The Problem with Being Too Nice: How to Reclaim Your Voice and Say NO

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Sunita, thanks for joining us today.

It's wonderful to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Yes. And it is our pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure, absolutely. I am a physician turned organizational psychologist, and I study compliance, defiance, influence, advice, and authority. And I've studied that for many decades now, starting first, first in the medical context, of course, and then spreading out to many different industries and areas. And really now just interpersonal relationships. Anytime we have an interpersonal relationship, I look at helping people reclaim their agency and speak up when they often feel forces that keep them mute and silent.

There is so much to explore already. Now, before we get into some of that, I heard through the rumor mill that you perhaps may have written a book.

I have written a book. I have written a book called Defy the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. And that was released just in January.

Congratulations. And I think this is the type of book we need to see more of. And I am seeing already a nexus between how you described your work and then the book as well, because I want to zoom in on what you're talking about when you say reclaiming your agency. I think a lot of people can listen to that and they'll say, okay, yeah, yeah, I can get that. But what is it that people often miss when it comes to that element of your work?

Yeah, I think people struggle with this, especially if you had the type of socialization or upbringing that I had. So, as a child, I was known for being an obedient daughter, an obedient student. I did what I was told, and I even remember asking my dad at one point, what does my name Sunita mean. And he said sunita in Sanskrit means. So I mostly lived up to that in that I did what I was told. You know, I went to school on time, did all my homework as expected. I even had my hair cut the way my parents wanted me to. And these were the messages I received. Like, to be good really meant to obey, to be polite, to fit in, to not question authority, and to really to do as you're told. And it wasn't just from parents, it was from teachers in the community. And so what often happens is that we start equating being compliant with being good and defiance for saying no with being bad. And this can have a lot of consequences and costs for us as we progress in life. It becomes very hard for us as adults if we've been socialized in such a way to be able to say no. And because of that, I was always fascinated by people who could actually defy, who could be themselves, you know, and I would study them as I was growing up. I did psychology when I was at university, intercalated in my medical degree. And I just got so fascinated by obedience and authority. And it led me to the work that I do now. And looking at some of the serious problems in one study found that nine out of 10 healthcare workers, most of them nurses, don't feel comfortable speaking up when they see their colleague or physician making an error. And if you're a patient there, you want them to speak up. Right. And it's also in other industries. Another study of over 1700 crew members on commercial airlines, about half of them were not comfortable so saying something when they noticed an error. So these can be life and death situations, but even when it's not a life and death situation, keeping silent when you know something is wrong can be quite soul destroying. And I often felt drained and muted. And that tension was really what, what motivated my, and inspired my work and research. And having spent so long studying this, now what I found and I think substantially changed how I think is that we've just misunderstood what it means to defy.

Ooh, so what does it mean now? I'm, I'm very intrigued.

So. Well, often when we think of defiance, you know, especially, oh, you're a defiant child, it's not giving as a compliment, it's seen as something negative. And if you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance, it's to challenge the power of someone else boldly and openly. And I grew up in the uk, so I'm not one to disagree normally with the Oxford English Dictionary, but I think that's too narrow a definition and it doesn't really honour our agency. And so my definition of defiance is simply to defy is to act in accordance with your true values when there is pressure to do otherwise. So we reframe it from this almost negative connotation to something that's really positive, a proactive force in society that can help both us and others, because really it affects our lives, our communities and our workplaces. And that's why I'm so passionate about it.

It's incredible. And this helps to understand why in the. In your first response, you talked about your admiration of people who could defy and how they could be themselves. And I thought that was really interesting because whenever I would think about it, because, you know, I look at the dictionary definition of it, which is clearly very limited, I would say, oh yeah, defiance means like standing up to something or pushing back on something. And what I'm recognizing is that. And you correct me if where I'm wrong on this because it sounds like that could potentially be an element of it. But defiance is more about honoring who you are and then acting in accordance with your. Your values, your goals, your authentic self. Am I getting that right?

You are getting that right. That's exactly right. Is that both what I call like a true no, which is defiance, and a true yes, which is consent. They're very different. It's very different from just complying with something. Consent and compliance are often conflated with each other, but they're actually fundamentally different. But when we think about our true yes and our true no, they're thoroughly considered authorizations that are an active expression of our deeply held values. It's nothing about something being externally imposed on us. It's about living whether that external force was there or not. You would say no or yes. Your true yes and true no, depending on what you want to do, is coming from within. Another myth about defiance that people normally have is that it needs to be bold and loud and violent or aggressive, you know, or that you have to have a larger than life personality. You have to be a particular type of person to be defiant and get in people's faces. And that's not what defiances at all.

It's.

It's really, as I said, if it's living in alignment with your values, anyone can do that. It's a skill set, not a personality. You don't need to be brave or extraordinary. It's a skill set that's available and actually necessary for all of us so we can learn how to be defiant, even if you had an upbringing such as mine of being very, very compliant. You can learn how to be defiance. And that's really something wonderful to know that we can learn that skill set. And we defy in our own unique way, with far less angst than we used to have.

Why it's so important to understand the true essence of defiance. Because what I'm recognizing is that we. We focus on the. The proverbial or metaphorical tip of the iceberg. Okay. Say no. If it was that simple, your book would just be two words and people would say, my goodness, I could have just said no this whole time. Unbelievable, right? It sounds like there are so many elements to this. We have the psychological element, we have the emotional element, we have cultural elements, and I'm sure there are gender elements as well. But then I think fundamentally, it is our lack of understanding of what defiance really is, and it's our misunderstanding of it that prevents us from utilizing this tool or this skill. And so let's make this really clear when it comes to understanding definition, defiance, if people don't fully understand what it is in the way that we've described it now, how does that manifest itself negatively in their life when it comes to setting boundaries, saying no, and exerting that agency that we talked about earlier?

Yeah. So if you don't really understand not just what defiance is, but what compliance is and what consent is, then we don't really know what our true yes and our true no is. So then it becomes really difficult to know what we are consenting to and what we need to actually defy. And so understanding who you are first of all and what you stand for is like the first step, like, who am I? What are my values? How do I want to enact my behavior on a day to day basis? And by values, I don't mean goals or something is right or wrong, because that can be subjective. What I mean is like, you know, when I ask my executive students to do a values exercise, it often boils down to very simple, often single words that are simple but really powerful if we can enact them every day. So integrity comes up again and again. It's almost like a universal value. Nobody wants to be called dishonest or untrustworthy. So integrity is really high. So you see things like integrity, benevolence, fairness, compassion, equality, empathy. We see those things that people are sort of saying, these are my values and this is how I want to live every day, sort of enacting these values. But often we are not able to do that. You know what my research has shown me again and again is that what somebody believes their values to be is quite different from how they actually behave. So how do we get there? To be able to rely on our actions? Right. We need to learn what our true yeses and true no is to be able to enact those values. And in terms of yes, the book being more than just say no, three key reasons for why we actively resist defiance. So we've spoken a little bit about one of them. We don't understand what compliance and defiance are, and we can delve into that a little bit more and I can tell you the difference between a true yes and compliance, consent and compliance. The second reason is that we do feel enormous pressure to go along with other people. And I've discovered some psychological processes that explain some of that pressure and what we can do about it. And then the third reason is once we decide to defy, we don't actually know how. We don't have that skill set because we were trained in being compliant and nobody ever trained us to be defiant. And so we have to train ourselves.

Okay, so let's recap this. So the three things that hold us back, we have the. The lack of understanding of the distinction between consent and compliance. We have the pressure that can force us into another direction that's antithetical to our goals or our values. But then we also have the deciding. Once we do decide to defy, we don't know how to do it. So when we. With our approach with Ani, we talk about in the podcast a lot when it comes to our ability to communicate, we talk about it through the lens of mindset and skill set. And it sounds like. And again, I want you to invite me correct. I invite you to correct me where I'm wrong here. It sounds like the first two levels are a bit of the mindset portion, and then the last portion is the skill set. Once we can get the internal navigation piece correct, then we need to understand how to do it. But that's the last piece of the puzzle. Because a lot of times we start off with the skill and we say, okay, I'm going to figure out how to say, no, I'm going to learn these scripts or these words and say these things. But then we might make the mistake of navigating the conversation in the wrong way because we don't have that internal clarity and the pressure might be pushing us in the wrong direction or we're not clear on our values. So even though we're utilizing the Right. Skills. It's oriented in the wrong direction, which puts us in a position where we're still not getting the outcomes in life that we want.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a wonderful summary. Is that, you know. Yes, the skill set is the third one and then just the mindset, the understanding of that. Also with the pressure aspect, there is an emotional aspect there too. You know, we have all these psychological forces working against us. We have some fear, we have some anxiety, we have concerns. We worry about the costs of defiance. So there's a lot going on in that sort of aspect of the pressure that we're processing, which requires a little bit more than just the mindset aspect of it is like understanding all those different elements, understanding how you react and having some knowledge about compliance and defiance aren't just binary things. We often think about it. Yes and no. It's actually a progression of stages. And I describe those stages. I have five stages of defiance that really can help us more. So there's a lot to learn about compliance and defiance that we didn't know before.

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So if we think about compliance, it's usually something externally imposed that we go along with something because it's our default. That's what we were socialized to do. Or we feel that pressure to go along with it. So. So it's a yes. That's not quite a yes. It's coming from something external, like somebody, an order, a suggestion, or even expectation from society. That's compliance. Now, consent, I take informed consent in medicine, which requires five elements for true consent. And if you've been a patient and you've gone through the informed consent process, this is what physicians are looking for when they seek your consent, which is sometimes an ideal. It doesn't always happen, but this is the idea behind it, is that we have these five elements limits. So the first one is capacity. We actually need the cognitive ability to make an informed decision so you're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. You're not too ill to make that decision. Second is that you have the knowledge of the situation, so you've been given the information. You have the information you need to make a good decision. But it's not just being given that information. The third element is you need a really good understanding of that information. You need a grasp of, of the costs, the benefits, and the alternatives. So really truly understanding it. And then the fourth element is that you need the freedom to say no. Because if you don't have the freedom to say no, then it's merely compliance, not consent. And if you have those four elements present, then the fifth element that you're required as a patient to do is to give your authorization. If you want to say yes, that's your informed consent. If you want to say no, that's your informed refusal. So it's either your true yes consent or your true no, which is dissent, defiance, or your true no. And so when we think about it, your true yes and your true no are both thoroughly considered authorizations that are an active expression of your deeply held values. It's something that's coming from within. It's not externally imposed.

It sounds like in a lot of cases these, these conversations are kind of sprung upon us where we aren't, aren't anticipating the request, and it can surprise us. And as a result, somebody might just say, hey, can you do this? Or what do you think about this? Whatever it might be, there might be some kind of request. And then we almost have a reflexive yes or where we don't give ourselves the time to think through it. And when I think about, okay, so let's check capacity. Let's hope we have capacity in this situation. We might have knowledge, but then have we taken the time to distinguish whether or not we just have knowledge or true understanding? That might take a little bit of time to fully distinguish between the two within ourselves. And it sounds like it seems like there are going to be some cases where we are incapable of truly giving informed consent simply because we don't have enough time to think through it deeply.

Yeah, I agree with that. There's many situations where, you know, informed consent, a true yes, is really an ideal that we can't reach even in medicine sometimes. Like, because when we think about the knowledge and understanding. Are we all going to go to medical school and have the same knowledge and understanding that your physician has? No. So there is an element of trust at times, and then that really, then Comes down to what is the source of this information? How do I assess which information can be trusted and which not? Which is becoming more and more difficult. Difficult in today's world. But it is something at least to be aware of these different elements of consent. And there are times where it's impossible to do so. I mean, like, the number of disclosures, like every app that we get, we often don't have the choice actually to say no to this paragraph and yes to that paragraph. Right. So there's many times we're just complying with things. Yeah. I mean, how often do you go and, like, join like, a new gym and then sort of sign something to say that, yeah, it's fine if you kill me, you know, or I lose a limb, you know, like, we're doing this, like, so often. And occasionally, you know, when I. I'm thinking about my work, you know, I try to cross it out, but it's kind of difficult at times to be able to do that if you want to use the facilities and things. But the important thing is to really be aware about this and. And sort of the element of risk that you're taking. And to go back to something that you said before, like, a lot of times we might be surprised or caught off guard, and then we slip into our default. We slip into compliance. But even then, we actually then know, oh, I'm the type of person that does that. And so we can actually anticipate that, too, and just have some useful scripts in our pocket to sort of ask for more time so we can take a pause. And I actually call this the power of the pause, because it's such a powerful thing. Just like having even just a couple of seconds more before we say our default yes is really helpful, you know, just pausing. And, you know, if you can just ask for more time. Let me think about that. That sounds really interesting. Let me get back to you on that. And I need to check the dates. So just, you know, really having that power of the pause is the first step in sort of getting to our ability to defy and practicing that.

Absolutely. And giving yourself permission to pause. Because I think, especially when you go back to the studies on authority, if we psychologically, for whatever reason, see the person as an authority figure, we feel a lot more pressure, and we feel as though they have the right to dictate what is a reasonable amount of time to make a decision. And my simple rule that I follow is if somebody is pressuring me to make a decision and I'm trying to inject a Little bit of time, and they say, no, I need an answer right now. I'm like, well, the answer is no.

Yeah, but I think that's.

If you give me a little time.

Exactly, exactly. Could be a yes. Right. So I think that's. I think that's wonderful. Like, this aspect, and often we know it like, you know, salespeople are trained to sort of get you to say yes, you know, in the moment, because they know that once you have time to think about it, it could. It could be a no. But some salespeople actually, like, if they really want, like, a true yes, they will give you time to think about it and sort of realize this is something that you really need in your life. You. A product or service that you really need. But if we do, if. If we are really feeling that pressure to go along with other people. One of the psychological concepts that I've uncovered is what I call insinuation anxiety. And this is a distinct type of anxiety that we feel when we have concern over implying that somebody else cannot be trusted or that they're incompetent or. Or that they're even unethical in some way or sexist or racist. So, for example, when you're with the doctor that we mentioned, if they're telling you to do something and you feel some time pressure and things, it's very hard to say no to your doctor because first of all, there's an expectation that the doctor has your best interests at heart. Right. So we all know, do no harm. And so if we reject what they're saying, it implies that we don't trust them and we don't like to do that. We don't like to sort of imply anything negative about the other person, especially when they're right there in front of you. It's the same thing when your boss asks you maybe to take a shortcut or to do something. You don't want to say anything because it's very difficult to sort of imply that they're incompetent. And so this insinuation anxiety is really a powerful force that I've discovered that keeps us silent and compliant with other people. But just naming it goes a long way to managing it once we know what we're dealing with is this. I don't want to insinuate that somebody can be untrustworthy. We can really understand what's going on with ourselves or that we're worried about offending. We become so worried about offending the other people that we let our own values go. I can describe a Situation here where it was a faculty meeting and there was a young woman professor that was joining this committee that had four senior men in it. And it was the first time she was joining this grants committee and they had to evaluate who should receive a grant and who shouldn't. So quite important decisions for people's careers. And it came to one applicant that was a black man. And she said the conversation then turned and appeared to more be about negative gossip rather than the qualifications of the person. And she really wanted to speak up. And then she got out of the meeting. She said the one thing that she wanted to do was the thing that she couldn't. And that was to challenge them, to sort of question their integrity. But having meant them for the first time, she just couldn't find herself wanting to do that. And it was just so powerful that that is classic insinuation anxiety because you don't want to imply that they're doing anything wrong. And what I find fascinating about this is that we're doing it to save the face of the other person, that we don't want to question their integrity, but at the same time we're now diluting our own integrity just to save the face of the other person. So we need to think beyond just the other person who's in the room with us. But who else are we harming by going along with this? And it's also insinuation anxiety could be the reason why nurses don't say anything when physicians make mistakes. Right. It could be why co pilots don't speak up to pilots. So it is very powerful and we should be aware of that force and just naming it, getting some distance. The power of the pause makes it easier for us to say no, defy speak up when we need to.

There's so much to explore here. And I love this term insinuation anxiety. Brilliant term because as soon as you said this, and I know the listener has felt this too, they it, that's what it is. I don't know how to articulate it, but the fact that we actually have a word for it, a term that helps us to feel a little bit more empowered and a little bit more capable. And you gave some really high level examples. I also think about times just interpersonally when you think about within a family, you know, hey, especially when you come from, you know, we, we both hear our immigrants here as well. You know, the, the, the elders can be, this might shock people very opinionated about. And it's like, hey, you know what, maybe you have that good, bad dynamic. In your mind, I don't want them to think that I am. Whatever. And so we're considering their feelings, like you said, saving face for the other side, coddling their emotions, while at the same time putting our needs and wants, desires and dreams on the back burner, making sure everybody else feels good. And so now that we have this term, let's actually use the case study that you provided with the woman who is in the. Who is new to the faculty. Recognizing this, if you could be the angel on her shoulder, whispering advice into her ear, how would you coach her through that scenario?

Yeah, that's a really interesting point because, yes, it can happen in sort of smaller stakes situations. You know, I feel like when I go to the hairdresser sometimes and they cut my hair saying, trust me with this new style. And I'm thinking, I want to say, no, just stop. But I can't, you know, or when the taxi driver has taken a really long route, and I'm like, this is not right. But so. But it can be in these larger stakes. And I think when it becomes these larger stakes situations, particularly when it's harming ourselves or harming other people, like in this particular situation with the young woman faculty member, it's then where it becomes really damaging that prioritizing the feelings of the person right in front of you overrides what we value. So if we value integrity and equality, we need to connect with those values. In moments when we feel that tension, you know, we need to think about. So I have what I call the Defiance Compass, and it has three questions. But the last question is, what does a person like me do in a situation like this? And it's such a powerful question, because if you've identified your values as being sort of integrity, fairness, equality, all of those things, then you're asking yourself, what does a person like me, that's who I am with these values. What does a person like me, who values integrity, fairness, whatever value, have? What does a person like me do in a situation like this? And then, you know, the right thing to do is to speak up. You know, that is really important. I want to reward my values. Rather than just reward the face of the person right in front of me, I need to reward those values. And so thinking about that sort of knowing I'm feeling insinuation, anxiety. Just being able to name our feelings gives us more agency to manage them because we know, oh, this is what is happening right now. And I can't just focus on. On the person in front of me because there's Other people to consider here too. And so making it broader too, you know, I mean, the same with the nurses, not speaking up to the physicians. We need to sort of make it safer for people to speak up for. Sure, right. If they think that there's many costs for speaking up. It's also thinking about what are the costs of complying, which we rarely think about. We often think about saying yes as just being neutral and not creating any waves. But there's actually lots of costs. And then those costs can come to harming other people, but also on ourselves that we have costs. Like if we're constantly bowing our head to other people, if we're constantly disregarding our values, I would say it's sometimes bad to be good, you know, so think about that. Sometimes we need to speak up. Otherwise it affects us emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, and of course, then physically. Like if we experience more stress, more anxiety and burnout, dissatisfaction, inflammation, your immune system going down, you know, it really does have a big effect if we're constantly bowing our head to other people and not saying what we truly believe.

And I love this, the, the visual of bowing our head because it has the submissive nature to it. But then also when you do bow your head, your head stays bowed. Like, you don't walk away from that situation feeling proud of what you did. And I think about it through the len of the fear of failure versus the fear of regret. So you might have that fear of failure in that moment, but the thing that's scarier to me is living a life regretting that and having the flashback of sitting in that room and not saying anything. And when you have this identity based framework, it gives you so much more personal authority. Because it's not about how I feel, it's not about how the other person feels, even though those feelings are very real. It's about who am I and what do I do here? And those identity based goals, those identity based decisions, those are stronger because you can walk through the fire. Because I think about for myself as a parent, sometimes you find yourself in really tough situations and you don't know exactly what to do. I mean, there are tons of parenting books, but there are no parenting books that apply to the very specific situation that you're in in this very moment. And so sometimes I just say, okay, my goal is to be the best father possible. What does that mean in this situation? Okay, so I lead with love. And then there might be some activity that I need to do. And sometimes the thing that is hardest to do is recognize that There is nothing to be done other than be present. And sometimes that's the hard part. Right. But if you can figure out what your values are, and then you figure out who you want to be, then you just say, it's almost like authentic method acting, where you're saying, I've created my own character authentically in myself, and there are some external forces that are making me feel a certain way that are kind of baiting me to act inauthentically. But what does this character of Kwame or Sunita do under these circumstances? Oof, that's hard. But I know what the right thing to do is.

Yeah, I love that. Summary is just so powerful when we. When you say is really being authentic. Because that tension that we have at the beginning, you know, whether it's insinuation, anxiety, or another psychological process, that's really, you know, that tension between, this is what I think is the right thing to do. This is what is expected of me in this situation. When we experience that tension, if we just try to disregard it, we do have that rumination aspect, you know, we regret it so much. But if you can get to the final stage five of Defiance and actually have your act of defiance, which is a positive thing, what I've seen is that that tension just dissipates. It melts away. And you actually can live a more honest and more joyful, more authentic life. Right. So you are becoming more yourself, more of your aspirational self, the person you want to be.

Yes. And then you start to tap into your own source of power too. Because if you're being obedient, if you're just complying all the time, and you might be making everybody around you happy, you might, from the outside looking in, look like somebody who's very, very. But it's a really sad place to be when everybody looks at you and says, you're successful, you're happy, you're doing it the right way, but you are the only person in the room who feels poorly about your performance. And then when you start to consistently act authentically, that's power. Because then you realize that going back to what you said at the beginning, now you have your own agency. Right. I don't need other people as much. I don't need that validation. I provide that for myself by acting in accordance to my values.

Yeah, exactly. Right. That once a lot of the compliance comes from that being told and socialized and looking for that external validation. I'm doing the right thing. I'm doing the right thing. Or this is what's expected of me. But to be able to live your life for yourself and your own expectations. Yes. Don't lose your sense of self. Right. We have a saying in academia, I don't know if you've heard this one, that how do I get tenure without losing my soul? Because there's a lot of compliance expected. And I've worked in two professions, both medicine and academia, both very hierarchical, expecting lots of compliance in those situations. And it's like, how do we not lose our soul in those situations? You know, when we see something that's wrong, we have to speak up.

And that. That is a perfect place to land the plane. Sunita, I could talk to you about this forever. This is incredible. And I just have one piece of advice. If you could just put this in a book. Could you do that?

It's all there, ready for you.

This is great. So before you go, remind the listeners again about the book and how they can get in touch with you too.

Absolutely. The book is called Defy the Power of no in a World that Demands yes. It's available everywhere where books are sold. You can also go to my website. It's available in different countries, different retailers. My website is sunitasar.com, s u n I t a s a h dot com. I also have a newsletter where I write on various aspects of compliance and defiance and other aspects of decision making and personal and professional growth. That's called Defiant by Design. You'll find it on Substack, you'll find it on my website. You'll find other ways to connect with me on LinkedIn and other social media. So check me out.

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you so much. This is a wonderful conversation.

Okay, Simone, Floor is yours. It's beautiful because the no is actually positive. So it makes me think, like, if you say yes when you want to say no, it's like a virus because it goes into your body and you don't feel it and you don't pay any cost. But then over time, it gets worse and worse force in your body and it can kill you. Whereas if we say no, it might hurt at the beginning, but then over time it will be softer and softer and it will protect us.

Right, right. I think that's so true because, you know, we worry so much about saying no and the initial cost of that that we forget, like, you know, how much it's going to cost to us when we say yes. And so I think that's a great way to. To visualize it. In a way, like, you know, compare it to a virus or a vaccine. I also think saying no, I call this the Defiance ripple effect. Defiance domino effect. It has a ripple effect that if you defy and say no, you'll see it has, like, positive effects throughout society. So if you speak up, for example, if that faculty member had spoken up in that meeting and just asked, what do you mean by that? Or should we go back to the qualifications? Or. So I've said something that's not confrontational. So is clarification not confrontational. But there might be somebody else in that meeting that was also uncomfortable. And, you know, it helps them, too. And then the next time you're in a meeting with those people, they will. They might change their behavior. They might not, but they might. Might just change their behavior when you're around. They might change the behavior when other people in the room that you had spoken out too, are also around. So it starts having a ripple effect once you say something, even something small.

I love this metaphor, too. There's so many metaphors here, too, because we have the vaccination effect. You're protecting yourself. I like that. And I like how visceral that is too. Because when you say yes, when you mean no, it feels bad. But then the truth is it feels worse over time. It just keeps on getting worse. I don't know if you all experience this, but it's like the. You just keep on replaying that almost like. Like you're watching ESPN from hell of your worst. Your worst performance. And this is judgmental version, just circling the mistake. You see that? You see where you said yes right there, and you should have shut up.

That's when it started to go wrong, you know?

Exactly. You see, all downhill from there. That. That's so cool. Because then if you have that larger mentality, it's like, yeah, this is going to hurt right now, but it will not hurt as bad that those replays through your head all the time. And then you think about the positive side too. It's like, hey, but let's also keep the larger picture in mind because they're positive effects, too. We always think about the negative side when we focus on somebody else because we're saying to ourselves, okay, yeah, I'm going to say yes, because if I don't say yes, they will feel bad. And I focus on protecting their negative experience, Protecting them from a negative experience. But then I don't think about availing other people, not just myself, to the positives of appropriately setting my boundaries in this situation.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

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