Understanding Values and Identity: Embracing Nuances in Negotiations with Beth Fisher-Yoshida

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Beth, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much. Kwame, thank you for inviting me to come on your show.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. You come highly recommended by multiple people, so you're able to join us.

I'm flattered. I'm flattered.

So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. My main role is a professor of practice at Columbia University, and I direct a master's program in negotiation and conflict resolution. Plus, when you stick around any place long enough, you take up other kinds of leadership roles, which I have. And then in addition to the university, I do consulting and coaching, mostly in the area of coaching women on negotiation and also helping organizations that have conflict, which I know many organizations say, oh, no, that's not us. But yes, it is.

I was wondering which organization says they don't have conflict? I think everybody does.

They do, but, you know, it's not where they want to lead with that. And especially working internationally, people have different relationships to the word conflict. So you have to think about how do I need to frame this in a way that won't just build a wall but would actually allow them to listen and engage in something that just helps them work better together.

Oh, that makes sense. And out of curiosity, have you written any good books lately?

Oh, yeah. Thank you for that plug. Yes, I wrote my book New Story, New A Woman's Guide to Negotiation. It came out in January. And I'll also offer a plug that I am willing to offer. Free coaching sessions for somebody who writes me or people who write for me. A review on Amazon and let me know. Right, you have to let me know so I know that the review is done. And you may want to know something about why the book came to be. Sometimes I get asked that question. I look for patterns in relationships and patterns in communication, patterns in behavior. And I was noticing that there was a different kind of pattern with women I was working with in classes, educating or in workshops or coaching that differed. And I wanted to know more about it. And usually it was a pattern where women were holding themselves back from really fully performing and being effective as negotiators. I said, what is this about? So I looked at the existing research and there's a lot of good research out there by a lot of women who are doing stuff, and men too, who've been doing research on gender and negotiations. And then I realized that it's so contradictory. Somebody says up, somebody says down. So I said, oh my goodness, this is not helping because I, I don't know how to use it. I can understand the research, but how do I use it to work with people? And that's always my M.O. so I think, okay, let me interview women myself because what I really want to know is not only what's wrong or what's not working well, I want to know what are the strategies and tactics they're using that they find effective. And I want to be able to share that on a bigger platform like a book. So I interviewed literally hundreds of women and I was classifying them as like Junior in their career under 5 years or mid career, 10 to 15 or 25 years and more, even doing a separate study with women in STEM professions because that's more male dominated. And I thought maybe they have some different strategies and tactics and some are there. And then I said, wow, there are so many good tips I wanted to know that I wanted to share with other people. So then the book came to be, and one of the things I'm proud of in the book, which I really wanted to focus on and I've been getting good feedback on, is that it's very practical, which means you can pick it up, find something to use and use it and go out there and do something with it. I didn't want it to sit on a desk or maybe a coffee table and collect dust. So I. I don't think it's doing that. So I'm thankful for that.

That is great. Yeah, we appreciate that. It's an important piece of work and it's really important, again, to put out this type of material and give people the practical tools that they need to achieve the outcomes that they want to get. And listeners, make sure you check this out. We're gonna have a link to the book in the description, so make sure you give Beth some love and leave a review. That offer is significant.

Okay. I prefer good reviews if anybody's interested.

Yes, we should clarify. Five star. Good review.

O.

That's great. So, Beth, I am excited for this. So before the interview, when we were just chatting, I asked you this question, wanted you to share the answer with the audience. When it comes to negotiation, conflict resolution, and just human interaction in general, what is it that's giving you the most energy right now?

Yeah, what gives me the most energy is sounding small. But really because it's in such stark contrast to what's really happening a lot. It's when people actually slow down and take the time to create the space to really listen and understand other people. And we don't do that enough. We rush to judgment. And especially we just write off people who we think have different views than us. And we don't even know that sometimes, because sometimes we see something about a person and we just create the rest of the person without really knowing them. And that's not really fair to us or to them because we're sort of missing an opportunity to get to know and build a relationship. So when I see people really creating that space and saying, oh, wow, I didn't know that about you, or you know what? I also do whatever it is that you do, or I also had that experience or I also grew up in that kind of a climate. Then I'm like, wow, now, it doesn't mean you change your mind about what you believe. It just means that you get to understand somebody else, you get to be present for somebody else, and you might learn something and actually like the other person, even if you have different beliefs. So seeing that and little glimpses of that, you sort of string them together. And I think we have changed. We just change for the Good.

I agree 100%. And I want to focus in on one of the things that you said. We get A small piece of information about somebody, and then we write them off completely. I want to dig deeper into that. Can you share a bit more on that topic?

Sure. Without broaching the topic of politics, for example. But we all have values that we believe in, and a lot of times we don't even know what those values are. And they come from our upbringing, our culture, society, social media. Today you cannot go anywhere without being affected by social media in some way. Families, education, and so on. So we all have these messages about who we are, who we should be, what's right and what's wrong. And a lot of times we have values, but we don't know what they are until they're violated. And so when somebody does something that you don't agree with, you don't believe in, then you just write them off, as we mentioned, because you think, well, they're just somebody that I can't connect with. What we're losing is the complexity that we each have, the layers of. Of Persona that we each contain. It's not black and white at all. There are so many shades of gray. And I feel like when you see things in the world and you see other people as black and white, it's just so rigid thinking that you're losing that ability to have all of the different nuances that we have and just to build on that in relating it more directly to negotiation and conflict resolution. If you are having a negotiation with somebody, depending on who that person is and where the negotiation is and what the issue is that you're negotiating, a different part of who. Who you are is going to be more prominent in that situation. So if I am the only woman in a group of men, I'm probably going to be more aware of my gender than if I'm sitting in a room with mixed women and men. It's just not going to be as salient to me as when I'm there. When I lived in Japan for many years, I was very aware that I was the only American woman in a group of Japanese people. So I'm also sensitive to that the opposite way. Like when I have a class of students and it's a very diverse group of students who are in the program. I notice if there is one person from a different culture who may be a little bit shy or about being in groups and so on. And so it's nice when people invite them in and all that. And I pay attention to that and try to create those situations where they can be invited in and feel included there. So we do a Lot of injustice by doing that, by writing people off.

Definitely. And when you think about it psychologically, it is unfortunately a predictable response. So in order for us to overcome that, that snap judgment where we write somebody off and we create that distance in many ways have to work against our basic psychology in order to be better humans in these circumstances. So can you talk us through how we can do that?

Yeah. So in the very short amount of time that we have here. Right. I could just give a little glimpse into it because it really is what I consider life work. It's something that you have to continuously explore. It doesn't mean you have to wait your whole life before you see a result. You can see results immediately, but it's constant. Right. So for example, we need to think about where our values and beliefs came from and we need to identify the influences in our lives. So some people may say, oh, there she goes again talking about self awareness. But I think self awareness is critical because a lot of times we don't even realize we're judging people. We just think this is just the normal way of being. And so we need to understand who we are and where did that come from. And then we need to figure out in all of those stories that make up who we are, which ones are really helping us and which ones are getting in our way of being the best we can be. And I like to say grow the stories that really give you strength and are really good and generative. And then I'd like to press the delete button and get rid of the ones that are no good or rewrite them. See if you can rewrite some of those narratives to turn them into strengths. So if I have a story about you should trust people until they do something wrong compared to a story about don't trust anybody because the world's not a safe place. I'm going to live in the world very differently depending on which story I was fed as I was growing up. It's just, do I trust people or not? Do I have an initial instinct that people are good, they just do silly things sometimes, or do I have an instinct, run away and don't get too close until you are sure you can protect yourself and then be close to somebody. People live very differently according to their beliefs.

Hello my friends. I've got a really exciting announcement for you. On August 30, 2023, we're hosting a negotiate anything masterclass in an amazing 28 million dollar residence in New York City. This is a once in a lifetime type of experience. It took A long time for me to do negotiate the deal to get this location. And I'm not sure if or when I'll be able to do it again. Seats are limited. So if you want to make this happen and you want to hang out with me in nyc, check out the link in the description to learn more. You're so right. I love the fact that earlier on, one of the things you said is that a lot of times we're not aware of our values or beliefs unless they're violated. And that is a very scary reality because we might find ourselves in the midst of a difficult conversation, discovering things about ourselves in front of the other person in real time. Right. And it's hard to really master your negotiation skills if you haven't mastered yourself. If you're discovering things about yourself during the conversation, that can be kind of jarring, that can be significant. And I love the fact that you talked about the reality that this is going to be life work, it's going to take time, and we're creating new habits. And really what we're trying to do, if you think about it again, psychologically, we're trying to rewire our brain using neuroplasticity. For decades we've been thinking the same way, operating the same way, not just in terms of the beliefs that we have, but also the way that we confront those values or maybe challenge or question those values or not during these conversations. So it's going to take some deliberate effort to retrain our brain to do what you're telling us to do.

Absolutely. It's interesting because I was talking to somebody about this before too, and a lot of times people say to me, oh, but it's so uncomfortable, comfortable to do that. And I say, well, are you comfortable now with the way things are? No. It's so uncomfortable. Okay, you have two situations. You're uncomfortable the way it is and you're uncomfortable to make a difference. So here's the difference. Being uncomfortable the way things are, they're only going to get worse. They're not going to. They're going to stay the same or get worse, but they're not going to get better this way. If you're uncomfortable trying to do something different, at least there's hope that you are making a difference in going forward and in talking about the brain and our neuroplasticity. And they say, like neurons that wired together, I say, let's talk about rewiring the whole attitude towards conflict, the whole attitude towards negotiation, because people are so conflict and averse and also Scared of negotiation. Many times they build it up to be this tremendous monster of a thing, so they shy away from it. I say, just the fact that you show up or just the fact that you prepare for it or open to engaging with it. Right. Right away, you've already started to rewire because you're going to commend yourself. And I believe in that. Commending yourself, appreciating yourself, really rewarding yourself. Because a lot of times, if we keep running away, it's not going to work. And I remember, I tell people this sometimes. I say, you know, I think when I was younger, I was really shy, and they're like, oh, yeah, Beth, right? I'm like, no, all right, let's just go with this. Maybe I was shy and I wouldn't let myself not go to an event or not enter a room because I thought. I don't know why I thought this as a little kid, but I remember thinking, if I don't challenge this now, it's going to grow and get bigger, it's going to get worse. I don't know where that idea came from, but I remember having that as a young person. So, of course, I still get butterflies when I'm doing a conflict resolution issue or I have a conflict with somebody or I'm doing a negotiation. But I think that's like, good energy. You just have to channel that so that it's not flat. So the myth about never getting anxious about things or never being nervous or worried. No, I mean, I think there's a little bit of that in there, which is not a bad thing.

Yeah, definitely. There's a term for the people who never get anxious and never worry. That's called psychopath.

Okay, let's put it out there.

So you retaining a little bit of your humanity is not a bad thing. And I think it's so important to share this message, because when we are having these difficult conversations, and they might look at somebody like you, who's very experienced and well known in the field, and they say, oh, I could never be like Beth. It's like she doesn't feel this. No, you feel it, but you recognize that the feeling is actually sometimes a sign that you're having a conversation of consequence that matters. It's not a signal that you should pull away or that something's necessarily wrong.

That's nice what you said, that conversation of consequence that matters. Absolutely. That's great. Yeah. And I think to touching on your humanity, it also, I feel, helps me connect to other people more because I experienced some of that. So I can understand that. And also when I'm working with students or coaching people on their negotiations or trying to intervene in an organization that has a lot of conflict in it, it's not that I completely feel what they're feeling, but I can understand and relate to the discomfort and the pain and the sickness. I mean, sometimes organizational conflict, which does not get addressed soon enough, becomes really toxic, and people are. They really get sick. They get sick physically, emotionally, and it's just a really bad environment. So I feel that for them, even though I'm not actually experiencing what they are.

Absolutely. And I think going to the reality of toxicity in the workplace, we have the cultural element within the workplace. There might be a toxic culture, maybe overworking, not being respectful to your teammates, those type of things. But then you also have the interpersonal side where the conflicts will add to the toxicity of the culture. And sometimes you find yourself just marinating in this stew of toxicity for so long that you don't even realize what it feels like to be well anymore.

That's right. And I think one of the biggest things I just thought about that happens is a lot of times people do not feel supported by their organizations because, as I mentioned, the conflict goes on for so long. And when I'm called in very often, I'll do an assessment and I'll ask the question, when did this start? And when people tell me, well, five years ago. And I'm like, five years ago. But it really happens that way. And I understand one year. I understand that you make different efforts, you try to do different things, and it takes time. Five years. I don't understand. You know, that's like, there's something more serious going on in the system to allow people to work in that kind of a context. And that's why they feel abandoned. They don't feel taken care of, and they get sick. And then they have an attitude of, why should I want to do anything for the organization? So you lose the commitment, and at the most, you have is just compliance with. Just fulfilling the tasks. Yeah, it's unfortunate. So thank God I don't have that work environment.

Good. This is really important for us to discuss. When you think about going back to what we were talking about before, with the willingness to connect with people and understand them, despite the fact we might see the world in a very, very different way. Let's say, if we're in a conversation with somebody and we start to get that feeling of resistance within ourselves, and we might be surprised in the middle of the conversation, when it comes up so vehemently in the moment. How do you trigger empathy when everything inside of you wants to do the opposite of empathizing?

Yeah. So I'm thinking of two reactions to that. One is that you sort of go to that meta level, but you have to have the self awareness to be able to do that, to say, okay, what's going on? Why am I feeling this way right now? Because you can feel, if you're attuned to yourself, you can feel the rigidity and the, your heart rate change. Everything changes. You can feel it physically, I believe. So you're saying, okay, what's going on here? So you can't of course stay in that metaverse. You come back down and say, okay, I need to do something different. I don't like that. Like, I don't like being that feeling. That's my personal thing. I've been doing self awareness work for a long time. I'm sure I still have a lot to learn too. The second thing is, I always recommend to people have a question or two available, like in your pocket, so that when things get into those moments where you lose your scent or you get off, something happens to deter you off your course. Then you ask a question, like an open question, like, whoa, okay, that's interesting. Or I hadn't thought about that, I didn't anticipate that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? You're doing two things there. You're buying yourself time to recompose yourself, to recenter yourself, to get attuned to what's really going on there. And you're also gaining more information. And in that information you might learn something that you had not known before. But I think it does go back to the self awareness and you need to prepare yourself so that you can be in the moment responsive. If you're not prepared, everything's wash over and overwhelm you. So you're really not going to be your best self in the negotiation.

Yes. Oh, this is good. So first of all, again, preparation to the rescue. The single best thing you can do to improve your negotiation skills is prepare. And it helps you to be more nimble in the moment because you're going to find yourself in these tough situations. You'll already have some questions you can go to. And I'm really glad that you pointed out one of the hidden benefits of asking questions that people don't fully appreciate. It's buying time. It gets you time to think while giving you the gift of information. Asking those questions, especially when you're not sure what to say, or you're feeling a high level of emotional response. Reactivity in the situation is going to be one of your superpowers in the moment.

Yeah. People say too, and I felt this as well, that even a question, a good question already is like an intervention. You're changing the dynamics just by asking a question. And part of it is because the way you ask the question is asking the person to think about things in a way he or she may not have thought about it before. So you're framing over your inquiry into something like, oh, like you do stop them in their moment. So you're changing the dynamics of the flow, which is a good thing too, because if you get caught up and you're getting all emotional about things or you're getting rigid or resistant, then boo, boo, boo, and suddenly it's over and you're like, whoa, what just happened? So you're slowing down the pace, getting the question and recomposing yourself. So, yeah, I definitely support good questions.

Yes. Oh, no. This is really good. I want to go into what you said about changing dynamics, because if we think about this as a flowchart, if we want to be more technical or if we want to be whimsical, it could be a journey where we're going through and we have a decision that we can make. We can go one way or we can go another way, down one path versus another path. And I want you to really paint a picture. Let's say we're having a conversation and somebody says something that you find offensive or reprehensible, or you disagree with it, conflicts with your values, whatever it happens to be. So we have one person who responds with curiosity, and then the conversation proceeds down one path, and then we have another person who responds with a direct challenge. I disagree. And here's why you're wrong. Can you compare those two pathways for us?

It almost seems so obvious. So the person who confronts and says, no, you're wrong is just in this power struggle and super competitive, and nobody's 100% wrong. And you haven't really heard the person who's just rejecting them, I think it's only going to escalate, or everybody just slams their fists on the table and walks out without making any kind of progress there. If you slow down the process and respond with curiosity, and I think it has to be genuine because people can detect if it's not, then you want to say something genuinely, even if you haven't bought into their point of view. It doesn't matter. But curiosity about where did this come from? Right? Curious about why are you even saying that. Then it does change a flow. One of the things that happens in a negotiation is your opponent, right? In a negotiation, if you want to frame it in that way, may change the pace. So something that you're not comfortable with. And when the pace picks up and goes really fast, it's not giving you the time you need to think. So a really good strategy is asking that question to slow it down, not just for you, but to slow down the pace so you can regain. Now, if you did prepare and you do have a plan, it allows you to revisit where am I in that plan? And to help you get back on course, even if you don't stay that way. And maybe you shifted direction and that's fine too. But like you mentioned about the agility before, if you've prepared, you're able to do that. And so you're able to slow down the pace because pace is a big deal. I just wanted to add one more thing to your two choices there. If when you said somebody says something reprehensible to you, if you're feeling, and this is especially true, I said for women, if you're feeling threatened in some way, either emotionally, psychologically or physically, I would say to end the conversation at that time and exit. And if you revisit it, it's going to be revisited in a different way, not in that one on one dynamic because you feel unsafe. I remember a few weeks ago I was giving a book talk and somebody asked me, when is no a no? Which is a great question right Now. Normally we say getting past no or talking about negotiation a no was really an invitation to do something else. And I remember I just stopped and I said, well, what do you mean by no? Because here I had the two different classes. Like if it's a no where you're feeling all those threats and danger, I said, you end it and leave. There's no negotiation anymore because you're scared and you're really feeling threatened. But if it's a no where you're feeling safe and it's just no of the challenge to a budget or a purchase or an agreement, then you can challenge that too. But you have to use your own sensitivity to know what that no really means.

I appreciate that breakdown too, because you're right, there are different types of scenarios, right? Because we can understand how in a negotiation, somebody offering resistance and saying no is part of the dance. We anticipate that. But if somebody's safety is at risk. No means no. Flat out, there's no negotiating that. I think that's really important. And I think it would be pretty clear for the audience in terms of when somebody's physical safety is in danger. But can you give some examples of when your emotional safety is in danger to the point where you feel like you need to exit the conversation?

Yeah. If you are feeling, let's say, for example, bullied by somebody to the point where it feels like emotionally threatening to. I mean, people say things sometimes and you feel, well, that wasn't a very nice comment. Right. But you don't necessarily feel bullied. I'm not saying every negative comment equals bullying. It's just a feeling that you might have. Right. So if you're feeling that you're being bullied or cornered or kind of like being ridiculed, we might say emotional abuse there and you're feeling that maybe this is a pattern and maybe you're trying to turn the story, trying to change the conversation, it's not happening. The person continues to badger you in some way, then I would say it doesn't mean you have to run out of the office. You can just say, you know, I think we need to end the conversation at this time. I think this is not a good conversation. We're not in a good place. Whatever you feel comfortable saying to signal to the other person that I'm not just running away, I'm leaving because this is not safe or comfortable for me anymore. And actually when I was writing the book, the Me Too movement was very strong. As I was thinking about the book, I kept saying, oh, well, I have to have this in there and I have to have that in there. You know, the longer you take to write something, the more things happen you put in there. And I didn't want to write at home, so. But the Me Too movement was happening. I'm like, wow, I cannot include something about this in the book. So I wrote a chapter on negotiating compromising situations and I did make that distinction about if you are feeling threatened, then leave and you have different exit strategies. But if feeling okay about it, then yeah, you can continue on. And the other thing I was pointing out too is that when you cut yourself off from certain people because they are threatening to you, it's a really tough situation because you're also potentially cutting yourself off for professional growth. So it's this double sided, right? Double edged sword. Because if a person, let's just say, for example, if you're a woman and there's a man and he has A lot of power in the organization, makes a lot of decisions and can really decide your fate in the organization, so to speak, your career path. But you don't feel comfortable with him, and he's out with the boys, you know, maybe having a beer now and then at the bar or golfing. Whatever. Whatever it is you have to think about. Okay by me not having any communication with this person, I'm losing some possibilities. So how can I figure out a way to advance myself? Maybe I need a different mentor in the organization. Maybe I just need to find different strategies, because I can't just cut it off and say, well, that's it. No, there have to be other ways. Maybe I would be recognized by this person with somebody else, so I'm being supported. So there have to be other kinds of considerations and strategies because you don't want to cut yourself off completely, but you don't want to engage with somebody you don't feel safe with either.

Oh, this is great. And first of all, I appreciate the fact that you included that in your book. I'm not sure if I know of any other negotiation book that has explicitly addressed that. And. But it's so necessary, too, because one could find themselves in a compromising position, and maybe they've never been in this situation before. Knowing what to say and do in that moment, considering all of the complexities of the interaction, is almost impossible. It's really important for us to have a playbook. So I just want to say appreciate that.

And because the book is focused on women, it doesn't mean women are the only ones who feel that way. There are lots of ways of feeling unsafe in different kind of contexts. And you need to know how to take care of yourself in those moments. That's really critical.

Absolutely. Yes. And I think this brings up a really important point. Your comfort isn't just emotional, that's substantive, like how you are feeling in the moment that matters. And I think sometimes people feel as though they need the permission to cut themselves out of a compromising position, because one of the conversations that often comes up in the trainings that I do is when somebody's being bullying or abusive verbally in these kind of conversations. How do I exit the conversation while still saving face? Because I don't want them to feel as though I'm weak or I can't handle it. Can you speak to that a little bit, too?

Yeah. I was thinking about this when I was younger. I think I would more likely stay because of those reasons. Right. As I got older, I said, no, I'M not staying there. What you might want to do is just say something. You know what? I'd really like to have a break. Why don't we just take a short break and you take a break, leave that space, right? You leave that space already, you're feeling better, whatever, and just think through what you want to do. And if you go back to the space, I mean, you should go back after the 10 minute break, whatever it is, and if you're not feeling good. So, you know, I was reflecting on our conversation. I think it's better we just close it here and maybe revisit it another time. Or you can say, because maybe you've regained your safety and realized, well, maybe I was misunderstanding. What. Let me give the guy another chance. I'll ask a question. You can do any of those things once you feel better about the situation, but you can just ask for a break. That doesn't really show that you have thin skin or that you're not worth the person taking a break for. It just means I'm taking care of myself. So you're symbolizing and you're signaling to the person like, I know myself and I'm taking care of myself. And that also could be a good reflection on you as well.

Absolutely. I love this. And you've given really practical examples that we can put into play. And then you've also given people the license to make a read on their own, because you're right, there could be situations where we misread the situation. And then there are situations where we think, hmm, let me give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I was wrong. And then you go back to the conversation and you say, oh, I was right, this is a problem. Exactly. Yeah. And again, just remembering the value of your comfort, if you don't feel like doing a deal, that's a good enough reason not to do the deal. If you don't feel comfortable in an organization or in a relationship or in a negotiation, that's a good enough reason to leave. And we have to really honor that within ourselves.

I think I learned something about that, like from living in Japan. In the US we're very word dependent. Use your words, tell me how you feel. And in Japan, there's a lot more, like intuition. You have to get to know people better. So here also in the US we have contracts for everything. You sign a contract, you sign a contract. And there, I'm not saying they don't have contracts, but it's also been said, if I have to sign a contract, then I can't trust you, of course they will sign a contract. But it's a whole symbolization about if I have to put it in writing up front before we get to know each other and come to an agreement, that's not worth it. That's the same thing. If you're not comfortable in the negotiation, how is it going to be to do business with that person afterwards? I mean, you really going to want to continue to be in relationship with that person and have to see that person repeatedly? Probably not. So it's also a good warning. It's like almost a warning in your head screaming like, no, get away from there. And you have to listen to that.

Absolutely. And that's one of the toughest things, because you have to honor yourself and listen to that. And sometimes when you're listening to the way that you're feeling, that feeling may not be easy to articulate with words. And then we almost feel like, the only way I can justify ending this is if I can articulate it it. And this year I'll go ahead and say it. One of my New Year's resolutions. I never do resolutions, but this year I'm doing it. Well, I'll give you the fun one. The first one is, I'm not checking email anymore. So no more email. So that's a good one. But the one I was thinking about is my goal is to be less tolerant. I realize I have a very long fuse and I can let a lot of things pass, and sometimes I stay in bad situations just because I can't articulate why I don't feel good about it. But now it's just really simple. It's a vibe check. Now I just don't feel good. Well, why don't you feel good? I don't know, and I don't care to explore it. We can move on.

Wow, that's great, though. That's a good learning to respect that feeling that you have.

Yeah, and it's liberating, too, because sometimes we sit there for days, weeks, maybe months, or in some of the examples of the toxic situation years and question ourselves, like, why do I feel so bad? I don't know. You feel bad because of this scenario. You should end it. And you have the power to do that.

Yeah. I think we get too timid saying, well, if I don't stick it out, what happens? And I need this job, and so on. So there are situations that are hard to just walk away from without some backup. And a lot of times we do feel kind of like trapped. And that's a Terrible feeling to have when you feel trapped and then you have to put up with it. Some people, like, I don't care. And then they react too quickly without really thinking about, well, what did I just do? I just walked out of a really good situation. So you have to really think about it. And again, it all goes back to self awareness. But knowing who you are and knowing why you feel the way you do, being in touch with yourself and you understand your feelings and your reactions. And if you have a gut instinct that something's not right, then I would trust your gut and say something's not right. And then you explore afterwards why first get away from it and then explore.

Bingo. And I think one last thing too, is that. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this too, Beth. When we think about it through standard negotiation parlance, we have batna best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Like you said there, sometimes we feel like we need to stay because we feel like we need the job. And when you think back to Jim Kemp with his book Start with no, he says neediness is one of the worst things you can feel at the negotiation table. And this goes beyond just negotiation strategy. We have to also think about life strategy too. What is it that we can do with the way that we're designing our lives to give us more options so when we run into situations like this, we don't feel like we are tied to this as this person, this situation, or this organization as our only source for financial support. If we feel like we have other options, then it makes it easier for us to set those boundaries too.

Yeah, back in the day, I don't think it's as prevalent now when you have these like one company towns. Right. And I think then you had to work for that one company. But today with online work, remote work, I mean, you could really work anywhere. So I guess what comes to mind right now is the whole idea about self respect. And that has to be first. And so if that's first and you say, if this person is not respecting me or this organization is not respecting me, it's not a fit. And I have other options because you're not going in there only having explored that one option, you may like that option the best, but you may have other options and there may be surprises that something you didn't think was as great could end up being even better. But I think if you start out with self respect, then you won't allow yourself to be disrespected, so you won't put yourself in those situations.

Love it. Beth, this was great. This is great, Tommy.

I enjoyed it, too.

Yes. Hopefully we can have you back on. And before you go, please let the listeners know again about the book, your offer with the reviews, and how they can get in touch with you.

All right, I'll hold it up, but some people like visuals, too. New story, New Power. A Woman's Guide to Negotiation. It's available at major booksellers. And what I would appreciate, which is something in a few, too, is if you read my book, write a positive review on Amazon, let me know, and then I will provide, if you're interested, a free coaching session.

This is incredible. What a generous offer. Listeners, listeners. I want thousands of reviews.

Right. Crash the system.

Exactly. No, Beth, this is great. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Kwame. I really appreciated it. Thank you.

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