The Problem With Safe Spaces With Dr. Melissa Crum

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Thanks for having me.

It is our pleasure. We've been friends for over a decade now. I feel like this invite is long overdue. So thanks for coming.

No, I mean, it's crazy how, you know, time flies with grad school and then life and all of the things, but I was so glad to hear you reach out. I see you doing such big things. I'm just humbled to be in your presence.

When people ask about my strategy, I'm just like, I'm just trying to be like the Melissa Crumb of negotiation.

That's my goal.

So for our listeners who might not know you, can you tell them a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Absolutely. So I am Dr. Melissa Crumb with Mosaic Education Network, diversity and equity practitioner. An artist, author, researcher. I work with schools, nonprofits, museums, companies to help them build better relationships with the diverse communities they serve. Really helping them think through policies, practices, and procedures to ensure they have the most inclusive workplace and learning place they could possibly have. And really helping people be who they say they want to be in real, practical and applicable ways.

That's great. That is great. And so now Sitang, again, playing a little bit of devil's advocate. We're more diverse than ever. Why is it so important to still do this type of work?

Yeah, you know, for some people, DEI work is kind of new, but it's really been around for several decades at this point. And the big part is really understanding there's a lot of ways we can think about diversity. Oftentimes, when people think of it, they stop at race, which is important. But we need to think about nation of origin. We have people who have disabilities, folks who are neurodiverse, people who have accents. We have a lot of research on accent bias, thinking about gender and thinking about parental status, caregiver status. How are our workplace policies flexible and inclusive in ways of folks when we're thinking about the lives that they have and who they have to care for? So when we're thinking about diversity, it's really expansive and also remembering that we're not just one identity. Right. I am also a woman. I'm also African American. I'm also all these other things. So when we're really thinking about the complexity of how people show up in the world, we can be more aware of how to ensure that they can be as successful as they want to be in our spaces of learning in our workplace.

I love it. I love it. Well, great. And now in this episode, everybody, we are going to tackle a topic that is potentially controversial, which is fun to talk about, right? Because we're all about difficult conversations. It's an opportunity, right? So we're going to talk about the concept of safe spaces and why that concept may be potentially problematic. And then we can talk about what is a bit more empowering, the concept that you brought to me that I've never heard before, that I thought was really fascinating. So can you start off by telling us a bit about your perspective on the concept of safe spaces?

Yeah. So safe space is really this idea that people use when they're trying to have a tough conversation, and they want people to feel vulnerable. They want people to feel comfortable, to share what they're thinking, what they're feeling. But it really is grounded in the assumption that that's possible in that moment, that it assumes levels of trust, it assumes level of vulnerability, and it assumes safety. So I believe that safe spaces can only happen when someone in that conversation has a duty of care. So that's the therapist, that's a counselor, someone who is, to a degree, responsible for holding a space for that person. But when both people are responsible for ensuring that we are caring, that we are open, that we are honest, that we're respectful, that we can't guarantee that folks are going to feel happy.

And.

Honest and comfortable in those conversations. So I say instead, let's work towards having a brave space. So a brave space is saying, we're both coming to this conversation believing that we are saying what we're saying with positive intent. We're going to believe positive intent first, that even if you say something harmful, I'm going to believe that you weren't trying to cause harm. And so if we enter that conversation, then we can share with the other person, hey, you said this thing, this is how this landed on me and this is why. And the other person also being brave, said, oh, that was not my intention. This is what I was trying to convey. Do you mind if I share it? Try and share in another way. And so we recognize that we can cause harm and people can cause harm to us. And so when we're thinking about brave space, what we're trying to do is say, I'm going to be honest and open and also give and receive feedback in the way that honors folks full humanity and gives grace and forgiveness, but also accountability. So just because you didn't mean to say that harmful thing in that harmful way doesn't mean it just gets dismissed. It means that we still need to figure out how to repair our relationship after that so we can remain in community. And so we're not just trying to say the most perfect thing in this moment because that's impossible. But what we can do is say we can be our best self in this moment.

I love this. This is really, really good. And I really like the thinking about the safe space from the perspective of somebody who has a duty of care because a therapist, parent, a teacher, right, they have a duty to make sure that as much as possible, people feel safe in that environment. But then it's sounding like when we're thinking about brave spaces, a lot of times we don't have that luxury where we don't have authority over the person or the situation. And I think about within the workplace, oftentimes it's peers communicating with peers and none of us have authority over each other. So we cannot force a safe space. And if we try to create that safe space by mandating certain behaviors, it might be taken the wrong way and ultimately cause more harm than good when it comes to the interaction.

That's really important when we think about how power is operating, right? So if we're talking with peers, we can't necessarily, we can't control what that peer, we don't have power over that peer. Right? To ensure that there's not only can ensure that there going to be some kind of consequences if they do something wrong, but we can't really control that space in the same kind of way. But that brave space becomes even more important when you have that power. So if you are that manager and you need to have that brave conversation with your Direct report. When not only you as a manager or a leader, a people leader, needs to give feedback to your direct report, but when your direct report needs to give feedback to you, you should be brave enough to be able to get that critical feedback from the person you're leading to say, hey, the way you're leading in these ways aren't helpful. In these ways they are. Is there a way we can work towards this? Because sometimes the higher we get into the organizational chart or the other or however more powerful we are in an organization or in a space, the less likely we are to be brave and accept other people's bravery because we have the power to dismiss it. And so how are you negotiating within yourself? How am I going to leverage my power for good to empower the person to give space for them to say how they can be successful with my help, am I willing to do that work? And that gets tricky because in your space, there's a good chance you don't have to. Right. There's a good chance you don't have to lean into bravery. You don't have to take into account that information, that feedback from someone who has less power than you.

Yeah. And you know, what's important to note here too, is that we're not advocating for recklessness and we're not saying that safety, comfort, and vulnerability are irrelevant or unnecessary or not things that we should aspire to. I think what we're doing is we're taking a more empowered position and recognize that even if we are not in a situation or a conversation that is traditionally designated as safe in the textbooks type of term, we can still be successful in advocating for ourselves and speaking truth to power if necessary, even without that context. Because a lot of times we don't have the luxury of navigating within what is considered a safe space. But we don't need it because we can create these brave spaces and still have the critical conversations that we have to have.

Absolutely.

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It becomes really tiptoe around something that they don't have a whole lot of information or experience around. So whether that's around race or gender or sexuality or something, and having that kind of vulnerability to say, hey, I don't know if I have the right language. Right? So you don't want to be reckless, but you can say, let me tell you what my limitations are. And I want to own at the beginning of this conversation that the language that I have might not be right. And I just want to invite you to let me know if I'm saying the incorrect language, but I just want to. Essentially, you're sharing your intent on the front end and you're not being so careful that you actually don't get to the crux of the matter that you really need to address. And so if we start off with that vulnerability and that openness, even more so, if you're a position of power, you're kind of modeling that bravery. You start giving permission to everyone else to be brave. And again, bravery, like you said, it's not recklessness. It's not like you just saying whatever you feel, you know. On that note, it's always interesting when I'm working with folks or clients who feel frustrated, like, oh, this language is always changing. I don't even know what to say. What do I call people? And I just want to be able to say what I want to say. I say, in what situation are you able to say what you want to say and talk how you want to talk? I said, do you talk to your partner the way you talk to your kids? Do you talk to your friend the way you talk to your mama? No. You change how you talk based on who's in front of you, what the goals of the conversation are, and the type of relationship you have. So to say that you want to have a situation where you can just say what you want to say and use the language that you want to. In no other world, in no other place in your life do you do that. So why do you want to do that here? Why do you have the expectation to do that here? And they're like, oh, well, yeah, there's a type of freedom that you're trying to cultivate that is imposing and exclusionary. So why would you want to do that? And that lets me know that you're trying to tap into a particular type of power that is harmful and not helpful. And that's even worse when you're a leader. And that means someone has given you that permission, either covertly or overtly, to do that, and no one has checked you on that. And so that's when we start digging into what are your accountability and responsibility systems in your organization. When we talk about workplace culture that people can just bully their way into conversations and nobody checks them.

Yes. Oh, this is so good. This is so good. Because this is something that I hear a lot just from. And it's so funny because it comes from people of all backgrounds, all political persuasions, all races, those type of things. I want to say what I want to who I want, when I want. And again, it's not realistic. And then. And then, of course, they want to have control over the outcome, too. And I want it to work. Okay? So as a negotiation expert, let me tell you, that's just not the way it works. Let me say whatever I want, and I want it to land. That's just. That's not how brains work.

Okay?

And so we have to recognize this. And so I want to dig deeper into this, Melissa, because you touched on something that I think, again, in some circles, is considered problematic or controversial. And so what you're saying is in different circumstances, you represent yourself differently depending on what the goals of the situation are. Like both of us were parents. There's sometimes I want to say there are things on my heart that I want to share with my children, but doing so would be damn near illegal. Right. So I need to check myself. Right. So am I being somewhat inauthentic in that moment? I guess you could consider it that way. Or am I being tactful in understanding how I need to communicate to the person in front of me? And so the term that can be considered controversial, code switching. And so when we think about code switching, this is adjusting the way that you talk to comport yourself in a way that maybe matches society that helps you to blend in. Sometimes it is tagged along with assimilation. So sacrificing parts of yourself in order to be accepted by others. And so there's a. It's a fine line to toe in those situations, because sometimes people might feel like it is an inappropriate sacrifice of who they are. So let's dig deeper into this because I think it's really important, and I think we could help a lot of people when it comes to understanding when and how to do it when appropriate.

Absolutely. You know, so code switching often, as you said, in my experience, is connected to assimilation. Right. So there's a way in which you are, and then you want to be accepted by whatever that space is. And so you take on those characteristics, mannerisms of that space. There's a really great. I mentioned that I'm an artist and I use creativity in my workshops. And there's this really great short by Pixar called Purl P U R L, which is indicative of that. This idea of, like, changing who you are to fit into this workplace. And I won't get into detail. I say, go ahead and search it up for those that are listening. It's really great. But what happens is there's pros and cons to that, right? So on one hand, you have to recognize what is this workplace culture that I can kind of find myself within and for me to be read in a way that makes me kind of legible. And what I mean is when I say, what does it mean to be professional in this space? And is that aligned with who I am on an everyday basis, or is that aligned with part of me that I can tap into? And that's. That's. I'm still comfortable with that. And I think we switch all the time. Like I mentioned, like. Like I mentioned before, like, you're going to talk to your boss in a particular kind of way, that you're not going to talk to your grandfather, you're not going to talk to your neighbor. Like, you're going to do that switch. And so I think if we think about this big kind of canvas of who we are, and there are elements of us that we tap into a bit more depending on who's in front of us. And I think if we recognize all of that as being part of us, then we're not being authentic. We're kind of pulling. We're leaning into tools and elements of us that are strategic, and we're being strategic about it. I think the challenge becomes when we start pulling in things that are outside of that canvas, that are not necessarily necessarily useful for us and becomes something that goes against our core beliefs and who we are. And so with. With Pearl in this. In this animation, she's. She's really a ball of yarn, right? And she really. She goes into this corporate space where everybody has these suits and everybody looks like that. So she's like, weaves herself a new suit, and she starts making these, like, problematic jokes the way these. Her. These guys are. And she starts, like, getting really aggressive in the room, in the decision rooms. Like, that's not who you are. You're starting to be something else. And so that's why when we're talking about when organizations are thinking about bringing on new folks. They need to be real clear about what their workplace culture is and have those opportunities for particular candidates to have conversations with folks who are there so you can start thinking about how much of who I am am I will to negotiate to be successful in this space. And you have real. And the hope is that people are being honest with you about what that space is and you're able to kind of be in that workplace to see how it goes. But like you said, we're both parents and sometimes I want to share what's on my heart with my child. But you got to think, what is the outcome? Yeah, sure. What is the outcome that you want? What's the best way to how is this person on the other end of this conversation going to receive this Right. And what's the best way to do that? And so you just negotiating within yourself to get to that outcome that you hope you'll get to. But you have to be self aware and then also aware of that other person. That requires a degree of emotional intelligence to be brave. And everybody is not willing to really dig into self awareness to really understand. Wait, how am I really thinking right now? And how am I feeling right now? And how am I. How is what I'm saying landing on this person? How am I reading their body language? Am I hearing what they're saying? Am I reflective, listening? Am I saying what I heard you say was this? And so that when we aren't necessarily code switching in a way that is inauthentic, we're tapping into pieces of ourselves and also pieces of the other person so that we can mutually get to a place that we feel is successful and helpful.

Oh, this is great. And Melissa, I wish we would have had this call like last year, because I would have just taken the transcript of this conversation and just put it in my book, how to have Difficult Conversations about Race. Because I mean, you articulated it really well. And I think when you consider it from the perspective of making inappropriate compromises that feel like we're sacrificing parts of ourselves, that's where it becomes really problematic. And when you think about the workplace cultures that we're trying to facilitate that are more inclusive, if we have a workplace culture where the person feels like the only way that they can survive and thrive in this environment is if they sacrifice core parts of themselves, that's where people might say yes to the money and then leave for a different opportunity where they can actually be themselves. So that's why you see so many organizations where they struggle to retain people of color and women because it's not inclusive. They don't feel like they can be themselves in that environment. And when you think about the concept of brave spaces, one of the things that you said that I thought was really powerful and I want to go deeper into this is essentially assuming positive intent. And so tell us more about that. And yeah, let's just keep that question simple. Tell us more about that. When it comes to assuming positive intent.

Yeah, so I'll. What comes to mind is, well, essentially assuming positive intent is not us not going to the worst case scenario of why this person said what they said and create a story that says.

I.

Am open to giving this person grace because they don't know the impact of what they just said. So that means I am willing to share with them an impact that I'm going to assume they're unaware of. And so you now have entered into a conversation of learning and engagement as opposed to reprimand and accusatory kind of language. And then the person getting defensive.

Again.

You can't completely control that, but the way you've entered into that is believing that this person just doesn't have the knowledge. Now, that doesn't mean later on in that conversation you find out that the person actually does not have positive intent. You might find that out, but I would argue 90% of the time, most people are not trying to cause harm. So I'm thinking of. I was in this. I was actually in this course. So I was a participant in a course on diversity inclusion with a host of other DEI practitioners. And the person who was leading the course was talking about different ways of thinking about identity, and she said differently abled. Now, I have been using Differently Abled for a long time to talk about people with disabilities, but it's a way of. When I read the article, however, many years ago, it was a way of trying to not talk about disability as something negative to say that we all have different abilities. And so like, oh, okay, so I have been using Differently Abled. Well, this disability advocate was on the call and he went into it with positive intent and said, hey, just wanted to point out for many folks who have disabilities, they see using Differently Able as a microaggression because their disability is part of their identity. So just say this person is deaf or this person has polio or whatever it is. And also it can be aligned with people who say, like, there's no race, we're just the human race as a way of erasure. Right. So when you say, oh, I don't think about race like we're the human race, you're essentially erasing my experience as a black person. You're erasing someone's experience as a native or indigenous person. They're going to have unique. We have unique experiences based on our race because particularly in the United States, so much of our systems and institutions have race at the center. So to say differently abled is essentially to say like, oh, everybody has a disability. It's like, no, everybody does not. And everybody has a different experience based on whatever that disability is. So just say it. And so what he was saying was saying differently able is really just help, is just giving people who are able bodied a little bit more comfort in saying, engaging in that conversation. So you're centering the person with the more privileged identity in that conversation. So I was like, oh, I didn't know that. Like, I was like, right. And so I don't like asking people who are, especially if they have an identity that I don't have to now teach me. So I'm like, now teach me all your ways. We're on zoom. So I send a private message, say, I'm not asking you to like, teach me, but I am asking you for a example of if you can give me an example of something that I could go read to learn more. And he sent me that. But the teacher was not as gracious, right? And so she was more like, well, you know, words change all the time. You know, that's just the word I'm using, but you know what I'm talking about. And I was like, oh, you're teaching this whole class on diversity and inclusion and you're not practicing this. You're not practicing that vulnerability and self awareness that's required here. Because the more brave answer would be, oh, thank you for that. I did not know that. Let me go back and rethink some of my language. I apologize if I causing microaggression anybody with a disability on this call, right? And then she did it like, again and said, differently able. And so I said, well, let me attempt to be in allyship, right? And said, and so he doesn't have to try and do it again and try and really reiterate that all over again. And I say, okay, well how about we rethink some of our language and remember the power of language as we are in this conversation. And really, if we're talking about particular disability, can we specifically say the disability? And she again, was not that gracious. But when we're in those conversations, if we just take a moment and just say, oh, I'm learning something new and this is uncomfortable. Sometimes you have to say that out loud, man, that was a little uncomfortable. I'm kind of leading this conversation and I messed up. But that's also part of this work, is we're all learning. And I thank you for giving me grace and sharing with me. And that's another thing. If people are really willing to engage in difficult conversations and be better, you want to be thankful for someone who's giving you feedback because you want to say, oh, I never want to do that again. Like, I never want to say that harmful thing again. I never want to do, make anybody feel this kind of way again. And so therefore, I'm going to really take in this information that you shared with me and I'm going to try my best to apply it and say, and be grateful for it. But too often people don't do that. They get defensive. And I'm going to say, I've never done. I've never been that person. Because I absolutely have. So I'm not going to skid on this pedestal and be like, I have always said the right thing. I have not right. What I try and do. What I find myself getting into that defensive stance is go back to that person. Sometimes I need a moment, sometimes I need a couple hours, sometimes I need a day or so. And say, you know what? I came to that conversation not in the best way. And I wasn't really grateful for the ways in which you were trying to share new information with me. And I want to apologize for that. If you are open to a conversation for me to share what my intent was, I would love that. But if not, that's completely okay because you're not required to engage with me in that way. Right. And they don't owe me anything. Right. They don't owe me the time to have that conversation with me, to share how I'm. What I meant to do.

Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. This is really, really good. And listeners, what we're going to do too, after this episode, we are going to have an opportunity to, to practice, to see what this looks like with a sparring session. So make sure you stay tuned for the next episode. But, Melissa, before you go, can you give yourself a shout out, let them know about how they can get in touch and work with you?

Absolutely. You can find me@mosaiceducationnetwork.com you can also find me on Instagram, Mosaic Education Network. I'm sometimes on Twitter Elissacrum, but come and find me on my website. You can sign up for our newsletter. We send great information every every two weeks. So would love to see you chime in and all those things. I reply to all my emails so share with me your experiences. Would love to continue to be in conversation with you.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

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