Top Tips: Storytelling Highlight Reel [Part 2]

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview number one. Why are stories so powerful?

Well, because they're primal, because they're fundamental. I think, you know, we have been telling stories culturally, we've been telling stories from the very beginning of our culture. But in your life, in my life, in the lives of all of your audience members, stories are a fundamental way that they have learned about the subjects of the world, but also about themselves. The way we learn who we are, the way we identify the things that are important to us, are often through the stories about ourselves that we embrace.

This is fantastic. And you're absolutely right. And I like the word you used to primal, because I think that's a perfect description. And we're really wired for story. Our brains are wired to get data and understand data and process the world through story. And so it's, you see, a lot of times, especially in the business world, we're focusing on numbers, we're focusing on analytics, and of course those things can be very persuasive, but the reality is they don't often hit home as powerfully as a well told story can.

And so when we think about storytelling in the business world, when it comes to Sales and negotiation. What does that look like to you?

To me, I see it as cinematic storytelling. I see it as you take your first step to connect emotionally with your audience. And when you've properly connected, they will dig out the data and reinforcement that your next slides, your logical slides are coming in to reinforce it. Much like when we spoke right here and I said, you ever hunt and peck and gone through the presentations or whatever to find your slide? And you said, God, I was having a moment. I was connecting with you emotionally. Once you were connected emotionally, you're like, gosh, God, I can reuse slides. Aren't there numbers on that? The top salespeople. You start going through it because you reinforce what you've already bought yourself into because you emotionally connected with it. You can use this analogy in cinema. You can watch movies and you'll see that they. Almost every great movie grabs you emotionally right out the chute. There's a big change in life. Someone. Someone dies, someone has a divorce, someone moves away, some grand change happens, and then the story starts. That should be the way you look at presentations. If you've got a slide library you're now looking at, each presentation's a story, every slide's a scene. When every slide's a scene, you can look at that scene and go, I want people to feel emotionally sad about the leaky pipe on the slide. I made that up. I'm just saying. And then you know where you're bringing your audience. And if you start giving that focus to each slide in your library, everyone out in the field is pulling from these slides. They start driving to the same area, all the messaging to the same horizon. You can shuffle up the slides into different, different stories, but it tells the same message. I'll give an example, like, who is it? Quentin Tarantino? We've seen Pulp Fiction, right? It almost. It starts in the middle, and then in the middle, you're at the beginning, and then at the end, you seem to loop around back to the beginning, and you're back to the middle. And then at the end, you finally get to the start, right? He's got all these scenes, but it's almost like he took those scenes. If you shuffled them and put them into a regular chronological order, would it be the same story? It would have the same feel. It might not go the same route, but you're going to the same horizon. If your slides are a scene and all your slides, remember a video is just another slide. Drag that in. I want to see the next video play. These are all real powerful things.

Can you take us a little bit deeper into the mechanics of what makes a good story work? Why is it so effective?

Oh, because stories demonstrate any kind of point you want to make in a way that really draws people in. So say, for instance, really good stories are usually a chronological order. It's this, and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And there's a logic to it with a mixture of emotion. It's very action oriented, as opposed to saying, you know, I was brave. You tell the story about how you jumped off of a cliff, you know, and what you did when you jumped off the cliff. That's much more demonstrative and illustrates who you're being as opposed to just saying, I'm brave. So stories are persuasive because as you're listening to someone telling you a very good story, you're drawn into the action. You're drawn into the moment in time that they're talking about. And you also have the extra sensory of when you're hearing somebody tell a story. You then conjure up in your own mind what the scene is. So you're in this way, you're involved in the story in this very personal way. So even though the story you're hearing is someone else's experience, you are drawn in yourself. Because now you're allowed to figure out for yourself the colors and the smells and the scene, and it becomes almost your story. Almost, you're involved in that moment, and so you gain a sense of empathy for the subject itself. You're in it yourself. You're engaged. Again, well told. You're invested in it being okay. So parts of a really good story would be, as I said earlier, would be, it has this chronological order, this logic to it. And then this happened. And then this happened. And action oriented. He said this, I said that. She said, no, I said, yes. Good storytelling is using very simple words. I know some of the biggest mistakes people make in storytelling is they might get too jargony. And so the listener might think in terms of, well, what does that mean? Oh, for instance, I was coaching somebody the other day and she was telling a story about something that happened in the second grade. And she said, well, I was in art class and I made this diorama. And this kid took my bunnies from my diorama. Now, listening to her, I'm going, what the hell's a diorama? Like, I'm going through my head going, wait, what's that? And so I'm not listening to her anymore because I'm Like a diorama. Maybe I should Google it. Now I'm lost. And so then she goes, oh, the diorama is one of those. Remember that art project you had made a shoebox and used to paint the background of the shoebox? And then you used to have, like, your action figures in the shoebox and the back of the shoebox. And I was like, oh, okay, I did that when I was a kid, but I didn't know it was called a diorama. That took me out of the story. So when coaching her, I said, just say art project. People don't need to know it was a diorama because that's not the story. So being able to make sure you know who you're talking to in your audience and using words that they can relate to. And another mistake people sometimes make is, you know, you have to know your audience, right? Who you're talking to. So if you bring in too many characters without names or even if they do have names, they have too many characters and people aren't aware of who these people are you're talking about. People get lost, right? They'll be like, oh, did Mark say that? Or did John say that? Oh, okay, Peter said that. Okay, when did Peter come into this? So then you get bogged down in the who said what? Said who. Because people couldn't figure out, you know, who to follow. So if you're telling a story with a certain audience, you want to make sure you know where your audience is and to make sure that your story will land with them. But those are some of the big mistakes that people make. And I also, I guess also we talked about earlier, I said that people get caught up in saying, oh, was it a Tuesday or Wednesday this happened? Huh? Was it 2 o' clock or 4 o'? Clock? Okay, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. Keep it going, keep it going. The other mistake people make, which cracks me up, is when they're so busy going, oh, my God, this story was so funny. I can't wait to tell you.

So.

So I saw this guy. I thought it was so funny. I saw this guy. He was walking down the street. Okay, you're not gonna. And you're like, get to the story. Okay, huge mistake, huge mistake.

I need to.

We need to figure out this wisdom here.

Shakir, how are you? Like, what are the elements of an effective story? I need to know from you.

No, that's a. It's a really good question, and it's interesting that you asked me that question. I think about some of my fraternity brothers on a regular basis because that was a part of my growth. One of my challenges, you know, growing up and even into college, was being able to articulate myself and to have the confidence to really share and to tell a story. And, you know, I was never succinct, right? I would veer off and lose my point and forget what the punchline was and all that good stuff. And so it actually came from being around people who were good at storytelling, Right? This whole notion that iron sharpens iron is a real thing. One of my good brothers, Brian May, is really a master at storytelling. And so it is a skill that can be developed and a skill that can be learned. And I think that's a skill, you know, I learned from him and some of the others, you know, who were in my circle because I watched the impact of effective storytelling, right? I watched the impact of being able to keep people hanging on to your words and keeping people engaged, because it really can make a difference. If you've got some gems to share, if you've got a message to get across, a point to share, and you deliver it in a way that is engaging and intriguing, it really makes a difference. And, I mean, I think about the work that I do in terms of public speaking and lecturing and guest lecturing and things like that. And it's really critical for me, as I prepare for those opportunities, to put together something, you know, one that's going to be meaningful to the people who were there. So I certainly want to touch on something that's local, something that's personal, something that resonates with them. It's also meaningful to engage with the folks who maybe introduce you or folks who went ahead of you, because the reality is, you know, sometimes I'm one of three, four or five people in the ds and everybody has something really good to say, and I like to take what I can quickly and hear that. And that's that piece that you just talked about, that art of listening, right? So if you listen and you take something and share, then people say, oh, you were listening. And it just helps them connect with you even more. Right? And so that was a piece that I was actively trying to do as you were leading into this segment, because some of the challenges, I think, with podcasts, or you're so eager to get your point across, right. That you miss what the hosts are saying, right. Or you miss what the guest is saying sometimes because you're so focused on that. So that goes back to that active listening piece. So I try to pull in what I've heard from other people in that moment. Right. And I think when you're talking about negotiation, you often probably do that as well, where you restate what someone's position was or what someone has expressed. Because that's just the reality is people want to make sure that you heard them. And the best way to show that you've heard them is to share something that they've shared with you. But again, incorporating that into the story process and then incorporating some humor sometimes. Right. I think it's important to bring humor to whatever the circumstances are. It may not be the best circumstances, but it's okay to crack a smile. It's okay to bring that humor to the space. And I have a bit of a dry humor sometimes. So sometimes people miss my jokes. But it's in there, right? It's in there. And I think for me, those are all aspects of storytelling that are critical. Right. And then obviously, that connection piece, we want people to be connected to what I'm talking about. So if I'm sharing a story that someone can't relate to, then that's problematic.

Right.

So I want to make sure. Make sure I know my audience and make sure that I'm connected and make sure that the story I'm telling is relevant to that particular audience. And obviously, as I'm talking with you, this work in this process, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion and that growth and that experience, for me, you know, all these things are relevant to our conversation, and so that's why the story seems polished.

So, Randy, let's get us started with the storytelling triangle. What? Yeah. What is that?

Yeah, the storytelling triangle is kind of a concept that's common in storytelling, but it's really something that we kind of already internalize and do. But talking about it helps us think about it more. And the first thing I want to say is when we talk about storytelling, you know, it's kind of almost become a buzzword that people that this is something we should do, and we should. But the common thing is that people think that means adding an anecdote at the beginning of your speech. It can mean that. But there's so many other things that we can learn from centuries of storytelling being the most effective means of communication since before we had language. So the storytelling triangle, if you think about just a basic triangle, and at the very top point, that is you as the storyteller, the speaker, the negotiator, the messenger, anything you want to be. But we'll just say the storyteller that bottom right corner is the story. That's your message, that's whatever it is that you have to say. Now you have complete control over yourself as the storyteller, as the speaker, and you have pretty good control over your story. The third point on that triangle is the audience. And you have zero control over the audience and how they're going to react to you and how they're going to react to your story. So the whole idea of the storytelling triangle is to try to think of as much information as you know about that audience as possible to tailor and try to meet them as closely as you can if you want your story to resonate.

And so for you, what are some examples of how somebody could use storytelling effectively, maybe as a leader or in the, in the business world?

Well, so within my law practice, you know, one of the things that I've had the good fortune to do over the years is mentor younger litigation associates. And you know, a big part of what a lawyer does is write briefs on legal issues and you submit those to the judge and the judge reads them and makes whatever decision they make. And one of the challenges of that is that, you know, at any given time a court has 600 cases on its docket and the legal briefs all sort of say wherefore the party of the first part, so and so referred to henceforth as so and so does this. And as a result, it is basically the rule that, that. And I think that's a mistake. I think that's a, it's a mistake because the thing that moves people, that allows people to see your frame of reference is the story. And so what I tell all of our associates when I do mentor them is forget that party of the first part, formal legalese, have an introduction that reads like a novel, have it start with a main character and the things that happen to that main character and some tension and some proposed resolution. And if you do that in a well crafted introduction, you will have them interested in what happens next when you have to necessarily get to all the party of the first part, statutory stuff that happens thereafter.

If you are working with one of these people who's about to tell a story. Well, first of all, let's just talk about the fact that you're preparing. Because when I listen to the Moth Radio hour, they don't sound rehearsed, it's their story and it just sounds flawless. But what it sounds like after hearing this, it seems like it takes a lot of time to get the story to be that crisp. Is that right?

Correct. Correct. So I, as I said earlier, like I story coach for in the community outreach program. So those are the folks who are from nonprofit organizations who are using storytelling as empowering tools. Right. For their own empowerment, per se. So sometimes they end up on the radio, but most don't. It's more about this empowering community and learning how to own people's stories. And so telling stories or coaching stories does take time. We try to be. I guess I should talk from a personal standpoint because I think all the story coaches kind of have a different approach. For me, when I'm working with someone, I'm as committed as I possibly can to help somebody tell the story that they want to tell and tell it in a way that. That they feel empowered and that they want to tell you the story. Because one of the issues around getting up to the mic, because I don't know if you know this, but with the moth, it's about getting up at the mic, no note, and telling your story. And on the radio, a lot of times those are from the mock slams, which are the competitions. So you can just imagine whether it's a mock slam or it's just a showcase at the end of a community outreach program. Going to the mic and telling your story, opening up your heart, and letting somebody in a mic can be absolutely terrifying. So when I work with people, I want them to feel like they're so excited to tell you the story that they can get over their nerves. So that takes some time. When I'm working with people, I start with the story that they want to tell, and then I'm looking for what will give them the most power in telling it. And I'll give you an example. I was working with a woman who wanted to tell the story of her time in a psych ward. She really felt like this is what she wanted to talk about. But as she was telling me the story, she was very emotional. Very emotional and in tears a lot of the times. And we have a saying at the moth that says, if you're going to tell a story, tell a story from a scar, not a wound. Meaning if you're going to tell a story from your life, make sure you have some perspective on it and you have a little bit of detached, some detachment from it. So you can tell it kind of from not so emotionally charged position. Right. So I was kind of concerned in working with her because I'm thinking, okay, she's crying a lot. I don't know if she, you know, we can do this. But she was really committed to telling the story. So I thought, okay, let me figure out how to get her to feel better about the story. But she talked about how what got her into the psych ward was she was coming out of a really abusive, emotionally abusive relationship. And she had told the guy if he had left her, she would kill herself. And she told her therapist that. This is what she told the boyfriend, if you leave me, I'm going to kill myself. And he left anyway. Now, in this world, when you say that to your therapist, your therapist is going to commit you, which is what the therapist did. That's how she got into the psych ward. She ended up in the psych ward and staying there for three or four days. And then she ended up meeting so many great people that helped her refocus and realized, you know, I always said, I want to be a journalist. Like, I was on this trajectory to be a journalist and write for the New York Times, and that's what I'm going to do. So she kind of changed what she was thinking about and started talking about her plans to the psychiatrist in the psychiatric ward. And that change of language got her out of the psych ward. They let her go because they realized she was no longer a danger to herself. And actually, she ended up two years later writing for the New York Times, as a matter of fact.

Wow.

So, yes, it is amazing. So as she was telling the story, I go, well, can I just put this out there for you to consider? Do you realize that even though being in a psych ward is not, you know, a party, that you actually had control of the whole situation? You said something that got you into the psych ward. I'm going to kill myself if you leave me. And then you said something to get out of the psych ward. I'm going to become a journalist. This is what I said I was going to do, and this is what I wanted to do. And that got you out. You realize your journey was based on something that you said that was you. And she stopped crying, and she said, oh, I never thought about it that way. And she, from that moment on, the story started to morph. It actually got a little funny. She started talking about the interesting characters she met in the psych ward. She threw a couple curse words in there to get, like, kind of sweet with it. You know, she's like, you know, making it kind of like a tough moment in her life that she got through and gunned through. And she got to the mic, and when she told her story, she didn't cry once. And she said to me afterwards, I don't think I'll ever cry about this again, because that was how I got to become a journalist. The psych ward was a prism. It's a prism. It got me crystallized in thinking that this is what I really should be focusing on as a writer, not worrying about some dumb guy who didn't treat me well.

Right?

And that's what I, for me, knew. Like, this is another example of the power of story. When we own our stories, reframe how we see our lives, how powerful it can be. We can go from being victims to heroes within seconds, right. In our own lives. And then also how we represent ourselves to other people. And anyone can relate to that. Everyone can relate to one minute thinking, I really screwed up my life, I ended up in a psych ward, to five minutes later realizing, oh, I got myself into it and I got myself out. Wow, that's the power of storytelling, you know, that's the power of storytelling. And that is an example of kind of why I love what I do whenever I get a chance to work with people on their stories. It's like when they recognize that they are the heroes in their own lives, that when they own their story and they use it to demonstrate their own power and grace and vulnerability and imperfectness, you know, they can connect with people in a way that nothing else can, you know, Brene Brown, one of the renowned social scientists of our time, says, you know, stories are just data with a soul.

I Remember on my LinkedIn recently, I posted that college does a good job of teaching us how to sound smart, but oftentimes we're not good at communicating. We might sound really smart, but we're not communicating effectively.

If we're all talking past each other, what's the point?

Right?

Exactly. Exactly. And really what we need to do is, number one, simplify the communication style that we use. Simplify the words so people can understand it. But again, the beautiful thing about stories is that people want to listen because they're interested. I consider it the. It's like the Trojan horse theory of persuasion. You wrap your message into something that is actually something that they want to hear. They want to bring it past their defenses. And then your little story soldiers go in and persuade once they've gotten past that wall.

I think that's absolutely fair. I think that's a really accurate way of putting.

And so for those people who are struggling to connect emotionally with their product or their service, the mission, vision, value of the company or their clients or prospects, what advice would you give to them to help them overcome that and lean into the emotionality of these presentations.

I would say think of the one slide that you want to move someone emotionally or to connect with them. Don't think of it as emotion, because that might be too out there. But just connect something that you understand. And I understand what meme would represent it. If you made a meme to represent it, what would it be? Remember the best memes, there's huge competition nowadays, and we've seen them out there. Everyone does it. But what it does is it causes a side and a counter side. It's usually something in culture that is a conflict, and they put them on the thing and it causes debate, it causes discussion. It gets that emotion out onto the table. We can think about that meme. What is it? It's the lady yelling and the little cat sitting there in front of the plate of vegetables, and they put a hundred different words there, and you know what I mean? But it represents so many different things. All that does is represent someone very emotional and someone going, a cat doesn't care. So. Right. And they use it for a hundred things. So think about your business. Think about what is that basic thing. That would be a simple meme. Jot it down on a piece of paper, maybe make a little image of it, because that might be the simple thing that causes the discussion, that allows that connection to happen. Once you do that, then you go into my product, it's, you know, 100 times better than this one, and it costs 20 times less. And therefore you make money that that all becomes nuts and bolts after it. But if you don't connect with the understanding, it makes it difficult.

Absolutely.

Someone asked me the other day, they said, if you were at a plumbing conference, how would you do this? I said, well, I would just think about a picture of a pipe under the kitchen sink, and I would turn the sound up real high, and it would go drip, drip, drip, drip. And I would let it drip until everyone's looking at me like, when is this going to stop? And then I would say, you hear that? That is your cash register ringing. How are we going to fix it? And you make the connection between the two, because as a plumber, you're there to make a living. And you know, oh, God, it's leaking. It's usually tearing together. And if you're in an industry where you know your audience, you know what it is, pick something that way. If you're in the tool business, you might be greasing in the garage. If you're A cook. It might be burnt butter. I mean, I'm making all this up. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? If you're. You can name any industry, you know, if you're a lawyer, you could say it's crossing your T's and dotting your eyes while covering your A's, you know, that's what lawyers do, you know, so it's that type of thing. So I like it. To sum that up, think of your own profession. And if you can make a single meme that shows off what's going on in your, you know, that can create conversation. Start with that. Make that your first slide.

One of the most challenging things for people to grasp in any type of communication is the fact that there's a difference between a story and the truth. Right. Because sometimes we get so bought into.

Our story that we don't understand the.

Distinction between our story and our perspective and what really happened.

Exactly. And also, you know, what needs to be self edited and what are the important things that we share about our story. You don't want the most important or meaningful things to get lost because we just tell everything, every, you know, about everything there is, and we're missing those, like, real nuggets of truth that can have meaningful connection.

Absolutely. And, oh, this is really getting deep. This is great because I'm realizing, too, to your point, what needs to be edited in the story. Sometimes the thing that is very important to you in the story isn't as important to them, and it won't be moving to them in the same way that it's moving to you. In fact, sometimes the things that are most important and most pertinent and moving to you and the way that you see the things, that the situation as.

A whole could actually have a negative.

Impact on them in the interaction.

Yeah. I'll give you an example. So I do storytelling performances around Chicago, just, you know, open mics or produced shows, and it's a lot of fun. One of the interesting things about it is feedback from somebody who was like, that was great. But you kind of went off on that tangent about that other person. And I really wanted to hear more about you. And so that's always constructive feedback that for some reason, I edited more of myself out of the story. And I'm so fortunate that there was an audience that connected and wanted to connect with me more as the storyteller and speaker. So that's the other thing, is to make sure that we are maintaining and we're not letting ourselves down in terms of what we share from our story, does that make sense? Again, it's getting very esoteric, I feel, but.

I know. But I'm loving it.

And it's really interesting, too, because now.

Especially when you consider the audience in this, we have to recognize that when we're communicating effectively, we need to think about this in a way where we are not centering ourselves. We need to focus more on the other person and then what they need too. Because a lot of times we tell stories more so for ourselves as a therapeutic endeavor where we're sharing with somebody else because we have that human drive to be understood. But if we're having these conversations for a strategic purpose, or even if we're just trying to get an important point across to somebody else, we have to recognize that sometimes what we want to say in the conversation isn't what the other person needs to hear in order to be persuaded.

It reminds me of a study, as somebody with a psychology degree, I really love nerding out on these studies. They had a study where they had somebody who was very professorial, very smart, intelligent, speaking on a recording. And so he was talking very intelligently about the topic. And so that is what the control group heard. Just a flawless presentation. And then in the other group, what they did was they had the same guy speaking, but then at some point, they had it sound like he spilled something on himself. And then he cleaned himself up and continued speaking. And at the end, they asked, which one did you like more? The people like the guy who spilled stuff on him more. Because the thing is, we don't trust perfection because we know it's not real. And so being able to humanize yourself like you did in that story is incredibly powerful because it makes you more relatable.

And so those are. I guess that's another piece of storytelling that we haven't really fleshed out, but is also important, which is what are the other stories that are going to immediately be in people's minds when you are telling your story and how do you respond to and either embrace those other stories that they may be thinking about or find ways to reject them in a way that's palatable, you know, and you see that look, every. Every movie you go to has Easter eggs. And those Easter eggs are making little inside jokes about other movies, other stories, other cultural narratives, winks and nods to the audience that address what the audience's expectations were coming into the movie. We do the same thing in other.

Parts of our lives.

Why is it that simplicity is so powerful when it comes to conveying this message. Messages.

People understand simplicity. The more complex you get, the more they distrust you. If I can understand something very simple, you get it. You know what I mean? It's. They say, dumb it down. Keep it simple. I find the more complex something gets, the more I want to pull away from it. How about this Steve Jobs. What did he do to the whole stereo system? Used to be two speakers, equalizer, 20 different knobs, a stereo, a record player, two cassette tapes, all that. And he said, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's one circular button on a little device. One button. Anyone before that would be go, no, no, no, no. There's a hundred buttons. We've got an equalizer. We got. No. He's like, no. 1 button. See how simple that one button on the iPad is? Think. $2 trillion today.

Right? Right. Yeah. It makes so much sense. And tell me if I'm off on this. I like to get into my nerdy psychological mode, but let's see where I go with this. So when it comes to emotions and the tie of simplicity to emotions, it's easy to understand. But as we start to make these pitches more complicated and as we try to connect with people, but we do it in a way that's a little bit more difficult to understand, to me, it seems as though what we're doing is we're taking them out of that emotional state and moving them to a state where they have to process at a high level. And so even though we're trying to connect emotionally with them, it's difficult for us to do that because they need to process at a high level. So it takes them out of that emotional type of mode.

There's a place for both of those type of things. I find you start with emotion when you've connected, then you go into logic and reason. Logic and reason can get into incredible technical detail that, you know what I mean, can just go on for days and days. And that might be appropriate in a lot of. Lot of situations. But I find that if you connect and it might just be one slide, it might be simple enough. Think of people who just speak. They connect with the audience by telling a joke in the beginning. Once they've connected, they go, oh, hi, I'm James, and I'm here to talk about abc. That's a way of. That's the same thing. You connect with them. It opens them up. It loosens it up. I strike a commonality with you. You have the same pain I do. So, like we're. You know, we live. Misery finds each other Right, right. And you know, that's a, that's a good thing. Find a pain point and join the person in that pain point.

Yeah.

Whatever it is in your industry. Because every industry is built around a pain point.

That's true. That's true. And when you.

Without a pain point, no one pays money.

Exactly. That's 100% true. And sometimes people are a bit apprehensive to kind of hold like, zero in and be laser focused on that pain, but really the pain of change needs to be seen as less than the pain of staying in the same spot.