Unlearning Silence With Elaine Lin Hering

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Elaine, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Yes, and we are delighted to have you. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

I am a lawyer turned conflict management professional, which my family says I don't even know what that means other than you tell us how we should be having difficult conversations, but essentially helping people have those difficult conversations, figuring out how to actually negotiate, figuring out how to build that skill as a leader, as a team, and really just make your organization work.

Impressed with how succinct that was for a lawyer? Usually we're more verbose.

I didn't even need the six minutes.

That's incredible. This is great. And so, listeners, every time before an episode, I always ask the guest, what is it that is giving you energy? And again, just like the introduction, very succinct. No hesitation. We all have a voice. Just that concept. So, Elaine, when you say we all have a voice, tell us what that means to you and why it's so important.

We all have voice is basically what I've been learning over the last Couple of years. Because I think for so many of us, particularly those who carry subordinated identities, right, you're the minority in a majority space. You're the only female. You're the only black, Asian. Fill in the blank person. It doesn't actually feel like you have a voice. You're there to perform what the company, what the team, what the leader wants you to do. And we forget that we actually do have a voice. And then we go home, and your loved ones, you know, do you really have a voice with them? Or you're just trying to make them happy? And so for me to step back and think, wait, I actually have a voice? What would I do differently if I believed that? What would I do differently if I knew that in my bones? And how would that cause everyone around me to have to change, too? So that's the experiment.

So let's. Let's break this down even more simply for the listeners, because when we're talking about you, we have a voice. We're not talking about the ability to make sound, reverberate through the air and communicate. Right. There's something deeper. Let's really paint a vivid image before we move on. So what is the deeper meaning behind. We have a voice.

We all have unique thoughts, insights, expertise, and perspective. Let's just break that down based on where you sit. If you are working with a team, let's say they're on the east coast of the United States. You are on the West Coast. You actually have a different perspective because of where you sit. And because of that, you see things that they don't. And so often, I think we're reduced to. What's our job title? What's our function? Oh, you're just the lawyer in here. So don't you comment about strategy. Right. Or our marketing. Go to market, you know, abilities. But we, as unique human beings, have thoughts, insights, perspectives of our own, and that's just our thoughts. I'd take voice further to say voice is how we move through the world, and each of us is unique. Only you can be you, Kwame. Only I can be me. And I don't know about you, but I've spent so much of my time trying to be someone else, trying to be who I thought the world needed me to be or who the job needed me to be. After all, that's what I was paid to do versus I, Elaine Lynn Herring, actually have unique thoughts that could help someone else. And what I realized as I was facilitating workshops on negotiation and having difficult conversations was there are a lot of Me's a lot of people who are thinking, is this all there is to the world, to my job, to my work? I'd say no. I think we each have the ability to solve different problems, to show up in the world, to be present for the people we love. That impacts the world and makes the world the one that we want.

You're so right. One of the things that you said when you said we have a voice, but we're trying to be somebody else, and so there are different levels of recognition. So we might just sit there and be completely silent for a little bit, and then we say, you know what? I have a voice. When we first share that voice, we're sharing somebody else's voice, not our own voice. And so there are levels to it. First of all, say something if you want to say something. Then. The second thing is being able to be comfortable enough in your authenticity to share your voice, not just what you think other people want to hear from you.

Absolutely. And the reason I think we all have a voice is so profound, is because we all have learned silence. And this is what my book is on. So plenty more to say there. But we have learned when we need to be quiet, when we need to edit ourselves out. Because you having a thought and sharing it doesn't mean the people in that room, if you're even in the room, are gonna hear it, gonna like it, gonna take it. And so there's good reason why we have not used our voices, have not shown up as our authentic selves. Feel like authenticity. It feels like a luxury good for the people who have power or who already accepted. And so the question then becomes, how do we create the spaces that you and I and everyone around us can actually have that same luxury? Good to just be us, to say what we think without having to worry about the blowback, about the retaliation, about the cost that we have to incur.

I think most of our listeners can hear what you're saying and say, yes, I agree with that. My brain has comprehended that which you have said, and we know that's not enough. Right. One of the things that you said is that it's not just knowing it. Your term was feeling it in your bones. So in your experience, what is it that takes somebody from that cognitive, intellectual understanding of this to actual implementation of it?

I love that you called that out because it's so visceral.

Right.

Our emotional reaction, our reptilian brain, is going to get us every time if we don't feel it in our bones. Short answer, experimentation.

Right.

You got to try. You got to try because all the people around you can tell you it ad nauseum. You and I can say, it doesn't really matter if we don't feel it. And our lived experience is going to take over almost every time over cognitive rationale. So what do I mean by experimentation? I'm not saying go to your boss and tell them what you really think about them right now, right? If you've got feedback like, oh, you gotta really up your game because you're making life for everyone on this team. Horrible, don't start there. But for me, my experiment was in a cab. I had just landed in Seattle, right? You know, you travel through the airports. It's the Pacific Northwest. I'm like stuck in traffic and I'm in the back of this taxi cab and it's like hot, sweaty, stifling. I try to click the window down to get some fresh air. Doesn't work. And I'm sitting there thinking, do I ask the cab driver whether they can open the window? I mean, this is literally how basic. And maybe some of the listeners are like, you can't even do that, seriously. But for me, I was taught to not take up space. I didn't think I could ask, right? Like, for me, be a good little Asian girl. You're not supposed to ask for what you need. You just take what you can get and be, be thankful for it. So I'm sitting in the back of the cab, I look at the GPS and it's like, okay, 22 minutes. I can survive that. It's not that big a deal to get fresh air. And then I see the red and there's more traffic and it's 32 minutes. I'm like, maybe I'll ask. And I literally do the calculation in my head of I'm never going to see this person again. So it doesn't really matter if they're mad at me. The likelihood that they're going to pull over and throw me in a ditch, that's pretty low. We're in an urban environment, on the freeway. I mean, you laugh, but this is literally negotiation with my myself. So my calculation from that was, okay. This is a pretty low stakes context in which to experiment. So I'm like, sir, do you mind opening the window? It's a little stuffy in here. And without saying anything, he pressed a button, the window opened. And I think it's that moment that I come back to every time of, wow, I have a voice like, I can make the window come down when the button is not working when I try to press it. How did I do that? By actually expressing a need and making a request.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

And so I've had to unlearn the silence that told me or made me believe that I didn't have a voice in the first place. But it's those small wins under your belt when you're experimenting that make you think, yeah, okay, next time I'm at Starbucks and the barista writes down the wrong name, like, maybe I'll tell them my, my real name, maybe not. But I at least get to choose when I use my voice and choose. And if I wanted to use my voice, I know I have it.

Absolutely. So many good things to experience to dig into here, Elaine. So first to the listeners, do not trivialize this because I still do this, because for you all, you might not, maybe new listeners might not know, but I'm a recovering people pleaser. That doesn't leave you. That is who you are and you need to actively work against it when the time comes up. So I'm, I do the exact same thing to this day, Elaine. So it's like a two factor test. So sometimes, you know, I might want to say something and I make the strategic decision not to say something. Okay, that's cool. You can do that sometimes. But if there is something that I want to say, and then immediately I feel like that wave of anxiety, that fear. So for me, I feel it, the adrenaline just permeating through my chest. And then I say, well, that's fear. Got to say something now. And so that's the rule. Like whenever I feel that fear of speaking up and using my voice, that's my rule, is I have to say it no matter how trivial or uncomfortable it is. So if somebody gets the order wrong, oh, I could eat it. It's still calories. No, no, no, I'm going to say it because my body showed fear. I need to Work against that all the time. Because then if we say, oh, this is trivial, just let it go by. Okay, so what you're saying is that this little practice opportunity is too little. And don't worry, you're going to show up for the super bowl when you can't show up for practice. Are you kidding me? And so a lot of times what happens is we just intellectualize this to the point of not taking action. And I know that there was a wave of anxiety for a lot of people listening because they wanted to get you to give them some kind of really, you know, heady type of thing that they need to do. Sit down in a corner, think, get my book and all those types of things. They should still get your book, but in the meantime, they should still be taking action because that's really what it needs to be. Just don't overthink this. Take action and start practice using the voice.

Totally. And take action in low risk, low cost settings. Right. Where you know, you can stomach the cost, because that's how we build reps. That's the practice. So I'm curious whether it's gotten easier for you over time.

It has, it has. Yeah. And I think there are a couple of things, because I have to be. I recognize doing these types of things have helped, but then also I have to realize that there have been circumstances that have changed as well. So this reminds me of one of the studies. I'm a psych nerd. I just love reading up on these studies. So there was this one study where they created a scenario where they primed people and triggered them to feel either more powerful or less powerful. And then they put the people in a room and they put an uncomfortable fan on them where it would make them uncomfortably cold. And so the people who were triggered to be less powerful, they just sat there and froze to death. But the people who were triggered to be more powerful, they just got up and turned the fan off. Right. And so I have to recognize too that, yes, there's been a series of experiments that have been going on in my journey of overcoming being a people pleaser, being more assertive and things like that. And as I've gotten better and more skilled, my confidence has increased. But also just in terms of, like, my life, I've become more successful, so I have more feelings of power. And that will impact my willingness to stand up and have a voice because there are less things that can threaten me. So I think there's a lot of things that tie into that.

Absolutely. And then I take that One step further to say, I think we often underestimate the power that we have. Power is invisible to those who have it. We focus on the times where we feel helpless. We focus on the times when I wish I were as powerful as them. They are the ones with the real power. Who am I? Nobody compared to them. But it's relative. And so the mistake that we make that I see our clients make is underestimating the power that we do have. Because I, as an employee, can actually make things difficult for everyone around me. Right? That's power. I, with some sort of text messaging or tweeting, can tag Delta Airlines publicly to get things moving. That's power. We forget, I think, and underestimate the power that we do have. It's not to say that there aren't power differentials for sure, but that whether you are just starting out at work or you have been there a long time, if you have been there with institutional knowledge, that is powerful. If you are new and you have a fresh lens, you're bringing that fresh perspective. You can see things that people just cannot see because they have been there for too long. That's also powerful. So what power do we each have that we're just underestimating and not using?

This is so good, because essentially what you're saying is that by having a more objective perspective of our own power, we can trigger ourselves to be more powerful. Because you're not suggesting that we lie to ourselves and say, oh, I'm the king of the world and whatnot. No, it's saying, hey, you do have value. Here are objectively the ways that you have value. And I think a lot of times in the information age, we. We can diminish our own value that we bring to the conversation. So, for instance, it's like, all right, we're surrounded by information all the time. We forget that there's some information that only we have based on our experience, our background, and what we've seen. Google hasn't seen what we've seen.

You know, yes, I would say, yes, we have information, but also how we communicate that information. Right. There are things that people can hear from you that they cannot hear from me, based on how I look, based on where I went to school, based on where I didn't go to school, whatever it is. So each of us is unique, and I think we need each of us in the mix.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's the value of diversity. Right? Everybody has their own background, their own opinion, their own way of doing things, and then we benefit collectively by Putting it all together in a cohesive way.

I was going to say if we can see the value in it. Right. Too often it's like, well, your voice doesn't matter as much because of what school you didn't go to or what job title you don't have, versus you as a thinking, feeling human being with unique experiences have something to offer here. And I want to hear it. Right. I, as your manager, your leader, your colleague, your family member, can we honor what people bring so that we don't continue to silence them?

Yeah, because we have to have a culture that encourages that, the authentic expression of yourself in a meaningful way. And speaking of culture, you mentioned your background as having an impact too. And I think it's really important for us to consider when it comes to our voice that we bring to the table, how society can impact our perception of the value of our voice. So can you speak a little bit more to that too?

Completely. I mean, from which rooms you're invited into. And I have spent far too much of my life and career being the only in the room, the only female, the only person under 50 or 60 years old, the only non white person in a lot of these corporate contexts. And this question of whose voice actually holds weight, whose voice actually has power to link to our earlier conversation is really at play. And it's all of the biases that we hold, all the prejudices we hold, all the assumptions of, oh, well, she's just a woman or she's emotional. So you wouldn't really want to listen to someone who's so emotional, would you? I'm going to let that pause hopefully answer the question.

Oh, it answers it. It answers it. You know what's great about this too? We talked about biases and everybody has biases. If you have a functional br, you have a bias. That's just how brains work.

Totally. It's a heuristic. It's a way of surviving in the world.

Exactly. And sometimes what ends up happening is that we let our assumptions of the biases of other people turn into self fulfilling prophecies for ourselves. So it's like, oh, okay, so I'm young, I'm a minority. Okay. So people don't want to hear from me, so I'm not going to say anything. And then the other person might be like, hey, listen, Elaine, I know she's sharp, I know she's sharp. I wish she would say more, but I don't want to put her on the spot in this conversation. So I guess I should just honor that and let her stay silent. And so there's this weird little meta game that happens that can really hold us back.

This is the story of my life, which is we don't hold those stories and hold ourselves back for no good reason. We didn't just make it up. Right. There is real lived experience. When you raised your hand, got slapped down, when you spoke up and nobody listened, that then makes you believe that those or hold those assumptions, believe that those things might be true. I think there's two things. As if we're talking about a relationship. We're working on my, my side of things. And also what can the people around me do? So for me, I have to constantly remind myself the person I'm talking with is not my old boss, is not my mother, is not, you know, whatever family stuff is coming in here that plays out, it's actually a different person with a different set of stuff. Better or worse, different, unknown. But that's my coaching to myself of is this a different situation or do those things that I learned in the past still apply here? Or how do they apply if they apply? And then for the people around me, like, be explicit. If you want to hear my voice, ask me and then listen, please, and maybe affirm if you really want to take it to the next level. But if you're going to cut me off, you're playing back. And so it's totally a meta level dance with levers on both sides for you and for the people around you.

Great. And you probably saw my big smile when you said it's not my mom. It's like, hey, listen, I don't want to put my story on you, but hypothetically, you know, there are these situation with immigrants, parents who just want you to work and not talk.

So much there.

Yes, yes, yes. Let's. Let's both lay down on the couch.

Well, and also, I don't know about your mother if this is who we're talking about, but I will say part of the challenge for me has been can I let the people around me grow as well so that the mother of 20 years ago is actually not the mother I have today? So if I'm making assumptions about how she's going to show up and not using my voice today because I think she's still mom of 20 years ago. What assumptions and prejudices am I holding against her?

That's. That's 100 true. Oh, this is good.

Your voice does not want to believe that and admit that it's.

It's true though. You're right. Because I mean you know, my. My Caribbean parents, you know, they were super intense, and now they're all soft when they get. When they see my.

I got nothing nice to say right now about that other than I'm so grateful for grandparents. I'm so grateful that they can have a sort of a different stage of life right, where that intensity can fade and they can enjoy it more. And I am so grateful that my kid gets to have that version of Grandma and Grandpa.

That's a great interpretation. I like that. Well, Elaine, this has been amazing. This is great. And I know that your book is not out yet, but just set the stage for the listeners. Tell us about what's the title of the book, what's it going to be about, and what is your hope for it?

The book is called Unlearning Silence. It'll be out by Penguin Random House in 2024. It's about the ways we silence ourselves, silence, the people around us, and what we can all do about it. And the hope with the book is that it helps each of us feel empowered and equipped to actually use our voices when we want to use our voices, and helps us build those communities and families where we feel seen, known, and heard. That's the hope.

This is great. And listen, we are excited to be just a little part of that. Listeners, once that goes live, we will have Elaine back on, but in the meantime, make sure to connect with her on LinkedIn and we will link to her website so you could get in touch with her and learn about the facilitation and the speaking and everything else. So, Elaine, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Oh, this was such a treat. Thank you.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.