The Pitfalls to Avoid in Salary Negotiations with Vanessa Gaboleiro

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.

All right, I am really excited about this episode because I have my good friend Vanessa Gabalero on the show, and she's going to talk to us about how to negotiate your salary and a lot more. So, Vanessa is a talent acquisition manager, and she has years of experience negotiating salary offers. She's also building a side business where she helps women in their 20s and 30s find their voice after divorce and as they start to rebuild their lives and become not only financially independent, but most importantly, emotionally powerful. So it's a really unique business, and I encourage you to reach out to Vanessa if that speaks to you. Here are a few things that I want you to focus on as we go through the interview. First, we discuss the important differences between using a staffing agency and applying directly with a company or trying to advance within the same company. We also talk about the major pitfalls to avoid when negotiating your salary. And on that topic, we run through an incredibly helpful scenario that will show you what not to do in a salary negotiation, which is just as important as knowing what to do in a negotiation. And lastly, Vanessa answers questions from listeners like you. So if you're listening and you have further questions on this issue on either specifically salary negotiation or how to advance within your company, write them down and send them my way. Because Vanessa said she's willing to come back and do part two down the road. So, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. All right, I am here with my good friend Vanessa, and we are excited to talk about employment negotiations. So thank you so much for joining us today, Vanessa.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

So let's get started with just the. The typical interview question. Tell me about yourself.

Okay, so that's a pretty Loaded question.

But let me, let me then break.

It down for you. So I was born and raised in Philadelphia, and I moved abroad when I was 18 to Lisbon, Portugal, because my parents are Portuguese. Well, my family is Portuguese. So I moved abroad for a few years where I got my undergrad in social and organizational psychology. And I lived there for about seven years. I started right after college working within talent acquisition. So recruiting, hiring, mostly in a staffing agency environment. And then after a few years of working overseas, I wanted to come back home for a lot of personal reasons. I mean, on top of going through a divorce when I was in my mid-20s, I just. I knew that it was time to go back home. So I moved back and that's when I started working within corporate talent acquisition. And my first opportunity within corporate was about four years ago with the company that I'm currently with. And it's a Swedish, like, Hygiene paper company. And they're also. They're based in Philadelphia. Their US headquarters are here. So now within the company, I've been able to grow. I now manage a team of amazing men and women, and I lead the North American talent acquisition team for this Hygiene company. So about 10 years of experience in recruiting.

Very nice. So I'm assuming in that role you've had the opportunity to do a lot of negotiating.

Yes, so I have. Let's see, I've extended probably hundreds of offers at this point. Yeah, I mean, not. Not only here, but I mean, throughout my career. And, you know, if you know anything about agency recruiting, it's really aggressive. You almost have to, you know, fight for good candidates to get placement. So it's, it's an extremely competitive environment. And I've extended, yeah. Hundreds of offers and there's definitely tricks to it. And I think where I've succeeded with salary negotiation with candidates is really that relationship. I mean, that's what it comes down to is the relationship that you build with the candidate and then trying to get them on board to work with the company that you're with or you're representing. And that's. That's all it comes down to. So, yeah, that's my experience with. With salary negotiation.

Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between agency recruiting and corporate recruiting?

So the, I would say the main difference between agency recruiting and corporate recruiting is that, you know, you get a chance to build deeper relationships and more meaningful relationships within corporate because you're representing one company, you're. You're bringing in top talent for the company that you're with. Right. That says Everything about you, and you get the opportunity to see this top talent that you bring in grow within the organization. And that's what makes my role so rewarding, is that I've been here for four years now, and I've seen, you know, people that I hired, you know, over three years ago get promoted, and I see them grow within the company. You don't get that advantage, I think, in the agency side. And so a lot of times with agency recruiting, you know, you have to be mindful of the fact that only, you know, you know your worth, your value, and your career ambitions. And I think you have to be a little bit more assertive. Assertive with agency recruiters because they're not experts for the companies that. That they're, you know, hiring for. A lot of them aren't. Right. Just, you know, always be mindful of that. They have a lot of different clients and, you know, they don't have. They probably don't have as much detail or insight as to the companies that they're talking to you about or trying to recruit you into. Right. So just being mindful of that relationship and the fact that it should be a little different between agency staffing and corporate. Corporate staffing or corporate recruiting, that's really.

Interesting because for me, I never really thought about the differences, but, I mean, it seems significant. And when you said be more assertive in kind of standing up for what you want to do as far as your career path and your goals, how does that manifest itself in the process?

Yeah, so I think more so on the agency side, and this is just my experience, it's a little bit more of that sales environment where, you know, you want to close your deals at the end of the month. And this is the reality of it. And, you know, I have very, very good friends in the agency world, and, you know, I admire what they do, and I was such a huge part of it for so long. On the corporate side, though, it's just different because, you know, you have different insight into the company when it comes to, you know, compensation, culture, values, you know, our mission. And it's just. It's. You don't have a quota to fill at the end of the month. You just need to get top talent into your company. And it's all about, you know, who you're bringing in and how much you're giving back to the business that you're a part of. Right. So. So it's a little different in that sense when it comes to being aggressive. I know that agency recruiters, they have to Be aggressive. And that's how the industry works. There's a lot of competition in corporate. You're not competing with anyone you're focused on. Well, you're not competing with other recruiters or other talent acquisition teams. You're one team and you're competing with other companies for top talent. So it's, it's just a different mentality. Still aggressive, but, but I think from a candidate standpoint, just being mindful of the relationship piece with, with both, that's.

Fascinating because it's, it's important for everybody in negotiation to really understand the motives of everybody that's involved. Because most of the time when you're in a negotiation, you just see you and the person that, with whom you're speaking and those are the only parties. But when you do a thorough negotiation analysis, you realize that there are more, there are more players involved. And yeah, the, the motivations aren't obvious all the time. So that's, I'm really glad you said that.

Yeah, I, I would completely agree. I've, I've always said that my, my success in hiring talent is making them happy, meaning making candidates that I'm working with happy early on through transparency. So, you know, I always encourage candidates to be as open as possible with me early on as to what they're looking for, why they're looking, because that will make things so much easier for both of us, but most importantly for them. And I think, you know, it's harder to see that when, you know, you're not within the company. Right. You're trying to get in. And as an outsider and as a candidate, you know, it's harder to see certain things. But I've always said that negotiation when it comes to salary is just, it's so much better and easier and rewarding when you're just open and transparent early on.

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So one of the best ways to learn how to do something is by Getting examples of what not to do. So can you give us an example of something you shouldn't do in a salary negotiation?

This is definitely a hypothetical situation, but I think it's important to understand what you shouldn't be doing in a negotiation, because negotiating poorly when it comes to salary can truly hurt you in getting what you want or even in certain relationships that you're trying to build. In giving you a specific scenario, when you're going through a hiring process, you usually have a phone interview, a first initial phone interview with a recruiter or someone on a talent acquisition team, and they usually would cover compensation with you. Right. A good recruiter, talent acquisition member wants to know a little bit more about your expectations, your salary expectations, and so, you know, you usually cover that on the first call, and I'd hope you would. My advice would be to always share as a candidate what you're looking for in your next salary. The recruiter might probe a little bit more on what you're making now, but I would openly share what you're looking for. So, for example, you know, if, if you're looking for 100k in your next salary and that's really what you want to make, that's okay. You should say that and not be afraid of saying that. Right. So in that role, you've done your research, you know what you're making, you know what the position might offer, but based on the industry that it's in, and you want that 100k, right. So I would encourage any candidate to openly share that with the recruiter or with whoever they're initially in contact with. And so they openly share that they want 100k as a candidate. Great. We proceed right in the hiring process and we go through the interviews, on site interviews, next rounds, which don't drag on too much, or at least they shouldn't. Right. And then you get to that offer stage and that 100k that you were looking for is realistic. And you got that input early on from the recruiter or from the talent acquisition member that you're working with. Right. You got that input and they wouldn't have dragged you along hopefully, if it wasn't something that was obtainable for the company. So you get to that offer stage and they extend you what you're looking for. They extend you the 100k base salary plus whatever it may be, if there's bonus opportunity, other perks, benefits. You get the 100k that you openly shared with from early on. Great. You're in a good spot. You go to your current employer, the one that you're looking to leave, right? This is the scenario, and you tell them that you're leaving and you want to hand in your notice because ultimately you got what you were looking for. You openly shared it early on and you're excited about the new opportunity. Opportunity. But your current employer doesn't want to lose you. And they go back and say, well, you know what, what was your offer? 100. Fine, I'll give you 110. I'll give you 115, whatever it takes so that you don't leave. You go back to the recruiter at this new company, right, that you're looking forward to joining, and you say, you know what? I thank you so much. I'm so excited about this opportunity you gave me, what I was looking for. I mean, everything, right? Everything aligned because you wanted that hundred, right? And that's what you got. But now your current employer is saying, well, you know what, I'm going to give you even more. So you go back to this potential employer and say, my current employer offered me 110, even the possibility to go up to 115. Is there any way that I can get more at this point? Now, mind you, rewind, you've accepted that 100k already. That's the most important detail out of the story. You were so excited about the 100k, you accepted it and you went to your employer literally to resign, right? To give in your notice. And then they came back and countered, you've already accepted the 100k and you're going back to negotiate more big. No, no, that's what you shouldn't do. Now, if you hadn't accepted the offer, there would have been an opportunity to negotiate maybe a little bit more. But because you were always set and transparent about the 100, you would be catching that potential employer off guard, right? And saying, well, you know what? I know I've always said 100, but can I get 105 or can I even get the 110 that my current employer is offering me? There's always going to be a reason why you want to leave, right? And you want to build the right relationships early on with that potential new employer that you have, right? Or that you might have. So be very mindful that, you know, there's a time to negotiate and if you don't do it early on and then follow through with might, it might just come back to, you know, to bite you to a certain degree. Because even if you've already accepted an offer, I mean, you can always turn it Down. But what type of relationship is that going to leave with that company that you were interviewing with? Right. Even if you do decide to stay with your current employer for more money. Right. So that's the scenario where in a perfect world, I would say follow through with that number or with what you're targeting early on. And if you change your mind throughout the process, also let the recruiter or the talent acquisition member know. You can always communicate when you change your mind. And if there's something that you learned about the role that you didn't know early on, you could always negotiate throughout. But when you get to that end part of the offer. Right. You can only really negotiate. Once you receive the offer, you consider it. Right. And then you come back that first time to counter. You get one counter, essentially. But make sure that you counter before you accept the offer. If you've accepted the offer, you really can't negotiate any bit more than that.

I love this hypothetical because there it is, so rich with detail and nuance. And thank you so much for sharing this. I have a few questions about it. So in that first initial, that initial phone conversation, when they ask for your expectation, what if you're not quite sure what the salary range is? And there's always a situation, it's always going to be the case where the other side knows more than you do in the negotiation. Like, they know how much they can give, they know their budget. And so there's a possibility, you come in and you say, I'd like a hundred. And they were thinking, we can give this person up to 120. And then they're just like, okay, you know, there's your hundred, and you never know what you can get. Is there any. Do you think there's any value in kind of trying to dodge that question as well, as well as the. How much you were making before?

Yeah. So my advice to that is always do your research. Right. Leverage Glassdoor. There's so much insightful, you know, salary information on Glassdoor do that, you know, definitely look into the industry, the role, and try to get as much insight as possible before even discussing compensation. That's. That's rule number one. But the fact is, if you're at 80 and you've been underpaid and the role can go up to 120, but you're targeting 100, and you'd be okay with that. Do your research. Don't dodge the question. That's. That's my advice. Right. My advice is when the recruiter asks you what you're looking for, Say that you're targeting 100, but you've done your research and you know that the position can pay up to 110 or 120, right? Whatever it may be. But you're being flexible. If they try to probe a little bit more on, you know, what you're currently making, just say, you know, that that number that I just shared with you, 100, you know, is what I'm targeting, and it's an increase to what I'm making now. And if they want to keep probing, I would not provide, you know, where you're currently at if they keep insisting, because that's just. That's unprofessional, to be quite honest. Right? So if they ask you once, you know, give them a little bit of information, right? Because then they'll probably think, well, maybe this person's at 90 or at 95. And if they ask you, then just say I'm around that ballpark. You don't ever have to give a number once, you know, they start probing a little bit more. But definitely provide a number that you would be happy with, knowing what the market pays the industry, the role. Right. After you've done your research. But make sure that you say, you know, this position pays more than what you're targeting, right? So that you Openly say the hundred. But when they come back and offer you 100 and you really know that the position can pay up to 120, you negotiate 110, and then you'll probably get maybe even 105. Right? They'll meet you halfway if they really want you, and then you just got an extra 5k out of it. The truth is, even if a position can pay up to 120, it varies. It's based on experience, knowledge, education. Right. And you may not be eligible for the 120 according to the range that the company has. Right? So be mindful of that and know what you're worth. Fight for what you're worth, but don't. I would encourage you to share a number that you are truly happy with and is comparable fairly early on so that you get what you want out of this.

Very nice. Now, what if you're applying online and they have that box, and the box has that red asterisk of doom that requires you to say your salary there, your current salary. How do you avoid that?

Yeah, that's a tough one. You know, is there any way that they can just like, add a little dash instead of a number or, you know, we don't have that in our application Process. So I would not add a number in my application. If I was a candidate, I would not do it. I would find a way to just put something there where, you know, you can maybe add like, you know, a few numbers, like, you know, a dash or, you know, I don't know, a plus sign.

Right.

Something that, that gets by and that, you know, what, they look at your resume, they like what they see. They see that you didn't add a number, which means, you know what, we might need to talk this through, which is fine, and then they'll call you anyway. Right. So I, in an application, I would, I would not add compensation.

Okay. And with the counter, do you have any rules of thumb when it comes to countering? Like how do we know how much to counter with?

Hmm, that's a great question. Yeah. I mean, for. In my personal experience, it's always been about that, that conversation early on, which really manages expectations for both parties. So, you know, realistically, I mean, you would leave your current job with your current company if you were to make, you know, a significant jump. Right. And when I say significant, I mean it's more than what you'd make in an increase at your current role. Right. Or your current job. So I'm going to say you want to leave your company for at least 20%. Right. And if you share that number early on. Right. With that 20% increase, then I think in terms of a counter, it should be, I mean, an additional 5 or 10%. Beyond that, I mean, if you're thinking about it and leaving your current position for a 30% increase in base salary, that's huge. Right. So in numbers and in simplifying that, let's go back to the 100k example, right? If you, if you openly said that you were, you know, targeting 100K, that those are your. That's your expectation. Right. When it comes to salary increase and you get 100k in your offer. I would negotiate for 108. If you can, if you have justification for it, if you've had those conversations early on, if you have that relationship, relationship with your recruiter, and if you've indicated that that's, that's something that, that would be very important to you, I would negotiate at the 107, 108, so that you can probably get 105.

Now, putting your recruiter hat on, let's say you didn't have. Well, you would have the conversation about expectations and the person says, well, you know, I'm, I'd like to have an opportunity where I can make between 100 and 120 and they kind of put it as at a range and then you come with a $100,000 offer and they counter at 117. How would you feel as a recruiter? But if they were able to back it up with like legitimate criteria, how would that make you feel in your position?

Yeah, so I'll put my recruiter hat on there. 100 and 120 is a very, very large range. So I would level set very early on. I would say, okay, what are we looking at realistically? I mean, 100 to 120, does it mean that you're okay with 100? I would level set expectations and truly understand, you know, where they want to be. Because if it's that high of a range, then the 120 is probably where they would absolutely love to, to be at. But they don't think it's very realistic, which is why they're giving that large of a range. Right. So it's really the psychology piece behind it. I would definitely probe a little bit more on that first conversation. When they say 100 to 120 and say, okay, so, you know, if we were to, at the end of this process extend you 100k, how realistic is it that you would accept? I would really ask that question early on to understand if 100 is a respectable offer because that's what's most important to me as a recruiter. Or is it that 110, 115 and they're just trying to get a little bit more and say 120. So it just, it comes back to expectations and early on having these conversations that are so important that everyone is scared to have, but you just can't because if you don't, it'll hurt, you know, you at the end as a candidate and it will not help the company. And hopefully the company is being as transparent as, as you are in the process.

I love that question you came back with. How would you feel with 100? Because it, it's an expert level negotiation question because you're, you're reality testing because the person was trying to sneak through saying a big old range so they can then kind of hold that over your head later on down the road when they get an offer. But it was an expert response coming back with an open ended question asking for elaboration on their perspective on their true outlook. And I think that's something that people need to keep in mind. You can't just walk into these salary negotiations thinking, oh, you know, I got this. When you're dealing with people like you who do this for a living. So there's really no opportunity unless you have between the ages of 22 and whatever you've gone through a hundred jobs, there's no way for, for them to be on your level when it comes to the salary negotiation.

Yeah, I mean, experience helps in negotiation. I would, I would agree, but you know, it wouldn't be fair. Fair to the candidate that just said they're targeting 100 to 120. You know, it wouldn't be fair to them if I didn't as a recruiter, probe a little bit more because that would lead them on to later wanting an unrealistic number as a base salary and possibly the company not even being able to offer it. And then we both walk away unhappy at the end of the process. Right. And that's the last thing I want. So, yeah, as a professional, we should probe a little bit more when we face this type of situation.

Yeah, you're right. That does make a lot of sense. All right, so now we're going to shift gears a little bit. We're going to hit these next questions as Q and A style because I got a lot of responses from people in our audience and so we're just going to read them verbatim and then you just bless us with your wisdom.

Sounds good.

Okay, so this question is from Shannon. I was just looking at the salary growth for creatives and it's terrible. Even when you get to a director level, how do you see your value from the company side instead of putting your own self doubts into the equation?

You know what, that's a question that just has so much to it. Right? You know, remove, remove the obstacles from, from your mindset. That's, that's the first thing, right? How do you, how do you see your, your value? Right? Without self doubt? You know what, that's. Look at it this way. How are you the go to person, you know, in, in different situations within your company? Look at it that way. Start realizing what people come to you for, what they search for when, when they're talking to you, right. What they want to collaborate with you on. Look at it from that standpoint of value. Right? I know companies a lot of times say, well, you know what, you know that person's replaceable, but you know what? You're not. You are as valuable as you put yourself out there to be. So completely remove that self doubt from the equation because that inner voice that's constantly saying, you know what? You didn't do that. Right? So let's do it over completely. Remove that. Because only you can put yourself out there in your company so that they see your value. That's all within your control. So don't forget that.

I love that response because a lot of times it's hard when you're that close to yourself. I mean, there's nobody physically closer to you than yourself. Sometimes you're too close to see the value that you can bring. And so your response of saying, figure out where your, your value is as far as like, what are your.

What.

What makes you the go to person. And also one thing that I found is when I ask people like, what do you think of me in XYZ situation? You'd be really surprised. The insight you can get from some people who have a different perspective and a lot of times you'll be pleasantly surprised. So I really love that advice.

Good, good. Yeah. You know, asking for that constructive feedback is so important, but I think that's the toughest thing. You know, what you just said, asking for specific insight on how you are in certain situations, you know, you're so scared that you're going to get something, you know, that you're going to get a response that you weren't looking for. Right. Or that you weren't hoping for is what prevents you from asking it in the first place. So, yeah, value does come from putting yourself out there. And that was a great example. Kwame.

Nice. Well, thank you. I want to give a quick shout out to my friends on the Paychecks and Balances podcast because they have an episode called called Making Yourself Indispensable, and I think that would help you all out when it comes to figuring out your value for the company. So check that out on the Paychecks and Balances podcast, too. Another question from Shannon. How do you ask for more when you're still learning and working towards becoming an expert?

Yeah, that's a great question. So without realizing it, you're probably already an expert in what you do. So really break it down. Remove industry, remove, you know, specific, you know, information to your role. Right. Look at what you do in your day to day and look around you and see if there's anyone else that does it as well as you do or that has the amount of potential that you do in what you're doing, if that makes any sense. Right. So look at yourself as an expert and remove anything else from the equation. But I have to say that there are certain industries that naturally pay more than others based on what they manufacture, based on what they sell. Whether it's a product, a service, right? For example, pharma, pharmaceuticals, right? They make a lot of money because they sell their products, you know, in a very pricey fashion, let's put it that way. It's, you know, so they're making a lot of money and they can probably pay you more because of it. So look at the industry that you're in. Evaluate whether it makes you happy, whether you're learning with, with where you are as quickly as you want to learn, right? Because if you're not, reevaluate what's most important to you. Reevaluate who you're working with, because that's who you learn most with is the people around you. Reevaluate what you're accomplishing. Right? So there are certain industries which I know won't be able to pay you as much, but get that insight from Glassdoor. Again, use the tools, use the Internet, use what's out there to learn a little bit more about what you can accomplish if you were in a different setting, and then really evaluate if what you're doing now and where you're doing it is getting you closer to where you want to be.

Right. And another thing, too, to speaking towards expertise. Expertise is relative. So you might feel like you don't have much expertise compared to the CEO of the company, but relative to other people, you are the expert, and you're always going to be learning. So when you say you're in the question, it was phrased as, how do you ask for more when you're still learning and working towards becoming an expert? The only time you're. You stop learning and, and honing your expertise is when you're dead. And you know what they always say, true dead people don't get raises. Have you heard that one?

I haven't heard that one. Is that a new one?

Yes. Coined here. Trademark.

All right. I thought so. I love it. I love it. Okay, so then let's, let's actually give Shannon, you know, a, you know, a realistic answer, right? Like a realistic example of how she can go to her manager and ask for a raise regardless of expertise, right? Because expertise, we just said it, right, Is relative. So know your worth. Know what you're, what you're known for, right? Who. Who goes to you for what and when. So know that, observe that, make a checklist if you have to. And then, you know, it also depends on the relationship that you have with your manager and how comfortable you are with your manager. But regardless of that, you know, go, go into the conversation you know, ask to set up some time and go into the conversation on a very positive note and be prepared to talk to your manager about what you've accomplished, you know, what you've gone above and beyond for and where you still want grow so that you allow your manager to see your full potential in how you see yourself. Right. Because only you can limit yourself. So once you do that, have a specific increase in mind that you're looking for based on your research, based on what you know about your company. Right. There is an advantage to being an internal employee. So think about all of that and go into it with for example, a percentage that you target in terms of an increase, let's say 10%, even number 10%. If your manager isn't able to at least meet you halfway, then suggest the following. Suggest a mid year increase. Ask for the 5% now that they're willing to offer you because you've earned it and set specific deliverables and objectives for what you want to cover in the next six months and ask for the additional 5% increase at the end of those six months upon revision of those objectives and if they've been obtained and see what they say. That's my suggestion there.

I love that. And it's essentially almost, it's essentially like a pre negotiation. You make it almost like math. You agree on certain objectives and then certain deliverables and once they're delivered, they deliver the salary increase. I love that.

Yep.

So Shannon, you have some homework and we, you know, I'm going to check up on you, so get working on that and I'm going to make a freebie salary negotiation freebie for you all to download. So if you go to americannegotiationinstitute.com salary you can get that and start game planning and preparing for your next revolution negotiation. So that was for you, Shannon. So this question is from Faria. She says some companies will ask you to do more and more and continue to pile more work onto your plate without reflecting the increased work with increased compensation. How would you suggest that we handle that?

Yeah. So the beauty of pushing back, I think that's, that's my initial thought there. Right. So, and notice I didn't say the word no. Right. Which is everyone's fear and that's why they allow the work to pile on. So this is about, it's about two things. It's about your own growth and learning and how you continue to challenge yourself. So evaluate whether the work that's being given to you is, is doable from a Time standpoint, right? If you can actually tackle it and what you're going to learn from it, if it's basic, you know, work that won't allow you to keep growing, right. And it's just standard things that, you know, what probably no one else wants to do or they're willing to do, then that's where I'm going to say, push back a little bit and say, you know what? I, you know, thank you for coming to me and for asking me, but I can only do this out of what you're asking me. So, you know, don't say no and don't turn the person down completely. But set early on the expectation of I want to do this for you, but I want to do it well and to be able to do that, I can't do it all. I can only do this much of it for you. Is that okay? Are you okay with that? Do you have someone else that can help you with the other part? If you position it that way, they won't see it as being turned down or as receiving a no from you. You're willing to help, right? But you're giving yourself that respect. Right. Of, you know what? This person just, they don't want to do it. Right? This person doesn't want to do this work. They're coming to me with it. I'm going to push back and stand my ground so that I respect myself. And most importantly, they see that and they respect me.

Wow. You know, I, I like to come up with follow up questions on that, but you pretty much handled everything. That was really good. That was really good. I see I need to figure out how to tell my boss to stop giving me work. But, you know, that might be a bit problematic since I work for myself, but.

Yeah, yeah. So then use the same rationale. Right? So what is going to challenge you? Right. Keep growing and what can you maybe outsource somewhere else or ask someone else to help you with? Right. So use that same concept though. I know it's harder said than done, right?

No, but I think you're right. Think we're. I'm at the point now where I need to seriously consider adding people to my team here. It's always a scary step in business, but, you know, that's how there's no, you know, Fortune 1000 solo business out there. So I need to change my mentality. But I know time is short. I want to finish up with one more question. And we actually just got this question today. And so this question is from, from Isaac. And so he says right now the biggest thing he wants out of his job is education. He needs to learn as much as he can. The reason, and he says, the reason I've been pushed, I've pushed for a larger salary is so that I can afford more education. I've talked with my boss before about seminars and such, but he pushes them off. Earning more would enable me to book learning opportunities. Does that negotiation approach increase salary to afford education? Does that make sense? Or should I be doing something else?

Yeah, that's such an excellent question. Okay, so most companies, or a lot of companies have tuition reimbursement programs which allow you to get your undergrad or go and get your grad. Go to grad school, right? Go and get your master's, your mba, they allow you to invest in higher education. But if, you know, if your company doesn't have that or if that's not what you're going for and you want, you know, just, you want to go to more seminars, you want to go, you know, to more conferences and come back with that learning, then I think it'll help if you just sit down with your manager and literally tell them, you know, what's, what's the roi, what's the return on investment, what's in it for them? Right. And align the learning from that seminar or that conference to your team's objectives to the business objectives of the company. Right. Because I think it'll help if you allow your manager to understand what's in it for them. That's really what it comes down to. Money equals value, right? So it's great that you want to invest in your education, but you need to link it to back to the business if you want them to pay for it. Right? That's what it comes down to. So if you commit to going to the seminar, this conference, and you come back with specific deliverables, or you come back with specific objectives that you're looking to learn and then bring back. Right. And implement, for example, then I think that will allow your manager to understand the value of the education that you're looking for and would help you invest in that. I don't believe that companies increase your salary because you want to pursue education. It's always something separate, whether it's through a tuition reimbursement program, as a formal program in the company, or it's on the side investment of your own growth and learning through seminars and conferences. But they need to be linked back to the company and to the growth of the company. And it needs to be aligned with what you're looking for as well.

I think that's a great response. And what would you say to Isaac when it comes to really framing that conversation in a way that doesn't scare the manager up front? Because I'm sure if Isaac comes in and says, I want more money, the person's going to kind of get on guard, you know, so that initial ask, like, how do I. How does he approach his manager?

Yeah. So I would not approach that conversation. Going into it from an education standpoint, if you're just looking to increase your base salary. Right. So just know that both things usually aren't connected. Go into it thinking, okay, whether it's a salary increase, Right. You have to position it one way in general. Right. Given your worth, your accomplishments, your value, that's one thing. If you just want to go in there and, you know, give your manager the ROI behind what you want to do with your education. And these seminars and these conferences align back to what, you know, what might be on a performance review. Right. So what might be, you know, your own goals for the year objectives, what your team goals may be, what the business objectives are. Right. Go back to that and prepare for that conversation so that, you know, you disarm your manager with any other follow up questions that he or she may have that might, just might decrease your chances right. In getting that buy in. So go into it and say, you know what, I will obviously always thank them for their time and go in and just say, you know what, I value what I do here. I want to continue growing and this seminar, this conference would mean a lot to me. Definitely add the emotional piece in there. Because if you have a good relationship with your manager, then they'll care, right. That it means something to you. And then go into the specific, you know, tactical, you know, ROI input and go into it and say, you know what, these are our team goals. This is what the business wants to get out of this year. I would like to contribute to this through my own personal objectives and professional objectives and go to the seminar to come back with this and be able to implement it. What do you think? Always ask them at the end of the conversation, after you completely bombard them with all of the facts, ask them what they think because that will get their buy in, that will get their input, that is what will allow them to say, you know what, I never thought about it that way. I'd be open to you going, right? And this is where they may negotiate a little bit with you. I know you want to go to this seminar or this conference, but why don't you try going to just one day or to two days out of that entire conference? From a financial standpoint, I think it'll be better for us. Is that still within the ROI that you just presented me? Be prepared, have that conversation fully thought out to get what you want to continue learning. I don't know if that answered the question.

Yeah, it does. I think that this is cool. And one of the things that you said that I really want to key in on here is, and this is really an expert level strategy when it comes to figuring out really what the manager or your boss cares about, looking at the goals and objectives that he or she set for you. Those are the things that are most important. And so that gives you the opportunity, that insight gives you the opportunity to frame the whole discussion from their perspective. So you're speaking their language from the beginning. Go back to old emails. What is it that, that they care about? What are the things that they say? Repeatedly use those words and phrases to speak their language. Because like I said in one of the other podcasts, people have a self serving bias. They feel like they are really smart. If you say things that sounds like them, they'll think you're really smart too. So that would be a really strong way for you to increase your persuasion just by essentially mirroring their what they've said in the past.

I completely agree. That's awesome. Yep. That's. Yeah. Nothing more to add to that. Kwame, that was beautiful.

Well, thank you so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you all the listeners for your questions.

Thanks for me having, having me. This is so much fun. I love the Q and a portion of it. It's, it, you know, it makes me feel like I'm truly making a difference to the listener. So, hey, if we do another Q and A part two, I'd love that. I'd be open to it. I am happy to help. And you know, with my experience, I know that I can make a difference. So I would, I would love to come back. Thank you. Thanks again for having me.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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