Transformative Leadership: Insights from Ex-Green Beret Jan Rutherford

Hello my fellow negotiators.

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I'll catch you later. Jan. Thanks for coming on the show, my friend.

Thanks for having me. It's great to see you again.

Yes, likewise. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, my name is Jan Rutherford. I'm the founder of Self Reliant Leadership, and I get to work with leaders and teams all over the the country and sometimes in different parts of the world. And I do that through executive coaching and workshops. And I've got a podcast like you. And probably the coolest, sexiest thing I do is few times a year I lead Crucible Expeditions combining executives and military veterans out in places like Moab, Utah. And we go out there and do a digital detox and help people realize they gotta slow down to speed up and, and it's a really great environment. And, and that's what we wrote a book about was, you know, hey, we learned a whole bunch of stuff, you know, over the past dozen years on Crucibles and people in adverse conditions and how does that relate to the business world? So that's what we did. And by the way, a reminder to everybody listening, we had Kwame on our podcast. It was great. I was just telling them before we hit the play button, the record button, that I was quoting them as early as, as of late, you know, this morning to somebody.

That's incredible. Jan, I really appreciate you. And yes, we, maybe what we could do is we could take that episode from that when I was on your show and put it on the feed as a bonus episode too, so people could see that as well. Yeah, that'll be fun. Well, this is amazing. And before we get into this, talking about becoming a Self Reliant leader and all of the difficult conversations that need to go into that process, I think it would be helpful to also talk about your military background too, because your story is unique.

Yeah. Well, thanks. Well, it was a long time ago what I think. You know, I was in, I was in the military from age 17 to age 26, nine years. So I was a kid. You know, if they say our prefrontal cortex isn't really fully developed till we're 25, well, most of my time I was not fully developed. You know, I went in, I didn't have a lot of options. You know, I, I, I, I couldn't afford school, I didn't get a scholarship. I, I didn't have a lot of options. But I thought, geez, this will Help me grow up. I'll get money, a little tiny money for college. There wasn't a GI Bill. And, you know, I'll see what's what. And, you know, in talking to the recruiter about options, you know, he said, you should go Special Forces. And I said, you know, I don't want to be a military policeman. And he said, no, Special Forces is the Green Berets. And I went 101 pounds. Here I was a senior in high school. And he said, well, you do have to gain two pounds to jump out of planes. So I did. By the time I went on active duty, two weeks out of high school, 17 years old, I weighed 114. And through just, you know, a stubborn will, I was telling somebody the other day, I don't know, that I achieved earning a Green Beret. As much as I survived the training, I did not quit. And I think, you know, that was a big lesson to me and the idea of persistence and determination, you know, being gritty. And somebody the other day asked me, you know, would my life have turned out the way it did if I hadn't done that? And I said, I don't know. It was really good to learn as a teenager that if you're really determined, if you want something bad enough, you can achieve it. But it, you know, it requires sacrifice. Know, I mean, and in my case, a lot of that training was about being cold, wet, tired, and hungry. And many of the people I've interviewed over the years, you know, all kind of point to some adversity in their life that they overcame, and that really allowed them to go forward, that sometimes, you know, that. That suffering, that adversity was a gift. And I really look at it that way, know that whole military thing. But I also had a TED Talk where, you know, the big theme of it was, hey, when you create your own crucible, your own severe test, you change your narrative, you change your story. And I don't know if we can change our story without going through hard stuff. And leadership is hard. You know, working with people and getting along can be hard.

Love this. This is great. And I wanted to make sure that we incorporated that into the interview, because so much of what leadership entails is just the resilience and the grit and the strength and tenacity to survive long enough to earn success. And I think a lot of people in the. In the audience, that when they look back on their lives and sometimes when they look at the. The most challenging or impactful moments of their lives, it wasn't so much that they achieved more so than they survived. And. And that in itself is an achie achievement. And if you don't have the right mindset, it's going to be very difficult or borderline impossible for you to execute with the right skill set. And with these tough conversations, you need to be tough. So I really want to focus on that mindfulness that the mindset required and the grit and resilience required to lead. And so for the leaders out there, where would you say all of this begins?

Well, you know, I. The way I construct leadership is really three pillars. You know, you have to lead yourself, which is, you know, the problem there that we're trying to fix as leaders is, you know, hey, take ownership, take personal responsibility for leading yourself, for being squared away. The second is leading others. And the problem set with that is accountability. Well, that starts with really clear expectation setting, and then the third is leading an organization. And the problem set with that is. Is an alignment. There's silos. Well, as a leader, you've got to focus people. So in order to do that, go. Go back to step one, you have to lead yourself and. And realize it is not about you. You know, you. You have to get to a certain point from a professional and personal maturity where you're. You're squared away mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually in order to lead other people. And, you know, you've. You've got to be healthy, you know, healthy. Head, head, heart, hands. And that takes some. Some doing. And, you know, we were talking again before a little bit about cardio and, you know, and endurance. As a leader, you got to have endurance because it's. It can be a slog and it can wear you down. And. And there is a performative aspect to it. We want to be authentic, of course, but we also have to be mindful. What does the team need? Do they need me to be, you know, gentle and empathetic, or do they. Do I need to be, you know, come down on them and there's right time and the right place for that. And what I've said repeatedly over the, especially since the pandemic is the challenge of our time is to be a leader that can personalize an approach for individuals based on their own drivers, goals, fears. Yet you're perceived as fair. That's hard. The last thing I'll say, Kwame, is it would be like going to the doctor's office and the doctor says, oh, you have a cough, go in that room. And you go in that room, and there's 20 people in there with a Cough. And then that doctor walks in and he says, okay, ampicillin four times a day, see ya. To everybody in the room. You'd be like, but, you know, I, I have an allergy to that. And I, you gotta, you gotta treat me as an individual patient. You, you can't just treat me, you know, like that. And I think the days when we can walk in a room as a manager and say to everybody, make it happen. You know, it, it, it's just not cutting it, you know that command and control, if it ever did. And that means you got to slow down, you got to take time, and you got to get to know people at emotional level. And, and here's the other thing that really relates to you is that expectation setting that we all think we have to do with people. You have to remember it's not just expectation setting. I'm going to tell you what to do. It's, I need to negotiate with you because I have these five priorities and you have this things that you want to do. And in a perfect world, I make all my five priorities yours. But maybe there's like this little pet project over here that you really want to do and it'll keep your mind in the game, keep you committed. If I take that away from you, I've lost your heart in, in your soul. So, you know, I think as leaders, we have to give permission to people to negotiate with us. And we have to have enough trust in them and enough self confidence and humility to negotiate with people when we're leading them. We can't just tell people what to do. Unless of course, it's life or death and you're a first responder. There might be times when that's appropriate. Anyway, that's long winded. Kwame.

I've got a quick story for you. So I was at this keynote and I talked to a listener and he said, kwame, I love the podcast, but my favorite part, man, I love those commercials.

And I said, I don't think this.

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No, it was perfectly winded. This was one of those times for me as a. As an interviewer where I forgot I was interviewing. I was just taking notes like I was listening to the podcast. This was great. And as far, especially for me as a leader, there's so. Everything that you said resonated instantly. And there's one part that I want to go deeper on. Well, just because of time, I want to go deeper on all of it, Jan. But I'm going to focus on expectation setting. But just by way of recap here with the three pillars of leadership. Leading yourself, leading others, and leading the organization. That tracks really well with what we do at ANI because we think about it through mindset, skill set, and culture. Because you have to have the right mindset around these conversations. And just by adopting the right mindset, it will naturally start to. To change your skillset, too, because the right mindset leads to the right skill set. But if you are dealing with fear, anxiety, stress, lack of confidence, then you won't even have the mindset to put the skillset into action. But then when you layer in the culture, now we can see how we can strategically use our skill set to affect positive change within our organization, to make everything work well, you know, so we can negotiate real change within our organization using this. And the challenge, the leadership challenge, I've never heard it articulated so well, which is having a personalized approach while still being perceived as fair. Key words here. Personalize. Yeah, so each individual person will be treated differently, but at the same time fairly and equitably, which is a tough balance. But then perception of fairness, because you can be very fair and still not be perceived as fair. And that comes down to narrative, storytelling and a little bit of negotiation, too. And then when we talk about expectation setting, first I want to get your opinion on this, saying that I heard back in the day. And then we can kind of flow on this, because I think this is where a lot of leaders struggle. They say the number one cause for the breakdown of relationships is the violation of expectations, and everything else is a symptom. So tell me what you think about that, and then let's go deeper into.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think in relationships, marriages, everything. I think if mis. You know, if there's misaligned expectations, I mean, that's the source of conflict oftentimes, especially at work, it's when people feel disrespected. And, you know, we. I got that from a woman that led 100 men in Antarctica for a year. She said if they fought about bacon, you know, it was because somebody felt disrespected. I mean, that's the source of all the fights. And you think about world events, you know, some world leader felt disrespected. So, you know, I'm gonna have to show you, you know, and again, pride and ego get in the way of a lot of things. But you know what I say to people, you know, because everybody talks about accountability, and I'm like, accountability should take two seconds. Either you did it or you didn't to this standard or not. Because if you didn't, then I'm back to expectation setting. Like, how do we fix this? If you did it, then I give you kudos that are timely, truthful, specific and personalized. But if somebody says, gosh, my team isn't performing, I'm so frustrated, I need to have a difficult conversation. I ask three questions. One, does that person absolutely know what's expected of them from a results perspective and a behavior aligned with core values, observable behavior? Second, and they'll go, I think so, not good enough. The second thing is, I'll say, do they know where they stand? Meeting, not meeting or exceeding expectations? Well, I don't. And then the third is, I will say, does that person understand how their role fits in the organization and what the consequences are of performing or not performing? And those consequences could be, you know, this is why it's vital if you don't, you know, hit this number, you know, we're not going to meet payroll or, you know, whatever it might be. But a consequence can also be, hey, you know, if you do this, you're going to get praise. And if you don't do this, I'm going to talk to you. And it could be as simple as me figuratively putting my hand on your shoulder cling and saying, hey, man, you let, let the team down, you let me down, but most of all, you let yourself down. I mean, that's a consequence. I mean, nobody wants to let the team down. I, I, I mean, I, I've never met anyone that wants to let the team down. But we don't have those conversations. And we also don't catch people doing things right enough. So that's where, that's where I come in on expectations. And I was talking to someone today, and again, it was about accountability. And I said, you know, hey, if we're in a workshop right now, and I said to those two people, hey, what are your top three priorities? Do you think they would be what you want them to be, the top three priorities. And he's like, good question. You know, we should have that clarity, you know. Oh, man.

So listeners who are listening on the podcast, Jan, as he was telling the story, was grimacing when those questions were asked. Like, yeah, that's how people respond. For me as a leader, Jan, as I was putting myself in those hypothetical scenarios, I was grimacing too, because it made me realize as much as we want to put the accountability on the people who are on our team, team as leaders, there is a lot more accountability on us for not communicating what we need very clearly.

Yeah, yeah.

This is an incredible self check, because just recapping here, if we are saying that somebody's not meeting expectations, I don't think very many leaders would be able to go through those. That little checklist of the three questions. Do they know what to do and the results that we want with clarity? No. Do we know where they stand in their performance and their role in the organization? Maybe not. Do they know the consequences? Probably. We probably haven't articulated that. And so these people, in your mind, they're underperforming, but oftentimes in their mind, they're doing a great job.

Well, here's the other thing I'll say, Kwame, is, is if you go, if you basically go, well, we know we need to do those things. Why aren't they happening? And one thing I like to do with teams and individuals right at the beginning is the calendar exercise. Like, hey, let's take two weeks out of your calendar and put it into four or five buckets and let's make a pie chart. Where are you spending your time? And it a big chunk will be meetings and email, of course, and then there'll be a little tiny slice. It's one on one people development, like 4% or maybe 11%. And then here's, here's the hard part is, okay, you don't get more time. 24 hours is more than enough time. Every day you don't get more time, what do you need to do less of so you can spend more time developing your people so you can delegate, so you can go sit up on the hill once in a while and make sure things are. All the right things are being done. You can't be in the trenches all the time doing everything, being the player more than the coach. And you know, again, it's a self discipline thing about your calendar. And we all know that we control our own calendar and we can play the blame game. All we want, but it really goes back to this discipline, and it's hard. And, you know, I. I would say as an executive coach, 50% of my time is helping people realize you need to spend more time over here. You know, how do we get. How do we make that happen? And. And the. The reason it's hard is we have to break bad habits and we have to create new habits. And we all know from personal experience that's really hard. Really hard.

Man. I'm just sitting here smiling, Jan, because this has shifted from a podcast to an executive coaching session, because everything you're hitting here is hitting with just pinpoint accuracy here. Just not just for me, but other leaders that I've talked to and worked with before. And really, it goes back to just that stoic mindset of controlling the things that are within our control. And then also with that self leadership, I would equate that a lot of times to the internal negotiation we have to have with ourselves, because humans, we're designed to play that blame game, and it hurts when we have to recognize that a lot of the blame lies at our feet. And if we are leaders, that requires a whole lot of responsibility. And what we're seeing in this podcast is that it's even more responsibility than we thought, because in order for these relationships to go well, these projects to go well, it requires a high level of not just reactive, but proactive communication. And a lot of times we're letting life happen to us and we're not taking control early enough, and then things go out of control, and then we're surprised and we blame other people. And so when, in order for us to be an effective leader, what we're recognizing here is that we have to. To have frank conversations not only with other people on our team, but also with ourselves, to figure out what is our responsibility and then what we should do about it. Yeah.

Yeah, we get into. It happens culturally. You know, is your culture by design or is it by default? You know, is your. Is your. The way that you conduct yourself every day, is it by design and intention and deliberate, or is it by default? And I do this, and on the video I'm doing, I'm gesturing. So many people think I, I'll just do this all day, and that's a full day. And I get paid. And I remind people, you are not paid to be busy. You're paid to get stuff done. And as leaders, if you've got a whole team of people that think their job is to be busy, that's on you. And we've we've defaulted to that in a lot of cultures, especially since the pandemic. And I see it especially with producers, bd, business development, sales. But like, hey, this whole thing, this business thing, at the end of the day, it's about relationships. And it, at a certain point you, the way you have relationships is you interact with other humans. You know, you can do it on video and phone, but you also have to get out. I mean, you, you can't be, it's not doing email, it's not doing spreadsheets. It's, I mean, you, you have to really develop that and get to know people. And you know, and part of it is this is the humanity we were talking about a little bit before is, you know, which would really be nice if there's more humanity in the workplace is you have to care about people. I mean, you genuinely care about people.

You're so right. You are so right. And I think everybody intuitively knows that, but that doesn't make it easy to put into practice. And this, this might seem like a weird question, but I genuinely would like to know because a lot of times when people don't care about other people, it's not because they are cold hearted individuals, it's that, hey, caring comes with a cost and that is time, emotional energy and things like that. And those are two things that are at a premium. Sometimes you want to care, but you don't have enough time to care. Or that might be the excuse that we give ourselves. So for those leaders who are maybe struggling with that amount of time, energy and attention that is required to demonstrate care, how would you suggest they go about cultivating that care in a way that is beneficial to the relationship?

I mean, there's no substitute but time. You know, when, when I led an expedition in Patagonia, part of our hypothesis going down there was can we accelerate the development of a high performance team? And we're on this glacier, the wind's blowing, we're roped in, we can't talk to each other, the sun's beating on us. But we're hot and we're cold, it's windy, we can see where we got to be all day long, which is, you know, just crazy. And I remember this engineer comes up to me on one of our breaks. We had 10 minute break every hour. Just drink water and eat. And he said, I think I figured it out. You can accelerate it. It's like terminal velocity, you know, like when a skydiver jumps out of a plane for 10 seconds, they fall and then they hit 120 miles an hour, and they can't go faster, you know, and he said, I think that's the thing with a team. You can't accelerate it. You have to invest time. And there was a study that came out recently, and I'm not quoting it right, but was. It was about the number of hours it takes to develop like a best friend, you know, and it was. It was a lot of hours that you got to put in to developing that. There is no substitute. There's no substitute for the time that takes. And, you know, one of the other things that we were talking about was, you know, I mean, people want to be seen and heard. They want people that show interest in them. And, you know, as somebody that asks a lot of questions, Kwame, you know that some, you know, it's a gift to people. I mean, just like you're giving me right now, you're. You're asking questions. You're genuinely interested. You're making me feel smarter than I am. I mean, that's a pretty nice gift. And I mean, we can do that with the people that we work with. And again, if we're intentional, and again, if we carve out a bigger piece of the pie of our time to do that, we're going to see the return. It's just not going to be, like, immediate. But we also know that the morale doesn't improve with the beatings. You know.

So many gems. Jan, you're making this hard for me to end this interview because you keep on coming up with these incredible things. And now this is just a Kwame thought. Feel free to tell me if I'm. If I'm off base on that, because it might be a harsh reality. It's kind of hitting me hard now, too, because I'm thinking if the excuse that we keep on giving ourselves as leaders for not developing these relationships and not pouring into people, setting these expectations, and we keep on saying, I wish I could, but I just don't have time. If that is actually true, maybe you might not be the leader for this organization, because perhaps we need somebody who has the time to do the things that are required. And then we have to ask ourselves, well, am I holding this leadership position for myself, or am I holding it to serve others? And if I can't make time for them, maybe I shouldn't have this position.

It's such a great thought. Part of being a leader is raising your hand and saying, I will take on more responsibility. But you have to remember, you know, it's kind of like when we're on an expedition, if you're the leader for the day, guess what? You got to get up earlier. You do, you got to get up earlier, do your hygiene, eat your meal, make your coffee, and then take care of everybody else. And then at the end of the day, you don't get to go to bed first. You're taking care of people. And leadership in business isn't any different. You will have to make more sacrifices. And if you're not willing to do that, don't take the job, you know, and, and it's tough. And that's why leaders especially really have to take care of themselves. I mean you really, it's, it's like I'll give you an example. We, we just got out of Moab the desert and I on those trips, I have gotten hurt before. It's a hard trip. I mean, lots of dips and lowering and this and I mean bending. I mean it's not just a walk. I mean it's a slot canyon. But on this last trip we were at, I didn't, I didn't jump more than 4 inches at any point because 6 inches with a heavy pack on could be a sprained ankle. And like the last thing I need to do is be irresponsible and sprain my ankle and then the trip turns into something different. And so I would take great care and slow down and swallow my pride and ego, you know, and not look cool as I was, you know, making sure that I, I never was, you know, jumping more than like 4 inches just wasn't worth it. And you know, I mean taking on the leadership thing isn't about, it's again, it's never about you.

Yes.

Oh man.

And Jan, I think without a doubt this next question I'm going to ask is the most important question. Hypothetically, if there's somebody out there who wants to learn how to become more of a self reliant leader and how grit and disciplined duty forge indomitable teams. Do you know where they can get a book that covers such a topic?

Yeah, well, I'm happy. You know, actually on this trip I spoke about in Moab, my co author of that book you just quoted was with me and her name's Jackie Jordan and a number of people. I, it was fun because it's my second book, her first book, and a bunch of, I heard a bunch of people asking her, you know, what was your process? How'd you write the book? You know, why did you choose to, you know, write with someone else? And it was Really a really great experience working with somebody in collaborative, you know, over the course of two years to put the whole thing together. And we really based it on what we've seen on every crucible, the things that happen, you know, the preparation, the first time you get together, you know, the first evening when there's adversity. I mean, there's things that happen. And we told stories about that from wilderness areas we've been in. And really, how. How did the lessons there really relate directly to the business world? And, you know, because not everybody can go on a crucible, and we know that it doesn't scale. And we thought, gosh, we'd love to, you know, get that in writing as a foundation of, hey, here. Here's what we know after 12 years and 24 expeditions. And we hope that leaders in the future, whatever the crucible is, they're on or they create or part of what we're doing, they take that to the next level. Because what I still am trying to figure out is what makes a leader? You know, I have some ideas, but there's still things that I see, and I'm like, I. Why? Why is that person so effective? Why is what they're doing not working? I'm still just fascinated because the variables with humans are just infinite, and we're never going to create the perfect recipe.

Perhaps, Jan, what makes a good leader is somebody who is curious enough to keep on asking, even though there isn't a clear answer, which is why you're such a great leader, my friend.

Well, thanks. I think I'm, you know, like. Like most people, I am a work in progress, better than I used to be, but not nearly as good as I'd like to be.

Oh, this is great, Jan. A masterclass. As always, my friend, thank you so much for listening and listeners. Make sure to check out that book. There will be a link in the description of the episode. So, Jan, thanks again.

Thanks, Kwame.

Well, you're still here. That's a good sign. That means you must have really enjoyed the episode. And for super fans like you, we created Negotiate Anything Premium, where you can get breakdowns of some of our favorite episodes. And I did a breakdown of this episode. So that's coming up in a little bit.

But it's just a snippet, a little.

Taste, if you will. And if you want to hear the whole thing, make sure to click the link in the description to get your free trial of Negotiate Anything Premium. So you could hear breakdowns of episodes like this one other bonus content, and ask me Anything, sessions, all sorts of incredible things, all available in premium. So make sure to check that out and join premium today. Okay, team, awesome interview. Let's go ahead and do some bonus content. All right, Kwame Live reacting to my episode with Jan Rutherford, the authority of becoming a self reliant leader. How grit and disciplined duty forge indomitable teams. Great name for a book. Hard for me to deliver smoothly in the middle of the podcast, but I hope you all forgive me for that. So here are my thoughts. Even before we got onto the podcast, Jan was dropping gems. And so I think one of the things that was beneficial to me in my life is taking the time to ask really deep questions and then taking the time to get the right answer. Because a lot of times when you ask a deep question to yourself, the answer doesn't come immediately. For me, it took months. And so the thing that led me to start the American Negotiation Institute was this simple question. If everything in the world was free, what would I do with my time? Because everybody answers that initially the same way. Oh, I'd go on vacation. Oh, I'd buy these things. At some point, those things will get tired. You'll get bored with that. You'd want to do something for purpose. And what would that be? And for me, it was teaching people to have how to have difficult conversations and how to negotiate, how to advocate for themselves. That was it. And then I just needed to figure out how I could make that happen. And so one of the questions that he asked during his coaching is, what do you want out of life? And what makes a good life? And I love those two questions. I'm going to spend some time thinking about it. What do you want out of life? And what makes a good life? Because if you can answer those questions, that'll give you a lot more clarity on what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing. And one of the things that came up frequently before and during the conversation was just the value of time and the recognition that being a good leader and living a good life, it takes time. Success doesn't happen by accident. And so if you find yourself saying, I wish I could do this, but I don't have time, I wish I could do this, but I don't have time, it is likely that life is happening to you. It's likely that you're not doing the hard work of controlling what's in your control and trying to make time. And that requires a lot of sacrifice, that requires a lot of discipline. And even for me in my personal life, I'm recognizing, hey, in order for me to step up as a husband and a father, it requires more effort. Like, the things that are required are not necessarily intellectually challenging. In, in that it's hard for me to understand what to do. It's just hard for me to do it because I'm already exhausted because I'm doing all of these other things. And so it's up to us to have these hard conversations and say, maybe if I don't have time, it might be because I'm not prioritizing the right things. And I'm spending my time doing things that might be on other people's agenda but are not on my agenda. And this is really important for us to address early right now because the things that Jan and I talk about in the interview, they require time. There's no hack. You know, if there's somebody out here selling hacks on difficult conversations and hacks on leadership, you're probably looking in the wrong place because they're trying to attract people who wanted the benefit of hard work without putting in the hard work, time, focus and attention that's required for success. Okay, so there's no shortcutting this. You have to invest the time that's really, really important. Okay. So his first book, I believe, is called the Littlest Green Beret. And so he talked about it in the podcast. Him. First of all, being a Green Beret is an accomplishment. It is incredibly difficult to, to, to get to that level. But for him to do it at his size and weight was incredible. It was an accomplishment in itself. And so it kind of. I think that background is important. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else, and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that negotiate anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more.

I'll catch you later.