Turning Conflict into Connection with Natalie Garramone

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Natalie, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Kwame. I'm so excited to be here.

Yes, and we are excited to have you, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Absolutely. My name is Natalie Garamone. I am the owner and Principal Consultant of 180 focuses on workplace conflict resolution and mediation. And we are based in Richmond, Virginia, but operating globally.

Very nice. Okay. So doing conflict resolution in the workplace, I know this is something that is very needed. So usually when people reach out to you, what are the scenarios that bring them to you?

Yeah, Great question. I often say people are coming to me from one of two places. They are either coming to me because something has happened and they need help addressing it, or nothing's happened, but they want to get ready, prepare for it, be proactive in case something does, in case there's a difficult conversation that they need to have. What are those skills that employees need to have to be able to navigate that more productively?

I love it. It's so important because we recognize conflict avoidance is a problem, but then what's often not appreciated is the fact that sometimes you want people to have those conversations, but then you run into the situation where they don't have the skills to have the conversation at a high level. So I'm glad that you're addressing both of those issues.

Yeah, absolutely. I think we hear so often in organizations and from leaders, have the conversation, let's engage in difficult conversation. Let's transparent, where they're touting values of transparency and being candid. But what does it actually mean to practice that, especially in conflict situations, especially in tense situations? What do people need to know about how leaders expect them to handle conflict in those moments? I think it is all too often something that we talk about doing but really have trouble putting into practice.

Yeah, for sure. And some of the reasons why we will discuss in this episode, which I'm super excited about. So listeners, I'm going to just lay out the framework, then we're going to jump into it. The first one, I'll say I'm super excited about this first one, rehumanizing your adversary. That's number one. Number two, conflict avoidance at the executive leadership level. And we're going to give a special shout out to folks who are in human resources there. That's really important. And then lastly, number three, de escalation techniques for everyday exchanges. This is great. I'm pumped. So rehumanizing your adversary, tell us more about that.

Oh, I know whenever I use the word rehumanize, people gravitate towards it. And I think it's because it is so to the point about what is difficult about conflict. If you think of close your eyes and really think of a conflict situation that you have been in in the past six months, what did you do? So often we dig into our position. We have a need to defend whatever it is that we are trying to say. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But what it does in those moments is it causes me to the point I am trying to make and it causes the other person to be the point they are trying to make. So what are we, if we are argument points, we're not necessarily viewing each other as human beings. And so when I talk about rehumanizing your adversary in any given moment during a conflict, what we're talking about is being able to one, channel some compassion in that moment for ourselves because it's difficult and two, because the person is actually a person sitting across from us and I'm doing air quotes because that sometimes looks different in virtual situations, but they're still a person at the end of the day. So rehumanizing really is about taking a moment to say what's actually happening here. Who is saying this point? Who am I listening to in this moment? And one trick that I encourage people to do when they're trying to focus on rehumanizing someone is picture them out to dinner with friends or their family or petting a dog or, I don't know, something just human. Right. To help bring us back to that moment that this is a person that we're actually disagreeing with.

I love all of this, Natalie. This is so strong because it's one of those baseline, fundamental elements of effective communication that is often missed. And we try to stack tactics and strategies on top of that, but it is going to really be doomed for failure if we don't fundamentally view each other as humans. And I really love this point. I want to dig in on this because I'm so glad you say this is validating, because I've thought the same thing. We have to separate the points from the person. So the point that the person is making or the point that we're making and then recognizing, hey, my identity exists beyond my position or perspective in this moment. Can you go a bit deeper onto that one?

Absolutely. Oh, I love that you brought up identity. I feel like that's like, could be a whole other podcast episode. Right. Well, first of all, we have been really conditioned as employees in this society, particularly American society, to view conflict as a really negative thing. Right. It's why so many people have find it very challenging. And what else happens in the workplace? We get caught up in this idea, this perception of who we are supposed to be. And that is oftentimes our title, our role, our power dynamics do become our identity. And when we are being challenged or asked to elaborate on a point or maybe our idea is not being agreed with, what do we do? We have to protect that identity. And off we go into this ego preservation mode. Right. So we go into a defensive mode. We're protecting our identity, we're protecting our ego, and at the end of the day, we're protecting how we're perceived in our team or our organization. It can be incredibly difficult. What it sets us up to do then is become really ingrained in defending our point. And like we just talked about, it prevents us from seeing the people or even acting like a human sometimes in those moments, which just gets really fascinating.

Yes, it can get fascinating when you're not the person in it. It's frustrating when you're in it. And it's funny because I love watching. This is going to sound really bad. Just stick with me. Okay? So I love watching conversations break down. It's fascinating to me. Endlessly entertaining because from the conflict resolution perspective, I can see these are these points that people are just blowing through and missing. And if they would've just done something slightly different at this point, it would've changed the trajectory of the conversation. So when we're thinking about those inflection points in these conversations, what are some of the things that we should pay attention to that could be signals that either us or the person that we're talking to, we're not humanizing each other?

Oh, this is such a great question. I first want to just point out that there is so little effort often that gets put into the upfront work that could prevent exactly what you're talking about. Right. The breakdown in communication often happens from just a sheer misunderstanding. Let's talk about it on the most basic level. You use a word, I'm using that same word, and we have different definitions of that word. We don't have a shared understanding about what we're actually talking about in that moment. Right. So when you are in a role, like you're in or. Or like I'm in, and you're able to really channel that impartiality or that objectivity, and we can see where that humanization and that communication or shared understanding is breaking down. It can really frustrating to see, because one of the things that I listen for, for example, is do they actually know what this person cares about? Do they actually know what this person is motivated by? What interests does this person have in defending this point? Right. At the end of the day, why do they care so much about this particular thing that they say they care about? And in mediation, part of my role is peeling away, we say, those layers of the onion and getting to what are the act needs that this person wants to have addressed through a conversation. But oftentimes we're not doing that in the conversation. So if we can learn to listen for the needs and learn to listen to the true interest this person has in resolving something that seems so important to them, I think we could get a lot further in conflict and actually have it be more productive.

I agree 100%. And now let me channel the listeners here, because there is a certain subset of listeners that says, listen, Natalie, I know all of this stuff. I'm trying to be a good human, but the problem is them, they're not humanizing me. So I'm just retaliating. I'm the Good person. So what would you say to a person who brings that kind of perspective to this element of our conversation?

Oh, first of all, listeners, you are my favorite types of people. Let me just say that, yes, this is foundational. These things are fundamental, right? And when we hear them or we hear someone reminding us of them, they seem so simple and practical. What I would ask those listeners is how much time have you spent? Picture that person across the table from you, right. That you feel like is not understanding you. How much time have you invested in letting them know what they need to know about you? For example, do they know what's important to you? Could they list off maybe two or three of your values? Do they know what motivates you in the workplace? Or maybe what some of your aspirations are? So if you feel like someone's not understanding you, I like to flip it back on the other person and say, how much time have you invested in that relationship? And letting that other individual know what they need to know about you to disagree with you more productively? And even in that same, and even in just through the lens of conflict and disagreement, what do they need to know when they're disagreeing with you? Right. Well, maybe we can get clear and have a shared understanding of what that looks like before we are even in a place where we're disagreeing.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Brilliant. Yeah. I think we overestimate just how much people understand about us. And when you think about some of the original studies on the curse of knowledge, it was focused not just on expertise, but also it's just living in your head. So for the listeners, when we're talking about the curse of knowledge, it's the realization that it's really hard for us to remember what it feels like to not know something. So once you learn something, it's hard for you to connect with somebody who doesn't know that thing because you just think it's obvious everybody knows this. Right. So we have to remember, hey, what is obvious to us is not always obvious to other people. And it's our responsibility to educate folks so they know what it is that's going on in our world.

Absolutely. I could not agree more. And one question that I like to give people, as they are practicing, productive conflict and having disagreements in a more productive way. Disagreement Diffusion Planning is one of the workshops that I do which actually helps people prepare for having a disagreement productively. This is something that's really effective with business partners. But one question I ask people is, when you're in the midst of a disagreement, what's something, even just one thing the other person can do or say to help turn the conversation around in that moment for you? And asking something up front and having that knowledge going into a difficult conversation can really be a game changer for a lot of people.

That is really cool. I've never thought of that. I think that's a really strong thing to do. I think that's another layer of preparation that we should all add to our difficult conversations because it brings a different perspective to the strategic approach that we come to the table with.

Absolutely. Yes. The preparation is often an underlooked piece or undervalued part of the process. For sure.

Definitely. Well, perfect. I think this is a great time for us to transition to point number two, which is conflict avoidance at the executive leadership level. And then, of course, giving a special shout out to our friends in human resources, too.

Yeah, the leadership level. Such a difficult level inside an organization responsible for so much. I really, really feel for those leaders out there because they really do have a responsibility for what that psychological state and that safety is within their organization. Right. It's a lot of responsibility for one person or a team of people. A question that I often ask leaders and individuals in HR when I'm working with them is how does. Tell me, how does conflict get handled at your company? And what's really fascinating is that a lot of them say, that's a great question. I'm not sure.

Or.

Well, we tell our managers to give feedback, to be transparent to. We have a continuous feedback cycle. We do performance reviews. Right. They go to the systems and process pieces. But very few people philosophically have a perspective on how conflict gets handled at their company. And I do think it is a responsibility, certainly at the leadership level. And then HR has a difficult role in implementing or sometimes playing an active role in that conflict management. But I do think that responsibility falls within those roles to really say, hey, here's how we want to engage in conflict. Here, here's what it's going to look like for us to do this productively.

This is great, Natalie. And honestly, this is really helpful for me too, because for me we have a relatively small team, but still we do these conflict resolution trainings and we create these processes for other people. But then we realize, oh my gosh, we didn't make it for ourselves. It's easy to overlook even when this is your world. And I think it's so important too, because again, it shows the value of a great open ended question. Hey, what's your process? Oh, you help them to reveal that gap to themselves. Instead of coming in and saying, hey, you don't have anything and that's a problem, you say, hey, what do you have? And they're like, my goodness, we don't have anything and this is a problem. So just from your approach, I think that's really strong. But then we could also see systemically within a company how this could be really problematic. So can you paint the picture for the audience to what it looks like if you don't have these types of systems and policies and procedures in place?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think speaking specifically about conflict avoidance and going back to something we mentioned earlier, a lot of people say that they want to engage in conflict productively, but they don't have the organizational structure or processes or systems or that leadership philosophy around conflict management to be able to do it in a way that says, okay, here's how we move through this or here's how we're expected to move through this. What I see most frequently is avoidance first and foremost at the leadership level. So if I'm a leader and I happen to be conflict avoidant, and there's a lot of different ways you can find that out, right. United States Institute of Peace has a wonderful free assessment that people can check out. There are lots of different conflict assessments and leadership assessments. And I know a lot of organizations do 360 evaluations where we can identify am I conflict avoidant as a leader? So I would say the first step is figuring out how do you as an individual at the leadership level actually navigate conflict? For those that are conflict avoidant, we really have to understand the implications of what that means for your organization. Where is that conflict avoidance playing out first and foremost? Probably at the executive team level. Right. And then we see a trickle down effect from there. If I'm in hr, what am I looking for, what indicators am I looking for to tell me then how I have to manage conflict within The HR function, oftentimes they're not given specific tools or techniques or again, even that philosophy to say, here's how we want you to step into conflict situations. Or better yet, here's where we don't want you to step in. And if we believe it's the responsibility of a manager to provide feedback or to proactively manage conflict or to learn about their team members as human beings in order to get ahead of issues that may arise on teams. So I'm rambling a little bit here, but really I do believe that responsibility is on leadership to then even engage our friends in HR and how they should show up as well.

This is really, really helpful too, because I like the fact that you're being specific about the tools and techniques that people need. So every organization will have a different approach. Those organizations have the responsibility of providing people with the tools and techniques that work within the approach. That's really important. Something that I loved that we don't talk about enough is what conversations not to engage in. I thought that was really interesting. Can you go deeper on that one?

Absolutely. Let's say hi to our friends in HR for a moment because they have an incredibly difficult job and are often the people who are thrust into conflict situations and being asked to. To help fix this Right. Situation with a manager and direct report. Maybe there's been bubbling tension for a while and now it's surfaced as something that has to be addressed. When we go to HR in this situation and we're asking them to help fix it or to mediate a conversation, for example, we're putting them in a difficult position because they may not actually be the right person to jump in at that point. What I encourage people to do is say, what was the role of the manager leading up to that? Right. So HR is in an interesting spot where they have opportunity to, yes, perhaps depending on the situation, step in and help resolve it. But also put that onus back on the manager and say, let's talk about your process for managing conflict and how you're doing that within your team. So there may be situations where it's helpful to step out. Another thing that I really focus on, especially with leaders at the higher levels in organizations, is are you enabling or are you empowering in conflict situations? And for leaders who have a tendency to want to step in and solve. Right. And these might even be our friends who are conflict avoidant because, oh my gosh, there's a conflict, it's uncomfortable. Let's just kind of fix it. I'll help fix it is that the right thing to do? Maybe not. It may be your responsibility as a leader in that moment to say, I could help you solve this, but I'm more interested in equipping you with the tools to resolve it or solve it or navigate it on your own. So I do think it is is really important to have the ability to zoom out of a situation and figure out what your role in that conflict really should be.

This is powerful because I think this really shows the benefit of internal negotiations, negotiating with yourself, figuring out why you want to do certain things. Because if your natural reflex is to go into God mode and solve everybody's problems and do everybody's job for them, then that might be indicative of a deeper issue with regard to who you have on your team and who you are as a leader too. Do so when we start to feel these disruptions and recognize that we want to jump in and have these conversations, this is really helping us understand why it's so important that the negotiation needs to start with ourselves.

Absolutely. And it's a really difficult thing to do because it requires self awareness. Right. How am I actually showing up in conflict situations or what are my natural tendencies when it comes to managing conflict? And it also requires us to acknowledge our ego in those moments, especially at the leadership level, and our desire to protect an image, preserve an identity, or just to be the hero in a situation which not everybody needs all the time.

Yes, this is good. And before we move on to the third step, and this is probably going to be part of it too, I'd love to hear your perspective on ego. So ego is going to play a role in everything that we do. I think it's important to have a little bit. But an ego out of control is highly problematic. So. So for folks who might be saying, after listening to this episode, hmm, you know what, maybe my ego is getting in the way. What are some pieces of advice you have for them to address that issue of ego?

Yeah. So I'll share a little bit about why this or how this informs my practice and the work that I do. So my background's in organizational development, change management and culture strategy. The specialization obviously is in conflict resolution and mediation. And I am a certified mediator in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Yeah.

But leading up to this, some of the things that have informed my practice and presently inform my work are. I have a 200 hour yoga certification. I don't teach. I'm not out there teaching yoga classes. But it is something that has really informed how I look at things like attachment Detachment, ego. And I also have gone through mindfulness based stress reduction certification as well. So these help me look at something like ego and ask the people who I coach or during a training, what's behind. What do you think is. Is behind your need to step in in a situation like that? Right. Why is that important to you? Who you are, how is it tied to your identity, and what would happen if you didn't step in? So sometimes based on how we ask the questions that we ask, we're able to get to what ego means for a particular individual. Because ego is, again, one of those words that I can say ego. You can say ego. The listeners can hear the word ego, and we all have a different idea of what that actually looks like in practice for us. I think societally, we hear the word ego and think somebody who's kind of full of themselves or really confident, but that's not always necessarily what it means, especially in conflict situations. Right. So I think that context is important for those that I work with to understand how I approach something like that. And then those are just a couple questions that I asked to better understand how ego shows up differently for individuals.

Now you have me thinking for myself, like, where is my ego? This is really helpful. And listeners, I want you all to just appreciate the complexity of this too, because it's not an easy little 1, 2, 3, checkbox to see what it is. Oh, is my ego out of control? Like a buzzfeed test, you know, it's not that simple. It's going to be different from different people. Different people will even describe it differently. I'm really glad that you said that, because to one person, it's like, hey, I have a healthy ego. Another person might describe that as confident. Another person might describe that as arrogant. So we have to recognize what those definitions mean to you and to different people, but then also just recognize that if our mindset is off, it's going to lead to a performance gap. What is the genesis of this performance gap? I'll give an example for me too, sometimes where I see where my ego is. Sometimes it's in a conversation and I start to feel myself being defensive, and I realize, hmm, that's not persuasive. But I feel really, really passionate about saying this one thing right now. What is it? So to your question, what's behind that need to say that thing? Hmm. I might feel the need to make the person see me as intelligent or smart or something like that. I'm like, is that what I really need out of this conversation right now? No, maybe I should sit back and be a bit compassionate, dare I say, use some compassionate curiosity. Right. In these situations. But again, we have to recognize that sometimes the ego will manifest itself differently. But we have to have some kind of mechanism to reverse engineer the right solution in the moment.

Absolutely. I think that's such a great example and I appreciate you putting it into practice for yourself. And I think too, ego in the midst of a conflict is an attachment to an outcome that we feel so strongly about. Right? Right. And in mediation, it's more about what is a mutually acceptable outcome. Not necessarily mutually beneficial, because both people may not feel like they've benefited or won at the end of it, but detaching from the thing that we feel like is so important to give us a little bit of leeway, if you will, for that compassion or to see the other perspective to do a 180, as you might say.

Nice. I like that. This is so good. And now I have my inspiration for a LinkedIn post. I'll give you a shout out on ego and attachment. So this is good. Perfect. And now let's go to number three, de escalation techniques for everyday exchanges. This is great. So where should we start there?

I mean, it's just a perpetual buzzword is active listening. And active listening is a very real thing. And I don't want to discredit active listening. It's incredibly important. What I like to remind people that in conflict situations that we can be active listeners, but we also can practice reflective listening or reflective acknowledgement. So when we are in the midst of a conflict and we are trying to shift to a place of de escalation and let's just create a shared understanding of what de escalation in a particular moment. In this instance, I might be talking about maybe we're both in an elevated emotional state or maybe we're talking over each other. Maybe when we're person keeps interrupting the other. Right. So it can be incredibly difficult to even engage. What I try to encourage people to do is certainly can be difficult to actively listen in that moment. Right. Or to practice active listening. And so when we talk about reflective listening, what I'm asking people to do is tap into the power of silence. Right. And I know you talk a lot about this. Right. Sometimes you don't necessarily have to say anything. And that can be a lot more powerful than talking and pay attention to what are they actually saying? What are they saying is important to them. Can I better understand their underlying feelings, interests and needs in this particular moment? And the silence or the quietness combined with truly allowing someone the space to talk, it can be incredibly powerful and can help really lower the emotional state of a situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Natalie, but it sounds like we're almost turning this process of listening into a meditation of sorts where.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah. Because it sounds like we are focusing completely on them. So a lot of times we come in with our perspective, we come in with our positions, what we need other people to know. But instead, it seems like the first step of de escalation is just using this reflective acknowledgment and listening in this type of way, just focusing exclusively on what they need and what they're trying to convey. Is that a fair conceptualization of it?

I think it's 100% fair. And I love the meditative angle because it is what we're doing. And we are channeling that objectivity. We're channeling our impartiality in that moment. We're allowing ourselves to kind of zoom out of a situation, move beyond ego in that moment, and really say, what are they telling me that they need? Even if their words are saying that they need something, is that really it? What questions can I ask to better understand the root of the issue? What are we arguing about? What are we actually trying to solve for here? Right.

Yeah. And again, speaking to the ego, we have to recognize that we have assumptions, but we don't have conclusions here that are valid. We still need their help in order to get a holistic perspective of what's happening. We don't just come in with perfect knowledge of the situation. They're still an active participant. Can you tell us a bit more of the psychology behind this? Why does this work? Because I think there's going to be some skepticism and say, Natalie, if I just sit here and listen passively, then they're going to run all over me. So tell us what's really happening behind the scenes.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not preface this by saying I'm not a psychologist, but a lot of the organizational development work that I've done is grounded in organizational behavior and organizational psychology. And at the end of the day, as humans, we're wired to connect with other humans. Right. We're not necessarily wired to tear each other apart. That has a different place in nature. Right. But as human beings, we want to connect and truly find ways to figure things out, especially in the workplace context. Right. We have an incentive, we are incentivized to figure things out together. So it becomes clear to a Lot of people, especially when I'm in mediation situations, when you give someone an acknowledgment or a validation that what they're feeling is real, that what they're saying you are hearing, that the space that you have together is space that is being used for the both of you to move from me versus you to us versus the issue. That can be really meaningful. And it creates connections that allow us to work together better moving forward. So when we're able to move through those difficult moments, it actually equips us for the next conflict that we navigate with that person. I talk a lot about collecting data points in the work that I do, especially in the trainings, because we are are always on the lookout for whether someone has our back, whether they stick up for us. Did they actually hear what I said in that meeting? Did they go behind my back and say something to someone else? Do their actions match up with their words? Right. All of these things. We're constantly scanning our environments for validation that what we think about someone is correct or things that point to. That's not what I thought they would do. Right. And so we collect those data points, and every data point that we collect or an experience that we have with a particular individual is one that tells us, I can trust them, I can work through difficult things with them, or I'm going to be a little more hesitant the next time I go into this conversation with someone. And I love citing research from the Gottman Institute, which, if you're probably familiar with, I'm sure, but Gottman is marriage counseling. But it's so appropriate, especially in the work that I do with business partners. I think this. I hope I don't misquote it, but I think it's for everybody. Every negative interaction or for every negative experience exchange that you have with a particular individual, you need at least five positive experiences or data points built up in that bank for us to be able to navigate that one negative interaction successfully or more productively. So, again, kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier. How often are we focusing on building up that bank of positive experiences, those connections, in order to better manage the conflicts when they do arrive?

This. Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. I could talk about Gutman and his research forever. So good. So good. And, Natalie, I could talk to you forever, as you can tell, because we are way over time. So I appreciate your generosity here. This was really great. And for those folks who are listening and said, hey, listen, I need some more Nadalie in my life. What is the best way for them to connect and work with you.

Yeah, absolutely. So my company is 180 all spelled out. I did say do a 180 because that is our company slogan. You can head to the website. It's 180io. You can also find find me on LinkedIn and you can find 180 on LinkedIn as well. And I would love to hear from you.

Awesome. Natalie, thank you so much. This was really, really great.

Thank you, Kwame. I've really enjoyed speaking with you.

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