The Power of Non-Confrontational Techniques with Michael Reddington

Hey everyone, it's Kwame Christian, host of Negotiate Anything, asking you to please do not skip forward because this is not a commercial. Ok, I've got something for you. So we want to hear from you, our incredible listeners, because your feedback is super helpful in making the show even better. We've created a quick and fun forum to get to know you, and this is your chance to make the show even closer to what you love. And here's the best part. If you fill out the form before December 31, 2024, you'll be entered into a raffle to win a signed copy my book delivered straight to your door. It only takes a few minutes and your input will help to shape the future of Negotiate Anything. Find the form in the description of this episode and we'll announce the winner in January. Who knows, it might be you. Thanks for helping us to make the show even better and even more connected to you. Good luck in the raffle. Mike, welcome back, my friend.

Dude, it is always great to see you. Thank you for having me back. This is awesome.

Yes, likewise. It's always a pleasure. So for those listeners who might have missed your first one, two or three episodes, how about you tell them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

I'll keep it short. I don't want to bore anybody. I'm a certified forensic interviewer and executive resource. So very long story short, I parlayed a career in interview and interrogation into a career teaching CEO, senior executive sales teams, HR leaders and beyond. Really? How to obtain everyday confessions by applying strategic observation and persuasive communication techniques all of their high impact conversations.

Oh yes. And this is tantalizing. I mean, it's, it's perfect. I'm excited for this. I'm always excited to have you on, but today we're going to talk about deception. And of course, of all of the podcast guests, I believe you are the person most qualified to address this. So I think what would be helpful is first giving people a bit of a background on your history as an interrogator and the skills that you got from that that help you now in everyday life.

Cool. So I'll go down that road. Cut me off anytime you want. So, very long story short, yes, I was a professional interrogator for nearly 20 years. During that process, I earned my certified forensic interviewer designation. During that time, not only did I conduct interviews and interrogations on a contract basis, but I traveled all over the world working for a company, Wicklander, Zelowski and Associates, who are awesome, traveled all over the world, working for them, teaching law enforcement, federal agents, private sector human resources. That's how I met my wife. How to obtain the truth through the these non confrontational rapport based means. So for multiple decades now, my life has been all consumed by how do we elevate our strategic observation skills to understand what people are likely thinking or feeling in real time, evaluate that against our goals in the context of the situation, and then use our observations to help us get closer to achieving those long term goals. So interview and interrogation scenario, the short term goal is to obtain the truth. Whether it's a victim, witness, suspect, job hire, doesn't matter. The goal really is to get the truth, but then to get the truth in a way that allows the long term goals to be accomplished. And those long term goals could be if somebody's done something really bad, making sure that we collect enough evidence so they can face accountability to the fullest extent of the law. It could also mean that we're gathering enough information to ensure that we reduce the opportunity for this crime or similar crimes to happen again. Could be to figure out who else was involved. It could be if we're talking to a victim to maybe get some additional details that they haven't previously felt comfortable sharing so we can be better armed going into the conversation the same as a witness. And with all of these conversations, one of the goals is to walk out every single time with a handshake so people feel like no matter how sensitive or vulnerable the conversation was, they were treated like a valuable human being throughout that conversation and could make their own decision to share the information. So that's a super fast backdrop of where I come from and the approach that we take.

This is great.

Okay, Anything I'd add there before we get into like the deception piece?

Oh no, it's perfect. And actually before we do get into the deception piece, I am hearing from a listener who is confused and perplexed. Mike. Because they're saying, hey listen, I love watching these crime dramas on TV and what you said was non confrontational rapport based skills. And the goal is to walk out with a handshake. I thought we were supposed to walk out with people in handcuffs crying and we're supposed to pin them against the wall with the truth. So can you help me to understand the discrepancy between what you shared and what Hollywood portrays?

Well, let's start with Hollywood's goal. Hollywood's goal is to entertain. Hollywood's goal is to keep you watching. And they need drama for that. So they need to create drama in these emotional peaks and valleys in order to get you in there. So I think I can tell the story in a way that will come off okay. Years ago, I was interviewed for potential participation in a television show. I probably would have got cut from the list no matter what. But here's a funny story about how I got cut from the list. I made it to whatever. It was like the third interview, and it's on video. And the whole premise was it was like family intervention. So you got a person in their family that has some sort of problem, whatever. Gambling, drinking, drugs, infidelity, Pick one, doesn't matter. And they need somebody to come in, have a conversation with them. And this is in the. The person that probably weren't the producer, but whoever I'm speaking with. Right. They're telling me, you need to get this person to confess so that way the family can confront them and get them to change. I'm like, well, wait a minute. When I talked to the last person, they said, this is all about positively impacting families. Yes. Well, then why do I need to get a confession that sets up confrontation? I'm not sure we're speaking the same language here. And after going back and forth, they're like, well, what would you do? Well, I would sit down, I would have a private conversation. I would allow them to save face. We would get the truth in stages, maybe even allow them to start by blaming excuses or rationalizations in the beginning. And once they were comfortable in the conversation, now we would go ahead and draw out not just the truth, but the impact that it has on their life and what they need to feel to change. And once we break all of that together, now we can bring the family in, and I could mediate that conversation to make sure that we stayed focused on the long term goal, the family unity, the family improvement. And that by allowing this person to save face, we could actually get the change we're looking for. I get silence on the other end, and then I get, well, Mr. Reddington, that sounds effective, but it's not what we're looking for. So are you looking to positively change families? Are you looking for drama based ratings? So that's my little Hollywood rant for you right there. Based on a sample size of uno. So you've got the drama there. My wife has a sticker on our refrigerator at home, and it says, you can't make a child do better by make we have a son. So it says, you can't make a child do better by making him feel worse. That's the same for all human beings. You really can't make people do better by making them feel worse. We get a little bit misled by that sometimes because who do we see on tv if we're watching sports or you know, we're watching these people who have dedicated their entire lives to achieving what less than 1% of people are capable of achieving. Well, you can get a Tom Brady on the sideline. Am I allowed to make a Michigan reference on this?

As long as it's negative.

Okay, you can get a Marvin Harrison Jr. There we go, on the sideline. And you can screen that dude down and he might actually improve because he's committed to something and he's a part of something better and he's sort of forsaken. I've never met the guy, but I'm assuming an athlete at that level has forsaken their self image to a point where sometimes I need someone to knock me down a peg to get better and realize the little things I need to fix. But most of us aren't top level athletes or so if I'm going to try to make you do better by making you feel worse, this is going to be counterproductive. One last little story. Many lifetimes ago, I was working in retail and I was actually helping install some equipment in a location and there were a couple of women there who were on the job catching shoplifters and they went out to stop a couple of men who were stealing. And I happened to see as they were going by, so I followed out. And when I followed out, the guys didn't know I was there. And one of them made a regrettable decision into how he thought he could physically separate himself from the women, happened to be standing right there and corrected the situation. So fast forward maybe a year, I'm interviewing a woman and based on the company I was working with, I needed a female witness in the room for lots of reasons, it makes sense. So I call one of the women that I helped that day and I was like, hey, I need a favor. I'll buy you lunch. Can you come up here and just sit in the room and kind of take notes? She says, no problem. So she comes up. Now for context, I was interviewing a woman, I don't remember, but to say she was in her 50s, could have even been older. She was a long term employee. Beloved had won a bunch of awards but had recently come under suspicion for committing fraud, likely for a long period of time. So I go through the interview. I'm sure this woman didn't confess to everything she did. Very few people ever do. But we get a confession that again, I don't remember, but conservatively had to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or $40,000. Not the biggest confession ever, but certainly reasonable. She's done. She writes her written statement, we call in human resources. Human resources tells her that she can now go find a job somewhere else. She hugs both the human resource representative and me on her way out. Doesn't go much smoother than that. So I take this girl out to lunch. We sit down like so, you know, what's your feedback on that? What did you think from where you were sitting? What could I have done differently or better? Man, I was so disappointed. Disappointed in what? She. I thought you were going to yell at her. I thought you were going to make her cry. I thought you were going to make her feel terrible. And you were so nice to her. How would that have helped? As we continue to talk, she equated how we handled the situation on the sidewalk to how we would handle a situation sitting down talking to another human being. Those different contexts require different approaches. And so as a general rule, if you want somebody to say or do something that isn't their idea, the number one thing you've got to do is help them save face and protect their self image. You have to line up their self image with what you want them to do. Can I tell you one more story? Am I going too long with this?

Never stop telling stories.

So another interrogation. Try to keep a very long story as short as I can. I got a call from a guy who I had a decent relationship at the the time who said that he had a case and he didn't think he could get the guy to confess. What? I come in and I only tell that part of the story to tell this part of the story. I don't know about you, but where I grew up, if one of your buddies asks you to do something because he can't do it, it's now your moral obligation to make fun of him throughout the process. Right? So I'm giving him a hard time for days. Yeah, I'll come in and do it. What's your problem? Blah, blah, blah. I show up and they pull this dude up on camera and I'm immediately like, I should have kept my mouth shut. Giant dudes covered in tattoos, from his hands to his neck. Has a reputation that they're telling me about. So I'm now regretting like all of the trash talking that I've done. Because now what this means is if I don't get the confession, I'm gonna get that trash talking back in spades, right? If you dish it out, you better be able to take it. What goes wrong comes around. So I'd rather be lucky than good. I sit down, I start building rapport with this guy, and he tells me that his brother manages the loading dock at this facility. Now, for people who might not be aware, loading docks are ground zero for theft activity. So I've got a guy who's suspected of committing fraud who just told me that his brother runs the place where most theft likely happens in the building. And I wasn't told of this in advance.

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So I file it away. This guy admits to everything the evidence had showed us. Just a little bit more. I'm good with that. So as I start backing out of the interrogating him for his activity part, I need a segue to get him to confess to his brother. Now, if I ask him, is your brother stealing? He's either going to tell me to f off or hit me or stand up and walk out like he's not going to do it. So I looked at him and I said, thank you very much for your professionalism and respect today. I really appreciate you being honest with me. I got to tell you, I'm jealous of you. And he did exactly what you just did. I said, you work with your brother? He said, yeah. I said, you guys close? He said, yes. And, man, my brother's my best friend. He lives halfway across the country. I get to see him maybe twice a year. You see your brother every day. I'm jealous now. He unfolds his arms and he sits forward. I'm like, man, I got to tell you, when this is a true story, and I'll keep it super short because we have a long conversation here, but when I was going into the third grade, my brother John was going into the first grade. My dad took us on a walk and gave us this big speech about how starting the next day, we were going into the real world, and we always had to take care of each other. We always had to look out for each other. That's what brothers do. So, you know, we're like, okay, dad. And he says, no, I'm serious. Gives us the whole speech a second time. And I think when I was in the third grade, the first fight I got in was some kid picking on my brother underneath the monkey bars, right? So as I told the story to this guy, I literally. People are watching this on video. I ended by doing this. So I rubbed my lip, if you can't see it, as I said this. But when I was done, I said one thing that I learned growing up was, no matter what happens, you've got to back your brother's play. And there were plenty of times where I walked out of a situation, and here's where I rubbed my lip where I thought that wasn't such a good idea. But I didn't have a choice because John went. I had to go. And as soon as I did that, he nods his head. And as soon as he nods his head, I said, so what's the most expensive item you and your brother have ever taken off the loading dock together? He exhales, he goes the air compressor, and starts snitching on his brother. And the reason why that worked is because I didn't accuse him of. I didn't accuse him of being a snitch. I didn't accuse his brother of being a thief. I just told a story about a brother has to back a brother's play. I gave him an example of when I backed my brother's play, which wasn't criminal in any way, shape, or form. Illustrated. I didn't tell him. I understand you've always got to back your brother up, but I illustrated, dude, a brother's got to back his brother's play. So now I'm not asking him about stealing. I'm asking him about backing up his brother. And what kind of brother wouldn't do that? So now I've completely lined up snitching on his brother with his self image, and he hasn't realized it yet. Then comes the question, then comes the admission, and now we're building from there. So story time with Mike is over. I just ran through your interview that you wanted to have, but those are three examples of why it is so important to help people save face. And if you want them to say or do something that they don't want to do. It's not about the confrontation. It's not about wearing them down. It's not about winning. It's about prioritizing your long term goal and aligning what you want them to do with their self image so they will help you achieve that goal.

And it shows, Mike, with these incredible stories, that the challenge that people have when it comes to deception or getting the truth in these difficult conversations is really, it comes down to mindset. They go into this thinking, like you said, this is an altercation. It's a confrontation. It's about wearing them down. And there's a bit of a cathartic expression that we have when we are saying, okay, cool. Not only do I want to get the truth and get an outcome, but even above all of that, I want to hurt your feelings in the process because you deserve a verbal spanking. And I won't be satisfied until you feel bad through the process. And really what we're doing in that situation is that we're putting our emotions above the outcome that it is that we seek to achieve.

You nailed it. Call it our righteous moral perspective, call it our ego, call it our need to be right. You know, pick a term. But that's exactly what it falls under. So I'll make you a series of promises. It's much easier to get somebody to say I did it than it is to get them to say it's my fault, period. And it is substantially easier to get somebody to say I didn't and it's my fault than it is to get them to say I lied to you. So all too often, when we think about I need. I'm going to go talk to Kwame. I can't believe he did this. He is going to tell me that he did this. It was wrong. He knew it was wrong. He's sorry, he'll never do it again. And he lied to me and he's not going to lie to me anymore. Good luck. I'm going for a handful of confessions all at once or admissions all at once. Each one is more difficult than the next. There's no opportunity to save face. And really what my goal in here is dominance, not goal achievement and relationship correcting. We want to think about getting the truth in stages. If you say, mike, I did it, but it's not my fault, what did you just tell me?

I did it.

That's the hardest part. So why do I want to make that any harder for you? So if you say, mike, I did it because, and whatever comes after the because is bs. Who cares? You just said I did it. And the excuse that you partnered with that is the face saving mechanism that allowed you to say it. It saved your self image to say it. So now what I want to do is I don't want to blow up that excuse because I'm going to destroy all the progress we just made. Now I can say something like, kwame, thank you. That's a great place to start. Please tell me more. Please walk me through. Please unpack. And now I'm going to start asking you about the excuse you gave me, not the action. And as that excuse continues and falls apart, then you start leading yourself to the accountability and the responsibility. Because the excuse won't hold water over time. I know that. So why would I want to rush to break it up now? And I would say in the overwhelming majority of conversations, I have no interest in getting somebody to say I lied to you.

None.

Because how does that help? It's going to make them feel worse. Because although every single person listening to this conversation, depending on how old you are, has told thousands of lies, lies in your life that run the gamut from completely innocent to self preserving to if we had another opportunity, we wouldn't tell that lie again. We've all done it, so. But we've all been told it makes us bad people, right? Don't ever lie to me. I can't trust you. Blah, blah, blah. So there's a whole nother conversation about like the perception of lying that we could run people down if you ever wanted to go down that road. But if I know that admitting to lying is going to make people feel worse and it's not going to help the situation, then I'm not going to do it. I'm going to keep a goal focused outcome. I'm going to get the truth in stages until I get to the point where I can achieve the outcome. Then we're going to walk forward together. My son's young. Your sons are pretty close to the same age. So we have this conversation a lot. It was funny. When my son was in preschool, the word lie was not a word we ever used with our son. We focused on truth. It's important to tell the truth. It's important to be honest. Mom and dad will always support you. We'll always help you. We're going to do that through the truth. I didn't want to use the word lie. Why focus on the negative when I can focus on the positive? He comes home one day and and uses the word lie in the sentence and both My wife and I look at each other, we're like, so we don't confront him on it immediately. Right. I don't want to create a reaction out of him. So a little while later, we circle back. We're like, hey, who says lying? Oh, my teacher. My teacher says that she doesn't like it when I lie to her. Oh, I'm making a phone call. So. But even, like, how you approach truth and lying in the grand scheme, I know this isn't the conversation, but it's so important because we are all going to lie to each other at some point, to some degree. It could just be to get out of a conversation you don't want to have. Okay, fine. But I don't want to confront people online if that takes away from my ability to strengthen the relationship or achieve a goal. And the vast majority of times it will.

Ooh, that's so good. Especially that last part. Strengthen the relationship and achieve a goal. And what it sounds like to me is that for a lot of us going into these conversations, especially when we're talking, talking about lies and deceptions, it triggers a high level of emotionality because we feel disrespected. And then when we feel disrespected, we get super emotional. When we're emotional, we don't make good strategic decisions in the moment. So before we have these conversations, and it sounds trite because we've said it on the podcast a ton of times, you have to have that negotiation with yourself to figure out what it is that I really want. What self work can I do to manage my emotions? Before I get into this conversation, how can I add a little bit of resilience emotionally understanding that most likely in this conversation, they're going to lie to me more, and then how am I going to be nimble in dealing with that? And so before we even get deeper into the how tos of how to navigate these conversations, can you help us to understand what it is that we need to do within ourselves before these conversations in order to be mentally and emotionally prepared for the conversation?

Yeah. Number one, prioritize your goals. So what is your resolve? An investigation to close a negotiation. If it's to close a negotiation, what does that negotiation lead to? Those are your real goals that you're looking to achieve. Your goal isn't just to close the negotiation you've talked about. A deal can be a bad deal. So the goal is your goal? Is my goal to save this relationship? Is my goal to help somebody improve their lives? Is my goal to result? Be to close the negotiations. What options does that create? Be very clear on the long term goals that you want to achieve. So that's one, because as you so eloquently wrote about in your book, prioritizing outcomes helps us compartmentalize our emotions. Because I'm not valuing or prioritizing how I feel. I'm valuing and prioritizing what I want to achieve. So knowing those outcomes is the first one, and I really do think it can sound right, but it is incredibly important. That's one. The second one that I would say, and it's a lesson that I learned in interrogation is just come to the grips with the fact that they're supposed to lie to you. That's their job. In this situation, if telling the truth leads to consequences really perceived, our brain tells us, well, I should probably lie about that. So take it personal. Is doing everybody in the conversation ourselves involved the disservice? Tim Levine's research is clear. People don't, in the overwhelming majority of circumstances, the ones that we're typically addressing here, people don't lie to hurt you. They lie to protect themselves. So if we're going to put somebody in a conversation in a situation where they might feel a need to protect themselves, they might feel the need to lie, and that doesn't make them a bad person, that makes them a normal person. So if we can just accept that lying or massaging the truth and not being completely forthcoming or withholding information, use whatever term you want, is how the game is played. You and I had a conversation last week and we talked about things we have to do sometimes because people expect the game to be played. And so we kind of have to take a deep breath and play the game because it's what they want and it's part of the whole process. Okay, fine. Well, being lied to is how the game is played sometimes. I remember teaching a law enforcement class in Wisconsin where one of the officers was going on a rant about how angry he got when he knew someone was lying to him. So I let him finish the whole rant and when he was done, and you could take liberties and classes that you couldn't in others because they generally have a thicker skin and better sense of humor and they're on each other all the time anyway. And so I just asked him, I was like, hey man, let's just say hypothetically speaking, you did something that you weren't supposed to do and somebody sat down and asked you a question about it, what would you do? And he sits up straight, he's like, I would deny till I die. I put both my hands on his desk and I got uncomfortably close to him and I just whispered, then why do you get angry when other people do it to you? I was point I had to backpedal out of his arm range as fast as I could. Right? But it's if. Why are we getting mad at people for how the human brain processes issues and by the way, realize that how we approach them, the questions we ask, the posture we take, the tone of our voice, the audience around us, all of these things can cause people to want to laugh. So if we don't take those contextual factors into play, we might get mad at somebody for lying without realizing that how and where and when we approach them created the lie. And if we approach them in a different time, place and manner, they would probably or at least be more likely to tell us the truth. So to answer a question I think you asked 37 minutes ago, prioritize outcomes. Realize that people are supposed to lie. That's how this works. Don't take it personally. Tie the lie to the goal. I would prefer that people are honest with me, don't get me wrong. But I would rather them lie than be silent. Because if they're silent, they're not giving me a whole lot to work with. But if they lie, they give me an excuse. They give me an explanation, a minimization and exaggeration, even a fabrication. Whatever it is, they're giving me something to work with. So now the question to ask yourself is, okay, given what I believe is the untruth I just heard, it may or may not be, but given the untruth I believe I just heard in the context of the situation I heard it in, how do I use that to get me closer to the goal I want to achieve? And now I'm making progress, as opposed to satisfying my own emotion and picking a hill to die on, that isn't going to help us.

There's always so much to explore here. So there are two elements here. When I let's think about deception in the other person and then also deception in ourselves. Because as we're having this conversation, I think other people, as they're listening to this, they can say, yes, when I have lied in the past, these circumstances were present. And then also when I have tried to confront somebody on deception, I have created certain circumstances. So before the conversation, before we have difficult conversations, I think it's important for us to think through how we're going to answer questions, especially if they're going to touch on a sensitive topic that we might be tempted to lie on, because a lot of times lying is a fear response. We weren't prepared. We don't want to look bad, and then we answer untruthfully, and now we're kind of stuck. And so being more prepared and understanding how you're going to address your vulnerabilities a truthful way that is both truthful and protective, I think that's going to be helpful. And then also recognizing that when it comes to the skills that we bring to these conversations, and of course, this is not to blame the victim, but we can recognize that a lot of times we create the circumstances that make it almost necessary for the other person to lie, where under the circumstances, you've created a pathway where it is very, very difficult to not lie under those circumstances. So by accepting responsibility and being more prepared, we can protect ourselves not only from being deceptive ourselves, but also encountering deception in others.

I love all that, man. You nailed it. That was a perfect recap.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And now let's think about this now, and maybe perhaps, you know, you've been on the podcast 85 times, so you might be down for this.

I have to be on your podcast 85. 80 more to go.

Yes. So why don't we do a little role play so we can bring this to life. So let's make a scenario that I think a lot of people could get down with. So let's say you're working in a company and somebody was supposed to do something. They did not do that thing. They're pretending as if they did, and also deflecting and blaming other people for their lack of accountability and not doing what they need to be.

Yeah, yeah.

So in that situation, let's say you're my leader or manager, and I'm. You're confronting me on this, asking how things are going, and I'm dodging. I'm good.

So one of the philosophies, approaches, phrases, whatever that we live by is illustrate before you investing. So just like the guy that snitched on his brother, believe it or not, getting you to take accountability for being behind on this project or not getting this thing done psychologically is the exact same as getting the other guy to admit to fraud and snitch on his brother. It's the same thing. So I'm going to use the same process. So in this scenario, maybe what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to call you into my office and say, come in sit down, shut the door. How many good things have ever, ever happened after, right, come in, sit down, shut the door. The only time I recommend saying that is if you're going to give somebody like, a raise or a promotion and you want to mess with them first, then go ahead. That's fair. That's if you're actually going to. Or if you're just going to fire him, then who cares? Do whatever you want. But if you're going to have a conversation with somebody who is going to still work here tomorrow and you need them to change their behavior or solve an issue, I would not say convince it. Down, shut door. So the first thing I would do is I would say, okay, where's a reasonable place for us to have this conversation? Are we taking a walk together? Are we sitting in a conference room? Am I coming to your office? Are we going to go grab coffee, maybe go grab lunch? You know, all of these things could be alternative news, but time, date, location, all of those things are a big part of the strategy. Put that aside for a minute. Now, let's just talk about the conversation itself. We're going to do the, hey, how are you? How was the weekend? You know, is Ryan Day going to put it all together this year finally? Or could he only win with Urban Myers players? We'll have all of those conversations, but then once the conversation really starts, it will go like this. So here comes the illustration. Kwame, One of the things about working here is we all wear a bunch of hats. We're all asked to do a lot of different things. So at any given time, we could have five different people ask, asking us to do eight different things. And that doesn't even account for the customers. Because maybe the best part, sarcastically, about working with customers is they get to change the rules of the game, but we don't get to change the deadline. So let me ask you this. Here comes the investigation. Looking at everything that we've experienced so far throughout this project, what would you say are the three biggest factors that have caused us to fall behind?

Client MAN so I would say that, first of all, the clients just. They're jerks. They're jerks, Mike. That's all they do. They just complain about everything. They change the game. Like you said, they ask for one thing, and then they deny that they asked for it. And then I say, there's an email chain. They never. They deny that somehow, and now they want something completely different. That was my fault. So, yeah, I think, first of all, the client's being a jerk. That's number one. Then, you know, I don't want to get anybody in trouble here, Mike. But Cheryl, I don't feel like she carries her weight sometimes. I'm always on the team with her, and I'm lowering her. My voice because I know she's in the cubicle next to me, but I. I just don't feel like she gets it. And so she falls behind, and then just. This is irrelevant. It doesn't really apply to work, but just at home, it's been. It's been stressful. Everybody has stress. And, you know, you have stress. I have stress. I know. So I'm not gonna. I'm not trying to, you know, bring on my little violin here and say, woe is me, but that was not helping the situation. But the clients and Cheryl, those two things put together makes it really tough.

It always does, man. At least the clients. That's their job. First, I want to acknowledge you and your family and say that I hope that everything's okay. You know, the personal stuff, I don't want to get into. Certainly want to respect your boundaries, but I hope everybody is safe and healthy and okay at home. Getting back to the clients, I'm pretty sure if you look up clients in the dictionary, the definition is, I give you my money so I can make your life hard. Like, that's. That's their approach. And sometimes we do have teammates who maybe they have other priorities or they're juggling things we might not be aware of, or maybe they're looking at the situation a little bit differently than us. So taking stock of where we are now and where we need to be as the leader of the team, Kwame, what do you think are the first three steps we need to take to start getting back on track?

Man, that's a great question. I think first, what I would do is we gotta get Cheryl off this team, Mike. We gotta get Cheryl off the team. I tried really hard to work with her, but it's just like oil and water. We can't work together. So if I could wave a magic wand, it would be her gone. The next thing that I would do is first, we probably need to have a reset conversation with the client clients to just get expectations back on the same page, because it's almost. It feels like there's a bit of a cold war happening, where even when we do interact, there's a lot of subtext that we can feel but is not really said. And so, I don't know. It's. I've had a rough time dealing with these clients. So maybe we need to have a reset conversation with them. And then we have to review the scope of work. There's been a lot of scope creep. These clients are very demanding. And I think just us as an organization historically, we don't do a good job of setting those barriers. And we just say, yes, we'll do it. Yes, we'll do it. Yes, we'll do it. Yes, we'll do it. And we don't set that boundary. And as a result, everybody's overworked, things are falling off our plate, and now we look sloppy where if we would have just stuck to what was in the original scope of work, we could have gotten this done really easily. But now we're getting penalized for trying to over deliver for our clients.

Thank you. And those are all very valid perspectives. And again, it gets back to the clients feeling like they can change the rules in the middle of the game. And it's our job just to be thankful that we're in the game with them really quick. And I won't bore you with the whole story, but when I was young, I had a mentor who was working with me earlier in my career, and I had an issue with somebody I was working with. And he told me that he was a former high ranking officer in the army prior to the career that he was in at the time he was working with me. And he said, let me tell you a story. And he told me a story about somebody who consistently was causing problems for the unit, couldn't keep up, falling behind, making mistakes at one point, put somebody's life in jeopardy, blah, blah, blah. And he said, you know what? Honestly, everybody kind of thought he was a jerk, but you know who he was. And I wasn't smart enough to sit there silently. So I said, who? Who? And he said, my jerk. It was my responsibility to take care of him. It was my responsibility to educate him up, it was my responsibility to keep him safe. And it was my opportunity to lead through him in order to make sure that we all did what we needed to do to accomplish our missions and keep each other safe. And Kwame, that's one of the stories that I've always kept in the back of my head. Anytime I can't get along with somebody, whether it is clients or whether it is in the office or somewhere else, even in my personal life, that I can put whatever label I want to on them, but for this initiative, they're my whatever that label is. And as a leader, it's my job to figure out how we're all going to come together to achieve the objective. So you mentioned the short, the scope creep. Excuse me. And you mentioned kind of the tense emotions that we might be feeling back and forth. So here's what might be a very helpful next step. What we would love to do is take, however valid they may be, the perceptions out of the situation and focus on the objective facts that we have. Because the bottom line is we have a commitment and we have a deadline that we need to make. Make. So what I would love to be able to do is sit down and review those with you. If you take a look at your calendar, I'm very happy for you to interrupt me and let me know when this is most convenient for you. But I would love to know about how much time you think you need to factually organize what the initial expectation was, where we are now, and what's left in relation to the deadline. And then what that conversation will let us do is really examine any assets or changes we might need to reallocate in order to make sure that we satisfy this customer and then take the lessons we learned to apply it to customers moving forward. So about how much time do you think you would need to put that together? I want to be respectful of your calendar.

I think. Well, it's Tuesday today. I think I could probably get that to you by the end of the week.

I'd appreciate it, man. You want to grab lunch on Friday?

That's perfect. Let's do it.

My treat.

Wow. Wow, that was incredible. And I tell you, you caught me off guard, which I hate to admit because I was like, man, I'm going to come up with the most flagrant lie at the beginning. You didn't give me an opportunity to do it because you started off with that question. What are the three things that are contributing to this? Like, it's almost like an assumptive close in sales. Yes. I'm not going to even give you the opportunity to say that there isn't a problem because that's what I was going to come in and say. Yeah, there's no problem. There's no problem. We're good. Don't worry about it. Nope. Hey, there is a problem. What has led to this? And it's that open ended question that's so powerful because a lot of times with the questions that we ask, we almost invite deception because the person knows what the answer should be and so they give the right answer. And the right answer may not be the truth. And it makes it harder for me to lie when you Just say, here is an open ended question list, three things. It was so disarming. But then also I had no reason not to answer those questions and I provided all of that information. And even though I was saying, okay, I'm going to throw up these smoke screens and blame somebody else, you did a great job of acknowledging and validating like the client concerns or things like that. But you never said, yeah, it's Cheryl's fault. We're going to go with that. Just saying, I can understand where you're coming from. And then you rolled into something else. So it was a brief acknowledgment, acknowledgement to show that you are listening, but you're not going to latch onto that too. This was a masterclass too. This was great. And especially, can you go into saving face as well? Because we've talked about that a number of times, but I think now that we have a really good example with an actual back and forth, you can talk about what saving face looked like in this context.

Yeah, for sure. And dude, as always, you picked apart so many really cool little elements in there. But you talked about people knowing what the right answer is. We call that implied expected answers. If I ask you a question and the correct answer is implied and you give it to me and it's not the truth, I have nobody to be upset with but myself. Because that's like me walking up to you and saying, you look hungry, here, bite this. And then I get mad that you ate it. On what planet does that make sense? So to get back to how does this help you make safe face? The word you is one of the most dangerous words in the English language. It immediately puts people on the defensive. So if I walk up to you from the implied expected answer category and I say, hey, are you going to get this done on time? Are you on track? Do you have everything under control? Are you taking care of the customers? Those words, you make this hit you right in your self image. So number one, you've got to defend yourself. And the implied expected answer is to say yes. So you're going to say yes. I'm going to go, great. I'm going to go put my head back in the sand and then I'm going to be pissed the day before this is due when I realize that it's not the case, but it's nobody's fault but mine that this fell behind. So now when I ask the question, that illustration in and of itself is a huge face saving favor. Because now what I'm doing is I'm Giving you a menu of excuses to choose from when you answer the question. I'm saying, you know what, Kwame? Sometimes it can be mentally taxing to figure out, how do I tell Mike the truth without fully taking the blame. So because I like you, I'm going to give you a series of options. I'm going to say, we've got five different managers asking us to do eight different things. The customer can change the rules without changing the deadline. We all wear a bunch of different hats. So I'm curious, what are the three biggest factors that have caused us to fall behind? I've given you, if you don't want to come up with your own excuse, which you did a really good job of coming up with your own, so thank you very much, Cheryl. We're going to have to come back and do something about Cheryl. But now if you can't come up with your own, you just choose one off the menu. So you just say, hey, Mike, you're right, the customer did change the rules. They're not backing down on the deadline. Here it is. But now when I ask the question itself, I didn't ask you, what's your problem? Why are you falling behind? Where did you drop the ball? What are you going to do? It's what are the three biggest roadblocks? What are the three biggest challenges? What are the three biggest factors? So now you're blaming it on the circumstances. You're not blaming it on you, which makes it infinitely easier to tell you the truth. And I put a number on it. I didn't just say why. I didn't just say how come. I didn't just say, what's the issue? I said, give me three. So now that question lands differently on your brain. And as soon as you stop to think about it and your eyes move in any direction, we never really did talk about deception. Today we're going to have to come back. But if anybody's ever told you that when people's eyes go one way or the other, they're lying, you've been misled, that's not true. But if your eyes go in any direction, that's telling me you're thinking about, and you shouldn't have to think about it if there weren't actually reasons that you've fallen behind. So now I can gather this extra intelligence while I'm waiting for you to answer the question. So, boom, you give me the excuses. Perfect. You just gave me excuses, which means we're behind. I knew it. You knew it. But we can't solve a Problem that's not on the table. Now the problem is on the table. We can work to solve it. Solve it. So as you give me those excuses to your point, I am listening for validity. Like do you say something like, oh wow, that's a real problem I need to address right now? Of course I'm listening to that. But what I'm also listening for is how do I move the ball forward? So you nailed it. I'm going to acknowledge that. I heard you. But I'm not going to wallow in this pity party. So I'm going to give you enough of a, hey, he heard me. Oh damn, there's another question. Like, so I'll validate it. Of course, course. But then every follow up is moving the ball forward and they're going to follow those same principles. Illustrate. Before you investigate, I'm going to give you a reason to answer the question. Then I'm going to ask. And when I ask it, I'm going to ask it with specificity. So I think on the second one I used the number three. So it was three problems, then three ways to make it better. You went right back to the excuses. Okay, cool. I'm not spinning down the excuses drain. So I'm going to listen, I'm going to validate this time I'm going to use the illustration of Dr. Losik who is one of the best mentors I had early in my career. I can quote him for days. And then after that, now I'm going to be specific. Not about what are we going to do, but how many days is it going to take you to get what we need so we can make this decision together. And I'm going to put you in the power position to do that. Sure. I could tell you I need that on my desk by five o'clock tomorrow. And if it was a big enough emergency, I might. But if it's not a big enough emergency, why do I need to assert dominance over you when I need you to take responsibility for solving the problem? So if I've got enough leeway because I didn't wait till the last second to have this conversation with you, I can ask you, dude, how many days you think that take? I know you're busy. How many days you think that take to put it together by the end of the week? Awesome. Let's grab lunch. My treat. Now you feel validated? I'm ready to go. I've done my research. I know what the situation is to the best that I can. I've got my alternatives and thought processes and next steps in place. But I'm not going to give them to you. I'll buy the burgers. We can sit down. And as you present your plan to me, maybe I learned by the way, by the time we get to lunch. Incredible.

Because. And the other thing that I love about this is the fact that, that we're not trying to go for the.

Four move checkmate here.

We're recognizing that this will take time and we have to be patient. And what I another thing that I love about this is that not only do we need to shift our mindset to be more outcome oriented in these conversations, but we also need to help the other person to be more outcome oriented in the conversation. Because a lot of times they're going to be looking backward, trying to figure out somebody else that they can blame or some other way that they can take the responsibility off themselves. But if you don't just take that off the board and say, listen, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, we collectively have a problem. How do we get to this solution, this outcome? And then in that process, what has to happen is that they have to take accountability for what needs to be done in order to get there, too. And so by warming them up in this way, you're putting yourself in a position to be successful, not being led by your emotions, but being led by your strategy. And I think, again, when you start to put these strategies into play and you start to develop these skills, skills, deception doesn't seem scary anymore. It's an opportunity to gather information and learn so you could be more effective in the conversation.

Something. Always allow yourself to be surprised. And then from there, we can put the plan together.

Well, listen, Meg, if you have maybe, I don't know, a book or a podcast you could refer people to, I think that would be a good conduit for the rest of your ideas, too.

Amen to all of that. Too many times, whether we realize it or not, we prioritize time. I need you to tell me right now. Now. Well, time is the enemy of empathy. If I'm prioritizing time over quality of the relationship of the outcome, it's all going to suffer. So taking a few minutes now saves days worth of pain later. So all the things you talked about prioritizing before come right back into play. Allow them to save face, walk them down that road. It's huge. I think there was something else I was going to say, too, but you mentioned so many good things I forgot the other thing I was going to touch on. So if it comes back to me, I'll get back to it. But you're right, you nailed all of it.

In summary, wow. Hey man, my pleasure. Thank you again for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

You know what, it's funny you should ask. I got both. So if podcasting is your thing, I see what you're saying. The Discipline Listening Podcasts, we're not quite to your number yet. I think we're 65 episodes in and rolling. But we've got some great conversations. You've been on there twice now. Thank you so much for being generous with your time and all the great stuff that you shared on the conversation. But it's available, so I see what you're saying. The discipline listening podcast, YouTube if you want to watch the video. If you think I got a face for radio, then Amazon, Spotify, Apple, you can find it all there. The book is the Disciplined Listening Method. How a Certified Forensic Interviewer Uncovers Hidden Value in Every Conversation and that unpacks everything we've talked about here in immense detail with all kinds of extra examples. And it's a. There's applications in there to leadership, sales, negotiation, family conversations, investigative interviews, and more. If you want to learn more about the book, It's a disciplined listening.com to buy the book. You can find it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I appreciate you setting that up. Thank you.

Thanks brother. Appreciate it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

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I'll catch you later.