The Power of Forgiveness with Dionne Nicholls-Germain

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Dion, welcome back to the show, my friend.

Oh, it's great to be back. This is like a mini reunion.

Yes, we're excited to have you. So for the listeners who might have missed your first couple episodes, can you remind them about who you are and what you do?

Sure. So I am actually a life and leadership coach, also known as the Joy coach. And I just believe there are so many ways to access joy, which we will get into today. But I have a special place in my heart for women, especially mothers who have a lot going on and still want more and healthy ways to balance it all. And that's really all just based on my personal story of reinvention, because I'm sure, you know, behind every coach, there's a really great story, right? So I actually worked in fashion for over 20 years, and it was when I was 40 years old. I was a single mom at the time, in 20 years, singular career in fashion that I decided that there was more I was supposed to do. And here I am today. So it's my belief that anyone, any woman, at any age, at any stage, can reset their life.

This is great. I love this because the work that you do is so impactful, and I couldn't think of anybody better to do it than you, you know, given your life, your career, your experiences, and the fact that your son is absolutely killing it out there. So this is really great. I really appreciate and admire the work that you do.

Thank you. And right back at you, Kwame. You know. You know, appreciate that.

Well, today we are going to talk about a difficult subject. And it's funny, Dion, I didn't even realize how difficult it was until you described it. And I'll just give you the floor, and I want you to set the stage. What is it that we're talking about today and why?

Ooh, so broad, so big. But I'll try to give it to you in 30 seconds. But we're here to talk about forgiveness, actually conquering unforgiveness and the importance of it. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically. There are so many reasons why it's important for us to forgive. I'd also love to debunk some of the. The myths and what gets in the way of forgiveness. And I've just seen that the. I've seen the transformational. The most powerful changes in my life because I forgave. My life is unrecognizable. So that's why I'm out here spreading that forgiveness word.

This is. This is great. And, listeners, the reason why. Think about. Think about all the episodes. I always say, this is why we are here to talk. And I'm avoiding it like the word Voldemort. You know, it wasn't until we started chatting before that, because you talk about turning forgiveness into a habit and making forgiveness habit forming. And I had a visceral physical reaction when you said that, because whenever we chat, I'm in a good mood. This is great. And then when you said turning, making it habit forming and doing it every day and doing it with intentionality, I literally became nauseous. Literally. I. It's not hyperbole. I thought that was really fascinating. And when you said not just you're hoping to help people to learn forgiveness, you. You've reframed it, too. You said conquering unforgiveness. And it's making me realize maybe a lot of people are out there like me who are just holding on to unforgiveness. And so I want you to really sell this to people, you know, maybe people like me. Explain why we are talking about this on a negotiation podcast and why it's so important for us to understand it for our life.

Sure. Well, From a healthy conflict resolution standpoint, I know that that's a lot of what you do. Forgiveness is a great way to get there. Forgiveness can allow for restoration in a relationship, whether it's outside of you, whether it's with yourself, a society or group, it allows for healing. Just think, even at work, you know, maybe there's some stuff that an old boss did, you know, that mistreated you or made you feel excluded. Imagine being able to forgive those things. So it frees you up for what you want to create next. But also, what if you actually have the courage to. To have the difficult conversation, to make them aware? Maybe because sometimes not even intentional, sometimes, it is making them aware of the impact it had on you and the level of trust, the level of love and honest communication. Like what all that opens up. There's limitless possibility that opens up when we actually are either allowing for that vulnerability, because that's a lot of what this is underneath it all, why we get blocked around forgiveness, whether we're asking or someone giving that to us. It's feeling vulnerable, exposed. Right. Maybe even weak. So there's a lot that is. There's more connection and trust the more we're having these vulnerable conversations around forgiveness.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because you're right. We talk about difficult conversations a lot. And, you know, it's really funny. Dion. I don't. We are about. By the time this comes out, probably around 900 total episodes of the show. Don't think we ever explored this topic ever. And as I. As I hear more about this from you, I'm realizing that that is a major oversight, because forgiveness is critical to conflict resolution, because it will affect your mentality as you go through the conversations, because you might be recognizing. In a business world. All right, I have to work with this person. I have no choice. And I have to kind of. Even if I do have the conversation, I'm having it in a way that I'm harboring this resentment, and I'm kind of going through the motions because I have to do it. And so I want you to paint a picture for the audience that kind of helps us to understand the difference between going into one of these conversations while holding on to unforgiveness versus going into these conversations while mastering the art of forgiveness.

Sure. So, one, if we're harboring those heavy emotions, we can't be as present. We may not have as much bandwidth for that person. So the patience, there may be some shortness. So energetically, it's already impacting your interactions with that person. But if you can actually have the open, honest conversation that there's. It requires humility. Depending who you know. Again, who's both sides, believe it or not, there's always an opportunity for us to own something in those forgiveness conversations. So having the maturity, the humility, that all of that's very disarming. And again, can further build that relationship in a way where you're free and clear because you're building trust with that person in addition to that connection. And every time we forgive, we're actually, we're being loved, we're offering grace and mercy. So that can only improve the relationship to allow for a more psychological, least safe place to work and voice. You know, if you have, even outside of this, if there's ideas, if there's things you want to bring, you feel more safe. Just as that is a launching pad starting with forgiveness.

I think this is right. And you're right. Harboring these emotions, it holds you back from connecting. And the vibe, you know, the vibe changes. People can feel that. People can feel that. And then requiring maturity and humility. When you, when you made those two points, I became convinced of this one thing. I'm seeing it really clearly. Dion. Clearly. Whitney sent you today.

We ladies, now we've got a secret little portal. Just kidding.

You are an agent being duped. No, this is really great. This is really great. And as you started describing this, it made me realize that probably a big portion of why people struggle with forgiveness is because they don't fully understand what it is. So how would you describe forgiveness? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Sure. So it's a deliberate act, right? It's. It's not. It's not giving up, it's not giving in. It's forgiving. It is. It is a gift that you're offering. This is what's interesting. A lot of people think it's about the other person, but it's really about Liberating yourself. So it's a conscious, deliberate decision to release anger, resentment, in order to. And this is it. And it's regardless. I think that's the key here, regardless of whether you get the apology. So it's deliberate, it's conscious, it's not passive, it is active. And you may or may not get that apology.

So I want to be vulnerable on this podcast as I. As I summarize real quick, because you're saying it's deliberate, we have to do this with intentionality. And I think I really appreciate the fact that you made it clear that this is not giving up or giving in. And you made it clear also that it's really about you mostly letting go of those emotions. And what's funny, and this is. This is the thing, because when we think about the way that the human mind works, we. We're going to have some instinctual responses in certain circumstances. And a lot of times when it comes to trying to be a good person, be a good negotiator, be in a good relationship, and generally not be toxic, a lot of times, it requires you to fight those natural instincts to do what you do, what you don't want to do in the moment. And it's so funny. The reason why I give this lengthy psychological disclaimer is because I'm going to share what was in my head as you were saying this. I was like, okay, so I'm not giving up. I'm not giving in. And okay, I'm releasing my emotions. That's great. I can do that. I don't want to feel bad anymore. I can release that. And then when you said the person doesn't apologize, regardless of whether or not the person doesn't apologize, I said, I wonder if there's a way for me to release my emotions and still get revenge. Does that count as forgiveness?

Does not.

And I was like, wow, Kwame, you need therapy, boy. My God. So this is great. Okay, so let's go deeper into this, because again, we're recognizing that this is about releasing our own emotions. But we are going to be the greatest barrier to this process. And during this process, we are going to be blaming other people, other circumstances, and saying they are making me feel this way. And I feel as though sometimes we need permission almost to release. How do we get to that stage where we are even okay with embarking on this journey?

Well, I love how you were physically pointing at me, just hypothetically, but if you notice how many fingers are pointing back. So that alone is a reminder. There is always Something we can own or what's the work that I need to do on my side of the street. Whether it's a shift in mindset, maybe it's looking at the story and how you can actually more powerfully reframe that. Perfect example, I just wrapped up a five week conquering, unforgiveness mastermind. And there was a young lady who still was harboring a lot of anger and resentment towards her mother. But she was committed to this journey of forgiveness because she wanted to be a better human for her son. So that was the really driving, real driving force for her. She said, I know that hurt people, hurt people. And this is what blew me away. But she said, but healed people heal people. Yeah. And she was able to make the decision to do the inner work through our program because she had that highest commitment to be a heat, more healed and whole person for her son. So sometimes you can get there by actually really connecting to your big. What for above and beyond whatever they did to you, It's. It's possible.

That's powerful. Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that makes that so powerful is that it, it takes that focus off of yourself and off of what the other person did or what the circumstances are. And I think that gives us clarity because it's, it's perspective. Because I can think. It's funny, I can think about some of my friends who might have been harboring resentment. And I would just, I would try to coach them through letting it. Hey, I can see from the outside looking in, this is not good for you. It's making you sick. It's. You're, you're distracted. You're not well right now. But then it feels so good when it's me. I'm like, yeah, man, I like being mad. And, and I think it's, it's really important to take that step outside of ourselves to see the bigger picture. And one of the things that you said in passing, but I think is so powerful is reframing the story. Reframing the story. Because we all have stories. The person on the other side has a story, we have a story. But when they have a story, it's a story. Probably fiction. When us, it's not a story. It's fact. This is what happened. Right. And so first of all, how do we start to release ourselves from that narrative? Like becoming okay with that? And then how do we actually go about doing it? Sure.

Well, a big one that came up and it actually relates to the story. I just gave you a big one. Is taking the labels off. So, for example, our mother is supposed to have it all together because she's mom. But what do we know? Many times, right, Our parents are just doing the best that they can because they've still got that, that little girl or little boy inside. And maybe they were never taught how to say I love you and hug or whatever. The thing is, it could be more, even more, you know, hurtful what took place. But a lot of times they're acting out from their own traumas. So that's another way that one of the, one of the ladies in our, in our group was able to get there when she recognized that hey, mom had her own stuff, she didn't know how. And I can even speak of a personal story of mine because my son's father, unfortunately there was infidelity. We were together for 17 years, college sweethearts. I thought we were going to get married. Unfortunately, like I said, he stepped out on the relationship. How was I able to get to forgiveness? I didn't have all this figured out back then, but it was just intuitive. One, it was connecting to my highest commitment because the most important thing for me was for my son to have and know that he had two parents that were going to work together and he would know that, you know, they had his back. And I'm happy to say that we did create a very healthy, loving co parenting relationship and we just flew out last year together to get our son settled in to college. So one, it was connected, that highest commitment. The other one was. And you may, you may know the book the Four Agreements.

I've heard about it, I haven't read it yet.

Great resource actually for forgiveness because one of them is basically generous assumptions or they're doing the best they can with what they have at the time. So my son's father didn't grow up with his dad. He had several, I think about eight children outside of him with at least five different mothers. So what was his model? What was his example? As much as he said, I don't want to ever be like him, he actually, you know, carried on that cycle. He has a child with me and two others after me. So for me he's, he's remorseful. He's grown up since then. But at the time I could stay angry. But really he was doing the best that he can, what he could with what he knew at the time. He had no other example. So that empathy is huge. Getting that wider lens, that zooming out, as you mentioned, is a really powerful way to get there. The reframing the taking the labels off. He's my son's father, he should know better.

Yeah. That's so powerful. And again, those labels are attached to those stories. The label is a story. And so we could just simply rewrite it in a way that's more powerful and empowering for us and healthier for sure. And I know some people are listening to this and they're saying, okay, sounds good. I understand that I might feel better, but what if I allow myself to feel better and that makes me lose my edge in the relationship? Because this resentment I feel is protecting me because they did me wrong. And if I start to feel okay again, then I might put myself in a position to get hurt again. So what would you say to that person?

Ah, so it's not the anger and the resentment that's protecting you, that's actually killing you. You might have heard that quote, holding onto resentment and unforgiveness is like drinking rat poison and thinking the other person's going to die. So that's not protecting you. But what does protect you are boundaries. Loving yourself enough to make sure that you create boundaries. Right. So you can, you can forgive. It doesn't, doesn't, it doesn't negate or take away the validity of what happened. So that's a lot of the myth that comes with, when you say you forgive. Well then they're gonna, they're off the hook. No, that's not what this is about. However, you may know Dr. Brett A. Brown, I love her stuff. And she talks about living big and living big is boundaries, integrity and generosity. So when we're, we're putting in clear boundaries with someone where there has been a breakdown, you know, that's important to make sure you're, you're going to teach that person how to treat you going forward so that you can allow the same thing over again and over again. So that's not what forgiveness is. Just saying, okay, forgive and you can keep doing the same thing. That's not what it is you're releasing for your own well being and personal growth and putting boundaries in place. Living in integrity. Right. So being impeccable in terms of your word and how you will conduct yourself with that person, making sure you're staying in, in align with your core values and beliefs. Whether that's having a, still having being connected this person or not. What's best, what's best? Serving me. So being integrity with that and then being generous, and I would say in this case, generous with your assumptions. I gave you a couple examples where you know, as much as I would like, I mean, my friends want to go and Kia's car and the whole bit, but I'm like, I'm gonna be generous with my assumption that he was just doing the best that he could with what he knew at the time he didn't have a great role model.

Yeah, this is really good. This is really good. And I don't know. I have a crazy idea here. Tell me. Tell me what you think. I feel like if we could turn in. Turn forgiveness into a replicable habit, and maybe if there was, like a journal in place that could help people walk through it, maybe that could help people on this journey. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Well, it's funny you should say that. Well, I mean, this is hot off the press, people, so just to let you know that that is something that I'm actually working on as we speak. So launching in September, I am creating a forgiveness journal that will make forgiveness habit forming. Because like anything else, we're building a muscle. So what if we start with the small things daily? Like, we can just bring it down to the smallest granular and repeat it on a regular basis. So it's gonna have great prompts for you to always, you know, look at not only outside of you, but inside of you in terms of areas to forgive. I'm gonna put a lot of tools in there. I actually have a five step dream work, a dream framework that I created to help get you to forgiveness in a more systematic way. So, yeah, it's going to be chock full of good stuff. My own personal testimony, and then all, like I said, all the benefits. I mean, in terms of your. Your mental health, your physical health, the importance of forgiving is. It's. It's beyond. And then everybody around you wins, by the way.

Yeah.

So I actually do consider. I consider forgiveness one of the highest forms of personal transformation. Because think about who you are on the other side of forgiveness. Like my son's father, I never forget the day when he said, dionne, I don't know who you are anymore. Because he was my greatest teacher in terms of feeling empowered to use my voice and advocate for myself. Right. So those things that we think were happening to us, they really were happening for us. And then we can. We can actually feel the feels and get to the point where we can allow ourselves to release all of it, get the lesson and forgive.

This is. This is so good, Dion. And I know what the listeners are thinking. They're thinking to themselves, number one, I need to get this journal number two. Clearly, Kwame needs to get the journal too. So this is good. We'll put the link to your website, the pre order for the journal, and everything in the description. Dion, another masterclass. Really appreciate you joining us today.

Oh, man. Thank you so much. And I forgot to put in here. I will be doing a keynote on forgiveness in Atlanta. It's a women's leadership conference in 2024. So February 21, 2024. So I will. Once you subscribe to pre order my my journal, you'll get all the updates for that as well.

Love it. Oh, this is great. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Kwame, this was amazing.

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