with the time that you have? And that's 100% the case. And we build rapport in interactions as well, right? You can sit down with a stranger on an airplane or in a professional context, and at the end of 30 minutes, you feel like you like and trust that person. It can be done. You just don't have as many tools in the Swiss army knife when you're starting at the moment. My favorite in the moment is similarity in terms of making sure that we are highlighting the genuine similarities that exist between people. Because if we think as psychologists, we know the greatest basis of liking and attraction that psychologists have ever found is similarity. So birds of a feather flock together is empirically true. Opposites attract, not so much. So how do we create the perception that we are similar. And sometimes in certain kinds of negotiations, right, it's our differences that are bringing us to the conversation, because otherwise we wouldn't need to be talking about it. So how do we then use similarity as a very specific, as very specific tool to be able to create that trust and rapport? When you say, I have 10 minutes. And that's why, how we artfully use our small talk before business starts to create rapport and figuring out ways that people have things in common. So I always say to people that what we know from psychology is the similarities don't have to be related to the conversation at hand. They don't have to be work related. They don't have to be very significant for them to work. So I do a lot of speaking in, in all the branches of service of the military, US Military, and when I was talking about this, one of the generals said, this is why I have pictures of my kids on my phone. He said, because it does not matter what country you go to, for all the differences between the US and that country and all of the distrust and animosity there may be, you know, one thing is true. If the person you are talking to has children, they think their children are fantastic and they would love to tell you about them. And so he said, even when you sit across somebody and you think, I have nothing in common with this person, you do. And if you can bring that up into the conversation in a genuine way and who's not genuinely excited to talk about their kids, that's why those conversations always go well, you can create a sense of similarity. So for people out there and saying, yeah, I'll send okay, my conversations tomorrow, I would say start with using your chit chat to highlight the points of commonality, the similarity between you, even if they are a shared love of a, of a, a sitcom or a shared hometown or kids or whatever it is.

Yeah, this is great. And as you were telling that story about the gentleman in the military and he said, the reason I have pictures on my phone of my kids is for this strategy, the first thing I thought of was, man, he doesn't like his kids that much, if that's the only reason. But I think it's a really great point because you're absolutely right. And I think just because I can't refer to a study that substantiates this, but I'm thinking about the fact that if we are connecting on and we're finding similarity on things that are not at issue, that are not germane to the negotiation, I think that's actually preferable because I think other people might think, oh, yeah, Kwame's angling for something. This is going to parlay this into some kind of fancy negotiation technique. But it puts their guard down. It's like, oh, yeah, the only reason he's talking about this is to connect, you know, and. And I think that's. That's really powerful, 100%.

And when you said about the kids, the, the dad with the pictures on the phone, a big thing. I'm a believer it is. You can be authentic and strategic. Those do not represent opposites. So the idea of, yes, I can talk about things that I'm genuinely excited about, and at the same time, no, because I'm a. I'm a sophisticated influencer, know that bringing them into the conversation is rapport building. And a lot of people do this art. They don't have the science of why it works, but they. They know and they naturally can do this. Can make people feel that, that connection.

Oh, yeah, 100%. And I am. I'm with you on that because that's what I do. Have you noticed how many pictures of my kids I've been posting recently?

I've seen a few for sure.

Oh, yeah, I love it.

I'm the same.

They are so much cuter than me. I'm going to leverage that all day, you know, And I love them. So. Best of both worlds. So you're right. Authenticity and almost said strategery. That's so funny. Isn't that an SNL skit? And strategy. You put those two things together, it's a. It's a match made in heaven. And then also one of the other things that you could do, and this, I got this from my buddy Brian Ahern, who's been on the podcast a number of times. And he says one of the keys to being likable is to find things that you like in other people. And so I thought that was really interesting because even if you're. It's a tough negotiation, you might be upset about what the person did, those type of things. If you are creative enough and you know enough about the person, there is some element of that person that you can like or admire. And all you need to do is point that out and let them know that you see that that makes it easier for them to reciprocate and see something positive in you as well.

Could not agree more. And I'll add a little corollary to that, which is while you're doing that, don't spend any time talking about how great you are. So there's a. There's a great set of data that I will often refer back to. There are a variety of things in negotiations that are, that are triggers, that when you do those things, you destroy the relationship, you destroy the trust. And some of them are very much about admonishing other people. And most of us know that we shouldn't do that, so we're careful to avoid those. But one of the triggers is self praise. So, yes, I should be praising you, but anytime I praise myself, my own behavior as being superior in some way, I also have the unintended effect of weakening the relationship between us, damaging it. So an example would be this is a really fair offer or a generous offer. If I say that to label my own offer right, I have now just praised myself. And we have a really. We can see it in the science, which is the best. The average negotiator for an hour of speaking time will praise themselves about 11 times an hour. And the best negotiators do it not exactly zero, but close to zero, like twice. So I would say the corollary. Find something you like in the other person. That, that's amazing. And then in addition, while you're doing that, eliminate all the words that praise you. I always say it's good to be fair, generous, honest, reasonable. You don't get any credit from calling yourself those things. So orienting all the good words toward the other person is so much more effective. And it's not. And it's not just a nice thing to do. We actually see the empirical results. You get better results that way.

It's so funny, in my mind, I'm imagining a listener who's listening and preparing. I have a negotiation in three months. I'm going to write the script right now. And as they're just crossing out the reasons why I'm awesome. Oh, no, okay, I'm not going to say that anymore. Right? But you're so right. It's one, One of the things that I realize about ego and arrogance is that if you seem arrogant and you're trying to constantly puff yourself up, the other person takes it as not just you puffing yourself up, but lording your superiority over them. Right. People don't like that. And so what they do is that it, they reciprocate in a negative way where they say, all right, you know, you think you're so great. Let me remind you of why you're not that great. And it makes them pull you down. And then speaking about the Offer. This is a fair offer, this is a generous offer. Now the person's saying, well, let me find all the ways that it's not. And let me bring that up too. And so a lot of times what we're trying to do, it leads to the opposite outcome.

It's exactly right. And to give you a specific example, I reside in Chicago, and a few years ago, just before COVID the Chicago Public Schools had one of their longest running teacher strikes. And you know, there's a lot of, in addition to kids not being educated, a lot of other challenges that happen right when schools are not in session. So you have kids who are left home alone. You have kids for whom schools are main source of the food and nutrition they get. You have even things like sports. When you're, your school isn't in session, it doesn't matter that you made the state playoffs, your school's not in session, you don't get to go. So there's all these far reaching effects. And the mayor and the teachers union were negotiating. And as a resident of the city, you would hear the reports of the store, the stories, and the mayor, you can find this online. The mayor wrote the teachers union a letter after the strike had gone on for a prolonged period, basically saying, we haven't agreed on everything, but let's get the kids back in school while we talk. So it's a negotiation. The letter basically outlines a variety of ways in which kids in the community are suffering by not being in school. I found the points compelling. Oh, yep, all these things. True, true long letter. And at the very end of the letter, the mayor's last sentence is, I hope you will agree to this very reasonable request. And Twitter exploded. Which is how I first learned that the letter had been written and it was reasonable. Who says reasonable? And so you can imagine, right, there's a this has to be a thousand word, let's letter. And the one word that everyone seized on wasn't any of the points. It was this idea of reasonable requests, right? And what that they heard in that last sentence was, I am right and you are wrong. I thought you could rewrite this whole letter. You take out the word again to your point, you scratch it out with pen. I hope you will agree to this request. And it changes the entirety of the message with a single word. And when I saw that, and I saw the reaction and I just thought it's, yeah, it's so predictable. And you would think this can't possibly hang on the use of a word. But the word does exactly what you said it does was is it conveys this idea that you think you're right and I'm wrong and that I will not stand for. And therefore I actually don't care anymore whether or not I hurt myself. My main goal is now hurting you and showing you how unreasonable you are. And then, you know, it develops from there.

So, yeah, so I was cringing. I knew. I knew something bad was coming down. But you're. You're so right. And there's great book called, called Words that Work. And then the tagline, it's not what you say, it's what they hear. And this is. That story is just a great example. And again, if you give yourself time to prepare, then you don't make these mistakes as frequently.

Absolutely, yeah.

Oh, this is great. This is great. I could talk to you forever. I wish, you know, something that would be helpful is if you had like, like a book or something like that. Have you ever thought about writing a book?

Well, I have. I tried to model myself after you in all the ways. And congrats, by the way, on yours is just a tremendous accomplishment. I'm very, very excited to, to, to be able to read it. So I'm in the works. I'm, I'm. I'm following in your footsteps. I am under contract for a book and writing it right now. It's oriented towards women. And I do a lot of my negotiation advocacy work is about trying to help women in this space because we know from the science women are every bit as good of negotiators as men, but they do have some unique challenges and struggles. Some are internal and some are just how the world perceives women that lead to some specific advice. So I love that audience. It's obviously something I care deeply about. So the book is oriented toward women broader than negotiation and important influence, specifically, more just about how do we show up as competent and likable. And we see women around us doing all of that all the time, yet it feels elusive for us a lot of times as we struggle day to day. So what's the science of how we do that? So it's in the works. And hopefully when I get closer to it, actually having what you have, which is the beautiful cover and the hard copy book and the photo of me next to my book, you'll have me back and we can talk about it in, in, in specifics. But yes, it's in the works.

Absolutely. Yes. We will certainly have you back and hopefully before that too. This was great. I really appreciate it. And before you go can you let the listeners know about your company, how they can get in touch with you, and how they can work with you?

100%. So I'm on LinkedIn. My kids call it my nerd social media when they see me posting on there, which I thought was amazing. I'm on LinkedIn. You can connect or follow me there. I love to build that community. For Gail is thankfully not a very common name, so I'm easy to find. And then I have AllisonForGale.com, which I talk about some of the professional development work, I do my research as an academic, things like that. So those would be the two ways that people could get in touch and I hope they do.

Perfect. Alison, really appreciate it, my friend. Thanks for joining me.

I appreciate you. Thank you.

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