Tired of Unproductive Talks? Tips for More Meaningful Negotiations in Work and Life

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen to. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Carly, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thanks for having me. Long time coming.

Yes, yes. It's a pleasure to have you. And so how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. So a little bit about me. Hi, I'm Carly Wood, two time graduate of the Ohio State University. So I know I'm in safe hands talking to a fellow Buckeye today, but a little bit about what I do. I work with the Ohio State Alumni association in advocacy and initiatives for Young Alumni engagement. So part of how Kwame and I first came in contact was working with our Young Alumni Academy, but I also serve as the advisor for the student Alumni Council.

Amazing. Yes. So this is a friendly territory here. Everybody's and listeners, even if you don't go to Ohio State, which most of you don't, we just want to open this up because with working with the Young Alumni Academy, really great to see the next generation of leaders. And last time I worked with them, every time I worked with them, there's so many questions. And so we had Carly to come in right now to essentially advocate on behalf of the students and ask some of those lingering questions that we weren't able to get to. So this will actually be a reverse interview. So I'm handing the wheel over to Carly and I'm just going to sit back and let her drive the ship right now. So I'll put it in your capable hands. So what's question number one?

Yeah, for sure. So we accomplished a lot in our most recent session of Young Alumni Academy, but when you're talking about something as complex and nuanced as negotiation or conflict resolution, 90 minutes really isn't enough time to get into all of the weeds that way. So one of the lingering questions was, how do you avoid a myopic one track mindset when you're in negotiation and keep that discussion flowing?

Yeah. Well, first it has to start with ourselves because a lot of times when we think about somebody having a one track mind or being very rigid, a lot of times we don't recognize how we might be leading to that outcome with the way that we are letting the conversation flow. So when we think, when we think about ourselves as it relates to these negotiations, just keep this one rule in mind. The more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve a victory. Right. And so a lot of times we say there's only one option, we're going to do this one way, it's my way. And if they don't get on board, they're the problem. But one of the things I like to do when it comes to persuasion is I think about it from the other person's perspective and if I heard them hear me talk in this way, how would they feel about this conversation? And so, and so for me, I've recognized that being flexible and being open are key parts of persuasion. Because what I'm doing is I'm showing the other person, hey, I'm flexible, I'm open, and you should be too. And I'm going to operate under the assumption that together we can come up with a solution that is better than what either of us could have done by ourselves. And I'm going to say those things at the beginning. So I'm not going to leave it up to chance and just hope that they pick, pick up on those vibes. I'm going to say all of those things. So I'm going to prepare, like I said, I'm going to try to be as open minded as possible. But let's say if we're coming together trying to solve a problem or resolve a conflict, I'd say something like this, Carly, I'm, I've been really looking forward to this conversation because I know there's some challenges that we're working through. But I believe if we work together, we can figure out a best way forward for both of us, something like that. But you're seeing me say we and then figure out, not me imposing my will on you, it's together we are going to figure this out and we're going to find something that doesn't just work for me, but works for you as well. So me, both of us working together, I'm going to really Focus on hammering home those words early and often to set the positive collaborative tone for the conversation.

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and is actionable. So when we're thinking about this audience of students or young professionals, really anybody, the assumption here is that that teamwork or that that vibe of we and us is easier said in more of an in person negotiation or challenging conversation. Right. You can have open body language, you can seem relaxed and show how open minded and open to this dialogue you are. But when communication is over email or it's limited to a teams chat or stack or something like that, where people are having to have these challenging conversations with somebody in their avatar form, does it translate as well to use those words in writing as opposed to in person?

Well, it depends on the complexity of the conversation. So for instance, sometimes the biggest mistake that we make is we try to have the conversation via teams chat or slack or text message when it should be an actual conversation. And this is a mistake I'm seeing more and more frequently in the younger generations because they feel more comfortable just communicating in general using these text only types of options. But in our hope to minimize friction and increase efficiency, we maximize friction and maximize inefficiency by introducing a lot of needless complexity and miscommunication too. So when it comes to using these text channels, if it's a really meaty type of conversation that needs to happen, I just use that as a setup. So I'll use that. And not a setup as in like gotcha, but a setup in terms of like, I'm trying to set the tone in order to turn this into a more one on one live conversation. You know, the best case scenarios go in person, but that's not always possible. So if there's a level of emotion or a level of complexity, the more emotion, more complexity, the more personal the mode of communication. Like I said, in person is best. But if we can't get that, let's go down to video chat. If we can't get that, let's get to just audio call. Right? But the more emotion, more complexity, the more personal mode of communication needs to be. So I'll set the stage with that collaborative language saying, hey, I've noticed that we have this challenge. I think we should have a conversation about this because I want to hear from you and get a better understanding of your perspective and then work with you to see a path forward. So I'm still going to use that collaborative language, but I'm going to use that to parlay this into a more in person mode of communication.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I, I know that we're in this sort of time period where people are either transitioning back to the office or they're having a lot more face to face interaction than they've had over the last handful of years, just in that post Covid sort of world. So these conversations are getting a little bit trickier and a little bit more nuanced when now you have to actually talk to another human being again. So one of the other themes that's come up when I've talked to our young alums or our students is when do you use silence in a negotiation? When is silence your ace in the hole or your power move? When do you suggest using it?

Well, I think it depends on how we're phrasing silence too, because I like to think about silence in the moment, but it expands as well. So sometimes we're talking about a minimal injection of silence, maybe three to five seconds in the middle of an actual conversation. But sometimes silence is how long does it take us to respond to a message? How long does it take us to initiate a conversation? And we can play around with silence in different ways when we can broaden our perspective on what silence actually, actually is. But let's focus on in person or real time communication, whether in person or virtual. What I want to focus on is utilizing silence in order to give space for deeper thought. And that's either for you personally or for the other side. And so I remember when I was driving or learning how to drive, one of the lessons my dad taught me was that I will make far more mistakes by going too fast than by going too slow. And that's helped me to be a safer driver and also a more responsible communicator as well. So if I don't immediately know the answer, I'm not going to force myself to just jump in and say something wrong. I'm going to credit them for asking a good question. I'm going to lean back and I'm going to slow down. I'm going to get the right answer. And sometimes I might not have the right answer at that moment. So for me, when I was practicing law, if somebody asked me a really deep question about the law, let me, and I'll say, you know what, give me one second, let me think through this, because that's a good question. I'll think about case law, precedent or something like that. But if I don't know, I feel no harm is dealt to me if I just say I don't Know, hey, that's a great question. Let me get back to you. Right? So I'm going to give myself the time to get the right answer, but I'm also going to give the other person that courtesy for their own benefit, but also for me as well, because I persuade more with questions. Usually what I found in difficult conversations is that I'm going to make more progress not by the things that I say, but by the questions that I ask. But I can undermine the efficacy of my questions by simply not giving the question time to work. You know, so when you ask a good question, the person's going to have to consider a number of different things. It's not often that they can get the answer really quickly, but it is. It does occur quite often when we get impatient, we feel tension or discomfort, and then we undermine our question by clarifying the question unnecessarily or asking a different question. And now we've let them off the hook. And so, for instance, this works well when you think about personality dynamics. An extrovert will answer a question faster than an introvert because an introvert processes a little bit slower but deeper. It takes a little bit of time. So this works really well when you're talking to introverts, but it also works well when you're getting somebody to change their mind, because what might be happening is that they were thinking that the way that they were approaching this or thinking about this was the only way to approach it or think about it. And now you've introduced something with a question that's forcing them to consider something else. I want to give them the time to adjust and think through what that adjustment means practically for them. Right. So sometimes if I'm talking to an introvert, it might be three to five seconds. But the longest I've waited in a Tough conversation was 43 seconds. 43 seconds, painful seconds. And there's no. Here's the thing, Carly. There's no getting around the fact, like, I wasn't enjoying myself, I wasn't having a good time waiting. But sometimes what you're feeling is the inescapable pain of progress. There's no way that I know of to make that silence feel good. But it was critical because I was serving as the mediator at that time. And I presented some evidence that they hadn't seen before. And they thought that they were the good guy retaliating against the. The bad guy. But what happened was they misunderstood the situation and retaliated against nothing, which means that they were the aggressor. And so that's a lot to handle in the middle of a mediation when you think you are fighting for good and retaliating, when the other side is like you're a bully. Why are you being mean to me? I didn't do anything wrong. Right. But that was the catalyst for change in that conversation. If I would have jumped in beforehand, then they might not have gotten to that place where they could have absorbed the fact that they needed to change. So I think when you understand the psychology and you understand the strategic benefit of silence, it helps you to trust the process, even if you don't particularly feel good in that process. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

Yeah, I think it's an interesting point about the potential time difference between introverts and extroverts. Selfishly, because when I'm thinking about the groups that I'm working with, one of the questions that I ask them when we first start working together is how would you identify yourself? Would you say that you're an introvert or an extrovert? Typically, it's just so that I know who's in the room. Like, it's a level of diversity that I like to be intentional about, but more so in how we make sure that we're amplifying different strengths. Because just because someone's an introvert or maybe they process a little bit differently, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't bring just as much to the table. Whereas I think silence in this context and how the question was asked to me was if somebody thinks they have an upper hand in a negotiation. Right. And you know something that they don't. To your point, there's a new piece of information that is the catalyst that can completely change this conversation. You have to manage your emotions in that circumstance and not immediately put all your cards on the table and you have the pause because you're actually in the position of power and how you negotiate that next step or how you get into that next part of the negotiation. So it's interesting to think about 43 seconds of just. Just sitting there knowing that you have that piece of information and really can't do anything with it just yet. So, you know, one of. One of the things that we've talked about in our Young Alumni Academy sessions, especially as it relates to conflict resolution and negotiation, is emotional regulation for everyone in the room, being able to regulate yourself and regulate the emotions of the other person so that you're getting the best result at the end. But one of the things that I've been asked also is, like, what is the quickest way to find common ground with the other party when it seems like there isn't any? Like, where do you restart? Or do you walk away and reconvene? Like, what's the advice when it doesn't seem like there's a place for you to land?

One of my favorite things to say is let's take a step back. And when I say that, is my goal is to take a step back to a place where we were on the same page. Because at some point.

Yeah.

And now we're not. And so it's just kind of like a check. Hey. So it sounds like we're on the same page about this and this. Am I. Am I right on that? Okay. And it sounds like we're on the same page about this. Right? Okay. Yes. Now, it seems like we differ in perspective on this point. Am I right there? So essentially what I'm doing is I'm saying, hey, there was at some point where we were on the same page. Right. And I think a lot of times we get caught up in the term common ground, But I prefer the term common understanding because common ground implies agreement. To a lot of people, and some conversations, you don't have any agreement at all. So we say, how do we start off with no common ground? A lot of times you don't have it. So I want to get to a point of common understanding. We can at least agree to these subsets of facts or happenings or this way of describing the scenario. We're on the same page here. We have a common understanding here. Now let's proceed and figure out how we can get a common understanding going forward. And here's the thing, Carly. When you shift from wanting or feeling like you need to find common ground to just accepting common understanding, you can get to that a lot easier. Because with common understanding, my goal is to understand your perspective, even if I don't agree with it, and then communicate my perspective to you, even if you don't agree with it, because at least at that point, we have something productive that we can build on. There's a little bit of momentum that is moving us in the right direction. So what I want to do is if I'm getting to a place where it seems like we are just not at all on, on the same page at all, I just say, hey, let's slow it down. Let's take a step back and get back to a place where we're on the same page. And now we can start to build a little bit of positive momentum from there.

I think that that's a really interesting way of looking at it. Common understanding versus common common ground. Often, I think, especially for students or people who are just starting to get out into the adult world, you've had potentially four years at your undergraduate career where they ask you name hometown, major, right. Your immediate intro into a conversation is talking about this one thing that could potentially create a common ground with someone. So when you're faced with a challenging conversation or you're faced with maybe your first formal negotiation, I'll say, and you're trying to find common ground and you can't use those same couple of facts about yourself. Often, you know, for me personally, it's finding humor or levity in a conversation. So when you slow things down, it's trying to find that. But if you were to give advice, I suppose, to someone who's newer to formal negotiation or resolving these challenging conflicts and say, like a work environment, if they were to be starting this conversation that ultimately ends up in that heated trying to find common understanding standpoint, how do you start those conversations yourself? How do you introduce yourself and your role in the conversation or your expectation? Like, what's your warmup introduction into it?

Yeah. Well, I think first of all, sometimes we jump into the conversation way too soon. And I really think we need to appreciate the psychology and science behind momentum, even if we don't understand the, like, the nuances behind the psychology, because it's still pretty nebulous. We felt momentum like we could watch a game and we could say, you know, this team's got momentum. This team doesn't. We don't. We don't might not understand why, but we know that momentum is going in one direction versus another. And what I would challenge people to do is find some way to find some positive momentum. So let's say the meeting starts at 3:00pm okay, great. In my mind, the negotiation doesn't start until after at least 3:05. Right. And so for instance, we will find some point of commonality eventually, right? Because we might not have the same alma mater or go to the same school, but we're probably working for the same organization or some kind of common goal, right? Or even just creating a connection. It's like, okay, here we are in this virtual context. I can see some things in the background. I see the, like Thanos's hand. That's a good conversation starter, right? I see a helmet, I see a crib, right? So there are things that we can start off with in order to get some positive momentum. And my goal is to ethically trigger biases. And so we think about bias in the negative context so much, but we don't think about positive biases and how we can ethically use it to our favor. So I think about affinity bias. So you are like me, so I like you. So it's about similarity, right? And so I'm going to try to learn more about the person in this little short five minute frame and then I'm going to figure out what are the commonalities, what do we have in common? And then when it comes to like reading people and their body language, we can see when people are more comfortable, but also understand psychologically where people place things in their view. Again, in a virtual environment, there are certain things that are in front of me that nobody can see that are mean something to me. But if I put something behind me, it's because I want that to be seen. It is some kind of state of identity, right? So I'm going to pick one of those things that I see in the background and I'm going to try to create a connection. So you see me not as the other side in a negotiation, but you see me as somewhat like you. And that will help me to generate a little bit of positive momentum because then I could just really flow into it really nicely after I find that point of commonality and say, hey, listen, ultimately we're on the same team, we're working for the same, the same goal in general. And my goal is to figure out how we can work together to get there, because I think we can work better together than apart something really simple like that. And then that can help us to get a positive flow into that conversation.

No, I think that's a great, more mature or adult way, I suppose, of name, major, hometown, to be able to find those areas of commonality. So the remaining questions that I have for you are kind of segmented. Segmented, excuse me, into either personal life, sort of negotiation versus professional Life. So we'll start with personal meaning. You're having a negotiation or a challenging conversation with somebody that you know. Like whether it's a romantic relationship, a friendship, or just navigating relationships with peers. We were talking earlier about introvert versus extrovertedness. So when we're thinking about the role that self awareness plays in a negotiation, or how people process information differently and that more specifically with managing emotions, right? So if somebody gets information that they do or don't agree with, either they're going to react in an emotional way or they're going to be able to step back and say, okay, I'm going to think about this for a second before I respond. Advice for reading the room. If it seems like that person doesn't process or move through that conflict negotiation the same way that you would or the same way that you thought it was going to go, oftentimes people aren't going into a challenging conversation blind. Like these conversations typically don't just find us. Right? You've rehearsed it in your head a million times. You've thought about, oh, when I see this person, I need to talk about this, or I scheduled this meeting so I can talk to this person about X sort of topic. And you think about a million different ways that the other party is going to approach that same conversation, and then they don't respond that way. So reading the room and how that's a little bit different with a known party. So say the personal sort of environment versus a professional one or somebody that you haven't had this kind of a conversation with before.

When it comes to emotion management, the framework we're going to use is compassionate curiosity. So this is a framework we created that helps you to manage your own emotions for internal negotiations with yourself to get clarity and get to a point of calm. And then compassionate curiosity also helps you to manage emotions and deal with the conflict with other people as well. So we'll show how it works internally and externally. So before this big conversation, we are going to probably feel some things. As soon as we feel that spark, we'll use compassionate curiosity. Again, three steps. Step one is acknowledge and validating emotions. Step two is getting curious with compassion. Step three is joint problem solving. So internally this is what it would look like. So I'm going to list off the emotions that I feel and actually, Carly, we could have a game, a little game here.

Okay.

It could be you prepping for the conversation. I'll be your internal voice and you just answer the questions. So what are you feeling? List all of the emotions you're feeling going into this meeting.

Going into this meeting. Hesitant would be one, right? Oh, do I have to do this now? I don't have time for this. Oh, maybe I'm not my best self to show up for this conversation. It could be defensive, right? Going into a challenging conversation already feeling like you've been backed into a. A corner or you were in the wrong and that you're going to have to apologize. And lastly, being almost apologetic or I guess empathy would be the other sort of emotion or emotional feeling would be I'm going into this challenging conversation with the understanding that I want to understand the emotional feelings of this other party and how this impacted them. Now, that's not obviously applicable to you and I having this conversation. This isn't a hypothetical, Right?

Thank you for clarifying. That's good. Yes, that's perfect. And so that's all we want to do for step one. List everything that we're feeling. And then this could take more time for step two. But for step two, what we're going to do is we're just going to ask ourselves, why are we feeling this way until we get a better understanding? So let's just pick defensive. For example, so what about this situation is making you feel defensive?

Making a decision without having the full understanding of the downstream impacts? Right. So then you're feeling defensive because you feel like you have to answer for or be accountable for your actions, regardless of how right or wrong you may now feel that they were.

Yep, perfect. Great example. And then what we would do is we would just keep asking why? Well, why does that make you feel defensive? And keep going until we get a full understanding. Now, here's the thing. As we go through this, labeling our emotions triggers the part of the brain that helps us to think clearly, but also calms us down at the same time. So that's why psychologically this works. So we're going to do this until we get a better understanding for ourselves, which gives us clarity and gets our emotions to a point where they're more manageable. Then with step three, with using joint problem solving, we're figuring out what would help us feel better emotionally, but then what we should actually do in the moment. So it helps us to build out an actionable strategy for the conversation. Now, you could see how you could sit down and take 30 minutes to do this, but then you could also see is if I have like 60 seconds, I could just sit back and list my emotions really quickly, understand why I'm feeling that, and then come up with some kind of game plan very quickly. Right? So that's how you can do it before. We also want to list our triggers, like what are the things that the person could do or say during the conversation that could trigger me? So I, I have a game plan for how to handle that. And then during the conversation we're going to flow through it using compassionate curiosity. So as soon as I recognize that there's an emotion on the other side, I'm going to slow down, I'm going to pause and try my best to label it in a respectful way. Like so if we're having a conversation, I might say something like, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like this whole situation was really frustrating to you. Am I close on that? And then the person will explain, they'll vent if they're wrong, you'll, they'll correct you. You just use the right label that they provided. And then you do that until they start to calm down. You manage the temperature of the room so it gets to an emotionally manageable place. Then you ask open ended questions and then you work with the other side to work through it. Now here's the thing. When it comes to understanding people and it comes to the power of small talk, the more you know the person, the better you will be when it comes to reading their body language. So you remember when we were talking about getting that common understanding at the beginning and trying to find that pull point of commonality. There's another added benefit there too. I'm understanding what your body language looks at at baseline. So when you're just chill talking about your Thanos hand in the background, you're not all uptight and, and everything like that. So I can see what your body looks like when you're relaxed. Now I'm going to pay attention to deviations from that because maybe when you're talking about Thanos's hand, you were really engaged, you were leaning forward and you were more expressive with your hands. But then when I said this one thing, this one idea, I saw you squint, your eyes lean back and then you kind of made yourself smaller. Oh, that's, that's different. I don't know what that means, but it means something. So I'm going to pause and ask a question on that. So one of the things when it comes to that self awareness is being able to pay attention to what when something has changed. You know, I don't know if it's a thought that you had, I don't know if it's an emotion that you had. But I do know that I'm curious and I want to learn more. So a lot of times I might have a lot that I want to say, but I see that change and I say, oh, I'm changing strategies right now. There was a big significant body language shift when I said that one thing. I need to know what that means so I can adjust. So that's how we sprinkle in body language, curiosity and emotion management into a conversation like this.

No, I, I think that that makes perfect sense. The, the nuance sort of follow up question that I've gotten then is okay for somebody who maybe doesn't have the same formal training and negotiation tactics. Right? Or maybe they just have a baseline of four Cs or Ps or you know, how to get the winning result in 10 steps kind of approach. The feeling of just the thought and understanding of what negotiation is can already feel icky to people. So it's especially in personal life, like romantic relationships, friendships, family dynamics. How do you navigate that line in feeling like you're manipulating somebody versus persuading someone or truly negotiating successfully? When you're thinking about managing emotions, that ick is very real, for sure.

And when I think about manipulation versus persuasion, it all comes down to intent, you know, because this is a tool, like a knife is a tool and we could use that to eat. And then other people use knives for other reasons. And it's just depends on the mindset and intention of the person who's using the tool. And so for me, when it comes to the, the conversation of whether it's a business conversation or a work hunt conversation, the only thing that differs isn't really the, the approach or the framework because I still use compassionate curiosity in each of them. It just depends on the, the things that would change is I would deal with the, the dial of assertiveness. There's a level of assertiveness that I will bring to a business conversation that shouldn't be brought home. I found that when Whitney says I am sounding like a lawyer, it is not a compliment. Put that aside. Right. So I'll increase the level of vulnerability and empathy and then decrease the level of like business assertiveness. Right. We're not going to completely get rid of assertiveness, but we're going to recognize that it'll sound different at home. Your tone has to change. It's kind of like code switching when we're thinking about it through the lens of cultural intelligence. If you're a student, the way that you talk to a professor is going to be different from the way that you talk to your friends. If you're in business, the way that you talk to your boss is different from the way that you talk to a subordinate, which is different from the way that you talk to your partner at home. There are different versions of ourselves, but each of them needs to have a version of self advocacy that is conversationally and culturally appropriate for the circumstances. Right? So for me, I'm very vulnerable when it's at home or when it's a personal relationship. So I show all my cards because manipulation in a lot of cases is holding back vital information that a person needs in order to make a good decision for themselves. And so I'll go into this conversation and just say, hey, Carly, here, here's. Here's the thing. I recognize that we had a tough situation in the past and I'm going to describe that in non judgmental objective terms. And I really care about you. We've been friends for a really long time and I want to see what we can do to work together to figure this out so we can keep going forward. Right, that's it. I'm just going to be very transparent. And if there's something that I say that's going to sound harsh, I'll just say, hey, listen, I want you to know what's coming next is coming from the heart. And I'm saying this because I believe it's something that you need to know in order to understand me better. And it's this. So if there's anything that I think might come off a little bit like feel like dropping the hammer, I'm going to give a disclaimer. I'm going to explain what's coming and why. Because it's not like, hey, I'm trying to hurt your feelings by saying this one thing. That's what a lot of times in a, in a very emotional context, people might be more likely to interpret things negatively. So I want to make sure that I am framing everything through consistently collaborative terms in order to make sure that what people hear is what I actually said.

I think that that's an important point. It's something that I've recognized even within my newer team that I've joined. Within the Alumni association, our associate vice president often says, clear is kind. So when you're giving directives or when you're asking for feedback, it's never with the intention of I want to hurt your feelings or I want to provide something that is going to make you think that I don't Appreciate you or I don't recognize how hard you're working. It's just clear as kind. If I can be as surgical as possible and give you the feedback that you're looking for, then that's the kindest thing that I can do for you. And the same applies to any negotiation, I think. So switching gears to more of a professional sort of environment. Obviously, for young alumni or students that are about to graduate and enter the workforce, the main sort of thing that they're going to need to negotiate or have the skills to do is when they're talking about either their work environment. So work life balance, talking about a flexible work agreement, especially when so many people are having to return to office and then salary and benefits. So when you have someone who has not had to have these kinds of conversations before and they're going into a room with a hiring manager or someone who has definitely done this before, what are a few pieces of advice or steps that you would give them when they're entering those first negotiations?

Well, the first piece of advice is negotiate, because that's what most people do. Just don't do it. That's the first thing. And then just help people to recognize that it can be scary and that's okay. And the other side is expecting you to negotiate because a lot of times, especially with these, if you're negotiating from outside of the organization to inside of the organization, they build in negotiation wiggle room because they're expecting it. And if you don't advocate for yourself, then you're giving them an unexpected and unearned gift. The other thing too is depending on the role that you're in, that negotiation might be part of the application. Right? In a sense, because if I'm hiring somebody who's going to be advocating for my organization, but then they're not willing to advocate for my. For themselves, then I'm going to question their advocacy skills. That might be a test as well. And people don't recognize that there have been situations where people have not. I can't think of one where they've lost it because usually if somebody comes to me, they've already. They're negotiating. So they don't run into this. But I've heard other situations where somebody was like, yeah, I lost a lot of respect for my employer because I did not advocate for myself. Like, so that's something that's really important to pay attention to and it doesn't need to be difficult. I think a lot of times, or let me say complex or complicated, the more we can simplify this the better. And sometimes the negotiation simply looks like this. So they email you and say, congratulations, we have your offer. This is what we're offering you. And you could say something as simple as this, Hey, I appreciate the offer, thank you very much. I'm considering a lot of other opportunities and finances are going to be important to me. So. So one of the things that I'd like to ask you is what flexibility do you have in your offer? That's it. So. But there's a lot of power in this question. Number one, it's open ended, so they can't just say yes or no. It requires a little bit of elaboration. Number two, it assumes that there is flexibility, so it makes it more likely for them to answer in that type of way. And if they, and number three, if they say anything other than there absolutely is no flexibility, then I know there's flexibility and I'm going to go get that. Right. That's it. And one thing that I've recognized and I see this especially when it comes to maybe people of color or women in negotiation, a lot of times there is a bit of survivorship, guilt that happens where it's like, I've seen so many people who look like me, who have my experience, who are completely shut out and they don't get this opportunity. I need to take this opportunity for myself. I'm grateful for this. And it would be almost disrespectful for the other people for me to not just get this opportunity but get from, get more when so many other people like me don't have as much Right. And so I've been there. So this is where I'm coming from. And here's the thing. Sometimes we, it comes down to a lack of a feeling of whether or not we deserve this. Do I deserve this? Because so many other people don't have. And so I say, well, if I'm coaching somebody who has that same struggle, I say, okay, are you interested in supporting your community or people who look like you, who have these same challenges? And they're like, oh, absolutely, that's very important to me. And I said, would it be easier for you to do that with more money or less money? They're like, oh, said, hey, listen, if you feel, if you feel really bad about negotiating for an extra $10,000 a year, just go and negotiate for that extra $10,000 a year and give it away. If that's, if that's the problem, give it away now. Now you're helping people and helping yourself. But I Think there's a lot of times we have to dig deeply within ourselves to understand what's really holding us back. Because if you just focus on saying to yourself, it's because I don't know what to say, it's because I don't know the tactics, it's because I don't know the strategy, then you're going to solve for the wrong problem. You're going to get all of this great advice and you're never going to use it. And then you're going to blame yourself and not understand why. And so we need to make sure that we're overcoming those self limiting beliefs to make sure that we feel worthy of what it is that we're actually negotiating for.

Yeah, I think the, the hardest part or the easiest part pitfall in any sort of interview is the, okay, so do you have any questions for me? And then you're just sitting there like I have sold myself for the last 15 to 30 minutes. What questions do I have for you? But that's really the prime opportunity to maybe start that negotiation conversation, if you haven't already, is to really advocate for yourself. Talk about what your values are. Right. And what it is that you're looking for out of this opportunity or a different one right now. So when you think about people who are trying to take the next step, so they've been in a certain job opportunity for a while, probably post grad, and now I want to stay with this company, I feel like it aligns with my values. I've been compensated fairly thus far, but now I think I need a promotion or a raise. Especially when we're in some sort of tricky times as far as job market or the economy being what it is. What do you, what advice do you give to people who are going into a room with their boss or manager and having that sort of conversation. What do they bring to the table? What do you suggest that they prepare for before they go into that negotiation?

Well, let me first identify one big mistake that people make. And the biggest mistake is that they start this process way too late. You know, they, they start the negotiation at the point where they need the money or when they want to, right? And it's like we haven't talked in months. The first thing he's going to say to me is just ask for more money. How about a hello? You know, and so what I would suggest is if you are negotiating within an organization, trying to set up your next move, you need to start that three to six months in advance. You need to start having These conversations and start playing chess, not checkers. So what does the first move look like? It's going to be a meeting that you initiate, asking not only about what it is like your manager thinks about your performance, but also what you could do to be better. And the great question you can ask is, hypothetically, when you consider a high performer in this role, what does that person look like? Okay, and what's the difference between me and that person? Person right now. Okay, cool. I want that objectively, right? I'm going to get that information and I want to get very clear, achievable metrics that are detailed. So we could actually say unequivocally, this is where I was versus this is where I am now. I want to be have it as data oriented and unbiased as possible. So after that conversation, I'm going to send them a summary email to just put my like plant the flag in the ground and just say, hey, listen, I really enjoyed this conversation. You said this and I need to work on that. I really appreciate that. If I missed anything, let me know and then I'm going to get back to work.

Right.

And so you have that set right now. Now there is no denying that conversation occurred. And this is what happened. Now later in a few months, once you have rectified all of those challenges, you say, hey, listen, I set up another meeting. By the way, you gave me this advice. You told me to do this, you told me to work on this. I have information and proof that shows that I did those things. Thank you very much. This is what you said a high performer looks like. Now, officially, I'm a high performer.

It's me. Yes.

And so then at that I'm going to set, at that meeting, I'm going to say, hey, my goal is to stay at this company long term and I want to continue to add value. And I think there are other things that I can do to add value. Hypothetically, what would it take for me to be to, to get a promotion that looks like this, right? And then they kind of, they, they let you know, then I'm going to work on that. And then now, today, I've already had a number of meetings coming in, and now it's more of an if then proposition than a negotiation. Because six months ago you said, I need. This is the difference between me and a high performer. I made myself a high performer. Then you said, if we could get these other things done, it'll put me in a position to be promotion material. Okay, so now here we are. Now you're in a much, much, much better position and even think about it. Because when I explain this strategy to people, a lot of times one of the things that they feel is a lot calmer and a lot more confident. Because it feels like you're trying to accomplish so much in one meeting and you're like, it doesn't feel like it's possible for me to negotiate for everything that I want in this one meeting. You might feel that way because it's actually not possible to negotiate all of.

To negotiate that one meeting.

So just break it up over a number of meetings and you make your job so, so much easier when it's actually time to negotiate.

I, I think that that's great feedback. It's one of those things similar to not starting a negotiation right away, right? Giving it five minutes to breathe before you get into it. Because oftentimes you think about that hesitation at the starting line for a track sort of event. It's like, oh, you anticipate too much and get right into it. And that doesn't necessarily set you up for success. So, last question, just being mindful of time here. So when you think about whether it's a negotiation for something positive and exciting like a promotion or a raise, or whether it's a negotiation that didn't go so well, or you don't feel like you actually accomplished the highest value for everyone that was involved, what does the debrief look like? The follow up sort of question is whether it's something exciting and positive like a promotion or a raise. Let's say, theoretically, you do ultimately end up getting that promotion or raise because you've shown yourself to be a high achiever and you've accomplished the goals that your superiors are looking for. Or it's a situation where you've been in a negotiation that hasn't gone well, a challenging conversation that you don't feel like you found a common understanding or maximized value for both parties that were participating. How does that debrief look different? Like, what does that debrief process look like? Or follow up and next steps?

Yeah, great question. So let's talk about if it goes well. One of the things we want to make sure we're doing is aligning on those next steps. Because sometimes you end up with an agreement and it's like, hey, everything went well and then nothing happens because we didn't talk about what we're going to actually do. So negotiating the execution, that's part of it because most likely you're probably going to find out that you had different perspectives on who was going to do what at by what time. So a lot of times we celebrate way too soon in these negotiations, and there's still some things that need to be ironed out. Now on the other side, if it's a negotiation that hasn't gone very well. And just remember, we're not always going to agree. I mean, think about it from the, like, the. The romantic side, you know, both of us, we're both married, we don't agree on everything with our spouses as such is the nature of relationships, right? And one of the things that I want us to focus on is repair attempts. So a lot of times we have these conversations. It might not go very well, but one of the things that we can do that really separates good relationships from bad relationships is meaningfully trying to repair the relationship after a tough conversation. This is from the research of John Gottman, a great marriage researcher. And so it could be something as simple as saying, hey, you know, we had a tough conversation, but, you know, I still love you. Want to grab dinner? Something like that. Or, you know, it's something that they. They. That is very annoying that they have to do. It's like, hey, just want to let you know I took care of that little annoying thing, right? Oh, I got gas for Whitney, something like that, to show that I still love her. But we also have to make sure that this does not turn into unintentional gaslighting where it's like, we have this really tough conversation, and now I'm just going to pretend like everything's okay. That is not what I'm suggesting that we do. I think it's good to just have a conversation and just do a quick check in. That's all it needs to be. It doesn't need to be like anything bigger than that. Just like, hey, I know we had a tough conversation. I want to check in and see how you're doing. Want to make sure we're okay, right? And then you just flow. Your goal in that conversation isn't to push toward any very clear, rigid objective. Your goal is to just show that I care about you enough to pay you the respect of listening. And so we're just going to listen and make sure that the person feels heard and understood. And if there's something else that you wanted to say, you can say that too. But a lot of times we are afraid of these conversations because we're like, I don't necessarily know what the goal is. Sometimes the goal is just connection. And that's enough, you know, But I think it's really important whether the negotiation goes well or whether it goes poorly to have some kind of check in just to make sure that the relationship or the agreement, they're still in the right place.

I think that all of this is really valuable insight for those that are asking these questions, so I appreciate all of the answers and thoughtfulness behind it.

Awesome. Carly, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.