The Power of Compassionate Curiosity: Reverse Interview featuring Steve Beck

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Kwame, good to see you. Good to see you. We meet again.

Yes. How have you been?

Great.

I want to give them an opportunity to be reintroduced to you. So I think it makes sense to start off with your introduction for yourself and then we could just flow from there.

Yeah, I'm a coach. I started out in the conflict resolution space and now doing long term culture transformation work in small and mid sized business. Having hard conversations is crucial to any healthy culture. You know, we get into other things besides that kind of culture. Coaching in small and mid sized businesses with an expertise on helping people have difficult conversations that they need in order to move the mission forward.

Love it. Love it. And everybody, by the time this episode comes out, Steve's first episode will have come out. I encourage you all to check that out because it was, it was exceptional. So this is an honor and a privilege for me to be interviewed by the Steve Beck. And let me tell you, Steve, for a Buckeye to say the. Introducing somebody as a the like that, that means something. So I hope you recognize that.

All right, all right. Received and heard. Thank you so much. Okay, so let's start with again, referencing Some of the great takeaways I had from hard conversations about race. I mean, one of the line, you can't solve a problem if you can't talk about a problem. Okay. And you recognize in there that most of us have not been trained in how to have difficult conversations. We learned by experience for good or for bad, you know, but there hasn't been, you know, most of us received a lot of training. And on top of that, not only have we not received training, but it occurs to me most of us, probably all of us, have had adverse experiences attempting in earlier years difficult conversations that didn't go well. So that increases the fear and the challenge. And culturally, we're in a time where a lot of the mainstream platforms are doing the things that are very antithetical to having productive conversations about hard things. So where I want to go is just if we can assume that's a shared understanding of some of the challenges in our context of doing a good job with hard conversations. One of the principles that comes through loud and clear in that book is the idea of compassionate curiosity. Okay. And where I really like to think about today is scaling compassionate curiosity. Okay. Because. And that's for me, I kind of work on a micro level. But I see you've been done a pretty effective job at scaling. I mean, you and the team at ANI have reached millions. And so practitioner to practitioner, like, how to. This is like an episode. So for the practitioners, how do we help each other do work at scale to really be an alternative to the polarization and demonization in the culture and how we provide that encouragement and training for people who really want to do better, which I believe is a lot of people, but they need the resources. So let's talk about scaling compassionate curiosity, starting with why don't you tell. You know, for the sake of listeners, just remind what is compassionate curiosity and why is it important to what we're into now?

Yeah, great question. It's so compassionate curiosity is an approach to difficult conversations that helps you to negotiate from the inside out. And so it's three steps. First step is acknowledge and validate emotions. Second step is get curious with compassion. And third step is joint problem solving. So you can turn this internally to use that as a tool of self reflection, emotion management, proper decision making, and sometimes bias reduction. So what you're going to do is you're going to acknowledge your own beliefs, feelings, conclusions, or whatever it happens to be. So you're going to label it for yourself, because in psychology you have to name it to tame it. When you actually label the emotion, it calms you down. We can get into the psychology later if you want to, but just trust me for now on that. And so we're going to say I feel upset, I feel sad, I feel like this person isn't the right choice, whatever it happens to be. We're going to label those things. Then we're going to get curious with self directed compassion and ask compassionate questions to ourselves. What is leading me to feel this way? How do I know this is true? What are my biggest concerns? Those type of things. Then as we get more clarity within ourselves, then we move on to the third step, which is joint problem solving. And internally it is reconciling the differences between our hearts and minds. So what is it that would satisfy me emotionally and what would satisfy me actually in the real world? What should I actually do? And so that gives you clarity for the conversation then with the other person. Same frameworks apply the same way, acknowledge and validate their emotions, get curious with compassion, asking those open ended questions. And then joint problem solving is collaborative negotiation. But it gives you that framework that you can flow so you can know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact.

Fantastic. At the heart of that, you know, it's kind of the idea, as I hear it, is I'm not going to listen to you very well if I don't feel like you've listened to me. You know, we all want to be seen and to be heard, to be understood. And that's kind of the necessary soil, if you will, for fertile conversation. And so you point out those are not difficult principles to understand from a conceptual standpoint, but quite counterintuitive in the implementation. So where do you see particularly the challenges of implementing that which are pretty simple principles, right? Make sense intellectually, Very challenging to implement, particularly when emotions are escalating. Where do you see the challenge there? You know, kind of big challenges with implementing.

The biggest challenge, Steve, is that we want to do it in the moment. Because the reality is we focus so much on the emotions of the other side that we fail to consider the emotionality that we have. Because in the moment we can't tell the difference between facts and feelings. When the heat is on, they blend, right? And so we can feel really justified in attacking or being aggressive or being defensive. Doesn't change the fact that is antithetical to our ultimate goal in the conversation. And so what we're really doing is creating a system of productive but at the same time unnatural responses. When you think about it, fight, flight, freeze, Typical fear responses. It's not empathize. That's not a natural response. Right. So we have to recognize that a lot of times in the moment, as we're starting to develop this new habit of meaningful engagement in these conversations, it will feel a little bit clunky, it will feel uncomfortable. And there will have to be that internal negotiation to manage your own emotions and put your ultimate goal at the forefront, and that'll lead you to start making these right decisions. But again, it takes practice, because under duress, your emotions will hold you back from doing the right thing.

Fantastic training, practice, some support in the process, being willing to fail and learn as you go along. Super good. So I have experienced that in a micro, like any individual conversation. And you can work with parties who are truly, you know, they have good intent, they're trying to learn, and you can get some traction.

There's.

I've experienced that many times when I think about scaling that. And you talk about, at the end of your book, you talk about leverage, the idea of leverage, positive, negative, and societal leverage. And particularly what I have in view for this conversation is that societal leverage, like improving the ability to have conversations at scale. Okay. And you talk about the grassroots power of the people, kind of just growing numbers of people who are understanding how to do this and committed to the at times uncomfortable and difficult challenge of getting better at it. Like, at scale, a movement. And I'm like, that is so far removed from what I have been able to, you know, to do. But I look at you, you know, the A and I team have touched millions of people, literally. I mean, it's fantastic. And the thing I'm curious about is, like, you had to learn things. In the book, you referenced a certain playground experience when you were a kid coming into this country. And you describe the impact of that as like, you know, you became a people pleaser and deathly afraid of conflict. So that's. If we look to your early beginnings trauma, very adverse experience you experienced as a kid, and to touching the lives and improving the lives from a conversational and healing standpoint for millions of people. Like, I got to hear this story, man. I got to hear the journey. We could spend the rest of the day and you wouldn't get into all of it. But what would you say about milestones in the journey from like that begin to where you come to now in terms of building this thing out? Let's start with the earliest phases and when you got a sense that, you know, the shift from fear to like, I want to learn to do better. I want to lean in myself personally to having courage and having better conversations.

Yeah, it's been a wild journey, but really exciting and I think it's interesting. I think everybody should look at themselves as the author of their own lives. Every day we wake up, we're starting to write a new chapter, right. And when you look back, you are empowered when you think about it through this lens because you can give meaning to, to past experiences. And so for me, when I think about my origin story, when it comes to difficult conversations, it was that playground experience. So for the audience, if you're not familiar. So I'm a first generation Caribbean American, that's from a small island called Dominica, mom is from Guyana. When I moved, when we were moving to Tiffin, Ohio, small town in Ohio, rural town, there wasn't very much diversity. I shared the statistics in the book. It's mind boggling what the diversity statistics were at that time. The joke I would always say is that there were only 5, 4 black people in Tiffin. Me, my mom, my dad, my brother. And so at the beginning we had, my parents had accents, I had an accent and it was hard to fit in. And so I remember in first grade there was one incident on the playground. And so this will just stick in memory forever. I would go to a different group of friends, I would walk up to some friends and I'll say, hey, can I play with you? And they said no. And then I walked to another group of friends, I said, hey, can I play with you? And time was running out, so I was getting desperate and I said, hey, can I play with you? To a new set of friends. And they said no too. And so I tried really hard to keep it together. And when I went into the school, I just busted up crying, just could not contain the sorrow and the hurt. And my teacher said, what's wrong? And I said, nobody would play with me. She gave this speech saying, no, we need to play with people. You can't let people be lonely, those type of things. But for me, I wanted to, with my six year old mind at the time, I wanted to take control of the situation. I said, I will personally never allow myself to feel this way again, ever again. Everybody's going to be my friend, people are going to like me. I'm going to figure this out. So by the end of grade school, through high school, I became the most popular kid in school. I knew everybody by name. And when you have a graduating class of 55, it's not that many people. No, right. It was about 200 people in the high school. Steve, Literally every person by name understood I was going by out of my way to be that friendly, nice guy. But it came at a consequence. There was a price to it because for me, it made it really hard for me to stand up for myself when I disagreed. So I would always agree, no matter what. I wanted to go with the flow because I didn't want to jeopardize the friendships that I worked so hard to create. And so I recognized in college I had these bigger dreams. At the time I wanted to go into politics. Don't worry, I will not. We all have our childish aspirations. I will never do that to myself or my family. But so that explains the degree combination. Because I had a psychology degree, but then I have my law degree and a master of policy. One of my mentors said he recognized this tendency in me and he said, kwame, you have to recognize that there's a big difference between being liked and being respected. You want to accomplish a lot and you're not going to get there with this mentality. And so that's what really put me on this journey. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Wow. And the alternative, I mean, so he said, this way of operating is not going to help. What are you need to do instead?

He said, I'm going to have to. I'm going to have to become okay with conflict. I need to lean into these difficult conversations and recognize that people aren't always going to agree. And that really forced me to look at myself a little bit more critically because I had big dreams. I wanted to have a positive impact on a lot of people. And I realized that the dreams that I had and the impact that I wanted to have, it was greater than the comfort that I got. And I realized that it wasn't going to be easy and it wasn't going to be comfortable, but it was definitely necessary. So it forced me to start to lean into These tough conversations. And have these tough conversations. And then when I got to law school, this is where it really becomes interesting because we had these. Well, first, how to get into negotiation. I stumbled upon it because it fit into my schedule. It was like a two credit hour course, just one week, but really condensed five days, eight hours just going at it. And I don't even think the term negotiation was anywhere in my consciousness at the time in any meaningful way. So I just took course and I fell in love because it showed me that it was a skill, not a talent. I could actually get better. And so I just became obsessed with it. And I started to do really well in those negotiations, those simulations in class. So they had this negotiation competition. And my partner and I, we won the competition at the law school just because we outworked people. We would spend hours preparing and going back and forth. We called them sparring sessions, which is now, that's crazy. It's not until just now that I realized we have these episodes that we call them sparring sessions. And that's where I got the term from law school. And so we won the competition at the law school. And then we represented the school at the American Bar association competition in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that too. So for me, I was blown away. I became obsessed because for me, it was so empowering.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to find a way to make sure other people could feel that.

Yeah, that's amazing, man. So what I'm hearing, like one, it's obviously deep in your heart to you want to have a positive impact in the world. You know, we all want our lives to matter. We all want our lives to have meaning. And that was deep in you. I want to have a positive impact. And then you had a mentor who said, okay, if you want to do that, there is not a pathway to that that does not involve conflict and the ability to work through it. And you took that to heart. And how I'm hearing what you just told is like that negotiation piece, that class maybe connected those dots, is like, okay, I want to have an impact. I'm going to have to do conflict. I'm not super comfortable with it. But then when you realize it's a skill, it's not a unique gifting of an individual. Like, we all have temperaments, personalities, whatever certain experiences may predispose us one way or another. But this concept, it is a skill that can be learned and built in the same way you develop expertise, any discipline, violin, dance, guitar, you know, performing art, you know, law, any field of expertise Expertise, conflict, and having good conversations about hard things is a learnable skill. It's an ability that you can develop. That connection happened for yourself. And then somewhere in the journey, then you know, like, wow, I'm learning. I want to train other people. I want to help other people get better at. To tell us that part of the story. When it shifted to, like, wow, you know, when you really could see, like, the training and skill development piece was tied to your calling or sense of mission to have a positive impact in the world, how did that get combined?

Yeah, that's an exciting transition, and I don't think I've fully explored that. This'll be revelatory for me, too. So for me, it was. Every time I negotiated, it was a vote of confidence for the man I wanted to be. So no matter how tough the conversation, I always appreciated it. I might not have liked it, but I always appreciated the strength I gained from it. So, like I said, I wanted other people to feel that. And when I was in law school, I had the opportunity to do a little bit of speaking at some smaller conferences with other students, and I loved teaching it and seeing people start to get it. When I was building my law practice, that was one of the things that I did. I would put on negotiation trainings in different parts of the city to get more business clients. And so I had to have, again, a little negotiation with myself because I was good at law, it was okay, but I knew my passion wasn't there. And so I just started by asking myself this one question. And what's funny is I asked this question to other people, and it's cool to see the gears start turning. And sometimes just by figuring out the answer to that question, they completely pivot, change their life and do something completely different. What would I do if everything was free? I knew it wasn't law. I spent a lot of time, like, months, thinking about this, Steve. And then I realized that it was those negotiation training that was the most fun I was having. I wasn't getting paid for that, but I was just doing it for fun.

Amazing.

When people got it, I was like, that's it. That is the thing. And what's most refreshing to me is when I think about not just the podcasts and the trainings I do now, but also the trainings in the past. As I was building this and discovering this passion for teaching, I realized, wow, people would say, this has been great. I can definitely see how this would change my business, how I can make more money, how I can resolve conflicts and everything But I could use this with my spouse. I could use this with my kids, my family. Right. And once I started to get that type of feedback, I was like, oh, this is a game changer. Yeah, this could change the world. So that's what really fed that transition.

Yeah. Okay, fantastic. And then, so I don't know at what point that transition happened, but talk a little bit about scaling up from those beginnings of realizing, hey, man, man, if money were not the issue, what do I do? If everything were free, man, I want to teach and help other people get better at this, then presumably you had some successes. People, you're seeing a positive impact, and you're like, man, we can grow this. We can scale it. So talk about that, because that's what I'm interested in, like, vision for the scaling, and how can we impact even more people in a way that starts to create that more societal type of leverage with people gaining capacity to do this thing. Yeah.

Now, this part of the journey is really interesting because there's obviously the strategic element. What do we do to. To really make this as big as possible, Reach as many people as we can, because that's the goal. Just constantly increase our footprint.

Yeah.

And spread the message. So there's a strategic element of that, but there's also a personal element as well, because there is a mindset shift that had to happen. There are multiple mindset shifts that had to happen for a long time. And I think this is kind of tied to when I was younger, too. I didn't want to stand out. I felt really uncomfortable standing out. Yeah. And so I didn't feel comfortable kind of putting myself out. I didn't feel comfortable blowing it up. And you wanted to change the world, Kwame? Yeah, I want to change the world. Great. So you need to talk to a lot of people. A lot of people need to know about you. Yeah, you're going to get there. And so I had to really become a little bit more comfortable with putting myself out there on LinkedIn with the podcast and everything like that. And I remember one time, there were two things that made me realize that I was doing something wrong. So one time I went to a wedding, and this is probably about eight months after I started the podcast, and it was with friends from law school, and I was talking to them, and they're like, oh, what have you been up to? And I mentioned to a number of them, oh, yeah, I started a podcast. They're like, you started a podcast? I had no idea. Okay, Steve, that's on me. That's My fault. My insecurities were holding me back. And then one time a listener reached out to me on LinkedIn. He said, Kwame, I've been listening to the podcast for, like, a year. Got a weird question for you. What is it that you actually. What do you do? You're a lawyer, is a. And I is at a law firm, or do you do coaching? What do you do? So people didn't even know how I could help them. I was so uncomfortable sharing that because I. I tricked myself into thinking it was humility, but it was really insecurity in disguise. And so that was a. Helped me to realize, okay, I need to be more comfortable producing more content, sharing more about what I was doing on LinkedIn and other social media platforms, and not being uncomfortable sharing the successes, too, but because I realized that inspires a lot of people. Took me a while to be. Be willing to share that. And I think people look at the platform and they're like, oh, yeah, Kwame's really comfortable with this, with the big old podcast and like a hundred thousand follow LinkedIn, but they don't remember five or six years ago when I was silent, just not saying anything. The other thing, too, and this was massive for success, was doing the TED Talk. And it's not just about the fact that it's gotten almost half a million views at this point. It's not the views. It's the mindset shift that had to happen because I had to apply for that one and I had to show up on stage and do my thing. And I got in, and when they were first reviewing my materials, they were. They said, kwame, great information, but it sounds like a lecture or a workshop. I was like, yes, exactly. That's what I'm going for. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that doesn't work. The words you're using are way too big. It's going to go over a lot of people's heads. It sounds too technical. We can tell you have charisma, but you're holding it back for some reason. You need to be more comfortable being yourself, make it more approachable. And I realized that another form of insecurity was I wanted to sound smart. And so I wanted to perform like an academic. But in my sounding smart, I was losing people. So people would say, oh, Kwame, good, that makes a lot of sense, but they wouldn't really attach to it. And so being able to let go of that facade and be more of myself, yeah, that was huge, too.

That's fantastic. A couple of things stand out in that one is like, that's the. Maybe the. If I think back to the playground experience, shall we say, all you want is to fit in. And what you're doing is standing out in a way that you don't want to. And so the corrective is fit in. Don't make waves. You know, be friendly. And then the first iteration, if you will, of like, no, I've got to embrace conflict and get comfortable in my own skin. But then position of scaling means you got to put yourself out there in essence to stand out. Not everyone's going to care. Not everyone's going to like what you're saying. And some people, you know, you have to take it all in a way that is. Doesn't undermine your sense of mission and identity. Identity and who you are. You just understand that's what it's like to operate at scale. So that's powerful. Like, that's a message I need to hear. Like, you are helping me today. Because I know if I'm asking myself, Steve, what is keeping you from scaling? Like that is, as you're saying it, that's something I need to think more deeply about, what is holding me back. So that's fantastic. And also the coaching to like, hey, let's get it in a more accessible vocabulary. You know, help it to put it in terms people can understand. I would say that I don't know timing of that, but I. Presumably your book came after that insight because in reading your book, it is not technical. It's rooted in science and research and everything like the. The academics and the experience are there. But it's super understandable, very easy to read conceptually. So side note, you know, very. Anyone who's interested and wants to read that, like, absolutely do it. Okay. Yeah, man question as a practitioner. So people reach out to you. Okay. And so another quote I lifted from the book. Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. So if your experience is like mine, that's when people might reach out to a third party. You know, I'm in pain. We're stuck. Something's got to change. I've tried everything I know to do. What about this guy Kwame? Maybe he could help. A And I so talk about those first conversations because I find those are. People have an instinct that they need help, but at the same time, it's very sensitive subject matter, very difficult situation. They don't maybe know you very well. They've heard of you, and you have to. There's some trust Building and some communication that has to happen between people knowing they need some help and then deciding, are you the person that they're going to invite in and trust with this very important situation. So tell me about those type of conversations. How does that go for you?

Yeah, well, at first we have to start off with normalizing that experience for people because I think it can be a little bit almost shameful or embarrassing when you recognize, oh, there's some problems in my organization. So for you, you work with small and mid sized companies, then the people who are in there probably feel a greater sense of ownership over the company. The leader is probably still there to a certain extent as well. And so it could be. They could almost feel like it's a personal indictment of them, like, wow, you created something toxic, you must be toxic too. That's not how toxic genetics work. It doesn't necessarily work like that. Just human relationships are complex and it happens. And I think letting people know that what they're experiencing is normal and other people have dealt with this and they have gotten over this, I think that helps them to lean in a little bit more and be a little bit more open. And I think a lot of times we can be again going back to being so technical that we forget the human element. It's like, oh yeah, this is the problem you're presenting with. You can do this and the other. And we almost seem like a cold doctor who comes in and treats you just like a case study. And so starting off by normalizing that experience and letting them know that they are still okay, this is not an indictment of who they are as a person. And there is a path forward.

Yeah.

That goes a long way with letting them feel a little bit more comfortable and safe in that interaction.

Yeah. So normalizing it and you're able to. Because that, I think that's another common experience. Someone's in really in a, in a pretty deep mass and it's complex and it's on top of them and they're. There's probably some shame of admitting how bad things are and they're reaching out. But when you can say, oh yeah, I, this is very normal, solvable problems. And we've addressed this many times, it begins to inject. I know your phrase hope is not a strategy, but in a very strategic way, you're reintroducing a form of hope, not wishful thinking, not pie in the sky, not like blow out the candles on a birthday cake or you know, a wish and a pray. But I actually hope that's grounded in A straight like, yes, this is common problems. They are solvable, and I think I can help you work through it. So you're creating that and say, okay, we're going to give it a try. So with what we have left in terms of time, just say, like, okay, you get inside. You know, you have an opportunity to start working with people. I got a kind of a list of challenges that I face, probably anyone who's a practitioner in the space is facing. And just we can just do quick hits on your kind of some quick coaching on these tough elements. Let's start with what I will call the burden of conversational leadership. Okay. And I frame it that way. It comes out in the book is like, man, regardless of what your conversational partner is doing, if you want to live into your own values, like, you have to keep leaning into that empathy to that understanding. You have to resist the urge to retaliate and escalate and all of us reach that, like, we can. If you learn enough to get past, like, okay, I'm going to give it a try, then you're giving it a try. You kind of dig in, like, you give it a few goes and the other person is not playing this by the same rules. Right. And so that. But to stay in, like I say, I'm going to continue to respond in a way that gives the opportunity for something healthy to happen regardless of what the other person does. What do you hear is, it's not fair. Like, I'm done. I'm not going to keep doing this. They're not playing the same game. So that tension between you want to still hold integrity to how you want to show up. And there are times where there's kind of a boundary that needs to be set. But that's a very difficult thing to kind of see because everybody say, well, I'm going to humble myself if he humbles himself. I will do this if they do it in return. But so the burden of leadership, like, someone has to lead. Someone has to set the tone. Talk about, you know, quick coaching on how do you do that in a way to, like, you know, live with integrity, the values, and also know, you know, how to, you know, maintain some approach, appropriate emotional boundaries within that as well.

Yeah. And I think first, again, we have to normalize the fact that it is hard. It's hard. I feel the same angst that other people do because I don't want to do the right thing. A lot of times, yeah, it'd be a lot easier to tell somebody how horrible they are and then walk off and feel like a winner. Right. But you have to stay focused on your ultimate goal. And so I think a great example comes from parenting. This is fresh in my mind. I need to offload this, Steve. So we have, I have a seven year old Kai, and then two year old Dominic has some attitude. Okay, okay. So for me as a parent, one of the, it's weird the things that you have to teach kids, like, you're not born with that. You didn't get that downloaded automatically. So brushing their teeth has always been challenging when the toddler stage, because what they'll do is they'll just brush you brush their teeth and they eat the toothpaste. And I'm like, no, you have to spit it out. And then all Dominic would do is essentially say the letter T to sound like he's spitting, like. But if nothing comes out, the last year, I'm trying, come on, man, just stop eating all of this toothpaste. And so one night, I think it was last week, he was having a massive temper tantrum. And so I'm brushing his teeth and then he turns and looks at me and spits directly in my face. Do the right thing. So my expression didn't change. I took a deep breath, I finished brushing his teeth and I put him to bed. Right?

Yeah.

And so for me, it's a good reminder because it only takes one person to improve the quality of the relationship. If I turn into a toddler too now we're both in bad shape, right. I can't return the favor to 2 year old. But in reality, nobody's going to treat me like that as an adult. And the indignities that I have as a parent probably won't manifest themselves in the business world. And so for me, I think about, I try to think strategically about just everything through life. There's a great quote by Kobe Bryant. He said, when you're obsessed with your craft, the world becomes your library. Beautiful. And so when you're constantly looking at opportunities to grow and hone the skill, you'll find it. That's the cool thing because for most parents, they just think about it as, this is the worst night of the week. But for me, I think about it in terms of, man, this will be a great story someday as I'm conveying a message. And so for me, we have to kind of play these games with ourselves because I say, all right, this is a really tough conversation. I trust the skills and the process, and when I make it through, it'll be a hell of a story. You Know, and so you have to, you have to have your why I'm a teacher. So I like looking at it through that lens. If we're thinking about it through change management because that you're having all those tough conversations. You, you recognize, oh, the mission of this company is really important. And even though this person is acting up and being very disrespect, I care about the mission. I'm going to focus on that.

Right.

And so we have to have a North Star that keeps us focused and that helps us to stay on the path and carry that burden of conversational leadership.

I love that, man. And just orienting around your highest goals, your highest desires, because let's face it, you know, I have a North Star and I have other competing desires that will sabotage my commitment to my North Star. And so fact is that some of these tough conversations I have the North Star of I want to show up, I want to treat people with respect, I want to communicate well no matter what. And something gets said a certain way and I want to retaliate also. I want that too. I want them to pay. I want them to know they've hurt me, whatever, you know, so I have to like say, okay, that's there. I have to, you know, back to your principle. Like I need to label that internally within myself. Okay, right now he just spit in my face. I want him to know how not okay, that is. And North Star. Brush the teeth, go to bed, Tomorrow's another day.

Bingo.

I will be in my more rational self and then maybe we can talk. So that's fantastic. Time for another one?

Yeah, let's do it, man. I'm having fun.

Identity morality, you know, so you reference it. Discussions about race draw strongly on. On strongly beheld beliefs. And about identity, who we are and morality, what it means to be a good or bad person could substitute other things for race. So the really polarized issues in our time, right, There's a lot of identity immorality at stake. And you overlay that with cancel culture. And so these identity markers, like they are just like you identify in a certain way, you know, that's a deal breaker right there. We are just not going to talk. And so if we haven't found any ways you have any traction at all where there's that level of polarization. And again, identities as formed, you're not just personal, but it's identities. And these are formed in community of shared narratives that create these identities and moralities. And so anything, any traction that invites people try a different way. Because the polarization is like, I'm demonizing you. No way am I going to talk to them. I know what he's about. And so, you know, so the first has to be just the imagination that we could attempt a conversation and maybe something different can happen. Are you getting any traction on that front?

Yeah, it's tough. That's tough because it goes back to belief. Right. We have to believe it's possible. And so it's funny, Steve, just as an aside, there's so many times in the book where I was writing these things and I'm like, man, this is the one. This is the one where I get canceled.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That hasn't happened yet. I introduced this concept called helpful fictions in the book. It is something that may not be true, but I choose to believe it because it's helpful to me.

Yeah.

And so for me, I believe that I can connect with and persuade anybody. And it's a mentality that's similar to Michael Jordan because Jordan says, I've never lost a game. I've just run out of time. So he believes in his heart of arts. If you just let that time run, I will eventually win. And so for me, with my difficult conversations, no matter who the person is or what the scenario is, I trust my skills and the process enough. And I say, if you just give me enough time, I'll break through. And it has to start with that belief. And a lot of times we start the conversation off at the wrong side place. We start the conversation off on where we disagree. It's like, hey, Steve, these are the reasons I hate you. It's like, wow, how do we get. How do we achieve something positive or productive when we're starting off at that place of disagreement? And so I like to take a step back and figure out big picture. Where do we agree? It is almost literally impossible for you to interact with a person where you don't have any overlap of any type of goal. Right. Especially when we're talking about these difficult conversations. Unless you're having a conversation with like, like a neo Nazi or something like that most likely person has some level of reasonableness within them. You're in the same organization, your family or friends. There's some point where you can agree. So let's take a second and zoom out. Where do you see the direction of the country going? What would you like to happen? Most likely we can agree on things like peace and prosperity in general when we think about the organization. Well, let's take a step back. Let's focus on our Mission. And so what do you think the mission is? Yeah, I agree. I agree. The mission is this. What are the things that can get in the way of that? I agree. What are some things we can do? Great. And so we start off with some positive momentum. And so I'm not going to. I'm intentionally going to address. I am going to intentionally navigate the conversation in a way to not trigger challenges for identity or morality. I don't want the person to get defensive because they feel like I need to define. I need to defend who I am as a person or people like me, or I need to defend who I am as a good person.

Right.

And so every once in a while, when I recognize that there's a level of defensiveness, I usually. When I'm hypothesizing where that comes from, it's usually one of those two things. Their identity feels threatened or they feel like I'm insinuating that they're a bad person. Right, right. And so at that point, I'll give them an emotional payment. I'll say something like, hey, Steve, before we continue, I just want to say you're somebody that I have a lot of respect for, and we've worked together for a long time. And so I don't want you to feel as though I'm trying to attack or say that you're a bad person. That's not it at all. I just trust you to have this convers with me to figure out where we can go forward and how we can move past this and what we can do to make sure we don't find ourselves in this situation. Every time I see the conversation starting to get defensive or aggressive or anything, my assumption is the frame of this conversation is changing. This is no longer a collaborative conversation. We're working together to solve the problem where this has become a narrative of you versus me, where I need to protect myself from you while at the same time attacking you. Right. And so whenever I see the conversation, like the tone or tenor of the conversation going in that negative direction, not talking substance at all, I'm going to reframe the conversation, take a step back and say, hey, remember at the beginning of the conversation, we talked about how we ultimately are playing for the same team and want the same thing. That's why I'm having this conversation.

Yeah. So labeling those emotions, like, get, you know, leaning back into that empathy and understanding in the context and how I heard this is like. Like that imagination is one of the big casualties of conflict. Right. And you lose the imagination that something could be different. And therefore, part of the job is rekindling. Almost like, you don't have to tell me that you believe it's possible. What if. You know, just rekindling an imagination for a better way of working together or talking. So introducing. At least. Even if they take it as fantasy and fiction, at least it's an imagination. What if. And like, hey, let's give it a try. I have some ideas how we might be able to get there. And if you can get. Keep people into that. So I love it. One more, if you will. And this could be quick. Is you emphasize. And this is another experience I have, you probably had is like, people are in pain, all right? And they finally reach out for help, and then they want help, and they want it now. And then you come in and say, okay. And they're envisioning a big intervention. That we're going to have the talk. You know, we're going to have this out. And then you come with the message of like, well, we can't put too much pressure on one conversation. We got to lean into a long. And it's an incremental, iterative approach. Okay, so that's what I heard in the book, and that's my experience. That is not just when you were building trust and just when they were starting to believe you could help them. Then you tell them, it's going to be a long game. And, like, I'm done. What are you telling me? It's going to be a long game. So how do you navigate that? People who are exhausted, I mean, they are. It's on top of them, you know, and it's a bad situation. They want it resolved. Right now there's so much frustration and pain. And then you say, it's going to take a while.

While.

How do you navigate that with P2. Get. Help them recover energy for a longer play.

It's tough because burnout is real. Because we. Let's not forget we have responsibilities at home, with our family. We have the reality that adulting in general is hard no matter what your family dynamics are. It's challenging. Then we talk about work. Most people talk about the fact that they feel too busy, overworked, and burnout from that. And now on top of it, we want to start having these difficult conversations about sensitive issues and then changing the future of the company into a direction that we're not exactly sure what it looks like. Even us as the professionals who are trying to steer the conversation and steer the direction, we don't know what the final iteration looks like, we know it might look better, but we don't know exactly what it is. And humans crave certainty and we're offering them is hope of potential, something that's better, but we can't guarantee it. And so sometimes you can make like a playful joke that's both realistic and while at the same time humorous. I'll say, hey, Steve, listen, if I wanted to take your money inappropriately, I'd tell you exactly what you want to hear. I'd have one big intervention. And then I'll say, hey, you're good. And if you're not, it's your fault. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

But I'm telling you something that you don't want to hear because I care about you and this is the way that I believe it would work. And so I think when you frame it in terms of a statement of against interest, when they start to recognize it is not in my best interest to tell you this, but I'm still telling you this because I genuine believe it. Once they hear it framed in that way, then they start to be more willing to accept.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And it's very validating because I, you know, early on, you know, when your early career, like, you want to get gig, you want to be helpful and you, and probably overly optimistic, at least I was of what you can accomplish in a short amount of time. And that was one of the big transition decisions for me, is realizing, man, this stuff takes time and I should just be totally upfront like, you want help now, but this is going to take a while. There's a lot of money to be made by promising a quick fix. But in this category of work, it's. There's just not quick solutions because there's skills training, there's courage, there's a lot of trial and error. It takes, it's a process so good for you and it validates. It's a slow approach to building business. It's a slower approach to getting people results, but it has a lot of integrity in this space in particular. Just, just. That's tends to be the way it plays out. So, man, I love this. Great takeaways, man, I hope this is great. Other practitioners who are listening in today, like, I hope you really get, you know, just the sense of like, with some of the common themes that have been addressed. I know it's like we're in this together. We're on different missions in one way, but all with kind of a shared sense of like, man, we can do better, we can help people do better. These Are learnable skills helping people who are trying to do a good thing in the world world from getting derailed because of solvable people issues and we just have to learn how to talk more effectively. So. You're amazing man. This is fantastic. Have the opportunity you. This is so good. It's golden. And just thanks for the opportunity for the reverse podcast interview today. I've loved it and thank you for welcoming me in.

Yeah, man, you were great. You were great. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate this and I hope the listeners got a lot out of this. And listen, Steve, I'm not going to let you go without giving yourself another shout out. So let the listeners know again about your company and the work that you do and how, how they can get in touch.

Yeah, it's just me at the moment. Solo practitioner doing this thing working with small mid sized business. I have a website, csteve beck.com, the letter C, the initial, the letter csteve beck.com. you can find me there and reach out through the website if you're interested in following up.

Love it, Steve, I appreciate you man. Thank you.

Take care.

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