The ‘Nice Person’ Trap: How to Set Firm and Healthy Boundaries – with Jamila Brown

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen to. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Camilla, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me, Kwame. It's such a pleasure to be here with you and your audience.

Yes, likewise, my friend. So feel free to get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I am a New Orleans native, born and raised. I spent most of my corporate career in retail working for some of the largest companies in the world, from Walmart to Champ Sports. Ross dressed for less in Dollar General through merchandising and operations and left corporate America in 2018 and started a career consulting company, the 5 Minute Career Hack, with two of my fellow previous coworkers at Roche, Dress for Less and Dollar General. And we started the organization back in about 2018, 2019. Started a podcast as well in late 2021 and just celebrated our 100th episode at the end of last year. So exciting for us there. I'm a former athlete also. I always like to share that because it does guide my speaking pod as well as the career strategy that I provide for individuals and organizations. I also coach at the high school level and have a travel team over the summer of young girls that I'm hoping to influence the next leaders of our next generation. So that's a little bit about me.

I love that. Now, you can't just leave out the fact that you're an athlete, but you don't tell us the sport. What's the sport?

Basketball. Basketball. Thank you. Yes. Basketball. That's my first love. Basketball. Yes.

Very cool. This is great. And there's a stat. I was reading Billie Jean King's biography and she said it's something like 90% of women in the C suite are former athletes.

Yes, that is a fact. Which is Phenomenal. And I think it's just because of the resiliency that's built in sports, whether that's basketball or any other sport. You're consistently failing fast and you get very used to that and the confidence level there. So when the numbers aren't aligned for women in the C suite, you're probably going up against a lot of adversity. So I admire all those women sitting in those positions because I know they had to go through a lot, a lot of no's, a lot of you're not good enough, if you will, and still fight through. And I think sports builds that for sure.

Absolutely. And that is a perfect segue into what we're going to talk about today, which is how to set boundaries. Because you don't make it to the top unless you are good at setting boundaries early, often and consistently. And one of the things that I love about your approach is that you don't just focus on a person's career just as a snapshot in the moment. You talk about the entire life cycle of an employee and an individual contributor. And so when we think about how to set boundaries, we shouldn't just think about it in terms of each individual occurrence. We should also think about it holistically as a career building strategy. So can you tell us a bit about the employee life cycle and how setting boundaries plays a role in that process?

Yeah, that's one thing that we've been very specific about at the five minute career hack. The employment life cycle is not just when you start a job and you end that job, whether by layoff, fired, or you quit and leave or retire even. The employment life cycle starts ultimately with your experience in your education, that resume that you put together to apply for the job, the interview process, the salary negotiation process, interviewing once you're onboarding, so all the training, all those computer based learning, everything that you have to do to then go do the job. And then lastly it's the exit strategy once you leave the job. That's the important entire employment life cycle. And at the five minute crack, we're, we firmly believe that setting boundaries happens throughout that entire process. A lot of times people think of setting boundaries when something has gone wrong and when someone's crossed a boundary, right. Or what you perceive to be a boundary for you that you don't care for. And that boundary at that point, it's now you're trying to, to retrain someone how to do something differently, how to interact with you differently. And that's very difficult to do. We're human Beings, we're creatures of habit. You show me how to treat you based upon how you're showing up to work in that interaction and what we coach people on and how we coach people is just to simply say, this is how I want to be communicated with. This is how I want to be addressed. This is the amount of hours I'm going to put in. Those are boundaries as well. These are the resources in the interview process is so important. What resources will I have to do this job? One of the things I learned early in my career, especially in retail, I took over a lot of tough assignments, fix this mess assignments, as I like to call them. And I didn't do a great job of saying these are the resources for me to be able to, that I will need to be able to fix this mess. And then had to go back, which is very difficult. Ask for additional payroll, ask for additional support and cross functional teams as well as individuals. Maybe I even needed additional managers for that to be able to truly fix it systemically. And by not setting those boundaries, it caused more workload for me, obviously more stress, and it ultimately led to burnout. And that is what we teach people. That's what I'm very laser focused on, is how you set those boundaries. Specifically throughout that entire process. If you're putting on your resume that I did 10 people's jobs in one, they're going to want you to do 10 people's jobs in one. And versus I was able to accomplish this through other people. So how you communicate very early on in the process, in the entire employment lifecycle is huge for setting boundaries and avoiding burnout.

Oh, this is great. The masterclass has started early. Yes, Jamila, I appreciate that. And let's, let's bring back a basketball metaphor here. Just sports and just life in general, it's easier to win if you started with a lead and maintained the lead rather than playing from behind. And it seems like that's what we're doing here when it comes to setting boundaries because this right here already is a paradigm shift, because tell me if I'm off on this, but it sounds like one of the challenges people have when it comes to setting boundaries is they begin the boundary setting process way too late in the process. And it could be a lot easier if you just start the process sooner.

Right. Whether it's sports or relationships that you're in with your significant other, your family members, siblings, parents, whomever you'll note and you can recall, you'll have testimonies that will tell you, Jamila, if You operate like this early. It's so much easier than to actually manage that relationship moving forward. However, if you then say, okay, I want this to be different, right? You're married, right? I want this to be different 10 years down the road after it's operated one way for so long, I might have actually have to go to counseling to. For us to be able to work on how that's going to go moving forward if I truly want this. Because we've built a structure, we've built a cadence, habits around us operating this way. Not to say that it can't happen, but it's tough. We're human beings, we like habit. Our brains are wired for habits. That's what keeps us alive, right? It are those habits that, that helps us to survive. So when you're looking to change those types of behaviors in relationship, it's very difficult for adults specifically, I would say even probably for kids to some degree. But they're a little bit faster, I'm gonna be honest, they're a little bit faster. Studies show because they're sponges, they don't have as much on their mental hard drive as we do. But I believe that the earlier the better.

I love this, and this is great because essentially what we're doing is we're being proactive in general. But what we have to do in order to have this proactive approach strategically to setting boundaries, we have to be able to anticipate and look into the future and recognize what potential problems could be coming down the pike that could be affecting us negatively. And let's just address the mindset first because a lot of people might be saying, well, you know, if it, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's not a problem. Now maybe, hopefully things turn around and I don't want to stir the pot because maybe I cause a problem when something, when it doesn't turn into a problem down the road. So for that person who is hesitant to be proactive in addressing these problems before they start, what advice would you have for that person? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Well, number one, I think it starts with, are you providing value that's indispensable? Are you providing value that's indispensable? Because if you're providing value that's indispensable, that can't be replaced, that's invaluable, you can make that request, you can set that boundary because it's going to cost more. I promise you. There's not many hiring managers that are sitting there saying, with a high performer that I want to go out there and find somebody else, I want to spend the time because I have all these other job responsibilities. I want to spend the time and I want to go hire someone else, train them, I want to interview, train them, get them going and hope they work out. There's no one out there saying that that's responsible for staffing if they've got a high performer. So if you're a high performer, if you're doing a great job in your role, then you have the space. But you have to believe, number one, you have to be doing it. And number two, you have to believe that you're creating that level of value. And if you are and you believe it, then you can ask for that conversation, those extra resources, the boundaries that you need to be effective in your professional and your personal life. Because sometimes life changes for you. And now maybe I need a slightly different schedule that supports my life so I can continue to be a high performer. And you have to trust that. And ultimately, if in fact it's slim chance, I promise you it's a slim chance. But if in fact they say no, number one, it didn't hurt you to ask. And number two, now you, the ball is in your court to decide if that's still what you want, if you still want to show up there not having the support, not having the clear boundary that you need. And is it worth cost wise, whatever that might be, financially, whether that's emotionally, mentally, whatever it may be, is it worth staying there? You get to make the decision. But if you never ask, it's just this thing in your head that continues to just cycle around. You're frustrated, you're mad at them, but you've never even and told them what you needed to give them the chance to say no or yes.

This is so good. And so, Jamila, as you were going through this, I was thinking about it from my perspective as CEO with a team and right now, everybody on my team is a high performer, which is great. And then as you started to list out what it would take, hiring people, interviewing people, getting benefits, setting set up and all that stuff, like, I became like, literally nauseous. Like, the thought of replacing a high performer and doing all of this and hoping that the next person could do the same thing is actually repulsive to me.

It's repulsive, right?

It's awful. And so really what that came down to is leverage. And it's so important to recognize the difference between power and leverage. So with power, this is something that comes from official levels of authority. So let's just say rank within my company. I'm CEO. There's nobody above me, so I have power and authority, but the team has leverage. I need them. And I love the fact that you hammered home on something that most people often overlook when it comes to this. It's just speaking to the empowered feeling that comes from recognizing that you have value. Leverage is strategic advantage. Everybody who is listening, if you're a high performer, you have strategic advantage. And if you're not a high performer, you need to become a high performer so you have more leverage and you can ask for more things. And when you recognize that value that you have, then you can advocate more assertively and with more confidence. And, and this last point, if you ask respectfully and negotiate effectively and you still don't get what you need, then you ask yourself internally, let me have a negotiation with myself. Is this sustainable? The answer might be no. And then you have that opportunity with that information to make another decision which might take you to another opportunity.

Absolutely. And those are the steps. You lined it out perfectly. Those are the exact steps. But you have to give yourself the chance and the other party at the negotiation table the chance to say yes or no. My motto that I've had since the day I picked up a basketball was, you dribble and you shoot and you hope for the best, but you have to take the shot. You have to take the shot.

And that's where most people fail, because they just don't take that shot. So I wanted to make sure that we hammered home just on the mentality side, because there are a lot of people who will listen to this and say, oh, yeah, absolutely right. This is correct. Still don't feel like doing it. It's that internal game that we have to master in order to actually take that shot. That's the next step. And that's where most people end up failing because they don't take that Step. Oh, you muted.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for catching that.

We'll edit it. Everything will seem really smooth.

This is good.

This is great. Okay, let's let. Now, since we're kind of, like chatting for a bit now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to switch it to talking about setting boundaries specifically for burnout. So that'll be our little transition. So I'll clap back into the team and. Cool. And this gives us a really great opportunity to talk about burnout more in particular, because I know the career wellness renewal program that you have is what's most popular because so many people are dealing with burnout. And I think what we could do with the remainder of the time is identify those things that often lead to burnout, and then we can talk about how to have those conversations to really fight that burnout process. So let's just start off by identifying the major causes of burnout in the workplace.

So you're going to question or are we going to just roll from here?

Yeah, let's just roll from there.

Yeah. Okay. So some of the major causes of burnout, just like we talked about in the employment life cycle, it's a holistic thing, right? But your life is not two functions. It's not your job and your life. They're both. They're one and the same. And teaching people through our career wellness program, we call Renew that, you have to think of your life in totality in the workplace and personally, and think you can separate them. That, to me, is where burnout starts, because you're in the workplace, functioning, doing what you have to do, making a living for you and your family, getting the paper, the paper chase, the grind, the hustle, whatever you want to call it. And if you believe that they're two separate entities, the first thing that will happen is the minute the pressure goes up in one area or the other, and I promise you, if you're listening, it will go up. As long as you're living and breathing, whether that's personally something will impact you or professionally something will impact you, or an additional ask or a restructure or something's going to happen in the workplace that's going to exude pressure on your life. And if you're operating with your personal life and your peripheral professional life thinking that they're somehow separate, the other one will influence the other and then put pressure on the other one. So if it happens in your professional life, and now I've got to spend more hours or I've got a difficult assignment or a Difficult boss or a restructure or whatever it may be, it will start to impact your personal life. And that's more often than not. The clients that come to us, that's where we start. That's the origin, is that this thought in our mind that they're somehow separate. And so we operate like, I'm going to be okay. I remember going through a divorce while I was in the workplace and at the exact same time. And for anyone that's in retail, they can empathize with me. I had to open up two brand new stores as a district manager at the exact same time. It was literally happening at the exact same stop at the exact same time. And the pressure in my personal life and my professional life at the same time, it was just like you would have thought the earth had landed on my back, right? And at the time I wasn't as educated in understanding that it was one and the same. So I was showing up to work thinking, oh, everything's great, I'm good, I'm getting this store together and coming home basically depressed, burnt out and couldn't, I mean, I couldn't do anything. I had to use every ounce of energy I had in the workplace. And the impact on me physically, my physical being at that time, right, Because I was burned out personally. And then ultimately professionally, the impact on my physical health was tremendous. It was tremendous. It was an incredible wake up call for me. But it started with this notion that they were two separate entities. What I should have done in that moment was one of them had to give because I couldn't do both. I shouldn't have done both. I either should have taken a leave of absence from my job or figured something out personally. I don't know what I could have done personally going through that. So it really had to be the job. But they're not separate, they're together. And we find that to be. The origin is that thought they're somehow separate and they're not. And that could be a situation with your kids. That could be a situation even with your parents. They might take ill or you have to take care of them. All of a sudden, whatever it may be in your personal life or professionally, is thinking that somehow they operate as two separate entities because it gives us a false sense of security that we can function when something major is happening in one or the other. That to me is the biggest thing when we get, finally get to the root because it takes a minute for people to get there that they realize, wow, I thought I could do all of that and Manage all of that. That's the biggest source that we've uncovered. More often than not, I wish I could say that it's just a bad boss or the toxic work environment. Yeah, that happens, and that is an opportunity, and it does cause burnout, but it's often because we haven't correlated who we are as a person to what environment is conducive for us to work in. Always comes back to that, connecting us personally to the job.

I love this. And really, I'll shout out my friend Rebecca Zung. She has a podcast, negotiate your best life. That's really what it sounds like we're doing here with this. We're negotiating our best life. Because it's funny, as you said, that I'm like, that's true. And it should be obvious. Why do I not act as if it's obvious? And I think that's so interesting, too, because we have to explicitly articulate this so we could have it clearly in our minds. Because I can think about times where I say, oh, man, work is hard. Let me just. Let me just keep on muscling through it at home and pretending like there's not going to be an impact. Oh, home is hard. Work will be my refuge. And I'll keep on muscling through it without making any adjustments and just not recognizing I'm only one person. That's one person, right?

One person. That's it. That's such a good point. That's such a good point. And then when you realize that you're just one person, you said, you know, mentally, you have to cognitively understand that. And then I think you have to say it out loud, like you just did. Right? And bring it to your conscious mind into reality and then start moving accordingly because you. I mean, we all know it, like it's obvious, but understanding it cognitively and saying it out loud and then moving accordingly so that your calendar starts to display that. So that how you interact in these meetings. To meet. To meet. Right. Which one of these can we cut out? Right, let's be clear. I know everybody hates some more of this. Let's tag on these emails. So I now have 3,000. Because 10 people had to show their input and get their shine on in the email. In the email sharing, whatever that might be. Let's cut some of those things out and let's save each other some time, too. Right? An effective way to. Just a couple. Couple tips on some boundaries. Right? Yeah, absolutely.

And here's the thing. It doesn't happen by accident. You can't Just have this realization, like you said, we have to act accordingly. And so I think about life in many ways like a garden. We don't just get dirt and then throw some sleeves down and then just watch and assume everything's going to go well. The parts of the garden that I like, I need to take care of it, I need to nurture it. There are weeds that are going to grow, and it's going to be very easy for those weeds to grow. I need to be proactive about removing those weeds, and it'll be easier for me to remove them when they are smaller. Right. And so this is how we can now focus our negotiation skills and difficult conversation skills. This is how we start to have these conversations about setting boundaries. Because once we start to identify these current problems and potential problems now, through the art of conversation and negotiation, we can start to build the life that we design.

Absolutely. It's such a great analogy. I've been reading Dr. Anita Phillips book the Garden within, and she references that as the, obviously as the center of the book. Our hearts are our garden and understanding we have to tend to that internally and then externally, we'll bear the fruit that we're looking for. And to your point, you know, tending vigilant, vigilantly to that garden by setting your boundaries, by understanding the people that you want to work with and want to be around in your circle, your sponsors, your coaches, mentors, whomever those are, which are so important in that process because sometimes they can spot the soil isn't right too, for you if they're the right person. So all of those things are also equally as important as around, around burnout. Right. We weren't put on this earth to be alone. We were meant to be in community. And that's part of going through that entire burnout cycle, is understanding that you're probably going to need support.

Yeah.

If you want to get through it in a way that doesn't leave you beat up too bad. And ultimately, maybe it can help to help you to accelerate it, because more people have been through it than not. So if you're listening and you think you're alone and you're having these feelings, you're not. I promise you, more people are experiencing, whether they can put a name to it or not, more people are experiencing it than not experiencing at this point, to me, it's an epidemic.

Yeah, 100%. And I think also too, that's a target for our negotiation skills. You might not get help unless you ask for help. You might need a sponsor at work. You might need a mentor who's within the. Your organization or a manager, somebody advocating for you because that gives you more leverage, a bit more political capital, when somebody else is advocating you for you in the same way. So that's, that's a part of the negotiation, too. And let's think about those people who are listening and saying, okay, so I'm behind. I have not been proactive, and there are specific people that I have in mind where I need to set a boundary retroactively. And it's been days, months, weeks, or maybe even years. And I've been letting this behavior happen and nothing has changed. So now I have to have a conversation. And they're probably going to say, well, if it was such a big deal, why didn't you mention it before? So what advice do you have for somebody who's finding themselves in that situation?

The first thing, and this is something that I tell myself every day, number one, you are exactly where you're supposed to be. If you're listening, you've already taken the first step and you've invested in yourself by listening to this podcast. That's the first step. And you're aware that this is resonating with me. Something we've said today is resonating with you, and you need to take action. Right? You've already taken the first step. You're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're not alone. And there are people there, myself included, that can. They're here to support you. The second thing I would say to the person that feels like, okay, I am, I'm drowning. I feel like the water level is to the point where I'm taking on too much water and I'm going to drown. Right. If that's what you're feeling, number one, I always recommend it. If you feel this is the a little bit bigger than I'm just experiencing a little burnout, I recommend you seek professional help if that's what you need, number one. Because sometimes I feel like it's a very thin line between what I could personally do for you as a career coach and what you may need more professional help on. And that's okay, too. Trust me. Big, big step there. I think that the other thing I would tell someone that feels like, what can I do in the workplace specifically to start to set those boundaries, Schedule a face to face. A face to face conversation with the person that you need to schedule that with. Now, notice I didn't say your boss, because that first conversation may not be with your boss. It could be that mentor, it could even be a peer or someone that you have a level of trust with inside of your organization that you feel can help you with the talking points or the best entry point to the conversation that you then need to have with your boss. Now, if you have that relationship with your boss and you feel confident being able to go in there and do that just right away, go for it. If not, if you're feeling like a little anxiety or a little nervousness, a little anxiousness, that's okay. Have that initial conversation with someone that you have a level of trust with that can help you go through those talking points and the approach, the angle that you need to take on the job. I think that's so important for when you do have the most important conversation. So that's the advice I would give to someone, is to help prepare you so that you have you enter the conversation the right way, set up and everything, ask the right questions, state the right objectives, and walk away feeling confident that you, number one, had the conversation, because that's super important. And second, that you're going to start to move towards the outcomes that you're looking for for your life, personally and professionally.

I love this because we started off essentially with an internal negotiation, ending with an external negotiation. So we're talking first, recognizing where exactly where we're supposed to be. I think normalizing this situation is important because otherwise you say, oh, this is terrible, I'm in such a bad position. And then we take that disempowered mindset into the conversation. But recognizing it has to start somewhere. It's starting now, and that's exactly where you need to be is powerful. Seeking professional help is powerful, too. Just recognizing that sometimes we need some assistance and that's. And there's no shame in that. And I think there can be a lot of stigma associated with it. And so especially, especially when it comes to men and mental health, too. So I just encourage you to say, if you don't like the word therapist, it's a mental coach. Call it, you know, whatever you need to say, you know, but because athletes, I mean, we have sports psychologists to improve peak performance. I don't know why. We just assume that us as professionals are performing at our peak without having that type of assistance. So I think about it in terms of a competitive advantage. And then lastly, that, that meeting, I like the fact that we talked about it being face to face, but getting it on the calendar, schedule it, schedule it, schedule it, get it there. And then really, once we're in the conversation, it's just standard negotiation. You state what you need, you give your data to substantiate it. The last three weeks I've worked 78 hours and then 63 hours, and then I have all sorts of responsibilities that are coming on my plate that are outside of my job description. Key word to use for your employer is this is not sustainable. Oh, it's not sustainable. If you're saying it's not sustainable, that means it cannot be sustained. At some point this will break and then I'll need to hire another high performer. I don't want to do that. And so that triggers a sense of urgency that often is missed because it might just be in their mind like, oh, this is inconvenient. Sorry. But if it's like, no, this is an existential threat to my continued employment in this establishment, then it's like, wait a second, we need to do something right now.

Right? That's good. I love that. That is so good. Not sustainable, man. Yeah, he just gave y' all a bar right there.

That's right. That is right. And with the time we have left, I know we have one more bar to drop. Before you go, can you let the listeners know again about the podcast and the workshops and how you can work with people too?

Yes, the podcast, 5 Minute Career Hack podcast that stem from wanting to give individuals bite sized chunks of career development that you can get five, six minutes. Sometimes I go a little long, but about five minutes every week you can get some individual development and you can find that anywhere. You listen to podcasts as well as on YouTube. We stream every Monday and Thursday. And then as far as our workshops, any organizations, individual, small, big and large. We work with Fortune 500 companies on down to, you know, small organizations of less than 10. We are here to support you and your individual development needs for your organization. The best investment you can make is in your people. And our Renew Career Wellness workshop is our most sought after and highly referred workshop that we provide to organizations. And so if you know of an organization or a team of people that are looking for that development to invest in their people, we're here to do that.

Amazing. Jamila, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you for having me, Kwame. And all the best to everything that you're doing. It's incredible work and I'm always in awe of the guests and everyone that you have on your podcast as well.

Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode and with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.