Tips for Navigating Awkward Conversations in Business with Alicia Shaw

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Alicia, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's great to have you. Another teammate on the show. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yes. Alicia Shaw. I'm an attorney with Carlisle, Patchen and Murphy, and I do our employment law. We usually represent employers, so I'm typically on the management side, and I do a lot of HR consulting, a lot of counseling for our employers, and a lot of compliance work. In terms of what do I do when this happens and what happens, what do I need to do if someone makes a request for an accommodation? Just a lot of very basic HR counseling and consulting, and it's a lot of fun.

Fantastic. And so everybody, in case you weren't up to date. So I'm also an attorney at Carlisle, Patchen and Murphy because I am a stereotypical Caribbean American with multiple jobs. So if you need legal representation in Ohio, we have you and you could work with Alicia. And so we are excited today because we're talking about awkward conversations. And so before we get into the how to's, why is it so important for us to. To have these conversations and have them.

Well, so from my perspective, as I said, being on the employer side of things, but even if you're representing an employee, or even if you are the employee or you are the employer, I mean, there are things that happen at work that you just have to address. And sometimes they involve personal feelings, sometimes they involve awkward situations, sometimes they involve things, things that might broach inappropriate behavior. And so you can't just not say anything. So I think it's very important, especially for an employer to know, hey, these are the things to keep in mind when I have to go to my employee and either perhaps issue discipline, but more importantly, create a work environment that is beneficial to not only my company, but, but also to my employees. And so a lot of times I'm in a position where I'm counseling someone who's had an issue come up that they need to address with an employee and they don't know how to do it.

Yeah, no, it makes sense. And one of the things I always say is that sometimes the war chooses you. We don't have the option. Sometimes we just have to do what we need to do.

Absolutely. And I think every person who started a business doesn't, you know, they know what they're doing for their business. But becoming an employer is so different. And a lot of people tell me, I never thought I'd have to have this discussion. Right, but you do.

Exactly. Well, fantastic. Well, audience, the three things that we're going to talk about on this topic are first, the importance of maintaining your professionalism and focus and more specifically, how to do that because it's easy to say it, much harder to do it. The second thing is the importance of practice and more specifically how to practice before the conversation. And lastly, the importance of a follow up check in in order to build the relationship and how to do that too. But before we get into that again, we have a story. So we're going to work from a case study, one that Alicia had worked on specifically, obviously with some key factors changed for anonymity. And so Alicia, how would you get us started that story?

Yes. So I had a call from a very, very nice business owner who, who is in an industry that is very, I would say it's, it's very blue collar. You know, it's not a services, it's, it's in kind of like a manufacturing. So you know, you're dealing with a lot of men. And this particular client called and said, hey, you know, we have someone who is sending naked pictures of himself to co workers and what do I do? So, you know, starting with, you know, the most awkward of situations. You know, first of all, you know, you have the competing issues of, well, you know, this is a trusted employee and this is not something that I would ever expect I would have to deal with. And secondly, of course it has to be dealt with and you have to have that conversation. So how do you have it?

So when we're actually having the conversation, maintaining professionalism and focus. What should we keep in mind here?

Well, what I always tell a client in this situation, and not even this particular situation, but something less extreme, you need to make sure that you have a clear idea of what you want to come out of the conversation. So going into it, you know, is it something where I just need to address something small? Is it something where there's going to be a termination at the end of the conversation? As in, you know, the situation we discussed where you have someone who's acted so egregiously that you're going to have to terminate them, or at the. At a minimum, there's going to have to be some significant discipline. So you have to go in mind or you have to start with what's the end goal? The end goal, of course, as the employer is usually, you know, you can control that to a certain extent, but getting there, I think a lot of people are scared that they're going to say something wrong. You know, they don't want to get themselves, as the employer, in trouble. But they also, you know, don't really want to talk about things that are of a sensitive nature, especially in the situation where there might be something sexual going on between employees. That's always kind of an embarrassing thing to have to discuss with someone. So I always say, you know, don't, you know, take your emotions out of it. You, you know, sit someone down, start the conversation, get right to the point. Don't, don't allow yourself to be dragged into, you know, the emotion of the situation. If the employee or the other person is getting upset or is argumentative, you know, you know what you're there to. To do and it has to be done. And, you know, you can give a reason as long as it's a truthful reason, and stick to that and really say, you know, I understand you're upset, but the decision has been made, or, you know, you need to stop doing X, Y and Z. But don't. I always caution people, you know, don't dance around the subject to the point where the person you're talking to doesn't realize that they've been terminated or doesn't realize that what they did was inappropriate.

Yeah. And so one of the key points that you mentioned there was making sure you control your emotions and keep everybody focused so their emotions don't get problematic for the conversation. And again, that makes sense. But how do we do it? That's the hardest part. So what advice do you have for the listeners there?

I usually advise that you have a phrase that you can come back to. And it depends on what the end result of the conversation is. For example, if you are going to have to terminate the individual's employment because of something that's happened, the decision has been made, you know, don't apologize. The decision has been made, I understand you're upset. And then quickly move into here are your benefits that are available to you after the termination? If it's something that is not, you know, if it's something that you just want an employee to stop doing at the workplace, you know, again, I would have a phrase that you practice that you're comfortable with that shows that you're in control of the situation. And really, you know, if the person gets upset, do not go down that path. It's very easy to, I think a lot of people try to, you know, avoid these difficult conversations because they don't want to deal with the aftermath. But you know what? It's unavoidable. Accept it, move forward and keep your mind focused on what you're there to do and get the job done.

Absolutely. And Alicia, it is always refreshing when I have another well trained attorney on the show because you're reminding me of first year writing class like Law one where my writing professor always talked about the phrase that pays. There's something in a previous court decision that a judge said and you just keep on saying that phrase over and over and over again and essentially that's what we're doing. And especially when it comes to having these awkward conversations and setting clear boundaries, you do not need to make the conversation interesting. There are no such thing as style points. Just say what you need to say and if they keep on pushing back, state the same boundary, the same barrier in the exact same way.

I agree. And there's no reason, you know, I always tell people to avoid getting into the nitty gritty discussion. You know, it doesn't benefit anyone usually. And typically it will end up where you could have a meeting that takes 10 minutes, then you have an hour and a half. And I definitely have counseled clients who all of a sudden, you know, they're in a meeting in a discip situation and you know, this has been said and that's been said and this person was called in and then they had a rebuttal and no, don't do any of that. You know, if after your 10 minutes, you know, if there are still issues then you can address them later. But don't keep hashing out the same situation for hours on end.

Absolutely. And I remember in our pre interview chat something that you that you mentioned is keep it simple, keep it professional. And I feel like if we do that, it makes everything a lot easier.

Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, what I always fall back on when I am talking to clients is first of all, respectful. Even if something has. Even if an employee has done something that, like I said, results in their termination, it's still a respectful conversation. And as part of that, you have to be a professional. The worst thing you can do, think, is to engage in the dialogue of, well, you did this and then you did that and then you did this. And so as long as it is professional and simple and short, that's the other thing. I think you'll be in good shape.

Exactly. I tell people all the time it's the shorter the conversation, the easier it's going to be. Again, the more you go on, the more likely it is for you to make a mistake, the more likely it is for you to get off track, and the more likely it is for somebody to see some vulnerability in what you said. Maybe you misstated a fact that wasn't perfectly stated but is completely irrelevant to the overall outcome. Yeah. So just keep it short.

Keep it. What is the famous phrase? Keep it simple? Stupid.

Exactly. As much as you can, for sure. And listeners, I know that, especially if you're still listening, you've gotten something out of this. So make sure you leave a review and subscribe. And if you liked this episode, give Alicia a shout out. Let her know in the reviews. So I think this is perfect, a perfect opportunity for us to transition into the second point practice. Because again, we say, okay, Alicia, this sounds good. I'm going to keep it simple, I'm going to keep it professional, I'm going to keep emotions out of it, and then we go and perform and we fall apart. So can you tell us a bit more about practice? Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And we Will be right back after this.

Well, I always, you know, sometimes people feel better with us script, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I personally am not a script person, but I do think that it's important to lay out the key points. So, you know, if it's better to write out what you would like to say and practice it that way, or if you can take some highlights, you know, we know that you engaged in X behavior. This is a violation of our company policy here. And accordingly, we need to issue discipline. You know, X, Y and Z. Just very simple. But again, you know, practicing it a couple times and understand that, you know, even though you want to project control, you know, you can't control what the other person's going to do. So the only thing you can do is control your response. So, like I said, have a phrase ready to go that, that you can fall back on in the event things start spiraling so that you don't get dragged down into that discussion.

Sometimes when we practice, we also need to practice from the other person's perspective. And so what I suggest people do is do two trial runs. The first one that you do from the other person's perspective. So you bring somebody in, like your incredible attorney Alicia, in, and then you try to be the person who is going to be on the receiving end of the awkward conversation from your perspective. It helps you to empathize. And then you do a second trial run from the other side. And I've done this with some of my business clients, too, because for me, I'm always saying, hey, put me in, coach. I would love to negotiate this for you, but sometimes the relationship is so personal that they say, listen, the relationship is not ending. And so if I bring in my lawyer to have this conversation, then it is going to cause some issues down the road. So I want to handle it myself. And so sometimes for me as the lawyer, I go through it with them, too.

Absolutely. And, you know, in an employment situation, I sometimes do have clients who want me to do the termination. And I, you know, that's never. That could create issues down the line that the client might not intend in the event, you know, something goes wrong and there's litigation and all of a sudden your lawyer is your witness. And so I don't ever participate in that. But I am happy to talk through all of these scenarios and, well, what happens if they say this and what happens if they say. Because sometimes depending on the person, you know, they feel so much better having at least gone through all the possibilities in their head. And can practice the response. But ultimately it's usually the business owner's responsibility and it just comes with the territory. When you have employees, someday you're going to have to have an awkward conversation.

Absolutely. And I really like the point that you said about what if they say this? And that's really something I think that people miss because I hear people, what they would say is, man, I hope they don't say this or I hope they don't ask this question. And then they go into the conversation and the person does that exact thing that they're fearing and they still have no response. And so I think we have to think about the worst possible scenario and then saying, okay, if this were to happen, then I would say what, you want to have that prepared.

Absolutely, absolutely. And that goes to, you know, being able to control the conversation as much as possible.

Exactly. Yeah. No, I love it. And listeners, I know you've heard this before, make sure you check out the negotiation guides. So if you go to americannegotiationinstitute.com guide, you can get free guides that help you to prepare for these difficult conversations. Again, the more you prepare, the more you practice, the better you will be. And let's wrap this up with the last point. Doing the follow up check in. And for most people, they say, well, I already had this awkward conversation.

Glad.

That'S over, I'm never going back to that. But you are saying we need to. So tell us more about that.

So in the event that it's something that's not so egregious, you know, this employee or you know, whatever it is you want them to stay on and they are planning to, and we're going to move forward in this relationship, it's good to build rapport. I don't advise, you know, if it's something that, that you do need to check in on, let's say, you know, hey, you know, for example, if you've had an employee that's complained of being harassed by another, by a co worker, of course that's something you need to check in on. But you know, something that is less serious, you know, it's not something you have to belabor. The point's been made. You've reached out to the employee, you made a note in the personnel file. So if you ever have to go back and say, you know what, you haven't improved on this or that or I noticed that you're doing this again, then you can go back to your records and say, hey, we had this conversation on December 1st of 2020, and we're right back where we were. And so you'll be ready next time in case you have to do the unfortunate further discipline or a termination. But absent that, you know, it, move on. It's, it's, you know, it's only going to be more awkward if you make it awkward. So, you know, moving on, checking in, hey, how are you doing today? You know, don't, don't avoid the person just because of that conversation, because that will, that will make potentially a good employee want to leave if they, if they feel uncomfortable after, you know, you've had to have that conversation. So the goal is, you know, it's always to make a more respectful and more professional work environment. And so I think if that's the goal and that's how you behave and you're collegial about it and respectful, others will follow suit.

Yeah, it makes so much sense. And Alicia, I know we've all been in these types of scenarios, these circumstances where there's a person where we have an awkward relationship and we have to go past their office or whatever it happens to be, and, you know, you're thinking about the awkwardness, they're thinking about the awkwardness, and we just make eye contact quickly averts and then move, move on. It's so hard. It's a natural human thing, but we really have to lean into it. And I really like what you said because we're not dwelling on it. We're not saying, hey, Alicia, you remember that awkward thing? I just wanted to check in to make sure you're okay. Still. No, we're just, let's just be humans together again. I can check in on you, see how you're doing. And then we're slowly making really simple and safe deposits in the relationship bank account. And then we can get the relationship back to where we want it to be.

Absolutely. I think nine times out of 10, everybody on both sides just wants to do what's, what's best. And so sometimes, most of the time, the person who you have to have the awkward conversation with isn't necessarily aware that what they're doing is either offensive to someone else or, you know, something that might be problematic. So typically, just advising them of that is going to take care of the situation. And so you don't want to make situation worse by harping on it, so to speak. But then there are the situations that don't get better and you have to revisit the issue. And that's, of course, when you go back to step one.

And so any Ideas or kind of simple rules that we can follow when it comes to problems that persist and how to have that termination conversation. Because the way we work through it, we said, okay, we had the awkward conversation, now we're rebuilding the relationship, let's say it doesn't continue. What are some things that we need to keep in mind for ending the relationship?

So it's really interesting. I have a lot of clients who are afraid to give someone a reason for their termination. I think they're just scared to say the wrong thing. And I always tell clients that, you know what I think on the receiving end, you know, if it's a surprise to that individual, or maybe it's not a surprise, maybe this is follow up that you've had before, you know, they should know the reason. You know, even if it's something simple like a reduction in force or, you know, the company this year especially the company is not doing well and we have to reorganize, you know, give them something. Now saying that I don't recommend again, you know, keep it short, keep it simple. The decision's been made. If it's something based on a past discipline issue, definitely I would reference that past time that you talked about this situation before and the fact that it's not gotten any better, but at least the person is left with something as opposed to, I have no idea why I was terminated. I think most of the litigation that comes in employment decisions, when there's a termination, it's because the individual who was terminated just out of the blue and I was given no reason. And from the employer's perspective, it's hard because you're afraid to say the wrong thing. But, you know, as long as what you're saying is truthful, I don't think that there's a problem to state a short and simple reason for the termination.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yes. And I think it just provides some closure.

Absolutely. And humans have this need to know. We're always asking why. Especially when something bad happens, we're always asking why. And so again, to your point, that helps to give them that closure. And one of the things that we said before the interview that I thought was really interesting was your prediction on what could happen next year when people start to hopefully get back to the office. So again, sell the audience on why this is so important right now.

So it's interesting, as an employment attorney, you do get a lot of very different kinds of stories. And what I will say is Covid has kept everyone apart and you can't go out with Your co workers, nobody's having Christmas parties. There's a whole list of things that have been canceled. And what I was saying before we got on the podcast was in 2021, at some point, there's going to be a reopening and everyone's going to be unleashed. And I just have a feeling that, you know, it's just. It gets very tempting for people to, especially if there's alcohol around, to do something that they may later regret. And that's when, as an employer, you just really have to be careful about, you know, even when you're planning those back to work celebrations or, you know, whatever it may be, be mindful of the fact that people of the have foregone these kinds of events for so long that you really want to be able to safely celebrate and not have to have these conversations after a holiday party. And I've had many clients that have had to. So, yes. And if you're in that situation, watch our. Watch our interview.

Well, Alicia, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was so much fun. And listeners, hey, remember, I'm a business owner, too, and when I have legal needs, guess who drafted my contracts and handled all of my employment work? Alicia. Because good lawyers hired good lawyers to represent them. So not only am I a part of cpm, Carlyle, Paget, and Murphy as a business lawyer, but I am also a happy client as well. So reach out to Alicia if you have any questions or legal needs. And, Alicia, any parting words for our audience before you go?

My approach to my law practice is I'm happy to talk through the difficult moments with you because, you know, every business owner has them, and when you have employees, it can magnify certain issues. And it's really been a fun practice. But most important, I'm there to help my client.

Absolutely. Well, thank you again, Alicia. This was a lot of fun.

Thank you.

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