The Power of Emotions in Negotiations: Unleashing Success with Dr. Ali O'Malley

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Allie, thanks for joining us today.

I am so happy to be here with you. Kwame, I've missed you.

Yes, I've missed you too. And thank you for accepting the invite. And how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Happily. I am a business psychologist by training, so what that means is I apply the science of work in my work as an executive coach. And I've been doing this work for about 20 years, really thinking about the science of leadership, motivation, feedback and then exploring that through work with hundreds of leaders. Maybe they're first time people leaders, maybe they're a seasoned executive, maybe they're an academic transitioning to something new. I love doing that work and bringing that coaching identity, letting go of the expertise and just supporting these incredible humans and doing the hard work of being human.

Oh, I love this and it's a great answer. And my friend, you are very humble because yes, you are a business psychologist and yes, you do the executive coaching, but there's so much more. Can you let them know about your new company?

Yes, I appreciate you asking. I recently founded a practice called Reflection Group which is celebrating the power of critical reflection, creating the space in a world that can often create relentless pressure for action. How can we pause and reflect on what we've done, where we've been and where we want to go next, and how we want to be when we get there. So that's what Reflection Group is doing with individuals, groups and teams. I think that there is so much promise in thinking about coaching at the team level so that we can really efficiently create desirable patterns of behavior that cascade through the organization.

I love it. Yes. This is great. And Ali, this is a long time coming. We've had a lot of psychology nerdy conversations offline. Indeed.

Indeed.

I'm really glad to bring this to the audience. So today there is so much to talk about. But before the interview, I asked you what it was that was giving you the most energy right now, and I loved your answer. And that's what we're going to go with the episode. And so can you tell the listeners a bit about that, too?

Yes. So from an energy standpoint, I've been exploring with a lot of my clients this idea of how emotion, how we can think about it as a really bouquet of experience. And so what on earth I mean by that is that often people can try to run from emotions like fear, anxiety, disappointment, and run toward purely the happiness, the joy, the passion. I celebrate the positive emotions, and yet I also want to create space to celebrate the negative. That's signaling to us what's important, what matters, what might be awry, so that we can pay attention to the full spectrum of human emotional experience and appreciate it. We can stop and smell the roses, so to speak, but just pay attention to all that we're feeling without shying from it.

This is great. And it's so important. Here's an example, too, because I always want to speak to skeptical people in the audience where they're like, oh, emotions. I don't want to hear about it. So when I was presenting a couple of weeks ago and it was a room full of real estate agents and real estate brokers, I did this little poll and I said, okay, which is more difficult for you? Negotiation strategies and tactics or handling the emotions? It was 96.7% said it was handling the emotions. And that's the thing. If you are struggling with emotion management, then you're going to struggle mightily with conflict management if you can't manage your own emotions or the emotions of others.

Beautiful. I love that. And for some reason, as you were describing that experience that the game Hot Potato came into mind. And I think we can have this temptation to think of emotions like a hot potato, just like, oh, gotta pass it, gotta get rid of it. And yet, let's just play the game. You know, what am I feeling? What is this showing me? What is this signaling? And just earlier today, talking to some leaders I support in an MIT executive education program, we were talking about emotion in get ready for this Kwame negotiation context and this idea that their beliefs about what anger does in emotion. And we both are in negotiation and knowing that that often works against them. Disappointment, now that has a lot more potential there for garnering positive outcomes. And then if we expand to think about positive moods, well, that's contagious. It's the most beautiful form of contagion. And what can that create when we really want to unleash mutual gains? So love talking about emotion and embracing it rather than running from it.

Yes, and let's talk about that too, because I can hear listeners say, okay, Allie, embracing all emotions. But here's the thing. Feeling bad feels bad. So I want to stop feeling bad as quickly as possible. And so person out there who says, I often do run from negative emotions and I enjoy that, I don't want to feel that. Tell them about the value that it has.

Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the most big sigh that just came out there, and here's why there was a big sigh, it's that we are so stinking hard on ourselves so much of the time and there is so much need for self compassion, which is this idea that we treat ourselves as we would treat a very dear one, someone beloved to us. For some reason, that's often very hard to do. And with how self compassion connects to what you were just talking about, is this not feeling good? It creates the opportunity for us to distinguish noticing how we're feeling and judging ourselves for how we're feeling. A lot of that pain that you named comes from the judgment, the voice in our head. Call it an inner critic. Call it what you like. That's there castigating us for. Get over it. Why are you still feeling bad? Come on, you know better you should be happy because blah, blah, blah, it's sitting in that judgment rather than just be like, huh, I'm feeling kind of ick right now. What's that about? And being curious rather than judgmental, that's the opportunity is to get curious with why you're feeling the way you're feeling and how might you shift that? That's what we do in coaching. We can focus that from the standpoint of an individual doing their inner work or them getting curious about the emotional vibe in a room. We ultimately want to help leaders create power and energy in a space rather than suck it out and going in a bit of a different direction. But probably know people who suck the energy out of the room.

Yes, we do. It's so funny because I'm sure, as you were saying, that people were envisioning people in their past who have done that. And it's true. It's like we talked about. Emotional contagion is real.

Yeah.

And it has a significant impact on the quality of our relationships and the quality of our conversations.

Yeah, absolutely. I like to think about often Visualize an organization. Let's say it's a really beautifully woven blanket. What are the fibers that that ingredient or that blanket is woven from? You want something positive and strong to be the base material for the organization. And let's just scratch that. That's, like, way off base.

We'll go, oh, you want to scratch it? I gotta work on that.

Okay, well, I gotta work on that. I was like, I lost my train of thought.

It's all good. And you want to just little aside here. People would be shocked at how many episodes start and stop. It was a great episode. His name was Paul Nadal or Nadal, but he's a Canadian hostage negotiator. We got disconnected, like, five times. It was the weirdest thing. Like, zoom dropped two or three times. Somebody called him through. Do not disturb. Multiple times. Somebody knocked on the door. Weren't even on the phone for so long as we put on the bloopers at the end. But, yeah, don't worry. We start and stop all the time.

Well, thank you, and that's so gracious of you. And I just had this moment of reflection because I'm fine if we share all of this, because I could sit in judgment, be hard on myself for not telling a clean, crisp, immensely intelligent story, or just appreciate that I'm playing with these ideas. Like, ideas are forming in real time, and there was a spark of creativity there, and I'll pick it back up and I'll make something beautiful out of it, even though it wasn't beautiful just then.

Yeah, listen, that's your opinion. Let me tell you, your opinion was wrong, because I was digging it. So keep flowing. Yeah, let's. Simone, keep this in. This is great. We'll just keep this nice and real.

Okay. Thank you.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year. If you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. Yeah, so essentially we're talking about the self, compassion, noting feelings, judging how we're feeling, curious versus judgmental. Get me back on track with the creative point you were just making.

I was riffing on this idea. I love how you put forward the power of emotional contagion. And because emotions are so contagious, it is really important that when we are feeling in that more negative emotional space, whether it's anger, frustration, we're in that noticing, getting curious about it. When you put words to something we know very strongly. There's a lot of research on affect labeling. When you name what you're feeling, it diminishes. That's important, especially for leaders who are given the power they possess. They're often more attention is directed to them. They must be able to regulate so that there's not that negative emotional cascade in a space. It could be a live a room space. It could flow between us. Here I think we have positive emotions flowing, not negative. But the point, the bottom line here is the need to regulate. We have to really understand how we're feeling and not try to suppress it. Just invite in the examination to get in touch with it, regulate it and then have the impact that we want to have on our teams, our board, whomever we are performing in front of to get some desired result.

Yep. I love this point because it's accurate, described it this way. I don't love it because I like that we have to do this. I love it because like you said at the beginning, this is based on science. This is just it is what it is. We do it because it works and that's why we do it. And I know for a long time it was hard for me to accept the value and validity of emotions. I wanted to just try to be super stoic, just march my way through life. And that comes with cost. And the reality is that a lot of times what we're doing by trying to suppress our emotionality was two things. First of all, we're precluding ourselves from the opportunity of deep reflection. Like you said, all emotions, even the negative ones, and sometimes I'd say especially the negative ones, carry that signal of something that we care about, something that matters to us. That's really important for us to know in order for us to just live a good life, but also negotiate effectively. Sometimes we're surprised at the things we care about doesn't change the fact that we do care about it. The second thing is that if we keep on suppressing our emotions, that doesn't mean that we're good at it. Every human will, at some point have emotional leakage or offloading that will come out oftentimes in opportune times. By taking control of it, by accepting who we are and how we're feeling, we are actually putting ourselves back in the driver's seat. By using tools like you said about affect labeling to address that emotionality. And also being mindful of the fact that if our emotions emotional leakage comes out at an in an opportune time, it creates emotional contagion. And now I'm triggered. You're triggered. And this conversation is spiraling downward.

Yes. That's such an elegant framing of how important it is for interaction partners to be talking openly about what they're feeling, what impact they're noticing they're having on each other, and so that we can move forward together rather than be derailing one another. Leaders are not in touch with their emotions in the way that you just described. It's a recipe for derailment, going off track, not having the impact we could have if we were at our best.

Yeah. When it comes to the leaders that you work with, they're performing at a high level. I think you said the group that you're working with now, they're chief operating officers. And when you're talking about this, one of the inescapable realities is the fact that in order to do this well, it requires a little bit of time. And time is that currency that we are most lacking in in the business world. And so if we're a busy professional, how can we do this well, while still performing at a high level, Staying on track while still being very busy.

Yeah. I love this question because I think there's so much opportunity to think everyone in this world to contemplate the value that resides in their time. It is the most precious assets we have. And to be really, really critical in our reflection on how we're spending their time is a wonderful use of time. There are few things scarier to me than when I encounter people being a little bit hyperbolic who say things like, allie, I don't even have time to think. Good news to me. What is happening here? Screeching, halt. What does this mean for your organization? How you lead, how your team is probably scrambling, like just to close your eyes and imagine the scramble that ensues when we have a leader who is in that mindset, I don't have time to think. I just react, react, react. What? And have you encountered someone saying that.

I've been that person. That's the problem.

And what were you like, Kwame? What impact were you having when you were that too busy to think person?

Man, I was stressing everybody out. People didn't know what to do because I was saying we should do this, we should do that, something bad happens. Reacting this way, this way, this way. And then people are like, you've asked us to go in 18 different directions. I don't know what the priority is now I'm stressed out. A lot of times it's because there's too much work on their plate. But oftentimes it's just because it is a manageable amount of work but with no direction, which makes it feel incredibly heavy. So, yeah, I've been that person. When you get into that reactive mode, we often as leaders just think about it in terms of it having a negative impact on us, but we don't think about how it impacts the people on our team.

Absolutely, absolutely. It's back to contagion. And so it's really essential that leaders in particular create space to plan, to engage in critical reflection. What they've observed, what their noticings were for the week, thinking about the time ahead, you've got to carve out that space for it. And a lot of my work with clients is helping them, supporting them in getting to that space where they give themselves permission to reflect, to look back, learn, contemplate. How can I feed that forward into the future? Who do I need to talk to to get a really high quality bits of feedback that I can apply and they can support me as I prepare for what's next. That time for preparation again, going back to the negotiation space. Preparation, so very vital. And we need to prepare for everything. And it takes time to prepare.

Absolutely. And it's funny because we have to prepare strategically and tactically for these conversations, which most people don't take the time to do. We need to do more of that in general, but we also need to prepare emotionally for these conversations as well. So how am I feeling now? How would I want to feel when I'm actually going into these conversations? What is the self work I need to do in order to get to that place? And then on the other side of the during the conversation, what are the things that could trigger me? How can I prepare for that? And then once it does happen, I actually have a plan that I can run into place. And I think That a lot of people listening to this, they'll say, yeah, absolutely, I'll do that, I'll do that. But then they won't. And because once it gets into we have this real world application, we still feel those pressures to perform very, very quickly. Besides just the science, how can we get people to develop a mindset where they're willing to give themselves the grace, time and space to actually prepare?

Yes, I like how we're. We're landing on narrative of planning to perform, planning for peak performance that we can sustain. That's the habit we're building toward with this line of conversation. And I would turn to social accountability. Let people know in your world that you are committed to being less reactive, more thoughtful and deliberate about laying the path, plotting the possibilities for what's next. And we can't do this alone. We can't lead alone. We can't change alone. And so enlist trusted others, team members, partners, signal to the world that surrounds us that I want to be different and I need your help in being different. So if you see me starting to create this cascade of people running around because I'm not thinking anymore, I'm just reacting, please, you have my permission to let me know, give me a signal, say the word. I won't judge you for that. I'm going to thank you for that because you're helping me be better.

Oh, this is good. So actually, this is a great opportunity for us to use some affect labeling. Name it to tame it. Let's talk about how what you said made me feel cognitively. I agree. Yeah, there's nothing I can disagree with now. Emotionally. Didn't like it because I felt really vulnerable. I feel like if I were to do that, it would make me feel really vulnerable. The second thing is that it could take a private failure and turn it into a public failure. Because if people are like, oh, Kwame is just super frenetic all the time, how he is. But if I'm like, I want to be better, and then I am not better than people like, ha failed at it. And I know I'm going to do this. I'm going to give people the permission, so don't worry, I will do this. But I think it's important to call out those feelings because if I'm feeling this, it's likely that somebody else is feeling it. And I want to make sure that we normalize that and let people know, hey, it's okay to feel this way, and it's still okay to do it anyway. Even though you feel that resistance Absolutely.

I really appreciate you going there. And I. Where my mind went in response is this. If we care about learning cultures, about having maintaining growth organizations where people are committed to continually upskilling their knowledge, reconfiguring how they are, who they are, we need to be vulnerable in that way because we have to change. I mean, you and I were just talking about tools such as ChatGPT that essentially, in many ways demand that we upskill. I'm okay with that. So we oughtn't put pressure on ourselves to be perfect people. If we try and pretend that we're perfect right now in the here and now, we're going to get left behind and be irrelevant, out of touch, oh, so fast. So we need to signal how we're working to change so that that cascades through our organizations.

I agree 100% that accountability is really important. And a lot of times people can see us better than we can see ourselves. Because there are times where I think, oh, yeah, I'm feeling a little bit stressed. It's okay, Kwame. Bottle it up. And then people are like, yeah, we can tell something's wrong.

Kwame.

Yeah, you're not fooling anybody.

Absolutely. And there's that. I'm feeling it right now. It feels good to go there. Right. And it's also a great way to learn. How do people respond when we go there? We can learn a lot about each other when we open up in these ways that we're describing.

Exactly. Oh, this is good. This is really, really good. Well, before you go, because we're about at the half hour mark, I want you to give the listeners one simple action item that they can do tomorrow at work or today, if you're listening to it in the morning, when they start to feel that stress, what is one thing that they can do to start to work through it?

Yeah. First off, give yourself the freedom to pause, stop doing the work for a moment. We're not worker bees. You don't have to be hyper worker all the time. Stop the work, pause, breathe, stand up, stretch. Feel your feet on the ground. If you're able to stand, look out the window. If you're able to look out the window, just take a little break and then begin again.

It's so powerful. So powerful. And again, listeners, try this again. For me, I know for a long time, my productivity became my identity. There's still little remnants of that version of Kwame in the back of my head, saying, man, you can't stand up, sit down, stop looking out the window, start working. And I Realized that a lot of times, especially when I get really, really stressed, it's almost I get to the point where I am working only to satisfy my insecurities while knowing that I'm not being very productive. And I think being honest with ourselves, this when we talk about getting your mind ready for peak performance, just sometimes acknowledging your humanity and let's borrow some Carl Rogers speak here. You know you have a human right? So sometimes your human needs to step outside for a little bit. Sometimes your human needs to like just look out the window for 30 seconds and just these little things can do wonders when it comes to emotional regulation. But we're so afraid to take that time to be well sometime. I'm really glad that your piece of advice was so practical and actionable. And really the only thing that can hold you back from doing that is your mentality.

Yeah, absolutely. That is one space where we have control. Let's seize it.

Exactly. Oh, so good. Well, before you go, remind the listeners again about your new company and how they can get in touch with you.

Thanks, Kami. So my new company, it's called Reflection Group Reflex. R E F L E X I O N Group. And please get in touch with me on LinkedIn. That's my favorite space to connect with. People love sharing science based insights and learning about what's important to you. Call me. Thank you for this conversation. It made my day.

My pleasure. Thank you. You were great. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best thing in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later. Yeah. Fill me in.

Oh my gosh. So my first day of solopreneurship was October 1st. Yes. 22. And it has been a roller coaster. My goodness. Right? Just learning who am I now how to focus my energies and knowing that it doesn't make sense to focus on just one thing. There need to be lots of possibilities at all times because, well, A, not an ideal environment, macro environment to be building anew.

True.

And B, I just, I mean, there's so much to take and absorb, and I need context to test and play and experiment. So moving in lots of worlds, but generally very content and happy to see you.

Good. Yes, likewise. Yeah. I tell you, the word you used was perfect. A roller coaster for entrepreneurship. I. I think that's one of the things that was most surprising about it is like, there's no such thing as stability. It's just.

Right. Right. I often talk to the leaders I work with about water rafting, which is kind of funny because I've never gone white water rafting. And yet, as a metaphor, it would be absurd for me to expect smooth, calm waters. I. I signed up for this. I got to ride. I got to enjoy the ride and learn as much as I can from it.

Since we last spoke, it has been quite the roller coaster. But, you know, we're just riding the wave, making it happen. Things are moving forward. And I think. And you. I know you know this. A big part of it is mindset, just looking at everything differently. Okay. Challenges happen, rise to the occasion, deal with it, those type of things. And just shifting perspective, too, because I remember, I realized at the end of the day, I have the privilege of being able to do what I love, and those stresses are a part of it.

Yeah.

So just kind of learning to be a bit more Zen with the whole approach. Things are still chaotic. That's not going to change, but the mindset has changed, and that's. That's bringing a lot more stability, which I appreciate.

Yes. Beautifully said. I'm so.

Thank you. Thank you. So what kind of stuff you're doing are you doing now? I know I'm assuming the coaching is a part of it.

Yeah. Yeah. So coaching in various venues. I support an executive education program at MIT for chief operating officers.

Nice.

That's been a really good. A wonderful venue for learning. It's a highly global group, and it's really helped me just better understand on the world stage where what's, you know, what are we dealing with in terms of power dynamics? And I mean, the fact that this is a bit of a tangent, but that, you know, Saudi Arabia has $32 trillion, you know, earmarked for certain expenditures over the next five to seven years. And there are a lot of people claiming to get that money. And I mean, it's just. It's helped me think about power and influence in some new ways, which, as I have kind of shifted the context I'm in, it's been really helpful.

Yeah. Okay. So what's been. What's been the biggest Shift in terms of power for you.

I mean, I think that as I've been really thinking about what I want my offerings to be with respect to power, this question of how do we invite leaders into examining how they wield their power on an ongoing basis. And the, the line I've been. One line I've been walking is this. This. If you think of. Of a puzzle. So let's think about two puzzle pieces. That. This idea of how a leader sees themselves and how others see them. I call it identity and reputation. When those puzzle pieces are tightly woven together, that is the power for good that can come from that scenario. In terms of a leader having their intended impact, those who are experiencing them, receiving them as they. They want to be impacted. Like that's quite nice. And yet it's so often out. You know, it's not a neat and tidy puzzle fit. It's. There's misalignment. And I know you've encountered it in your work in the negotiation space. This ego narcissism, call it what you will. This struggle to examine how we are who we are. The struggle is real. And so how can I create or support others in creating unlock experiences to think about? Wow. Am I having the intended impact or am I getting in my own way?

Yeah. Oh, that's good. I mean, sounds like a lot of self awareness too, to be able to do that.

Yeah. And I think. I love that you're. You're going there. And it's. It's this question of we can say we value self awareness, but when it comes to really giving ourselves the time and the space to reflect on. I again use this phrase, how we are who we are again and again as our identity is changing. Like that's self awareness is, isn't. Is not a gnarly process. It takes a lot of work.

Yeah, it really does.

And I really admire people who are willing to do the work over and over and over again.

Yeah. That's the thing that's annoying about the work. It doesn't go away. Why can't I just be self aware once?

Totally. Right. But I mean that's. I think that's part of future readiness is that you're willing to. To keep doing the work.

Exactly.

We can't predict what's coming. We can feel humble, humbly confident in our capacity to respond to it.

Right. I love that and I love. Oh, that's so good. There's like interviewer qualities. Keeps on coming out, like humbly confident. Tell me. But I have to save some of this curiosity for the actual interview?

Yeah. I wasn't sure. I don't know when. I mean, but that's the thing, right? It's like, when does it begin? When does it end? Like, I don't know.

Well, one thing I've been doing more often is taking clips from, like, just the banter at the beginning and putting it at the end. I don't. Do you. Do you mind if we do that? Oh, is that cool? Okay.

Carte blanche. I trust. I trust you. I mean, you're amazing. It's just fun to be back. Be back.

Thank you. No, that means a lot. Yes, likewise. And you're in Michigan, right?

Indianapolis. Indianapolis.

Oh, okay.

Okay. So not too far. Not too far.

Cool. This might be tmi, but I was sitting outside enjoying the sunlight. Yeah, it was great. And then this little speck of something, I don't know, fell from, like, my tree and landed directly in my eyeball.

Oh, no. Today. Today.

Today, like, five minutes before this interview. So I've been. I've been trying to, like, get it out without my eye looking wild, you know? And then, like, now I'm realizing it is, like, working its way through my skull. So that cough, I think, was that speck.

So we need to do an extraction. Oh, my goodness.

Are you okay? I'm good. I'm good. It has passed. This too shall pass. And it has. As soon as I started coughing, I was like, this damn speck.

I'm, like, invested in this.

I know. I think I feel good. It's. What do we need to do to stop Kwame? Just throw little specks into his eyeball? Goodness gracious.

Laugh. I'm sorry. It's. Gosh.

It'S so silly. Oh, man. Cool. I'm good. I'm healthy again, other than the. The coaching and the. Is there any. Any, like, specific program you want to make sure that we shout out?

I think. I mean, I. I do have some writing projects that I'm working on it. I just got a book contract, so it's a. Updated. Updating a textbook. So it's a good start, though, with macmillan. And then I'm. I am sketching out a popular press book on leadership, drawing upon my coaching identity. So I love that working, you know, trying to carve out space for writing amidst, you know, being very, very plugged in with the people that I support from a coaching perspective.

Awesome. That's amazing. Okay, personal question for you then. Now. So when you write, how much are you going to use any of those, like, those new tools?

Yeah. So it was really Interesting to look at the contract in terms of how they're strictly regulating use of Chat GPT and other support tools. And I am in violation of the contract if I write anything with let's say chatgpt.

Wait, wait, wait. So nothing. So even if it's like you regurgitate like you saying something and then it rewords it.

I think yes, is my interpretation, however, that would not. I don't think that it prohibits me using it as a thought partner. For instance, like here's a question I could ask, like which merger and acquisition in 2022 received the most media attention? You know, if I'm writing about M and A activity and like then I could reduce the research time and I think maximize the writing time is one way I think about it. I also, this is probably going a bit beyond the question, but the way I've been thinking about it is just how can I see a Chat GPT or related responses, almost the table stakes response. And then I have to up my game, you know, like that's what that could write without soul. It's sort of a soulless content creator and I have to bring the soul, the expertise, the give the content warmth as well like it. So all that to say. I am trying to avoid temptation though.

Yeah, I feel you. I feel you. As soon as it came out, the first thing I was like, I was saying to myself, I'm like, man, I missed the boat. It would have made everything so much easier. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's interesting.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's interesting to see the gamut of responses ranging from fear of being displaced. I have coaching clients who are, especially in the finance space, accounting and particular feeling just very, very vulnerable. And, and I just. You don't need to sit, invite them to sit in that fear and think about what do I want to be different then if, if they're starting to feel outsourced in that way, surely that's showing up, you know, in the energy they're bringing at work. And so we need to explore that and, and get ready for what's next. Like that's, that's creeping in to a big degree. That it's a challenge space to be sure.

But yeah, and the thing that's tough is that it's a legitimate fear. Yes, it's completely legit.

Yeah. I think a lot of fears are, I mean a lot of what I, I just was doing this the other day, this, this worst case scenario planning and it, it's hard, but we just, we just have to get the fear out on a platter to examine it and like what's real and you know what, what are the real. Like, I mean, it's a game of statistics, but from a probability standpoint, what is really likely to happen? Oh, really, it's. It's probably pretty improbable that particular scenario, but that kind of preparation, it's all. It's fear in service of preparation and thus it can be constructive and.

Right.

Validating.

That makes sense. That's a good. I like that. Come on, Pen.

Thanks, Kwame. I. I'm used to being able to ask you questions, so I'm starting to like get like a really self conscious. A lot of our dialogue has been. It's. We're flipping it quite a bit from our past interactions.

I like it.

I bet. I have been told I need to take improv training to fill the pauses with by creating more interest for my audience. But the beautiful thing about podcasts is you can cut it down, you can condense.

Exactly. No pauses. Listen, you could either, you could either take more improv casts, improv classes, or just do all the podcasts because then, yeah, it doesn't even matter.

Yes, there we go.

Perfect.

But now I'm totally comfortable and thank you. I really appreciate your.