The Power of Collaborative Negotiation: Insights from Mark Davis

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Mark. Welcome back, my friend.

Kwame. Good to be with you again. My gosh, I don't know how long it's been since the last one, but it's great to see you looking good.

Yes, thank you. Same to you listeners. Once we get on YouTube, I just cannot wait for you all to see Mark's new beard. He looks so good. I love it, man. So how would you get us started? By telling us about yourself and what you do.

So, Mark Davis, My specialty is negotiation strategy consulting and training from a law background many moons ago and few twists and turns along the way, but you know, my, my career has spanned negotiation strategy for big CPG companies, leaders of those organizations, and specifically a focus on bringing the relevance of culture into how you do negotiation, what it is to lead a negotiation and to ensure that we can give a little bit more breathing room to perhaps the non traditional ways of approaching commercial negotiation without losing the commerciality. You know, I have two, two daughters. They're constantly negotiating with me and prove me wrong, you know, day in, day out. But they've, they've picked up a few, a few of the habits a bit too early. But that's what I've been up to, up to mostly. I don't know what else there is to say. You know, we're having a great 2023 so far and we wanted to share that with you and your devout followers and listeners and, you know, see what people have to say about it.

Yeah, and the term that keeps on coming to my mark for some reason is that you're experiencing some kind of new beginning. Is There some kind of new beginning in your life right now?

Well, in that seamless segue, yes, there's an emergence. Yeah, we. Yes, I. Before I came on, I'd have been talking about negotiation, initiative, and that was my baby that kicked all of this off. But, yes, New Beginnings is the brainchild of me and my business partner. I love her to death as well. My friend Angelique, Angelique Bradford. And we talked, as I said, nine, ten years ago, as an idea, really listening to what our clients and customers were saying about how they wanted to deepen strategic relationships. So, yes, New Beginnings Consultation is the name and we feel it's quite, you know, it's of its time and it's quite apt, I think, with where we are thinking about sort of the macro, the macro picture of not only just the global markets, but just how businesses are trying to stay relevant, you know, keep resilient and engage with a wider and deeper and more diverse audience than ever. So, yeah, we at New Beginnings are. The business itself actually is 3 years old just last week. I've been involved loosely the last year, off and on. I had another full time commitment and I've been full steam ahead since the start of the year. So we're all about collaboration and culture and ensuring that people can use the two to really bring their biggest strengths to negotiation in the most sort of natural way possible.

Love it. Yes. Everybody, make sure you check that out. The new company is great and I think it's an incredible collaboration and it's so important to have new voices in the industry because the way that you approach it is completely different. And listeners. Mark, my friend, just like a lot of my friends, very humble, but Mark is one of the world's foremost leaders in cultural intelligence applied to negotiations. And so whenever there is something that comes up about cultural intelligence, I always refer to Mark's work because it's exceptional. And with this approach, you're focusing on collaboration. And I loved what you said before, before we started, like the actual podcast, you said we're collaborating while still maintaining the commercial interests and not being naive. And so I think one of the things before we started about, start talking about what collaboration is and how to do it effectively. I think we should speak to some of those biases that might exist about the term itself, because I think it's been used and overused in the industry to the point where it's almost become kind of misunderstood in some key fundamental ways. So what are some of those myths or misunderstandings or concerns that people have about collaboration that might hold them back from embracing it as an important part of a negotiation.

It's a good question. And I think that what's happened with collaboration as a viable concept, I think it's twofold, one at scale over, let's say, the last 20, 30 years, you've had a lot of corporate training in this area that has espoused the long term benefits of sustainable relationships, in its words. But in action, what people have found most exhilarating and had the best short term success with are those behaviors that give you the maximum value but in a short timeframe. So this idea of being very firm, hard, cold and tough, quite even dismissive of the other side, shifting that perception of power you have in a negotiation just to deliver the best possible outcome in the short term, and I think what that's meant is people have to a greater or lesser extent adopted a separation of their own personal feelings about how they should enter into a negotiation. And they've adopted a set of prescribed behaviors that's been taught to them. And that actually then has come at the expense of really understanding the long term ramifications of that behavior as opposed to starting from a place of, well, if we kept our behavior more neutral. And by that I mean more consistent. Because you can be firm and really clear about a short term outcome in the same way that you can be very firm and very clear about a long term outcome, but without over exaggerating those behaviors, which I feel often is being reiterated not only through workshops that are delivered, but also through that learned behavior that management have utilized and utilized to their success, you know, in developing their careers. And it's just become the norm. And then you throw into that obviously the tyranny of the quarterly reports, the expectation on delivering numbers back to shareholders. And I'm being quite pithy in making those assertions because they're very big topics in and of themselves. But I think it's meant that collaboration has been seen as something that those who weren't quite good at the more hard edged elements of negotiation, that's what they tend to revert to. Indeed. I've even seen, over the years, I've heard this in, in meetings, you know, that, that only the phrase sort of only the weak would seek to collaborate, you know, which is a very, very crazy sort of thing to say. But at the root of that is this idea that, well, if you have the power to exercise, then you should exercise it, but if you don't, then clearly you're going to look for a more collaborative approach to the negotiation. And so it's already been given this certain stigma, if you like, that to want to collaborate is seen as weakness. And we really fundamentally think that that's not only incorrect, but actually that short sighted approach mitigates the opportunity to maximize value in the long term.

Yes. I'm so glad that we started here, Mark, because I think for the people who are skeptical of collaboration, that last line is what they need to hear. Because there's going to be a subset of the population where they are more collaborative by nature, where they are just kind of wired that way to approach the negotiation in a way that's more collaborative, that keeps the interest of the other party in mind, that's a little bit more empathetic and those type of things. And then there are going to be some people who think about collaboration more in terms of a moral imperative where this is something that we should do because we are good people. And that isn't going to be persuasive to the deal makers who have quarterly reports to respond to. But at the end of the day, collaboration, if we're looking at it purely through the lens of negotiation and our ultimate goals, collaboration, when done appropriately, can give you better returns than focusing on the short term. And I love the fact that you focused on that distinction between short term and long term thinking, because if you're focusing on the quarterly reports and things like that, then those metrics will incentivize that short term thinking with the negotiation, where it might make sense for that purpose to kind of destroy your negotiation partner in order to maximize value for your company. But then when you do that, people have this thing called memory and humans tend to like this thing called revenge. And then it really could hurt you down the road when you think about it from a long term perspective. And so let's now talk about that long term perspective. What are the long term payoffs from negotiating in a more collaborative type of way? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And we will be right back after this.

Well, I think you build up a greater tolerance for the uncertainty that the markets bring. For one, I think if you are particularly successful at the short termist view, and maybe the metrics therefore are a lot simpler, it's your margin or the volume, keeping it really, really, really, really simple. Well, you can do that on your own and you don't really need another strategic partner in support of that end game. But I think a collaborative approach ensures that there's that group resilience to unforeseen market forces that come in. It gives you a greater robustness and resilience to, to any disruptors that might enter the marketplace as well. So that in first, first and foremost is one element. I think the other thing that it does allow you to do also the idea of being collaborative is that you are much more open to innovation and innovative ideas. And the, the extended notion of that is that you then attract those individuals, those other organizations to you that have a similar, you know, similar mindset. You know, if you're open to looking at things through a different lens or suggesting that change is something that you're not as resistant to as your competitor, well then you're inviting that different perspective that, that other, that other lens into an arena that maybe has had a lot of heritage and legacy to it. But you know, for whatever reason, whether it's the Internet, whether it's, you know, the price of crops going up, you know, name, name your sort of external factor, but I think you've got a lot more resilience and as I say, and your ability to attract and retain and engage with a lot more of a diverse audience gives you that robustness over time.

This is critically important, especially today. And I know we replay these episodes, so whatever day it happens to be, it is still going to be legitimate. Because think about when we first recorded our first episode together. I think that was the middle of the pandemic. There was a lot of change, a lot of change there. But then you think about in the US actually in the UK too, there's been a lot of political upheaval and change, change. And it's been very tumultuous politically and civically. And then with artificial intelligence disrupting industry after industry. So long story short, in the day that we're living in, times are uncertain, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad ways. And the only thing that is certain is continuous change. And the stronger your relationships are with the people that you work with, the more Resilient you're going to be in the face of that change because you're not going to be as rigid. So you think about the term bend, bend but don't break, right? If you're rigid, then your deals can break, your relationships can break. But if you're more fluid and willing to adjust and adapt and be flexible to help your negotiation partner, you're going to invite that type of reciprocity for you. They're more willing to be flexible with you in times of change and it makes it more likely for you to create a relationship that is going to stand the test of time. And, and that is what can lead to those long term benefits that companies ultimately want to cultivate.

Yeah, and I think if we were to drill, sort of, you know, drill into that on a sort of personal level. I think one of the legacy issues of the type of corporate mass scale negotiation training that we've been talking about is that it has been and is very rigid. You know, it is. If you want the best possible deal, then as I said, sort of behave in this way, you know, and, and you'll maximize the opportunity. And there's just no wriggle room to say, well, what if we are in a, in a climate that, that just won't, won't tolerate or allow for that type of behavior to perpetuate. And I think we've been, you know, we've been duped into thinking that it's what, there's just one particular mode of, of doing things. But as you say, if it's so rigid and it is something that's a little bit inauthentic, if you aren't really that sort of person who can puff out their chest proverbially and you can be a more sort of dominant character. Well, if you've had to sort of put that mask on or wear that type of jacket to get the deal done and it was never you in the first place and then you're trying to build trust after that, like do you keep up that facade or you know, you've got to be very good at doing that or you've then got to say, sorry, I was behaving that way for a certain end. And now that the markets have, market conditions have changed and you know, we've now got a real crisis on supply, you know, how about we, you know, now I'm really being trustworthy and now I'm, I really would like to collaborate. Do you see what I mean? It's just something that's very difficult to maintain, particularly as you say, in this day and age of being hyper connected, you know, maybe 30 years ago, you and I could, could put a deal together. It could be relatively strategic in, in, let's say, the size of the, of the deal relative to our own income. But I could say what I needed to do, what I needed to do. We could sign the, the agreement and then to be honest, I probably would never need to engage with you again. And how much of my credibility could you question? 20, 30 years ago, the information wouldn't have readily been available. There wouldn't be the ability to sense, check that. Whereas now everyone's got a supercomputer in their phones. And if you want to understand the credibility of someone's position, you can delve into it, you can find out. I just think it's, as you say, more relevant now than ever. But I think this idea of being able to do a deal one time and then walk away from that organization or that individual and think that the reputation that you've created with them, how you've left them feeling, won't have consequences down the line because you're never going to see them again or they're never going to be able to revisit the relationship. I just think that hasn't been true for a long time, but it's been a legacy of this sort of behavior that we're still trying to unravel and still trying to explain.

Mark, I didn't think about it that way, but you're so right because having that collaborative approach gives you a bit more flexibility to be more authentic. You can be real with the person that you're talking to. But also you have the ability to inspire vulnerability and create a safe space where the person can actually begin to trust you. But if you put on your shark costume and then you serate somebody in a negotiation, then the market changes and you're like, hey, you remember that time, aren't we buddies that we like each other? We're friends. Who are you, sir?

That's it.

No, we're not friends.

Right, that's it. Yeah, everyone's trying to be this sort of. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you need to be, you know, for those people listening, watching that are into it, you need to be kind of a Jedi Master to kind of know what's real and what isn't. And yeah, it just doesn't work. You know, you can still be firm and you can still want to achieve number X or, you know, a goal with variables A, B, C, D and E. But if I deliver it in A way that's authentic but firm, you know, without being aggressive, without being arrogant, without being this, you know, sort of more elaborate version of myself, or even worse, just a version of myself that isn't really who I believe I am, you know, day to day and how I behave day to day. If the person says no, then you haven't completely, not only desecrated the relationship, but you haven't sort of besmirched yourself either. You know, you haven't, you haven't, you haven't turned yourself into something you're not. And there will be another opportunity. But I think that for a lot of our, our clients and, and business leaders, they're wrestling at the moment with the idea of, well, we would like to be more authentic. We want to show that vulnerability. But we have got to be mindful that for many there's a legacy of behaving a certain way. There's a legacy of how the markets have allowed people to behave. And we don't want to, we don't want to be, be vulnerable to that exploitation either. And that's really where a lot of our sort of deep work is done. It's at the individual level on leaders being able to engage with their counterparts to say, we want to go in this direction and these are the things we want to do differently and step by step getting there, you know, over a longer time period with those that are willing to go there, you know, but it's not about exposing yourself to a different approach to commerciality with those that are stuck in, let's say, you know, the more traditional, hard edged, as you say, sort of the sort of shark approach. Because that will also only lead to one end. And we want our clients to be commercial, to be collaborative, but not to be naive either.

Yeah, let's go deeper into that, that concern or that fear of being taken advantage of when you use a collaborative approach. Because that's something that I've heard from a lot of different people when they say, well, I don't want to be too nice because then I could possibly be taken advantage of. And that's true. If you don't blend collaboration with strong negotiation strategy and the willingness to be assertive, somebody could take advantage of you. So how do you blend that collaborative approach while still being assertive enough to achieve your goals in a negotiation?

Well, I think one of the, the first thing that we have our clients consider is the, the context. So the, the environment. What, what environment are you, you know, are you negotiating in? And by that we mean the marketplace. You Know, if you're in an environment which is heavily commoditized in terms of how success is measured, then what you need to be mindful of is understanding from your point of view, well, what additional variables or factors need to come into play for our counterpart to recognize that, yes, the commodity side of it is crucial and is a big deal, but that we also want you to take consideration of these other factors in the deal. And I think a lot of what we've talked about over the, over the years, Kwame, is this notion of knowing when to sort of sell and when to negotiate. And I think it's about selling the ideas and concepts. And a really simple approach to that that I use is the what if? Question in your planning and preparation and thinking about drivers and motivations. What if we were to introduce this into the scenario and it's about getting a reaction from the other side to know whether they're even willing to go there. If we were to add this into the mix, what if we could do it like this instead of this? Under what circumstances could we consider adding A, B and C into the equation as well as keeping the core KPIs in the deal? And it's about getting that sense check. And in addition to that, being willing to consider consciously on your side of the table, well, how far beyond our normal breakpoint are we willing to go? That point of no return are we willing to go to demonstrate how important this collaborative element is to us and that the features of this collaborative element are things we really want in the deal. I think it's this idea of you've got to also be willing to take that first step to do something differently and demonstrate that. But bear in mind that if you're dealing with people who are very much into the commodity, they see it as binary. They see it as, how do we slice the pie rather than how do we grow it? So you've got to sell the idea to them, being really crude about it. You've got to sell and show them what's in it for them for them to get on board in the first place. That's one really simple, quick kind of coaching example where if someone said that to me, it would be that it would be, well, look, you've got to go beyond the norm. And so you've got to sell and negotiate at the same time. And that's very nuanced. That does take a bit more of an experienced negotiator because you oversell by making assumptions and statements. And they don't see the value the way you do well, then you've made the deal worse or you're back to square one. But if you don't explain and frame it enough, they can't see the value potential. So again, they're going to stick with what they have.

This is very, very, very high level. I love the fact that you brought in, the fact that sometimes in order to be successful we have to sell and negotiate at the same time and be able to oscillate from one position to another. So we have to be able to communicate effectively what's in it for them so they can actually be more bought in while at the same time protecting and defending our interests. And this question that you suggested, I've never really thought of it that way, but it's a question that sparks collaboration. I think that's brilliant. And simply asking what if? What if we were to try it this way? What if we were to try it that way? It's a type of question that is not going to be seen as a threat to their interests and could invite them to be part of the collaborative problem solving process and think outside the box to figure out what could work for both sides. I think it's really interesting, Mark, because we talk about people say be collaborative all the time, but then how do you actually invite the other person into collaboration? This question, what if we were to try that is such a simple but powerful way to do it. I've never heard it conceptualized that way. I really appreciate that.

Well, you know, I think it's being brave enough to sort of explore that. And look, there are huge caveats to what you are discussing in isolation. You have got to think about, as I said, the context of the environment, the individual or individuals you're speaking with. But if you want to sense check the type of negotiation culture that your counterpart is immersed in, then that question and one similar very quickly will give you that insight. If it's simply a no, under no circumstances would we entertain X. Then you know that you're in an environment that is less collaborative than you'd like, or indeed a competitive one, and then you've just got a more open decision to make for yourself about where you want to go with this. And if you're going to continue, then as I say, it's about not being naive. It's then looking at it through a slightly different lens of value potential. But if you've got a culture, let's say that is much more, is much looser and sort of more egalitarian, more low power in how it operates Then some of those things are also signals you could look out for that suggest that there's much more latitude in how they want to do business and they've potentially got a more risk tolerant culture within the business. But as I say, individuals listening to this will know whether they're working in an environment which is very, very risk averse, which means a lot of planning for different, for a different avenue of value creation, or they're in, you know, they're in a much more sort of looser environment where perhaps you've got a lot more latitude to make some of these, these decisions and go down avenues that maybe you wouldn't usually. But to me it's thinking about it through a cultural lens that's helped a lot of our clients to look at this a lot more dispassionately and get a lot more, get a lot more opportunity created than thinking that being obtuse, you know, because, because it's a tactic that they have also learned. Because I've learned that tactic and I'm now just being obtuse as well. You know, it's saying, well, what if you've got this wrong? And what if it's the culture in which they're operating that says, listen, we'd love, you know, we'd love to do that, but we're in a culture that won't allow us because our KPIs are dollars and cents, pounds and pence, Euros and cents and nothing else. So without getting too far off the point you brought up, it's just about opening up your own perspective as a negotiator to say, am I in an environment where collaboration could even be possible? And then how far down that collaboration sort of journey are they able to go with us? And it's just a series of questions that take you down that, that road and sometimes it'll be not very far at all. And, and sometimes you get opportunities for real alliance to be, you know, to be created. And we've got a client we're doing that with, you know, just now actually, which are for, for discretionary reasons I won't mention. But you know, they're a global brand and they're considering, you know, their options in terms of how they roll out negotiation to the next generation of, of their sales teams. And they're very open to the idea of doing it differently. You know, they want to be able to offer a lot more for their customers. So it's a great conversation and a lot of the work we do with them at the moment is in discovery. It is in that. Right. What are the motivation, what are the drivers? We're not even talking about breakpoints yet or planning our moves or any of that. It's just trying to understand what the clients and customer want and really digging into that.

Mark, this is so good. I. I wish I could keep going, but I know Kaya is going to knock on the door in a second.

No problem.

But this, this has been great. And before you go, remind the listeners again about new beginnings and how they can get in touch with you.

Sure thing, Kwame. Appreciate it. It's great to have the conversation with you at the time. Always goes so quickly. We are@newbeginningsconsultation.com we also have LinkedIn. You know, I'm at. The URL is the culture Navigator. And we also have our E Learning platform, which is being, well, actually has been launched, but again, that can come through the website. We are also, excuse me, in the middle of launching our Culture Navigator learning management system. That's a whole other conversation, but I'm around on LinkedIn. If they know you, love you, follow you, I'm not far behind, so they'll find us there.

I love it, man. I appreciate it. And thanks again for coming and sharing your expertise. Always an honor and a pleasure to promote you and your work. It is exceptional. So thank you.

Kwame, keep doing what you're doing, man. Loving it. Take care out there.

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