The Power of Empathy: Jonathan Keidan's Tips for Authentic Negotiations

Millions of subscribers and we sold it to private equity in 2018. But all those some working on founding teams and finally founding my own company, tons of lessons and understanding of all the things that go into starting something, building something, growing it, scaling it. And there's a lot of sympathy and empathy I have with founders because the last thing is when a board member comes in from 80,000ft is like, Ah, you should just do this. Like, it's easy. I know all the sleepless nights and the changes and the scrambling that goes on when you say that. And a lot of time I don't think investors are thoughtful enough about how they come in and what they're thinking about or they haven't sat in the seat, so they don't understand the ramifications of what tactically it will take to do what they're asking. And so having had and sat in those seats and had those experiences, I think allows me to connect dots and work with founders a lot more closely.

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John, thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yes, we are glad to have you too, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. So, John Keaton. I run and founded Torch Capital, an early stage venture fund. Really investing in super early stage companies mainly seed around looking at how technology shapes and reshapes consumer behavior. So things what we think about is we call the consumer ecosystem, which is really how people live, work, play. So that could be anything from healthcare and fintech to consumer Internet to gaming to media, anything where there's consumer interactions in some way or another, including at work and small businesses. So there's a big array of what.

We'Ll look at incredible. I mean, timing is perfect for that. As I'm sure you know, it's a very important industry.

AI is going to recalibrate all of these areas, much like we saw, I think, in the early 2010s where Social Cloud, location based software, all these things converge to create completely new capabilities, whether it was Uber or Airbnb or DoorDash or Tinder. And I think we're about to see a whole new recalibration there with the capabilities AI is going to create.

I agree, I agree. And maybe next time you come on the show, we could talk about how companies are integrating that, because I know those are tough conversations as well.

Well, those are very tough conversations, but we're also very early, so that's true. As quickly as things are moving. I think we're so early on this.

Curve, incredibly early, which is, depending on how you look at it, both exciting and scary because you have the tech optimists who are saying, hey, are we at the, you know, at the precipice of the singularity? Like, this is incredible. And then you have the doomers on the other side that are, you know, letting us know that everybody might die. So when you think about it, the tech optimist versus the doomer side, which side are you landing on?

Definitely tech optimus, but not without Rails. And so there's a lot of hard thinking and frankly, hard negotiations with the sort of foundational elements of AI which are being built right now that they need to be highly considered and thoughtful about. So we'll be looking at more the application commercial layer, which is going to come out a little bit later as the foundational technologies are built. But if those are built the wrong way or too open, and we can see negative effects clearly of social media as much as there are positive effects, and that will probably be amplified with AI. So I'm an optimist, but a realist behind that. So optimist, as long as the rails are thoughtfully, thoughtfully adhered to.

Well said, well said. Cautiously optimistic. We need to make sure that we do it the right way. That's great. That is great. And listeners, you are in for a treat because John has a really cool background. When we think about investing, your background is really fascinating. And I also think it pours into the unique perspective that you bring to your negotiations and difficult conversations as well. So what I want to do is start off just with your personal journey to get us started, and then we're going to talk more about the nitty gritty negotiation strategies that you Utilize as. As an investor. But first I want to talk about the music side. Tell us where you started and then how you had to have that internal negotiation to actually make the transition.

So my career really started as a calling. It wasn't even a choice. And it was to go into music. I played drums and was like the thing I did best in, in high school. And I got to college and joined the concert booking committee and all of a sudden realized there was a music industry and that was it, that was what I was going to do. There was no question. And I got into it really early freshman year, I. It's late 90s. I booked Dave Matthews for their first show ever in St. Louis. Like I said, I want to wash you in St. Louis. And became friends with them and did a great job. They wanted, you know, never been there, they thought they're playing a fraternity. We ended up putting them in a theater with like 1200 people and ended up in their inner circle and they exploded within like six months. It became one of the biggest bands in America. So a lot of my college was shaped by just really hustling into the industry. The Dave Matthews experience was incredible. But I interned at record label, I work with bands, I manage bands. And I really love the idea of the manager working under Dave Matthews. Manager, which was you're really the partner with the artists, you're running their business for them. And with them, all the decisions are with you. There's a. There's an element of talent recognition to know who you're going to work with and where you're going to put your resources. Building an audience, building their brand. There's so many elements to that that were exciting. And you can end up in a really incredible position if your artist does well being the manager. So that was the calling. All college, aside from studying, I spent working toward that goal. And by the time I graduated, I got two bands sign to Warner, one to Columbia, and I was on my way. I started. I started the management company. The height of the music business was the early 2000s. Literally in like history of highest revenues was a cultural mover, the biggest cultural mover in terms of entertainment. And that's really where I came in, which was fantastic. And I had great experiences. I worked with John Legend, I worked with the Nappy Roots. I mean, I worked with. I got to work with some phenomenal artists. But what I quickly started to realize as we hit the mid 2000s was the constraints on the business from tech and everything. I was realizing increasingly quickly that everything I built my career around was really on quicksand because all the moats of the music business were being disrupted by tech and was the first industry to be completely disrupted, whether it was promotion, distribution or production. You could record an album in your bedroom like Billie Eilish did. You can distribute it online, you could promote it online. And all the gatekeeping elements which really kept that industry so profitable were disappearing. And then at the same time, they weren't embracing innovation. The industry was suing customers and their college students and trying to fight with Apple and shutting down Napster. And I realized it was a real. It took a couple years, but I was like, oh my God. I put all my energy and all my heart, soul, blood, sweat and tears into this industry, which I loved. But it wasn't necessarily sustainable because I realized if the industry was declining, swimming Upstream as independent manager was, was going to be a really tough road.

This is incredible. And it's. You know what's funny too, as I was hearing you talk, John, I was thinking to myself, yeah, I remember that disruptive phase as I especially remember when the labels were suing young people for downloading because I remember some of my friends, they were downloading diseases onto their computer, just risking their lives to try to listen to some music. And then they were thinking, the feds are coming.

Really are like, what a bad way to. Yeah, lesson in what not to do in the face of innovation and disruption.

Seriously, you're so right. And now looking at the way that the con, the industry has continued to shift. So yeah, you were ahead of the curve, you saw it coming and tech did fully disrupt that industry and you recognize it was disrupting other industries. So now when we think about the transition that you made in your career, I want to analyze this from the inside out because I know you had to have a really tough conversation internally about what kind of transition you were willing to make or you had to make. But then you had to have other important conversations with other people who could help you to make the right decision. So let's talk about that internal negotiation first.

Totally. So I was an English major. I knew I was going to go into the music business. All of these things were crystal clear to me. What I didn't like was math, finance, all the things around where a lot of other people and friends of mine, you know, who went into finance or went into different areas of investing were doing. And to me that was the last thing I wanted. I went to the music business business so I would never have to do that. And interestingly, some people I really Respected around the entertainment business, started raising that, you know, you should go to business school. And no one in my world went to business school. And to me it was the last thing I personally wanted to do. And at first I shunned it. And then I thought about it and some really big people, including Quincy Jones, was like, John, man, he's like, you gotta learn the other side of business. The music industry teaches you on marketing and deals and talent and developing talent, all that. It, you gotta, you gotta balance your knowledge. And when people like key my music entertainment lawyer, a guy named Mike Salverd, who represented Wu Tang and a lot of the big hip hop acts and, you know, really serious music people were recommending I do that, I started to rethink and I said, even if it's not what I want to do, maybe that is what I need to do. And especially if I want to go back into the industry with a bigger set of knowledge and maybe help figure out things going forward or switch career paths altogether. But it was not a clear choice. And I remember I learned I had to take the GMAT to get into business school. And I almost threw up the day I actually bought it. And it took me about another six months to open it. And then fear is also a powerful motivator. I watched the industry get worse and worse and worse and I was like, this is just what I need to do. I don't have a choice. And so I'm going to do it. And so again, you're talking to someone who's an English major who was bad at all the things that would be the focus of an experience getting an mba. Anyway, it worked out. I really had to focus and I got into Columbia and I thought I'd hate it. And I ended up absolutely loving it. And it opened my eyes to so many other areas of business, so many other ways to think about business, including the entertainment business.

Incredible. And listeners. I think the biggest takeaway here is when somebody of the caliber of Quincy Jones tells you to do something, you do it. I think that's, that's one of our biggest takeaways here.

I mean, he was the wisest person in. One of the wisest people in the world and definitely the wisest person in the entertainment business. He'd seen everything and he'd seen it many cycles and decades over and was just a phenomenal guy. So yeah, that's true. He was very, very smart and really knew business as much as he knew music. So that was a big instigator for me to take it Seriously and try to do that. And then so I go to business school. I'm still managing acts, I'm still working with acts at that time. And the further I'm in business school and the more I understand things that I didn't understand before. I realized not just music, but everything in the entertainment industry was going to get completely disrupted. TV and film may take longer, but all my relationships that I'd built for seven, eight years was all around that overall industry. And the more I learned in business school, the more I realized I couldn't go back because there's going to be less and less to go back to. And so then I really had to think, well, what do I want to do if I don't do that? And a friend of mine worked at McKinsey and I was like, why? And he was like, you should come here. And I'm like, why would I go to be a consultant? That doesn't make sense. And he goes, listen, they're really smart and all they do is think about how industries are being disruptive and they're getting hired by the biggest players in those industries to analyze it. So sort of connect the dots, turn on the lights. And he was in the media tech practice, and he's like, look, it's hard to get in, but if you get in, you should try to work on this practice because your past experience is relevant. And so again, I had to really swim upstream, learn how to do cases, really dig in to a lot of the areas I was weakest at. And I was very fortunate to get an offer. And then I went to McKinsey for a couple of years and went from two in the morning, being in the studio or being at entertainment parties or on tour to two in the morning, like heads down trying to figure out spreadsheets and PowerPoint. So very different lifestyle change. But again, to me, it was what I needed to do to get to the, to the next level when everything around me was shifting and changing and disrupting.

That's fascinating. And for me, it seems like essentially McKinsey was just a more narrowly tailored continuation of your MBA, because now you're getting in depth knowledge about industry disruption, which is eventually where you ended up going to 100%.

All of these things takes me to where I am now, which is in which I love what I'm doing and have elements from all these different things and has been very powerful, I think, to make me better and look at the world a little bit differently than some of my peers. But yeah, so again, it was the Second part of my finishing school to sort of balance the more what I call the art and science of business. The art side was music and you know, seeing something and knowing there's something special or market opportunity to backing it up with data analytics, finance and having those toolkits really well positioned has been an incredibly powerful basis for me.

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Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yeah, and let's get into this John, because I think it would be helpful to paint a really tangible picture of the various types of negotiations you've had over the course of your life because then that could put us with a really strong foundation for talking about your unique approach to negotiation because it's going to be based on your whole life experience. So when you think about back when you were managing musicians versus now, when you're negotiating with startup founders, what does a standard negotiation look like for you as a manager, when you were back in the day, when you were a manager versus today, a standard negotiation with one of your potential founders as a.

Manager negotiating with your artist. Luckily there was some what was market was quite standard and so it was more did they choose to work with you, did you choose to work with them? But again, you're their partners. You know, it's not like an agent at an agency who works for the agency and cuts deals. You're literally their partner. You have equity, you only win when they win, you get nothing or you lose when they lose. And so it really built an understanding of the power of collaboration and creating win win outcomes because you're tied at the hip together. No matter what happens, good or bad, you're tied together. And I think there's a lot of similarities with that with early stage investing, it's a very long path and being an early stage investor, it's very similar to being a manager and that's really the through line on all that. In the middle I was a founder, which we can get into separately and so I understand the Founder journey really well. But it's finding win win outcomes and arrangements to create true alignment because it's going to be hard, it's going to be long and you want to know that you're in it for the same reasons and you're in it with the same goals. And that's really being very goal oriented approach to negotiating is critical that front.

I agree 100% and I love that through line too because we're talking about finding win win partnership types of opportunities in any of those interactions, whether it's you as a manager or you working with a tech founder, if you're just decimating them and taking advantage of them in a negotiation, the win. And for my audio listeners, I'm using aggressively sarcastic air quotes as we say win the win. There would be very short term, short lived because you need a strong working relationship with the partner in order to work through this. And I think for you as an investor, you understand this better than anybody else. Not only because of the musical background, but because like you said, you're a founder. So that allows you to empathize at a higher level as well. So can you tell the listeners about your background as a founder and how that helps you as an investor?

Yeah. So that's the other piece of this that that's been huge. So after McKinsey or when I was at McKinsey in the early 2010s, I saw the New York tech scene really starting to pop and I was meeting folks founders that were really inspirational. I started getting the same butterflies like I know there's something special here, much like I did with music artists and so decided I wanted to join a startup because this sort of I've been on the other side of innovation. I've been on the side that was disrupted. I want to be on the side that's disrupting. And before I could join one, I was actually introduced to Jack Welch, who is the former CEO of GE through entertainment contacts. A side funny story, they were working on a TV show with him for cnbc and being deep in entertainment, they were, you know, they didn't have people that they trusted and knew in more of the finance and consulting side. And they needed someone to run some business cases with Jack that was like credible. So they asked me to meet Jack, I meet him, we hit it off, I run these business cases for him on the side and he's like, look, I'm starting, I know you want to join a startup. I'm starting this new online education venture. You should be my right hand and so my first founding team experience was working literally as Jack Welch's right hand. And in two years he built the Jack Welch Management Institute, the first premium online MBA program at a very accessible price. So he really wanted to democratize, you know, phenomenal online MBA program. And then it was sold to Strayer within two years. And so I got to see from. From start to exit a company and obviously being shepherded by one of the most legendary CEO business leaders of our time. So that was a pretty cool first experience. And then from there I went to another edtech company on the early team that got sold, Elsevier. And then I started a digital media company called Inside Hook. And this is a much fun idea, more content oriented. And the idea was. And we became the top destination for lifestyle content for guys. We called it like busy guys, the accomplished guy, but really guys over 30 who no one was talking to about lifestyle. And this is in like the 2012 13. We launched and we became the top destination and we built the brand, the sales team, the product team. We were being very innovative with social media at the time and building our audience. And we built it to, you know, millions of subscribers and we sold it to private equity in 2018. But all those some working on founding teams and finally founding my own company. Tons of lessons and understanding of all the things that go into starting something, building something, growing it, scaling it. And there's a lot of sympathy and empathy I have with founders, because the last thing is when a board member comes in from 80,000ft is like, Ah, you should just do this. Like, it's easy. I know all the sleepless nights and the changes and the scrambling that goes on when you say that. And a lot of time I don't think investors are thoughtful enough about how they come in and what they're thinking about or they haven't sat in the seat. So they don't understand the ramifications of what tactically it will take to do what they're asking. And so having had and sat in those seats and had those experiences, I think allows me to connect dots and work with founders a lot more closely.

This is great. This is really good. Yeah, exactly. There's so many ways that we can go. Okay, cool. Yeah. Because what I'm thinking is we can go from this to actually we could go straight into the tough conversations that you have right there. Because we set this foundation for like your empathetic approach, like how you can truly understand then go from there. So that's good. Cool. This is great. John, first of all, the Connections that you have are impeccable. I think that's a major lesson for the listeners. If you have Jack Welch and Quincy Jones, like, in your orbit, you're already in a very good place and you're doing a lot of good things. So I want to start there, because that matters. Those relationships do matter. And then on the other side, too, I think this gives us an opportunity to talk about some of the strategic negotiation misses that investors can make. Going back to what you were saying, because they don't have the capacity to empathize if they haven't fully. If they haven't done the work as a founder themselves. So you can empathize at a much higher level because you've actually walked that life, but then also understanding the ramifications of certain decisions as well, because that would affect the way that you deliver it. And so can you go a little bit deeper into that specific nuance? Because it sounds like even if advice from the investor to the founder is solid and correct, it might not be received appropriately if the delivery is off, because they don't understand those downstream consequences of the decision.

Totally. So I think there are a couple things, you know, when you're negotiating with a founder early again, when you're starting early, it's a long path, and you really need to be thinking about collaboration and partnership, because what you're doing is signing on to a partnership. And that partnership is far more important than the very specific cents on the dollar of terms. Very unlike private equity, for example, which they're all about protecting downside and structure. And it's a lot more. It's a lot less collaborative, let's say, potentially. So with early stage, it's much like being a manager. You're partnering with that entrepreneur. You do well when they do well, you don't do well when they don't do well. And that's always the guidelines of how I think and approach negotiation. The other side of it is you got to be thoughtful. Like, if you set something at too high evaluation well beyond your returns, if you set something too high valuation, it may not set the company up for success. It could be a noose. It can say if the company, let's say, performs really well, but they have to pivot and they need more time. You don't get that if you set too high a valuation which can really cap a company's success or create a downfall artificially, and if you're just focused as an investor on the lowest valuation possible, that can be demotivating for a founder who you need There all the way through for the long run. And so there's a real balance that constantly has to be thought through about how you're creating the foundations of that partnership and collaboration to win. And that's the first set of negotiations. The second set of negotiation is, is not direct negotiation, but it's sort of that relationship and rapport on how founders are thinking about their business, especially at big junctions where they can do A or B or something may not be working. What do they do to alleviate that? And I've backed, I think, seven or eight unicorns at this point. I think the unicorns come when not being focused on that, when really being focused on what's the right next phase for the business. And most successful companies I've been involved with had pivots, had friction points. That's what made them so strong and successful. And there's many legendary examples, like Airbnb started as something else. And so you need to give them room and guidance to figure out where their traction point, if their North Star is the right way. You, as, as an investor and a partner for them, have to help give them some guide rails. But they've got to. You've got to give them the flexibility to find out from for themselves where that real traction point. And your part of your job is to give them the space and freedom, whether that's enough Runway, for money, for cash, that they can continue operating or not being too directive on what's going on. But at the same time, you don't want them to, like, drive off a cliff. And so having sat in that seat and invested in over 70 companies, I sometimes can see around corners. And we'll talk to them about my experiences, where things have gone this way or that way, or why they should make certain decisions, and then leave it up to the founder, ultimately. But that's a constant in your terms negotiation, because you want to give them the flexibility, but you don't want to have them do something that, you know may not work, but you want to give them things to try because they may see something you don't. And it's really up to them to drive their company. And their vision makes a lot of.

Sense, and it's, I'm sure, easier said than done, especially when you have those conversations about the next phase of the company needing to be some kind of substantial pivot, because I'm assuming there are times where somebody builds this company, but they fall in love with the vision as originally created, and it's tough for them to accept that they need to change their business significantly in order to survive. And if you're in a position where you're the investor and you see that next phase needing to be a pivot, but the other side has not come to that conclusion yet, or maybe they don't even recognize it. How do you broach that topic without it seeming to triggering to the other side?

So I think, you know, a relationship is built by millions of tiny interactions and you have to earn that credibility. And you're in a great position to earn that credibility at the beginning of a journey. From our perspective, we expect pivots, we expect hard times, you expect bruises and cuts and so on. And so that doesn't sway us. And so with that, helping them guide and be there and be credible and be a support system gives an investor the credibility or gives us the credibility to say, hey, if there's somewhat of a disagreement, explaining being transparent, being authentic and explaining your position, but you're not doing it again from 80,000ft, sort of whisking into a situation once a board meeting, you really are continuously building and being a resource and a backboard. So when you come to those times of a potential junction or decision making or tough conversation, you've built the trust. And trust is the key thing there. You've built and earned that trust. So hopefully the founder listens to you and considers what you're saying. And even if they don't agree, then they may not do what we tell them, is not telling them to do something. Our goal is to illuminate them on the reasons we think something one way or another. And so honestly, that's why we call the torch capital. Like the idea was holding a torch to illuminate this very dark, you know, foggy early path of a company in their earliest stages.

Makes a lot of sense. And, and also the branding is spot on. As you were saying that. I was like, oh, I get it, I get it. That's brilliant. That's really good.

Thank you.

And I love the fact that we're using the term earning trust. That's really important because it shows that we have to put in work. And they always say trust is gained in drips, but lost in buckets. And a lot of times we, we miss the magic of those mundane interactions that are so crucial for building trust. And one of the things that I recognize in all industries and with all walks of life, one of the biggest struggles that people have is that they try to persuade too soon without earning the right to persuade. And so in this case, you have to not only show up to the board meetings and not just show up for the negotiations. You're in constant communication and contact with the other side, who is now your partner. And so you're not just coming in and making a doom and gloom all the time where when John calls, we're like, oh my gosh, this is a bad day. Something bad is happening. It's like, no, I'm in constant communication. So even you popping up on caller ID isn't triggering. You have that fundamental, fundamental relationship. I think that's crucial, but so easy to overlook.

Easy to overlook. And a lot of folks overlook it. And I think me starting as a manager with a music artist, I mean music artists are, are by nature arrogant, egotistical and insecure at the same time. Paranoid and confident. All the dichotomies that you have to balance. That was phenomenal training to really be sensitive and thoughtful about, about those relationships. Because again, like a manager and an artist, early stage investor and a founder, they're, you're really tied at the hip and you've, you've got to earn that trust. But if you do, it can be very, very powerful. And for a long time, I mean, one of the things that isn't talked enough about in the industry is as you're successful, the company scales and grows in your massive and all of a sudden you're in a D round or pre IPO and there are these big, huge growth investors or institutions sitting around the boardroom and none of them were there and saw how, where you came from. None of them knew the pain and, and issues and the things you had to founder to overcome. But the early stage investor has been, and they've hopefully seen like we've had three IPOs in the last three years and multiple exits and so on. They've seen the journey all the way to the end. And I think it's really nice when you built that trust and earned it over time that even when things are very successful, but it's a little scary because these players have very different ways of operating. You've got that partner in the room or on speed dial that you've been through all this with over 5 years, 7 years, 10 years, and you can call them and at that point you are 100% aligned. And I think that's a very powerful part of being an early stage investor. When you get to the later stage, you're still their partner and you're still there for them, helping them think through and know what they want and know what their goals are and know what it took to got There what it took for them to get there, that you're a very potent resource for that, for that founder.

Incredible.

And John, with the time we have left, I want to touch on something that you brushed on. But it was incredibly profound because in order to. To compete at a very high level, to do anything at a high level, one of the most challenging things is balancing these incredibly different contradictions. Right. So you have somebody who is arrogant, egotistical, confident, or at least appearing to be confident, but at the same time insecure about the same thing that makes them supposedly confident. Right. And so you have to have an ego to be at the front of a band, to be in front of a crowd, you have to have that ego. But also your success is put in the hands of millions of people who may or may not like you, and that can make you very insecure. Same thing with founders and a record.

Label who may or may not like you. But yes, both sides, yeah.

Oh, that's true. Yes. And we're seeing that a lot today. There's a lot in the news about that right now. Right. And then I think it's a similar thing with a lot of the founders too, because you have to put yourself out there as a really confident person and tell the story of yourself and your company. But at the same time, you. There's that fear. Do they think I'm worthy? Am I good enough for this level of investment and support? And when you're having a negotiation with somebody who is trying to balance all of these different things, it can be a really tough, emotional tinderbox that you're walking into. There are a lot of mistakes that you can make if you don't fully appreciate the complexity of the emotionality of the folks in the room. So when you are negotiating with these high level professionals and you recognize that they are very high performing, high status, but also struggle with fear and insecurity, how do you navigate that effectively without damaging the relationship?

It's got to be based in fairness and reality. And so it's a mix of reminding them why you believed in them and, and what they've done. Right. They're on the right path, but also in the immediate time. I mean, companies saw this after 21. We're sort of great recalibration, I would call it. Where lots of companies were told, grow at all costs, they raise at high valuations. And all of a sudden they're like, all right, no one's giving you any more money and now you've got to get profitable like an absolute 180, you've got to sort of give them the truth, Reality as you see it, based on experience, based on other things you're seeing, and then talk through how you manage into that. But it's, it really comes down to fairness, collaboration and reality. And I say reality, that's the potentially negative part. Not about the relationship, but about the situation a founder can find themselves in. And then it's very important to say, okay, these are the challenges we see happening. Let's talk together and work together about how. And we'll be a sounding board about how to get through those or to solve those or to get around those. And so it's really important to listen, to have built that trust so there's credibility and for them not to be afraid to tell you a crazy idea or have an open discussion. And therefore it's important for you as an investor and hopefully a guide in the situation, to not just shut them down and to say, okay, let's stick through that, that idea. This is what I think could work. This is what I think couldn't. What do you think? It's really, you have to maintain a discussion and a constant dialogue, which you had referred to earlier. It's constant communication. And that way no one thing said overshadows everything else because there's lots of little, as you said, drops that, that turn into this building of trust. And if one conversation doesn't go well, there'll be another one tomorrow that you can resolve it or we'll switch gears. But that lots of touch points. And really keeping the conversation transparent but based in reality is important.

I love this. This is really important because when you think about the word reality, what we're doing here is we're getting some objective criteria for how we're going to evaluate the quality of this deal. So we're saying what is true, what is the situation, let's understand that, let's get on the same page and then let's make a deal that makes sense for both of us. And I think once you focus on that fairness element, but also grounding the negotiation in objective reality, it depersonalizes some of the hard decisions that need to be made. Because both of us are agreeing, we're going to try to treat each other fair, of course, and we're going to let the data decide. And so if I have to set a boundary, let's say the founder wants an exorbitant valuation and you just say, hey, listen, let me run through these numbers, let me explain my perspective, let's talk about the future together. You're bringing it down to say, hey, listen, it's not because I don't believe in you or I don't see value in you or your idea. It is because the numbers say that would not be the right move. So grounding in reality is so important.

Yeah. And there, and there can be negative consequences from focusing too much on that. And I think that's part of a fit. You know, if, if someone's only focused on that, they probably aren't a fit for Torch. We're focused on the founders that are most obsessed about the end product and the in the customer user experience. And that will get you to the high valuation if you do that well and that will get you to become a unicorn and so on. And so I think it's somewhat of a fit and we're going to have that trust if it all makes sense. I'm all for founders wanting less dilution and be motivated and have incentive to go forward, but it has to be within a realm of, as you said and I said, reality.

Exactly, exactly. And now this is the most important question of the day, John. So if there's somebody who's listening to this podcast and they say, hey, listen, I want to learn more from John or get in touch or there is a founder who says, listen, I need somebody to hold the torch so my path is illuminated and I know where to go, what is the best way for them to get in touch?

Probably just, I'm pretty open book. You can email me, John, at TorchCapital VC, it's Jo n no. Hi JohnOrchCapital VC and just shoot me an email and myself or someone on the team will respond.

Amazing. John, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Great conversation, really fun to be here.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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