The Myth of Win-Win in High-Stakes Deals with Zabeen Mirza

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Zabeen, thanks for joining us again, my friend.

Thanks, Kwame. So great to see you and so great to be back on the show.

Yes, great to have you. Listeners, if you do not remember, Zabeen was on an episode in September 2019. Absolutely killed it. It is. I have to apologize to the audience that it's been so long since we've had had you on. So we're excited to have you back.

I forgive you, Kwame, and I beseech your audience to forgive you as well.

Thank you. So for those who might not remember, how would you get us started by telling us a little bit about you.

Well, so for those of you that don't know me, my name is Sabine. I am born and raised here in the great state of New York in the greatest city on the planet. No offense to you, Kwame, but New York City is where it's at a point of real pride for us born and bred New Yorkers. My background is in banking and finance. I started my career in Wall Street. I decided very quickly that that was not what I was going to do for the rest of my life. I moved into management consulting. I Worked in media and branding. I've really been all over the place. And then in 2009, when the crisis hit in New York City, I got an opportunity to go abroad to the Middle East. And I lived in Dubai from 2010 to 2018. And during that time in Dubai, I did a number of things. I was innovation advisor to the Prime Minister of Dubai's office, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid. I had my own company in Dubai as well, which was an innovation advisory firm, which I sold. I was actually acquired before I moved back home, so that was really exciting. And in 2018, I moved back home to New York with my children, my husband. That's how Kwame and I know each other. We in a previous life where I was a professional negotiator, negotiating corporate contracts and working with companies that were interested in learning about negotiation strategy. And then Covid hit, and I was let go. And I realized very quickly that it wasn't just me that was let go. It was millions and millions and millions of women and mothers. And, you know, I realized that there was a real need for a place where women who wanted to work could find jobs with employers that could support them. And for those of your listeners that are parents and mothers especially, you know, I have three children, and I've had, as you heard, a very long history and experience, experience across different industries and companies. But as varied as those companies and experiences were, my experiences while pregnant and after having kids were the same, you know, where I was with employers that didn't know how to support me, fired me before they had to pay me maternity leave or wouldn't allow me to work flexibly, or when I came back, you know, said that, you know, they couldn't afford me, and so they had to let me go. And for me, that really spurred this idea that I needed to be the one to create a place to help mothers that wanted to work, to find work. And so I launched Jobs mom. And Jobs mom does exactly that. And this has been my longest pregnancy, I would say. I've been gestating this company for about five years now, and I've given birth to it. And so Jobs mom, that's where we are. We're a job board. We're a resource hub. We are a port portal for all things online related to helping women who want to work to find jobs.

This is fantastic. And, yes, you have my full support, and congratulations on a healthy baby. It is clearly thriving, which is great to see. And again, I think the time is right. The time is right for this, and it's A great resource. And so, listeners, we have a link to Jobs mom in the, in the, in the description. But I mean, it's pretty awesome that it's so catchy. Jobs mom, not too hard to forget. And then of course, the podcast as well. And can you remind us of the name there, too?

Yep. So the official Jobs mom podcast is called Moms at Work. And you can visit the podcast at Jobs Mom Podcast.

Fantastic. Well, yes, let's get into it. And so what we're going to do today is talk about self advocacy. I think this is something that is important for everybody, but obviously this is something that's very especially important for women in the workplace as well. And so the three things we're going to talk about is, first, let's get a definition on the table. What do we even mean by self advocacy? We throw the term around a lot, but we don't really identify what it means and what those opportunities are. Second thing is, what are the barriers to advocating for yourself? And then lastly, how do we actually do it effectively? So let's get the definition. When you think about self advocacy, what does that mean for you?

So, yeah, so self advocacy is plain and simple, very plain. And simply teaching people how to treat you. That's what self advocacy is. It's teaching them, I am Zabeen, and this is how you need to treat me. That means setting boundaries, setting expectations, helping them understand what it is you need, helping them understand what your requirements are, what kind of support you're going to need in order to perform effectively at work, for example. So it's communicating those things and helping them understand that you as the bean, how should they be supporting you? So it's really self advocacy is teaching people how to treat you.

This is a really, really interesting definition because the way that I see it, in a lot of cases, the way that you define a term will have an impact on the way that you see the term, especially if it's a verb. We're doing things right. And so your definition is going to impact the way that you do this. And so considering the definition that you gave, where do people often go wrong with the way that they're conceptualizing self advocacy?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So I just defined it as teaching people how to treat you. So people are not going to learn without the teachers. You are the teacher you need to actively communicate. Dear student, that is all the people in your world, in your environment, in your ecosystem. This is who I am. This is how I need you to help me. You need to communicate. And I think one of the biggest challenges that people have in self advocacy is in the fear of rejection or loss or reprimand for communicating. They'll say, well, I don't want to get in trouble at work for asking for help. I don't want to get any kind of pushback or feel like they have a negative connotation of me because I voiced a concern or because I said no to something. And we can talk about the importance of saying no a little later because this is something I'm extremely passionate about saying no. But it's exactly what you said. It's a verb. And where people go wrong is either A, they don't realize it's something that they're supposed to do for themselves. That's why it's called self advocacy. You need to teach. Right. And B, if people do realize that it's something that they need to do that they need to communicate, they're scared to do it for a number of reasons.

This is great. Yeah, you're spot on. One of the things I mentioned in my book one time was the fact that a lot of people utilize hope based strategies for persuasion and negotiation. Instead of actually saying something, they hope that people just do the right thing. And so we might have these expectations for the people around us where we say, yeah, they didn't treat me right in this situation. I'm sure they'll get it. They'll be self aware enough to recognize it. But that holds them back when it comes to the act of teaching like you described.

And hope is not a strategy, Kwame. Hope is not a strategy. Stop hoping for things. It's not a strategy. Hope is not a strategy.

Exactly. Exactly. And you know what I like about this is that although I know some people are probably getting the chills where they're saying, oh my gosh, these are going to be awkward conversations. And I mean, they're not designed to make people feel great, but they're designed to be effective. But what's really exciting to me about this is the fact that this is empowering. This is an empowering message. Because it's not saying, hey, this is a situation and the world is bad for you, and that's just the way it's going to be. What we're saying is that you, through the skill and act of self advocacy, can change the world around you to.

Make it work for you 100%. And I do want to make it very clear, self advocacy, a lot of people get nervous, oh my God, I'm not an extrovert. Oh, my God. I'm not a good communicator. Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. It's not something that I can do. I want to make a few things very clear. Number one, you don't need to be an outspoken, assertive, confident, daring, bold, extrovert in order to be able to advocate for yourself. That's number one. Number two, self advocacy doesn't just mean speaking up. It doesn't just mean standing up for yourself. Self advocacy can occur in a number of ways. One of the biggest ways in which you can advocate for yourself in the workplace is by learning, by forcing your employer, your colleagues, your managers to teach you skills to help you develop professionally. Because these are things that you acquire that then boost your profile, boost your capabilities, improve your chances of a promotion. So, you know, people often think it's just self advocacy means stand up, speak up, you know, raise your fist in the air. And that's not the only way to advocate for yourself. So one of the biggest ways you can advocate for yourself is putting the onus on your employers to develop you professionally, your skills. Right? That's number one. Another way you can advocate for yourself is very simply asking those people that are in charge, your managers, your higher ups, what priorities are. So, for example, thinking back to my corporate Life, I'll have 15 things on my to do list. And then my boss calls me, hey, Sabine, here are 17 other things that I'm going to need you to do. Pre, you know, pre advocacy, awareness. Zabeen would say, sure, let me not eat, let me not sleep, let me kill myself, but let me get all of these things done, and let me not say anything. Now, I know that I can say, hey, Kwame, great. However, let me show you this list of things that I have to do. Still, you've now given me these other things. Can you please help me understand what the priority is? What is the deadline? So just simply asking, what is the priority? What are things you want me to put on the back burner so that I can now do these more important things? And this does a number of things. Number one, this is very easy to do, right? You can just simply ask, what's the priority? You don't need to be assertive. You don't need to. What's the priority? Number two, it shows that you're organized. You have a list of things that you're doing. You're keeping task. You're keeping track of tasks, and you're going to your boss to say, these are all critical things. I want to make sure I deliver them properly, the highest level of quality and on time. But I can't do that if I now have 15 other things you want me to do. So you tell me, what is the priority? So that's another way you advocate for yourself. And the third way you advocate for yourself is saying no. Right? And no, Kwame, is a complete sentence. You don't need to justify it. No.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. Absolutely. So this is great for a number of reasons. Again, this, I'm taking this as a personal coaching session as well. Now. Now, as the American Negotiation Institute has grown, I'm now shifting into like the manager role, like people managing. And Maria, our head of content and marketing, is going to really get a kick out of producing this episode because we had a conversation about this before, too. A lot of times leaders are lacking awareness of just how much they're putting on people's plate. And so a lot of times we think about it in terms of this guy or this lady is just keeps on encroaching on my, my sovereignty here. I'm trying to get stuff done and they just, they don't have no regard. And a lot of times they, they're just completely unaware. And I know that because I am that guy. People on my team say, hey, Kwame, you sent an email. You sent a message to us at 1:37am it had a lot of typos, but it was a request. What exactly do you want us to do here? And so I had to tell my team, I think again, as a leader, we have to create psychological safety to make people feel comfortable saying and advocating for themselves too. But I was telling, I told my team, listen, I don't know how much I'm giving you. A lot of times it's an idea that comes to my head and I say, this would be great for you to do. You need to tell me no. You need to tell me no. And people have Been doing that more often, and quality of creation and project has gone up significantly, and we're communicating better than ever before.

Absolutely. And you have a lot of managers and leaders listening to your show. Right. So the onus cannot just be on your workers and your employees to raise it to you that they are unable to do something. Right. Because many times, you know, no matter how many podcasts they listen to of me saying, you know, push back, push back, push back. It's hard. It's hard. Especially if you're new in a role or especially if it's not something you've done before for a number of factors. So for employers, very important for you to make it clear to your staff and to your team. Please communicate with me clearly if you are unable to do something or if you have questions with the deadline or if you have issues with understanding priority, or if you need support. And what I will say is, don't just say it once, repeatedly. Ask them, kwame, are you okay? Is this okay? What else do you have going on? Do you feel like this is feasible? This is a question I ask my team regularly. This deadline. Do you think it's feasible? Or I'll ask them, when do you think it is feasible to get this done? Set deadlines and timelines and agree priorities with your team? You'll get better buy in. They'll be more collaborative, they'll be more motivated, and you'll get better work. Right. But you have to do it constantly. Leadership is a verb, right? It's a verb. You have to teach them that it's okay.

Absolutely. And now let's go back to what you said about setting boundaries and saying no, because it's. It logically makes sense. Right. We say okay, say no. I understand that. But again, it's tough for people to do. So let's go deeper into that boundary setting, and especially for women, too, because what I've recognized just in my studies, and I like to read a lot, so of course it's not my personal experience, but women often get more responsibilities put on their plate, but they're often the types of responsibilities that don't get the recognition that's necessary to advance in their careers. So it's like, hey, can you do this? Thank you. But we're not going to really credit you for the incredible work that you're doing. So can you tell us a little bit more about what we need to keep in mind with regard to boundary setting?

Yes. So what you're talking about in regards to women is called the invisible burden. Right. And we carry it at home, we carry it at work, right? And it really stems from that a woman's psychological belief that either A, there's no point in asking because it's not gonna get done the way I want it to be done and I'm just gonna do it. Cause if I do it, it'll just be done right and fast. Or B, they're for a number of reasons, afraid to ask for help. They don't wanna start a fight. They don't wanna cause any kind of issues at work. They don't wanna be seen or perceived as complicated or emotional. Which is an unfair bias and prejudice that's placed on women that if you see speak up. You're the nasty B word. But if men speak up, they are leaders and confident and it's not fair. And this extends to women of color. The angry black woman, right, Is a stereotype. So women don't speak up for a number of reasons. But especially what you just mentioned is super, super spot on for some reason, people, and namely men, right? And it's because, again, this is what they have been taught. You teach people how to treat you feel and find that it's okay to ask women to do things that are not necessarily correlated to their jobs or related to their career success or prospects for advancement, but they feel that it's okay for women to do that. And so how do you say no very nicely without just saying no? You say, I don't really have the bandwidth to take that on right now. Right. That's a really simple way to say no, Kwame. I don't really have the bandwidth to take that on right now. May I suggest you ask X? So I always provide an alternate solution, right? And eventually they will stop asking me because they'll understand this is not something I'm going to do. And I just, I'm never going to have the bandwidth to do this, right? So this is just, you know, right now I don't. But I am never going to have the bandwidth. So. And it's the same thing. And I will say also, it's the same approach that I always take to when I want to file a complaint, for example, right? If I want to complain about something or voice a concern, I'm not just going to say, hey, Kwame, I don't like A, B and C. I'm going to say, hey, Kwame, I don't like A, B and C. But I think that maybe if we did it in D, E and F, this could be a better way forward. Always provide a solution. Again, this is teaching people how to treat you, that, okay, Sabine is considered. She's thoughtful. This is something serious because she spent the time to also think of a solution to a problem that she has identified. And so these are all ways in which to say no and to also advocate for yourself.

Absolutely. And I love, first of all, the simplicity of that approach. Right. You know exactly now what to say. It's just a sentence. And then provide solutions. Essentially, you've turned this into a negotiation. And that's really the point of this show. Recognizing that these everyday interactions are in fact, negotiations. That deal doesn't work for me. However, this potentially could. Let's talk it out. Let's figure this out. And the way that you're framing this also addresses some of those deep seated concerns. I'm afraid they won't think that I'm a team player. Okay, check. I'm providing solutions so the team can still be put in a good position. I'm afraid that they don't think I'm competent. Hey, did you see that solution? That's a good solution. That's something that a competent person would do. Right. And it really speaks to the relationship too. So I think this is fantastic. And we started to talk about this, but let's go a little bit deeper into some of those barriers to self advocacy. And so we talked about the emotional side. But I want to go deeper onto race, gender, and bias. How do these things play a role? And more specifically, what can we do about it?

Yeah, so I'm so grateful that you brought that up, because race, gender, sexual identity, these are topics that people like to pretend don't exist and, or don't factor into the way decisions are made or even the way the world works. And it is front and center, whether we understand it or recognize it or not, these issues. So, you know, at jobs, mom, one of the things that we are historically, historically and constantly studying are how women are impacted in the workplace. And then women. We are not a monolith. Right. Races differ, sexual identities differ, socioeconomic classes differ. I mean, we're not a monolith. All types of women, all different types of identities, races, et cetera. How does this play into work not just for women, but for men also, Right. In a number of ways. First of all, implicit bias is something, Kwame, you are intimately familiar with. I see you talking about it all the time. We are biased in ways that we don't necessarily even recognize. Right. It's born from our collective experiences, our own life, our own education. But people of different races different identities, even of different genders, they are often impacted differently than atypical or normative labels, so to speak, and often negatively impacted. Right. So there's a gender pay gap, for example. Right. Men and women, when you break down the pay gap, it's even more for Latina women and for black women. Right. So these things play a major role. So how do they factor in? They factor in quite prominently. I just mentioned a little earlier that angry black woman stereotype. You know, God forbid a woman of color speaks up. She's labeled as emotional or nasty or crazy or angry. But if it was a man that spoke up, he's a leader. He's confident, he's assertive. So why the stereotype? And, you know, I could talk about it for forever, and we don't have forever, but how does it factor in? It does factor in. And for people that say, well, you know, and I see this on. In the comments section, which I promised myself I would never wade into ever again because that is where hope goes to die. The common section of the Internet. Right. But I see it all the time. Why does it matter that you mentioned she was a woman? And why does it matter that you mentioned she was black? And I don't see race and I don't see gender. I only see skills. Colorblindness and gender blindness and identity blindness is really just perpetuating those awful stereotypes against those groups of people. And so, you know, I don't see color. What's the problem with being colorblind? If you don't see color, you don't acknowledge the struggles that people of different colors have. Equality is not equity. Right? Equality is not equity. So being blind to gender and being blind to race doesn't make you more evolved. It means that you are ignoring some critical aspects of a person's identity that maybe they need your support in that you're now just not giving.

Absolutely. I remember I was talking to, actually, one of my friends. He has a podcast. It's a Dutch podcast, and Marcel is his name. And so I said, yeah. One of the things about colorblindness is that, like you said, it doesn't acknowledge a key part of somebody's identity. And I said, you have kids? Imagine if I just said, hey, Marcel, I don't, you know, I don't even see you as a father. You'd be like, excuse me, why not? Why not? You know, like, it's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. You know, acknowledging somebody and their identity is not a bad thing. But again, this this does have an impact on the way that people are seen. And so, in your experience as a woman of color, what are some of the things that you found successful in trying to circumvent the reality of bias in your world?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I'm still trying to circumvent bias, I think. I think the reality of the situation is that bias is bias. Everybody has it. It's built into nearly everything. I have bias, you have bias. Right. What's important is that we recognize our biases, and we work actively to unpack it, to learn, to educate, to improve, and to not let our biases unfairly cloud judgment in terms of successes in the workplace. As it pertains to biases against me, for example, as a woman of color in the workplace, things that I have found successful is really, at the end of the day, hyper competence. Right. You don't have to like that I'm the CEO. You don't have to like that I'm a woman. You don't have to like the color of my skin. You don't have to like any of that. Right. But what you cannot refute is that I'm the best at what I do, and I'm the only one that can help you. So you don't have to like it. You don't have to like me, but you have to recognize that I'm the expert in this field. And so, you know, it's really been my life's motto is, you have to be so good that they can't ignore you. Right? They cannot ignore you, and you cannot ignore me. I make it my goal before I go into a meeting, before I go into a negotiation, before I go into anything, that I am prepared, that I have studied, that I have, you know, really covered all my bases to understand what could possibly be discussed, what could possibly be brought up, and that I have the answers to those questions. And it's unfair, Kwame. It is unfair that women, we have to work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good is what it is. But that is the reality. So I can either cry about it, or I can recognize that, and I can work actively to start breaking some of those really horrible prejudices. And the only way that I have found that I could do that is from within those structures.

Absolutely. And, yeah, one of the things that you're saying there is competence breeds confidence, right? So the more competent you are, the more you learn, the more you hone your skills and your craft, the more confident you're going to be. And remember, again, the whole point of this particular episode is mastering self advocacy. Something you have to do for yourself. And confidence is and emotion that allows you to take action, right? And if you're lacking in confidence, you're not going to take action, which means you're not going to advocate for yourself. So I think confidence is a great antidote for a lot of these things, or at least something that we can put into play to start to work against some of those barriers that we face. And so we already started to talk about this. Now that we're talking about actually taking action, let's move into the third section where we actually talk about how to do it effectively. So when we're thinking about self advocacy, what are the key things we need to keep in mind when it comes to doing it well?

So you talked about confidence, and it's so easy to say, be confident, go forth, carpe diem into the world and light it all on fire and have them see you. That's really hard. It's really hard to just have confidence. The first thing you gotta do is, if you're not confident, is fake it. Pretend you are. Totally fake it. Fake the confidence. I give you my blessing. Go forth into the world and fake the confidence. Because what you have to do is, it's a muscle you have to build. Confidence begins with self belief. So you need to completely alter your internal dialogue, right? And change it from saying, they're not going to, they won't, they'll this and this and this, negative. And change it to they must, they will, I must, I have to, I can, right? And it starts with your internal dialogue. And I catch myself all the time. I'm not like some, you know, highly evolved guru of self help knowledge. All the time I'm doubting myself. Oh, my God, they're gonna laugh at me. Oh, my God, they're not gonna. And I have to say, no, cut it out, stop. It's not if, it's when, right? If is not. It's not if that they do something if. When they'd listen to me. When they agree, when they accept, when they hear me. So it starts by just shifting your internal dialogue and really giving yourself those pep talks. Like, all right, stop thinking negative thoughts. Believe in yourself first. Right? Which sounds super corny. I know, I cringed when I said it. But you have to believe that you can do it. That's number one. Number two, how do you effectively do this? Is the one thing that women especially do a lot is apologize incessantly unnecessarily Stop. Right? I'm so sorry, but I can't. Why are you sorry that you can't? You have the same 24 hours in the day. You are a human. You need to eat, you need to sleep, you need to go to the bathroom. You need to do all these things. Why are you sorry that you can't do something? Don't apologize. You apologize when. When you've done something wrong, right? And when you do something wrong, apologize, okay? But apologize once and that's it. So you begin by not being always apologetic. And this is a really hard habit to break, by the way, for all of us, I think, men and women, because we're always conditioned, right, to say sorry. We're sorry for inconveniencing you. Why is it an inconvenience for you if I can answer an email at 10pm at night? Right? That goes back to me teaching you how to treat me. You can send me the email at 10pm doesn't mean you're going to get a response, right? And so that's how you start. And now in terms of advocating for yourself effectively, we talked a little bit about it earlier. Learn, right? Go into your workplace. And one of the things that I've always done is wherever I've worked, I found people that can do things really well that I can, even if it's completely unrelated to my job. If I find somebody's really good at something, I make it my point to learn from them. I'll pester them. If they won't teach me, I'll just like a creepy stalker, shadow them over their desk and try and absorb knowledge. But one of the biggest ways that you can advocate for yourself is by learning. Then another way in the workplace especially, is keeping track of the accomplishments that you've done, right? What are the great things that you have done? Keep track for it, right? Keep track of it. Now, another way also in that same vein of keeping track of your accomplishments is make your managers and your leaders aware that you're interested in being promoted, right? That you want to take on more responsibility, that you want to one day lead a team, that you want to have an enterprise client or what have you, right? They're not going to know unless you tell them. And then when you tell them, don't just say, hey, Kwame, by the way, one day I want to be CEO. Okay, great, Zveen. Right. That's fine. But what does that mean? You have to say, dear Kwame, I'm really excited to be in this role. I would eventually like to be in the position of X, can you help me understand what are the things I need to do to get there? What are the things I need to achieve? To qualify for a promotion, you have to gather information and put it on their radar that this is something you're interested in. If you don't know what the metrics are, how can you work towards it? Same thing we talk about in negotiation. If you don't know what the target is. Right. How are you going to know where you're going? You're just driving around aimlessly.

This is great. So many good things in there. Let's start off with the confidence aspect because that's something I've struggled with too. That's why the TED Talk in the book is finding confidence in conflict, because it doesn't make sense to give recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. If they're not confident, then they're not going to take action. So this is spot on. And so some resources for the listeners shouting out some previous episodes. So Maggie Palmer, that was released, I believe, in fall of 2020, talking about how to negotiate for your salary, she has an app called Pep Talk Her. So Pep Talk and then her. And essentially it's a brag box of all of your accomplishments that you keep in that app. So you can look at that before your difficult conversations in order to be more confident. And then we also have an episode with David Holman on how to improve your confidence and self belief. And he we have a really great conversation there. But you're spot on. It all starts with confidence. And again, sometimes you have to fake it. And people ask, how am I able to do these things? I'm like, if you knew how I felt before I did these things, you would be shocked. But a lot of times I borrow confidence from other people because I look at other people and then they have confidence in my ability to get things done. And then I say I respect that person and they think I can do it. Well, I trust them more than me. Let me do it, you know, so I'm going to go based on that.

That's right. And I think what's important that people remember is if you don't have confidence, if you don't advocate for yourself, nobody else is going to. It's really just you in your corner, honestly. Right. It's really just you. People can believe in you, Kwame, but unless you use that belief in yourself to fuel some sort of way forward, you're not going to move anywhere. Right? So, you know, the only person that's going to advocate for yourself is you. Right? It's you. So you can take a horse to water. Is that the saying? What's the saying? I'm just like making up proverbs now. If you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink, Right? So that, that's the lesson here. People can vouch for you, they can recommend you, they can refer you, but unless you yourself take that step, it's not going to come to any fruition. Nothing is.

Absolutely. It's been a pleasure as always. This has been fantastic. But before you go again, let the listeners know about Jobs mom and the podcast. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Kwame. It's always amazing to be here with you and I appreciate so much you shedding light on some really important, important issues for all of you that are listening. Mothers, parents, women, you visit Jobs mom. The URL is short because ain't nobody got time to remember anything longer than that. So Jobs mom, you can visit us. There's a job board, there's a career portal, there's a knowledge hub. There are services and, and support and tons and tons of content specifically designed to help women either re enter the workforce, advocate for themselves in the workforce, find recourse when they are trying to get hired or they're pregnant or they're suffering issues with their employers for maternity leave, for example, or all these issues that women face. And we're also highlighting employers that are really doing right by the women in their work, leading the charge and being inclusive and offering gender neutral parental leave and adoption support. And really, you're not going to have to breastfeed or pump in a closet somewhere. They have a proper facility for you. So we're really advocating for women on top of connecting them to Jobs, and that's at Jobs mom. And the podcast is Moms at Work. And you can hear me shake my fist like an, like an old man at the clouds in the sky on the podcast. It's Jobs Mom Podcast.

Fantastic, Zabeen. Thanks again, my friend. We really appreciate it.

Thank you, Kwame. Anytime.

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