Understanding the Effects of Implicit Bias on Conflict and Learning Strategies to Overcome It with Daphne Jordan, CFP and Cameo Roberson, AAMS

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings, both virtually and in person, all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Cameo and Daphne, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Kwame, for having us.

Yeah, thanks.

It's my pleasure. So, how about we get started with some brief introductions? Cameo, you can go first.

Yeah, absolutely. My name is Cameo Roberson and I am co founder and co chair of the national association of Personal Financial Advisors, NAPFA Diversity and Inclusion Inclusion Initiative. I'm also an advisor, consultant and financial coach of Atlas Park Consulting and Finance, where I really work with both advisors and clients in a way that positively impacts their lives. So, as an advisor and a coach based in the San Francisco Bay area, I help Gen XY women and small business owners better manage their money in smart ways, creating a stronger financial foundation. Additionally, as an operations consultant, I really help advisors with tangible ways to support their value proposition, helping them build systems, develop processes and workflows that really support an extraordinary client experience.

Perfect. Thank you for joining us. And Daphne, what about you? Tell us about yourself.

Sure. I'm Daphne Jordan. I'm a certified financial planner and I'm also the only wealth advisor at Pioneer Wealth Management out of the beautiful city of Austin, Texas. In my career, I enjoy helping folks reach and maintain their financial goals from a holistic standpoint. So, similarly to Google Maps, I assist in helping folks see potential pitfalls and clear pathways to map out their financial life.

Perfect. Thank you both for coming. So let's start with question number one.

Yeah, so this first question is kind of like a base type of question to serve as a foundation for rest of our discussion. Today I read an article that basically says that research shows relationships formed in neighborhoods and schools, along with the interactions and experiences that come from them, influence our hidden biases so they can start forming in children as young as six years old, and it gets reinforced in adulthood in social media settings and mass media. What do you think about that, Kwame?

I'm surprised it's not earlier than that, honestly. In the webinar, I told the story, story of how I was working with a consultant who was helping me with my fashion because I needed some help for the TED Talk. And he said, hey, you know what? You would look great in lighter colors, like some pastels, something like a pink. I said, yeah, that's good. A lavender. Yep, sounds great. And a light yellow. And I just had a visceral response against that. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't wear yellow. I stopped, and I asked myself, I was like, why did I respond that way to the color yellow? That's weird. And then I thought, back in high school, I used to wear yellow, but then it stopped. And then it hit me, because I'm a graduate of the Ohio State University. And of course, I was very glad to see a lot of the webinar attendees were from OSU as well. And so for those of you that don't know, our colors are scarlet and gray, also known as red for the uninitiated. But our enemies, our rivals are. That's Michigan, the University of Michigan, and they are maize and blue, also known as yellow. And so when I came to osu, I had things that were yellow in my wardrobe, but I was. It became very clear to me very quickly that socially that was unacceptable. So. And so at this point, it just became unconscious because I completely forgot about it. But if you look at my. My wardrobe, there's no yellow. And so it's little things like that that can really have a significant impact. I think about my son, too. He's three years old. When he was first learning to walk, he was walking around my brother's dog. And I was just afraid that the dog was going to knock him over all the time. So I kept on keeping Kai away from the dog, even though Kai wanted to go play with the dog. But then I noticed that after a few days of being around the dog, he started to show signs of fear toward the dog. And that came as a direct result of me. At the beginning, it was curiosity, and he enjoyed playing with the dog. But after seeing my fearful response, he learned to adopt that view, that perception into his mindset. And you can see how all of these Things, in most cases, they're very well meaning, kind of innocuous types of interactions that led to these biases. But you can tell when it comes to the media and something that your relatives and friends might say, those little things, they have an impact on the way that we see the world. And subconsciously we adopt those beliefs and it has a significant impact on the way we navigate the world.

That's actually great insight and is a great leader. Into the next question that's come up. You know, most of the time people aren't really explicit about their biases and it's difficult to react to something that isn't a direct insult. Do you have any tips for responding when you feel you are the target of negative bias?

Yes, and the timing of this is perfect because I try to read a book a week and the book that I finished last week is a book called the Coddling of the American Mind or something to that effect. And one of the things that they talked about was concept of microaggressions. And with microaggressions, these are things that are subtle, that are offensive to people who are in minority statuses that might be unintention. I think the classic example is the talking to. If you're talking to somebody who is black and then you say, oh, you speak so well, the assumption that comes along with it is why wouldn't you expect me to speak so well? But here's the thing about that. We really don't know what's happening under the surface. And the reason we categorize that as a microaggression is because we are assuming that what was stated came as a result of bias. But in reality we don't know 100%. Right. And so what I suggest is if you feel like you're the target of something that is is biased, what I would suggest for your own benefit is to assume the best of intentions. Because really there's no way to do a forensic psychological analysis to truly see for sure whether it is that what was said or done did come as a result of bias. And so one thing that I started to do is give people the benefit of the doubt. And this doesn't just apply to situations of microaggressions or when you feel as though you've been the target of bias with regard to what people said or did. I included this in the book for conflict management in general because it puts you in a better psychological state. So if I feel as though somebody did something to me that was a personal slight because of race or some Something else, then I feel worse about the bad thing that happened. The bad thing was already bad. And then because I take it personally, I make it even worse. So the first thing I do, I would suggest, just to make sure that you put yourself in the best mindset for success, is to assume the best of intentions with all of these situations. And then what I would say is, then ask for some clarity. So, for instance, if it's one of those situations where it could. Where it doesn't really have a significant impact on me, like a compliment that could be taken the wrong way, again, going back to you speak so well, I'll just roll with that. I'll accept it. I understand that was, you know, I don't know where that came from, but I appreciate the compliment, and then I'm just going to keep it moving. But if it's something more significant that has an impact on my career in some kind of way or my reputation in some kind of way, what I would do is I would simply ask for clarification. Because when it comes to negotiation and conflict, it's an information game. There's a lot of information that we don't have in this situation. And so what I would do is start the conversation, explain the sit, and then give them the opportunity to help me to understand what happened. And that's the exact formulation of the question that I would ask. I would just say, hey, cameo yesterday, XYZ happened. And we've been working together for a long time, and I really respect you. And so I just was wondering if you could help me to understand where that came from. And so that doesn't sound aggressive, right. And it just starts the conversation from there. And a lot of times we start too aggressively and then we invite a defensive response, and then the conversation goes astray from there. So I think that's going to be your greatest tool and a simple tool just giving people the benefit of the doubt in these situations. Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon. So you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

That is really great. It kind of makes you stop and think about what you're saying and how you're acting or reacting and responding. So then if you're on the sending in, we had one of the advisors ask what are ways we can improve our awareness of our own biases so we don't participate in example. The microaggression example that you gave a.

Few minutes ago, I think on for both parties, but especially on the parties that might be accused of sending something and that could be misinterpreted, I would make sure to enter the conversations with humility. And if it's a situation where you're not entirely sure how to act or what to do or say, it is completely okay to say that. Because when you do, when you enter those situations and you say, hey, I'm new, what should I do? How should I say, what should I say and how should I approach this situation? That shows the other party that what you what might come next was not malicious. And if you do make a mistake, they'll give you that grace that you want. And then also it puts you in a position to, to learn more about the situation. So it puts you in a position to make it less likely for you to make those mistakes in the future. I remember I had when I graduated from law school, I met a mentor, a new mentor. And he said, well, let me tell you this, I am, I'm older than you, I've been in the game a lot longer than you. And in the past I have been accused of rac and I honestly don't know why. I was, I was trying my best, but I don't know why. So as I teach you the law, I want you to teach me how to interact better with minorities. Because it's been an issue for me in the past. And as we, and now we're buddies, I mean, for the past five years, we hang out all the time, watch Buckeye games and everything like that. It's a really deep friendship. And I think that vulnerability that he had up front had a. Played a big role in that because it led to the free flow of information. When you're walking on eggshells because you're constant afraid of offending people, it really puts a damper on how close you can get to somebody. And so if you say from the beginning, listen, I might say something offensive, FYI, I didn't mean it. But if you, if I Do. Can you tell me? That's a great way to start a friendship? Because when those faux pas happen, and with me and my mentor, they definitely did, then you can address. Address the situation and everybody can get on the same page quickly without that ambiguity. That can sometimes cloud a relationship and make it difficult for true connection.

That's great. Sounds like you. Finding common ground and better understanding where the individual is coming from will help mitigate the situation so that things work out in a more positive fashion. Now, we know that sometimes there's a fine line between someone exhibiting bias and really someone trying to bait you or trying to create a debate. How can you know the difference? Are there any clues?

And when you say create a debate, do you mean that in a malicious way in order to entice you to make a mistake?

So this is someone who is maliciously trying to bait you into a situation and creating a debate. And so knowing that there's a fine line between someone exhibiting bias and someone being malicious, how can you really know the difference? And are there any clues?

Yeah, first of all, I don't think you can know the difference. And second of all, I don't think it benefits you if you know the difference. Honestly, when you have these difficult conversations, there is a lot happening. So, first of all, psychologically, what's happening is your brain is filled with a stress hormone called cortisol, which makes it more difficult to think clearly. You'll often interpret it as a threat, which will trigger the amygdala, the fight or flight response, which again, makes it more difficult to think clearly. So cognitively, you're not going to be at your best. When you are not at your best. You don't want to add externalities that are unnecessary. And trying to decipher whether or not what's happening is as a result of bias or as a result of generalized malice really doesn't help you too much in this situation because you're. You're allocating precious cognitive energy to trying to make a determination that doesn't really move the needle forward in that situation. If somebody is just in general being disagreeable, I think it's good enough to just log that as this person is being disagreeable to me. Okay, now I understand where this person stands in that regard. And now I can try to make some determinations as to what my course of action is. One of the things that we are seeing throughout, and I think this is the thread that binds all of these responses together, is that when it comes to negotiations and conflicts, it's an information game. That's where it starts. We don't know everything we need to know in order to resolve the conflict effectively. And so oftentimes in these situations we are, we feel the need to respond by making statements that end in periods or exclamation points, when in reality, especially at the beginning of the conversation, we need more information. We should be focusing on question marks. And so at the beginning of any type of interaction, especially when there are signals of hostility, go back to that compassionate curiosity framework that I talk about in the TED talk and the book where you first acknowledge emotions, then get curious with compassion and then engage in joint problem solving and use that as your foundation. And when it comes to the compassion part, that's just a trick that you use, a mental trick to slow you down and ask questions in a way that doesn't trigger an aggressive response. Because if you imagine somebody who you think is compassionate and then you ask yourself how would this person ask an open ended question in this situation? Most likely you're not going to sound like a. And we've all had those situations where somebody says you're yelling but you're not, you know, you're not yelling. What they really mean is that your tone is off and that can really derail a conversation. So gather information, slow down and try not to utilize cognitive resources in a way that doesn't move the conversation forward.

Focus on the question marks. That's a good thing to remember. And I'm glad that you brought up the idea that negotiation is an info game, information game. So how you negotiate when you don't.

Agree on the facts, you know, in most situations there are going to be disagreements where that are based upon a different understanding of facts. And the reality is that neither of us in this conversation have our own personal CSIs where we can go back and gather evidence and figure that stuff out. We are going to rely on memory. And in order to understand how bad of a situation that is, I think it's important to just kind of give a brief primer on how memory works. And so when it comes to memory, it's not like a video camera that records everything and we play it back, we remember it like that, but that's not the way it is. The way our memory works is that we create essentially bullet points that will say, kind of outline what happened in the situation. And those bullet points are going to be greatly influenced by our perceptions and our biases. Not focusing on racial biases here, just our biases towards ourself. Our self serving bias. Everybody has that, that so that's why in these situations, we typically look good in our memory. We're a little bit taller, we are a little bit fitter. And our arguments make a lot of sense when we look back and think back to how things went down. But the problem is somebody else is thinking the exact same way. So in reality, when you think and when you think back and you try to remember an argument or remember a situation and we see things in our mind's eye and we hear things, what's really happening is that we are taking those bullet points and we're filling in the gaps with our imagination. So in reality, when we're having a heated discussion about what did or did not happen in the past, it's my imagination versus your imagination. And really both of us are getting really upset about our imagination. So when it comes to these conversations, when there is a disagreement in the facts, what we need to realize is first of all, what do we agree on? What are the facts that we can agree on? And usually those are things that are going to be stripped of emotions, like it was Wednesday, you know, those type of things, just basic outlines of the facts. So let's focus on those things. Then you need to ask yourself what is what? Facts are important in order for me to get to my destination in this conversation. And then you'll be surprised how few of those contentious points are important when it comes to our ultimate goal. Because our ultimate goal isn't necessarily to be right with regard to the past. The past is done. I can't do anything about that. But what our goal is, is to create a future that is mutually acceptable between the parties. So oftentimes what I suggest people do is it's a grammatical trick. You sacrifice the past in order to win the future. You change the tense of the conversation. And so I sacrifice the past by saying, you know what, Daphne, you have a really great point. I think you're probably right. So considering all of this, what can we do to make sure that this doesn't happen in the future? And then we start talking about problem solving. Now we start talking about the future. And now we can have a collaborative conversation about what we can do to co create a future that works for both, for both of us. Because in the past that's going to be contentious. There were going to be enemies. But the future, I'm not mad about the future yet. It hasn't happened. How can I be mad about it? So I might as well work with you to try to make it acceptable. So focusing on the future is the Best way to overcome those issues. When you have disagreements about the past, that's great.

A lot of insight here. Now, Kwame, I'm wondering, can biases be protective? Urging caution when you're in a situation where you should be careful?

Yes. And I think the origin of most of these biases are protective in nature because we are a species that's, that's really mindful of threats. And so we're going to be more sensitive towards threats than we are to, towards opportunity. And when you think about it from an evolutionary psychology perspective, it makes sense because if I'm a hunter gatherer on the plains and I find new berries, that's, that's cool, that's nice. But if I miss the saber toothed tiger behind me, that's a, that's a bad day, I'm done. So, so bad things can kill me a lot faster. And so we're going to be more sensitive towards the negative things. And so we create these biases, also known as in certain situations, heuristics, which are mental shortcuts that help us to make quick determinations that protect us. And so these situations, typically behind a bias, is not a situation where you're dealing with somebody who is overtly racist or sexist or something like that. No, usually it's a situation where just because of the way that the media that they've been exposed to, the people that they've been exposed, exposed to, your brain, your subconscious downloads this software that is meant to protect them. It's, it's a very human response. And recognizing that bias comes as a result of your brain doing human things. It allows you to, it makes it a little bit easier to give people the benefit of the doubt in these situations and to treat them with a little bit of grace because that's just what our brains do. So, yes, most of the time it will be protective in nature. And so especially as, as minorities, it is incumbent upon us to take steps to make people feel more comfortable. And then people would say, well, Kwame, is that fair for that responsibility to be on our shoulders? And the answer is no. But the reality is, do you want to be persuasive or do you want to be right? I want to be persuasive. I want to get the things that I want in life and having maybe the moral high ground or standing on principle and not adjusting. If that's really important to you, then don't, then don't adjust. But for me, the things that I want in life are really important. So I'm willing to make those adjustments to make people feel more comfortable because a lot of these biases are rooted in protection. So I want people to feel safe.

And you kind of answered a question that went through my mind about is that there for us to have that burden? And okay. Well, one advisor commented that he or she thinks that bias continues is because of marketing, meaning that we are targeting two specific subgroups of people to women or by race or by age or by region. So they think it's a self created and self reinforcing type of issue. Do you agree or disagree with that sentiment and why?

I think it. It's a long walk, but I can't agree with that because when you think about marketing in terms of whether, whether it's products or whatnot, you want to reach out to people's base instincts, the things that are going to be the most motivating to them. And tribal instinct is something that's very close to people. The in group, out group type of bias is going to be very close to people. That's, that's real. And so that can cause people to further self segregate. And so if a product is bringing people down in one direction, that might be a direction that is further away from people who are different. So yes, that isolation can lead to perpetuating biases. But when it comes to things like marketing, and I'll lump in social media, social media is maybe one of the worst things to happen to the human brain in history. But those things aren't going to go away. That's the thing. They aren't going to go away because they're businesses. Their goal isn't to improve society. Their goal at this point, especially after they go public, is to make money. They're now beholden to the shareholder. Oh, what did you do this month to increase profits? Well, you know, I did things to bring people closer together. Didn't make more money. Money. Well, change your ways, get back to the money making. Right. So those things are going to be around for sure. I think it's helpful to understand those things in society that help to exacerbate the problem. But at the same time, I think it's important to come to terms with the fact that a lot of those things aren't going to go away. So it's going to be important to not only raise awareness, but also make sure that we all have the necessary skills to connect, especially when it comes to connecting in person. Because when it comes to connecting online, it really taps into our tribal nature and that pulls us apart.

That's Great insight. You know, when you compare to what's happening in social media and then what's happening in the real world and how do you navigate those. Those things in a way that makes sense, and it sounds like being aware that these things are present and then figuring out how to get from point A to point B. So I'm wondering, you know, are there any situations where you should admit your biases? Are there any pros versus cons in those situations?

Tough one. Yeah, that's a tough one. Because with me and my mentor, that was one on one. We were creating a deep personal relationship. But if you are in the business, in the business world, and you're in front of multiple people, there. There are people that are really sensitive and you might not be able to recover from that. Well, is. Is Jim a racist? Well, he said he was a racist. How do you come back? And so I think it's. It's really tough. So I think you need to recognize different strategies will apply to different people in different circumstances. So that's a conversation you can have with people one on one where you say, listen, I'm just trying to learn more about these situations. I haven't had much exposure, and if there's ever a situation where I say something inappropriate, please let me know. And I want you to know that it's not intentional. But I think that's a good way to go about those kind of those difficult situations without saying, hey, self identifying as somebody who has a bias, which might come off as difficult, and at the same time not putting pressure on somebody else to kind of be the de facto ambassador for a certain group. But when it comes to group dynamics in front of multiple people, I don't. I. That would be too risky. I would say. I think that would be too risky. And I would just try to make sure that you make it clear that you're there to listen, you're there to learn. But I. Strategically, I don't think it would be worth the risk to say something that could be that potentially explosive in a group environment.

Right. So it sounds like doing this one on one and being very sensitive to what you need to share and kind of calling out the elephant in the room, but doing it in a way where you're seeking understanding.

Exactly. And this is something I tell people to do in difficult conversations in general. So if I'm feeling emotional or if I'm feeling. If I'm feeling hungry and I'm edgy, I'll let people know at the beginning of the conversation and I'll Tell people why. And sometimes the reason why has nothing to do with, with them, but I don't want them to think it does. And so because that emotional leakage comes out, so that's good to do in general, not just in these situations.

Yeah. So I guess this all boils down as to having skills to connect. That's what all of this is about. And so you've hit on some of these skills organically during our conversation. Are there other strategies that we should keep in mind?

You know, I think it would be best not to over complicate it because I think it's really, really easy to overcomplicate it. I've done before I opened my firm and practiced law and served as a mediator and now as the director of the American Negotiation Institute. Before all that, I did some health policy work with Ohio State and part of that included the psychological aspects when it comes to health and implicit bias. That led me to do some implicit bias trainings with police officers and other organizations. And, and it's a really tough issue. And when you dig deeply into the research and the science, it can become very, very overwhelming. And you can you honestly, if you look hard enough, you can find bias everywhere. Everybody is biased in some way. Everybody's biased. And I think it's good to just have a simple awareness that bias exists and bias exists in everyone and just know that. And that's it. If you, if you are become, if you are hyper aware of it, you might become paranoid and that might be more, more detrimental than positive. So really when it comes to especially this issue when dealing with bias, the simple acronym of keep it simple is the is the best way to do it because overcomplicating it can lead to bad results because you won't be able to be as in the moment as you need to be in order to truly connect with the person and from of you.

Okay, great. Are there any resources individuals can look up or review to help them better understand their biases?

Yeah, I think the best resource out there is Thinking Fast and Slow. Again, the name is Thinking Fast and Slow. It's a book by Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel prize winning behavioral economist. I believe he's a behavioral economist. But that book, book is great and it is exhaustive and very, very long. Very long. If you read the first 10% of that book, you're good. That's really all you need. But that is the best synopsis of that and it even better if you're like, well, Kwame, you just recommended a 600 page book. That's not going to happen. Maybe you could just look up a lecture or something that he has done based on the book Thinking Fast and Slow. But I think that's. That is the number one resource that you can go to when it comes to implicit bias.

Has he done a TED Talk or anything like that?

I am not sure.

Okay.

I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't, I can't speak on that. I don't know. I'm sure a lot of people have cited him in their TED talks.

Right. You know, this has been phenomenal conversation. You know, one other thing comes to mind is how early do you think we recognize that bias exists in our.

This is the scary part. If you're not well versed in psychology or you don't have the opportunity to learn about implicit bias or just the way the mind works, you might never know. You might never know. And that's the thing. Because the biases exist beneath the surface. They just influence heavily the decisions that we make. And that's the scary part about it. Because here's the thing. When it comes to the human mind. I'll just go ahead, go ahead and dig into the Thinking Fast and slow literature. There are two ways of processing system one and system two. System one is automatic processing very, very fast. So try and finish this, this sentence. It's a tough one. Mary had a little lamb. Yeah. Was that hard? No, that's automatic. And you probably already started thinking lamb as I started saying that. And so that's something a nurse rhyme that's so ingrained deeply within our psyche that you didn't need to think deeply about it. It just happened automatically. Snap of a finger. That's where bias lives. But system two, processing is slower processing. That's where you need to actually think about something in order to answer it appropriately or interpret the situation appropriately. That's going to be where you can actually work through biases. But, but the thing is that most people make decisions with their emotions and then they subsequently justify the decisions that they make with their logic. So system one makes the decision and then it's system two's job to interpret it. So think about a sloppy politician. So a sloppy politician who has all of these faux pas, and then the politician has a public relation specialist who comes in at the end and explains it away. That's how your brain works. So your system one is really the one making the majority of decisions. But then we think that it's logical because if asked to defend the decision we make, our brains can come up with a Rational sounding explanation. So that's how you can live your life without knowing whether or not you have a bias. Because your brain will always come up with an answer that sounds good to you.

That's interesting and kind of scary.

Yes, right?

Yes. Most things in psych psychology are so.

Kwame, it sounds like knowing is half the battle when it comes to the biases that we have within ourselves. And those are some great tips for us to think about as you know, we move forward and figure out how we can be more effective in conversations with individuals.

Thank you. Yeah, knowing is half the battle. And really in these situations you, you have to fight yourself because a lot of times you're, you're quick automatic answer or your quick automatic perception is wrong. And so you recognize that feeling, come to the conclusion, and then immediately question your conclusion to see where it potentially came from. And if you can justify it, if you can justify it, roll with it. If you can't, then it was probably a bias, some sort of bias that led you to that quick conclusion. But yeah, awareness is a critical element of it. Well, perfect. It was great having you both on the show. But before you go, can you tell the audience of how they about how they can get in touch with you and some resources you have?

Yeah, absolutely. Kwame, thank you so much for having us on your podcast today. This has been phenomenal. For those of you who are interested, you can follow me on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And it's Atlas park co. And my website is the same atlasparkco.com okay.

And for those of you who are interested in knowing more on the Napa Diversity and inclusion initiative, please join in on the conversation on LinkedIn at diversify. That's diversify ending in an ikedin for me personally. You can follow me at Daphnejo on Twitter or find out more@pioneerwealth.com enjoy talking to you, Kwame.

My pleasure. You two have a great day and thanks again for coming on the show.

Thank you.

Thank you.

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