The One Attribute You’re Missing That Separates Good from Great Negotiators with Navy SEAL Rich Diviney

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast.

In the world, where we teach you.

How to make difficult conversations easier while.

Getting more of what you want in the process.

Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts.

We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and.

Leadership skills that are crucial in both.

Business and and in life.

Whether you're closing a deal, managing a.

Team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything.

Provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality.

So if you're ready to transform your.

Conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything.

Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify.

Or wherever you love to listen to. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Rich, thanks for joining us today.

Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yes, and it is a pleasure to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, sure. Well, I'm an author and entrepreneur. However, that all started because I spent 21 years in the US Navy as a Navy SEAL. I was an officer. I went into the seal teams in 1996 and then retired in 2021. I came out of the Navy and I'd obviously spent so much time with some of the highest performing teams on the planet. And I got really intrigued as to what it takes to build, maintain, and make better high performing teams. And so that's really the crux of the work we've been doing since coming out of the military is helping teams and businesses and individuals become more high performing and better off.

Incredible. And thank you for your service. Of course, you're right. The work that you've done, you are dealing with elite people, performers. And I know you have an incredible book that's already out and a book that is going to be out the day this comes out. So can you tell us about both of those books? Because I think that'll do a great job of setting the stage for the rest of the conversation too.

Of course. Of course. Yeah. So the first book I wrote was centered around this idea of performance and what are those things that cause our performance in not only everyday life, but especially in stress, challenge, and uncertainty. And I think what really intrigued me, going through Navy SEAL training and of course, being a Navy SEAL and going to combat, was the ability to understand your own performance at your most raw. In other words, when the. You know, what is hitting the fan and. And everything steeped in uncertainty and chaos. That ability to understand yourself is a superpower. And part of understanding that self is to understand the qualities that every one of us brings to the table in terms of our own performance. Now we talk about attributes. These are the qualities that let us know that we have what it takes to do what's supposed to be done versus skills, which are those things we know how to do or train to. And so the first book really centers around the difference between skills and attributes, because what I found was that in the military, but also in businesses and teams, there's a huge focus on skills. And skills don't always tell us the story of performance. In fact, knowing how to do the job is sometimes completely different than having what it takes to do the job. And so this was kind of. I'll tell you a quick story. This was. This hit me pretty heavily when I was talking to an older seal. He had been an instructor years ago, and he said that there was a story about a kid who showed up to Navy SEAL training. And he shows up one day, walks into the instructor's offices, and he says, I want to be a Navy seal. And the instructor says, okay, fine, but you have to take a swim test. Like, it says, okay. So they take him out to the pool. It's an easy test. It's 50 meters. So 25 meters to one end, 25 meters back to the other end. Anyway, this gets all ready to go. He jumps in the pool, and he immediately sinks to the bottom of the pool. And at the bottom of the pool, he begins to walk across the bottom of the pool to one end. He touches one end. He walks across the bottom of the pool, back to the other end. He comes up, he's gasping for air, nearly drowning. And the instructor looks at him and says, what the heck are you doing? And the kid who's still trying to catch his breath, looks at the instructor and says, I'm sorry, instructor, I don't know how to swim. And at that point, the instructor pauses, and he looks at the kid and says, that's okay. We can teach you how to swim. And so the question is, why does the instructor say that? The instructor said that because he knew if this kid had the qualities, the attributes to show up to Navy SEAL training without knowing how to swim, he had everything inside of him that we needed for him to be a Navy seal. Teaching him the skill of swimming was going to be the easy part. And so I began to bifurcate These terms and create an understanding that yes, skills are fine, but skills don't always tell the whole story. And if we focus our performance on just on skills, we're missing a huge part of the performance picture in that of attributes.

That's powerful. That's powerful. That's a story I will never forget. Because first of all, it is the first documented like story I've heard of somebody actually swimming like a hippo. That's impressive. The second thing is, you're absolutely right. When it comes to skills, we really do focus on that. And I think it's very easy to focus on that because a lot of times if we look at somebody who has what it takes, and we know that they have what it takes because they've done what is required, we can often focus on the skills, but not what lies behind the skills. That puts the skills into action and actually makes it operable. And I think with negotiation and difficult conversations, that's something that can be really disempowering and confusing for a lot of people when they start because they're saying, okay, what do I need to do to negotiate? Or more specifically, how do I negotiate? And you Google that, you put it into chatgpt. You can get exactly what it is that you need to do and say. But then you find yourself in a high stakes conversation and for some reason you cannot do what or say those things when it actually matters most. So I think this, this focus on attributes versus skills is incredibly important and incredibly overlooked.

Well, and I, and I, I agree. And let me just. I know we, we talked about this before. Let me just quickly define the terms for the audience here. And, and so skills are not inherent to our nature. In other words, none of us are born with the ability to ride a bike or throw a ball or drive a car. We're trained to do those things. We're taught to do those things. Skills also direct our behavior and known in specific environments. Here's how and when to throw a ball or ride a bike. And then because skills are very easy to see, they're very easy to assess, measure and test, you can see how well anybody does any one of those things. You could put scores around skills. You can put statistics around skills, you can put skills on resumes. Which is why we often get seduced by skills when we're picking teams or hiring or even performance evaluating. The problem is that skills don't tell us how we're going to show up in stress, challenge and uncertainty. Because in an unknown environment, it's very difficult, if not Impossible to apply a known skill. So this is when we lean on attributes. Attributes, on the other hand, are inherent to our nature. In other words, all of us are born with levels of patience, situational awareness, adaptability. Now you can certainly develop attributes over time and experience, but you can see levels of attributes in very small children. Anybody who has kids or has even hung out with kids will agree with me when I say there are one and a half year olds who are patient and there are one and a half year olds who are impatient. Okay, so there's a nature nurture element to attributes. Attributes don't direct our behavior. Attributes inform our behavior. They tell us how we're going to show up to an environment. So for example, my son's levels of perseverance and resilience informed the way he showed up when he was learning the skill of riding a bike and he was falling off a dozen times doing so. And then finally, because they're difficult to see, they're very difficult to measure and assess and test. How do you assess someone's levels of adaptability or patience? But they show up the most viscerally and visibly during times of stress, challenge, and uncertainty. And the idea is, if we're not counting this in our performance picture, we're missing a huge, huge, if not most important part of the performance picture. Because everything about high performance and high performing teams is this idea that we not only perform when things are going great, we also perform when things are not going great. And that idea, performing when things are not going great means we're performing an uncertainty challenge of stress, which means we're leaning on these attributes.

Incredible. Incredible. And now when it comes to specifically tough conversations, because I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Rich, but I figured that there might be some tough conversations that happen. As a Navy seal, what are some of the attributes that are required to be effective in those conversations under pressure?

Well, I think, you know, obviously, as you know and your audience would know, every human being is different, every interaction is different. But I think part of, part of the ability to navigate a difficult conversation is a, the, the emotional awareness. That's an attribute to understand and try to read what emotions are coming from the other human being, but also be able to manage and control one's own emotions. That's emotional awareness. Empathy adds into that. Can I feel, to some extent, can I feel what the other person's feeling? Humility. I'm going to come into a conversation with a open mind. Open mindedness is another attribute. I think patience is an attribute. I would imagine is pretty important for negotiation because you want to be able to pause and lean and kind of let the conversation go where it needs to go. Adaptability, I would imagine. I mean, there are 41 attributes. You and I could probably pick out at least half of them. But I think that's probably a good start in terms of some of these attributes. And one thing I want to just let your audience know when it comes to these attributes. And we talk about 41 in the book, we talk about 25. The work we do now with our assessment and our and our businesses and teams, we have 41 attributes. Every single one of us has all 41. We all have all of them. The difference in each one of us are the levels to which we have each. So if you take adaptability, for example, and seven is high and one is low, I would be about a level six on adaptability. That means when the environment changes around me outside of my control, it's fairly easy for me to go with the flow and roll with it. Someone else might be a level three on adaptability. The same thing happens to them. It's difficult for them to go with the flow and roll with it. They are still adaptable because all human beings are. There's just more friction there. So if you were to kind of line up these attributes on a wall like dimmer switches, all of us would have different dimmer switch settings. And that starts to speak to our own unique individual performance. And the other way you can think about this, because I love the analogies I think of human beings like automobiles, okay? But some of us are Jeeps, some of us are SUVs, and some of us are Ferraris. And there's no judgment there because the Jeep can do things the Ferrari can't do and the Ferrari can do things the Jeep can't do. But if we don't lift our hood and figure out what engine we're running with, some of the friction in our lives might be because we've been a Jeep trying to run on a Ferrari track this whole time or a Ferrari trying to run on a Jeep track. So understanding our very unique set of attributes and how we prioritize these attributes in our behavior starts to show us exactly why and how we perform the way we do. And it's fascinating.

It is. It's incredibly fascinating. And I think also just knowing these attributes helps us to develop a level of self awareness that empowers us to develop the attributes. And this actually reminds me of one of the things I realized when I was coaching people and doing trainings and negotiating. One of the differences between an expert negotiator and a novice negotiator is that an expert negotiator will utilize the skills that are required to be successful and they will continue to utilize them until they are successful. Right. But somebody who is more of a novice negotiator, they might utilize it for about seven minutes and then they break down.

That's right, yeah. Yeah.

And so when we think about developing these attributes like patience or resilience, especially developing under pressure, how do we go about developing these attributes? Because they don't seem as concrete as a skill.

So there's a couple different things we can do. We can either develop attributes that we're low on or even tone down attributes that we're high on, or we can dial up or dial down attributes. Okay, so why do I say this? Because, first of all. Well, let me just go into developing an attribute. If you want to develop an attribute you're low on, it takes three things. First, it has to. You have to know you're low on it. Second, and this is really important, you have to have a reason, motivation or need to develop it. Why do I say that? It's because. Just because you're low on an attribute does not mean you need to develop it. In fact, it's likely that you're being low on that attribute is exactly why you're successful in what you do. I always say the stand up comic with too much empathy is going to be a lousy stand up comic. So you have to look at an attribute. And if you were to take the assessment, for example, you'd have your attributes ranked from 1 to 41. So your top five and your bottom five. Your success is as relevant to your top five as it is your bottom five. In other words, you're successful because of your bottom five and because of your top five. Okay, so we have to understand there's no judgment in these attributes. It's really how they map out. Now, all that being said, we go through life and there are times in life where there's ways that our top attributes serve us and our bottom attributes serve us. And there's ways that our top attributes don't serve us and our bottom attributes don't serve us. So in other words, if we find. So one of my good friends, he just took the assessment. His number one attribute was humor. That was his very number one attribute, which is of course phenomenal. We all love funny. But I told him, I said, I said, are there times where humor as your Number one attribute doesn't serve you. He's like, oh yeah, there are. I have to dial that down sometimes because I'm in an environment where the joke I want to tell is not going to go off very well. So in some cases, you may have to dial down attributes. In other cases, say you're low on patience. Well, when you go home, you have kids, you're going to need to dial up your patience. Okay? So there's ways you need to dial up. So at any attribute you're high or low on, you can dial up or dial down. It just takes deliberate, conscious thoughts. The way these attributes stack behaviorally is how we act without thinking. Okay, so that's one thing. The second thing is, yes, you can develop an attribute. In other words, you can take an attribute you're low on and just practice, practice, practice and get higher on it. So you need to of course, have those first two things. You're low on it. Second one is you need to have a need desired motivation. The third one's the most important. You have to go find environments that test and tease and develop that attribute. It's going to feel uncomfortable. So if you want to develop your patients, for example, you have to go find environments that test and tease and develop your patients. Whatever that looks like for you. It could be I'm going to deliberately drive in traffic or I'm going to pick the longest line in the grocery store stand. I always say have kids. Having kids will develop patients. But whatever that is, you have to go find those environments. You can do that with any attribute. But I'm just saying we don't necessarily have to. In some cases we might just have to dial up or dial down. Or here's where it really gets cool. Teaming allows you to actually be low on an attribute and have someone else who's high on the attribute. And now you team beautifully. Okay? My wife, I, we've been married for 23 years. We consider ourselves a high performing teen. We lived a war together. We have two teenage boys, we're happily married. She is low on patience. She's impatient. Okay? I am high on patience. Now that's worked beautifully for us in our marriage of 23 years because when patience is required, I step up. When impatience is required, she steps up. Her impatience has sometimes prevented me from taking too long on a decision or procrastinating. My patience has sometimes prevented her from moving too quickly on a decision or sending the email too quickly. Right. So, so we can start looking at if we're low, it may not need or require development. We might just need to make sure we're teaming in a way that allows us to optimally perform.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and work workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Oh, this is brilliant. This is brilliant. And I love this because it's funny. I'm married, been married for 14 years. We have two kids. And when you were saying we need to test this in an environment, I said, well, I think I need to volunteer at a daycare because I don't know about you, Rich, but I thought I was patient. And then I had kids and I realized in that environment I tend to struggle. So this is great. I think this is empowering for so many different ways. It's empowering because it allows us to recognize that these attributes can lead to success, they will lead to success and we can get better in these attributes. And also there are some times where we don't need to get better and it might not serve us to get better.

Right. Or sometimes just to get, get worse at it for a little bit. I mean, I have to dial down my humor or dial down my attribute because in this environment it's not going to be serving me the way it needs to. It's a fascinating concept.

Absolutely. And I love the fact that you have an assessment listeners. We will link to the assessment and Rich has given us a discount code too. So I appreciate that. I think what makes this assessment stand apart when you compare it to something like CliftonStrengthsFinder. I remember when I got the CliftonStrengths Finder, it had, you know, 32 things, you know, skills, whatever it happens to be. And then those things at the bottom it kind of insinuated or at least not addressed directly that, hey, the fact that those things are at the bottom is not great. Like, that's not, that's not good about it. And I was thinking, man, I don't want, yeah, yeah, things are at the bottom for a reason. But I think this gives us a really interesting look at like true and valuable and optimized diversity of thought too.

Right.

Because when we are building up our team, we want to make sure that we're surrounding ourselves with people who can be themselves in a way that optimizes the performance of the team. Because when I tell people, when I'm hir, last thing I want is more Kwamis, more people whose head in the sky and not responding to emails. That's not what we need. That allows people to be authentic. And now when we're thinking about making this team, comprising a team, because I like thinking about the dynamics of teams here too, as leaders, how do we start to assess the attributes of our team members and start to build our team in a way that is optimized for peak performance?

Yeah. So every team. So the first thing we have to do is we have to understand that every team, every organization has its own unique set of attributes that define, defines top performance in that team. So in other words, the list of attributes that define a great Navy SEAL team, that list of attributes are to look different than the attributes that the list that defines a great negotiating team or teachers team or sales team. So the first, the first objective is to figure out what that list looks like for your team. That's something we help people do in terms of looking at their culture, looking at their value system, helping them determine what that list looks like. Then you begin to look at the people on your team. You can use the assessment. Of course, you can also use those times of uncertainty, challenge and stress, because every team has them. And they don't have to be super traumatic. They can just be a rough day at the office. But it's in those rough, challenging times that you start to see the real people bubble up. And you start to see, okay, well, look, Bob over there wasn't very adaptable, but Sally was super adaptable. So Sally was. Everybody was kind of leaning on Sally during that. Adaptable. However, Sally's also a little bit impatient, whereas Bob is very patient. So when Sally started to move too fast on a few things, Bob was able to step in and say, hey, let's slow this down so we can actually start to think about and look at our performance way differently. And what I love about and why it's. I think it's been successful for us and for teams is because it takes judgment out of the picture. We are no longer looking at people and saying, hey, this person is a low performer or a, whatever you name it, because they're not doing this. Now we look and say, Wait a second. Now I understand why this person behaves the way they do. And in fact, I can see strength in some of the things that they're doing that I'm not. A lot of times our frustration with other people is because they're low on an attribute that we're high on. And by the way, their frustration with us is because they're high on an attribute that we're low on. You know, but instead of looking at judgmentally, now we can look at it in terms of teaming. It's why my wife and I, I can look at her impatience and say, man, I sometimes really need her impatience. She can look at my patients and she can say, sometimes I really need his patience. So it takes judgment out of the picture, which makes a team perform much more efficiently and much more rapidly and in a higher capacity.

Oh, man, I agree 100%. And I know we, we have about 10ish minutes left. And I want to focus on resilience here in particular, because one of the things I've observed in a lot of negotiations is that the emotional stability and the emotional resilience is lacking. And a lot of times there's a lot, there's outsourcing of blame to the other party or to the circumstances where you say, hey, I would have performed perfectly had the circumst not been so difficult. And as somebody who has served in war and been a Navy seal, I can recognize that most likely having your performance dictated by circumstances not the best thing for safety.

Well, it's not. I mean, and, but let's talk about. Before we get into resilience, let's talk about accountability as an actor.

Okay, yeah, let's do that.

I think it's an important thing. Accountability is basically ownership. That's what it is. And one thing I think we have to understand about accountability is it's the ability to say, hey, I have culpability and I have ownership. Now, obviously, there's a very genuine nature to accountability. It's why we look for accountability in those that we trust and those that we choose as our leaders. Because anybody who's always pointing a finger and blaming others, we tend not to look at as, oh, I'm going to follow that person, because eventually that finger is going to point at us. So, but here's a really cool thing about accountability and something that we knew in the SEAL teams and I, I hammer home all the time. Accountability is also a way that someone can take control of an environment. Okay? In other words, if you say, hey, I own this, suddenly you automatically Put yourself in the driver's seat and in the position of creating a solution. As soon as we place blame or point fingers, we are throwing ourselves in the backseat of the car and letting the car go wherever it wants. And so accountability in our world, and I think any high stakes world, is the fact that, hey, whether or not it's even true, I'm going to own this. Because by owning it, I'm going to take control of it. And I can now start to shape the narrative. I remember I was commanding officer of a SEAL team. I was commander of a bunch of platoons. But in any of those capacities, there were times where something would happen and ostensibly you could basically make a really good argument that none of it was my fault, I had nothing to do with it. However, I very deliberately took ownership of it because by doing so I could then take control of it and I can begin to steer the narrative. So I think any great negotiator understands that it's their level of being able to steer and control the conversation, which means they are no longer placing blame on anybody. I would imagine the best negotiators on the planet never place blame. It's always on them. It's like, hey, this didn't go well because I wasn't able to steer it, because that's the whole business of negotiation. So that's one thing. In terms of the ownership of it, I think when we talk about resilience, it's a really important term. And I think resilience, we have to understand it's a little bit different. It's different than perseverance. We often get those conflated. Perseverance is, I get knocked down seven times, I get up eight times. Like, every time I get knocked down, I keep coming, keep coming. It's the Rocky Balboa effect. That's perseverance. Resilience is when I get knocked down or knocked off baseline. How quickly and efficiently can I get back to baseline? This also happens when good things happen. In other words, something great happens and I'm on cloud nine and I'm resting on my laurels and everything's groovy. How quickly and efficiently can I get back to baseline? It's that rubber band that when you stretch, then you let go, it goes back to its original shape. Why does this matter? It matters because these attributes can live independently of each other. In other words, I've worked with high performers who are very high on perseverance and low on resilience. What does that look like? It looks like someone who's Burning out. Okay. Because they will keep going, keep going, keep going. And they are not able to come back to baseline. And so I think in high stakes environments we have to understand, yes, perseverance, great, I'll just keep coming. It doesn't matter what happens. I'm going to keep coming. But if we are not focusing on the ability to be resilient and get back to baseline, we will eventually spin out and spiral down and burn out.

This is incredible because now in my mind, I'm thinking about the Rocky movies. Rocky with perseverance and no resilience would have been a horrible movie to watch.

Right?

It's like, please stop the fight.

That's right.

Stop the movie.

It wouldn't have been an hour long. It probably been five minutes or 10 minutes. It would have been after the first fight, basically.

Right? Oh, this is great. Because. And I really appreciate you redirecting the conversation there too, because I'm recognizing now that accountability can be a really strong foundation for both resilience and perseverance. Because when you're saying to yourself, no, I can take control of this situation. This is my responsibility to do better, I think that's a really strong foundation for those two other attributes of perseverance and resilience.

A hundred percent. And oh, by the way, I'm going to take responsibility and deliberately go and do something that gets myself back on track. I'm going to go deliberately spend time with my kids. I'm going to go deliberately go for that run in the woods, and we go deliberately, go pray or meditate or whatever that is to make sure we get that rubber band back to where it needs to be. That's something we need to take ownership of as well. And the best highest performers always do.

Yeah. Okay, now, Rich, let's create a little scenario here. So let's think of us in a really high performing team. So you as a Navy seal, you're leading a team and you're trying to coach and lead them in a high pressure scenario. Tons of difficult conversations happening in that situation and the person is offering resistance. They're not getting on board, they're not getting in line. And your job is to make sure that they do what is required in order for the team to be successful in that situation. How would you approach it in a way that demonstrates both accountability, resilience and perseverance in the moment so you can still perform at a very high level despite the amount of stress you're under?

Yes. Well, let me, let me first admit that very rarely happened to the SEAL team. So, you know, because you just don't. You're at such a high level that the resistance people are already on board. They're ready to go. I mean, the. There's no. I did not have to worry about motivating people, and in many cases, I had to worry about holding people back because people were super motivated. Right. So. But I don't. I'm not going to dodge the question. I think it's a really valuable question and pertinent. And the idea is, in those cases where I've had to do this, I think the first thing that's important is you have to approach that person with empathy. So, in other words, why might this person be feeling this resistance? Empathy is a hugely powerful emotion. People think it's kind of this soft thing and kind of fluffy and whatever you want to call it. But empathy is a superpower when you're able to actually get into the space of another human being. I mean, again, I don't have to talk to. I don't have to tell people who negotiate this, because that's what it is. Can I empathize in a way that can I understand what this person's going through? Can I then allow for that person to understand an optic that's coming from themselves? In other words, how might their participation benefits themselves and more importantly, those around them? Almost every human being wants to be accepted. They want to be loved. They want to be looked at and appreciated. And so if someone can understand that what they do, their actions are actually going to be beneficial to those around them, whether it be their family, their teammates, or whatever. Typically you can start getting them on board. The other thing that I would do is I, in that whole empathy process is I listen to what they. To what they're saying. You know, resistance and frustration and things. There's a reason behind that. And if I'm not able to open my ears first before opening my mouth, then I'm not going to get that perspective. I'm not going to be able to get even close to empathy. So sometimes people just want to be heard. I've had situations where someone's just a loud, boisterous person who's objecting, and I. I just let them go for a little while. And once they go, they're like, okay, I'm. I'm good. I'm ready to go. Because all they wanted to do is be heard, you know, so. So I think empathy, humility, listening. And then as you do that, can you see if you can get them to understand it from perspectives that are larger than themselves so that they can actually feel. I mean, it always feels good to help other people. And if you can get that happening, it'll. It'll help a situation like that.

This is powerful, Rich. This is powerful because I think what is most encouraging and inspiring about this is that the fundamentals of negotiation and difficult conversations are universal. You might need to flex in terms of culture and circumstance and situation, but at the end of the day, we are all people dealing with more or less the same thing. And so what I'm finding, and I'd love to get your take on this before we wrap up, is when it comes to these really, really high stakes conversations that happen under incredible amounts of pressure, it's not that the way you necessarily navigate the conversation needs to shift. It's the amount of strength, resilience, perseverance that you have. You need to be strong enough to apply the fundamentals under duress for them to work in that situation 100%.

And I think the, this idea of adaptability and flexibility. So one of my favorite martial arts is aikido. I'm not a, I'm not an aikido. I don't practice aikido and I think it's a beautiful martial art. I'm not sure how efficacious is in say the UFC ring. However, it's a beautiful thing to watch. And the founder of aikido, Moriha Yeshiba, has a great book that, well, he had wonderful philosophy. His life is phenomenal to read about, but his philosophy of aikido stems from this idea of being like water and flowing and flexing and using and ga. Using someone else's energy to guide their own pathway. And so I think all of these high stakes conversation is really about understanding how to use someone's energy and flex and flow and be fluid with that. To do that, you need open mindedness and you need humility. You need to be empathetic. You need to understand that, hey, if I can get this person flowing and in their flow, change their direction in a natural way. You can do this physically, you can do this verbally. But we all know that if you come at something, you know, head to head, that's going to stop everything. It just, you know, obviously sometimes that's necessary, I think in extreme cases. But if you are literally trying to negotiate or have a tough conversation, bring people along. You don't start by going head to head and stopping and hitting head on. You have to be in that fluid, adaptable mindset.

Incredible, Rich. This has been so so helpful, so empowering. I really appreciate you, appreciate your service and the work that you've done. And before you go, can you please listeners know about your first book, your second book, and how they can get in touch?

Yeah. Well, the first book is called the 25 hidden drivers of Optimal Performance and you can find that on Amazon and theattributes.com is our website. The second book which is out now, you're going to love, it's called Masters of Uncertainty. It is a step by step guide on how to become as an individual or as a team, a master of uncertainty. Which is really how I defined, I always define the Navy SEALs. It was never about the skydiving or the shooting or the scuba diving. It was about the fact that we were individuals and teams that could drop into deep chaos and complexity and still perform. And there's reasons why we can do that. In the book, it's a shorter book, I outline exactly what you need to know a about your neurology and your physiology, but also things you need to know about yourself. Obviously number one attributes and then things like identity and objective. But it's a step by step book and that's out now and it can be, it's available on Amazon as well. So check that out.

Amazing. Rich, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. We'll do it again hopefully.

Oh yeah, for sure.

Cool.

For sure, man. That was great. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more.

I'll catch you later.