Unlocking Persuasion Secrets with Adele Gambardella and Kwame Christian

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Adele, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. Lovely to be here.

Yes, it is. Lovely to have you too, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So my name is Adele Gambrardella and I started out my career as a journalist at George Magazine. So John F. Kennedy Jr's publication, which was a very cool pop culture start to my career. Then after six years in journalism, I went over to the dark side and on Madison Avenue they call pr, launched some of the biggest name brands including Amazon and eBay and 1-800-Flowers and so a lot of names that are dot com legends. It's when I started my career in PR, then after I left Madison Avenue, came to Washington D.C. did some work in politics and lobbying and sort of in the DC firms here, and then started my own agency when I was super young because I couldn't possibly be old enough to have an agency for 18 years. So yeah, that is mostly a PR and crisis communication agency that I founded, co founded with Chip Massey, who's an ex FBI hostage negotiator and also the co author of my book.

Incredible. Well, tell us about the book.

Yeah, yeah. So the book is called Convince Me. See, I'm a good publicist, so I will hold up a copy of it. So go get your copy. The book is a really exciting, very practical primer, really, on how to be convincing, how to be influential and different ways than people probably have ever expected to get this content. It's really a melding of two very weird disciplines, right? Like it's like hostage negotiations, special agent meets publicist, crisis communication expert. And we wrote a book thinking like, hey, we both do the same Thing. And that sounds weird too, right? But we both do the same thing. We're in the business of convincing. And. And so how we do it, how we go about it while is different, and our training is different. The end result is still the same. So convincing strategies don't really change depending on the discipline. It's just implemented in different ways.

I love this. I love the fact that we are crossing disciplines in a way that allows us to pull from both in a meaningful way and then provide actionable resources and guidance to people. And it's a combination I've never seen before. So it's really unique, right?

It is really unique. We've never seen that combination before either. Because usually people who are in, like, Secret Service or like, who are doing work in the FBI, they're not forthcoming with their methodologies, their strategies, their techniques. And so what I did was I really sat down with Chip and I asked him, how do you do this? How is this effective? And then I applied it to business through my business lens and being an entrepreneur for 15 years before I met him, and then we put it all into use. What's interesting, Kwame, is what I found really fascinating is most people do not change their convincing strategies since they were children. And studies show we're pretty much locked into what our convincing strategies are by age six. Six years old, right? So it was like first graders. When you're in first grade, your convincing strategies, they're pretty much locked in. You must have been a very charming, good negotiator. I bet your parents could tell some stories, right? I mean, I know that my kids are super good negotiators. Actually, during COVID my daughter, she was supposedly had school at home, and she's upstairs and she's making a bunch of noise. And it's 8:30, so I'm on some kind of meeting and I'm hearing noise. She comes down with a big bowl of ice cream. And she's like, mama. She's like, here's a bowl of ice cream. I just had one. It was delicious. And I brought one down for you. And I'm like, this is a smart kid, right? Like, how could you be mad at her? She was being considerate. She told you what her crime was. She brought the ice cream down hoping, like, you know, that would, like, convince me to not be so mad at her. And it worked. So she. I think she's like, you know, top level convincing skills, right? Like, I think she's got some of those. But most of us stop. So if you got your way by sulking when you were six. As an executive, you're going to sulk your way into getting people to do what you want if you bully people, kind of same principles apply. But like, I'd love to hear your perspective on this, like from your own experience. Or do you think you were pretty convincing at age 6?

I bet I was in my own way. And it's funny too because I have an 8 year old and a 3 year old now. And so I'm thinking about their negotiation strategies too because Kai, my older one, he is very sweet, very loving, very connected with people and he would, he would just ask questions and he would try make it a win for you. Dominic is very dominant and he will just make demands and he, and then it's always trading for him. You ask him to do something, he doesn't want to do everything. The response is always the same. Two more minutes. And then two more minutes pass. Two more minutes. Ten more minutes pass. Two more minutes. I was like, Dominic, we started this 45 minutes ago. Can we please stop? But yeah, it's just really interesting to see the differences in the personalities. But you're right, it can be really consistent through life.

It is consistent through life. And I have a 9 year old son too who got in trouble in school one day and came home and I was like, Christian, you know what happened at school today? Tell me about it. And he's like, you know what, mom, I think we should focus on what's going to happen tomorrow. Let's not focus on what happened today. I'm like, dang, these kids are good. I mean, like, I mean, I do think some of the kids are super sophisticated because they're learning communication skills and negotiation skills from what they're seeing and hearing. And like the Internet has made that so much more pervasive. Right. But I think one of the things as adults is we don't look at new convincing strategies. It's scary. It's really scary. We've been using the same things that have worked for us where we think work for us with a certain degree of like assurity that we're going to get our way. And so the likelihood that adults will try new convincing strategies is so low because if it doesn't work, what do you always say? You go back to your best friend or you have a conversation afterwards and you're like, ah, that person was a jerk. They just didn't get it. They just didn't understand me. It's not any accountability on our parts that maybe we should have changed our Strategy. We should have changed our approach. We keep going back to the same approach that has worked for us time and time again when really we should be trying these different techniques.

I agree 100%. And now when we think about convincing, I think a fun place to start would be your definition for convincing. What does that really mean to you?

I think what it is, is it's getting the other person to believe what it is you're saying to convince themselves. That's what I think good convincers do.

I like that. And that last part, I'm so glad you said that, because that's one thing that I would always say. You can't really truly convince anybody, but you can get them to convince themselves through the conversation that you're having. And so let's break this down because I think it's really counterintuitive for a lot of people. So what does it mean to get somebody to convince them?

Sure. So I think what's so fascinating is when we started writing the book, I mean, I think I'm a pretty convincing person. I've spoken at the UN twice. I've had some interactions with the President of the United States, Joe Biden. I mean, like, I've done some really amazing things in my career, heads of state, et cetera. You know, I mean, I've been around a lot of very powerful people, and I felt like I was always pretty convincing. But what I realized is I was going about it all wrong. According to social science, 40 years of social science says you should never start with your strongest point first. Never start with your strongest point first. And the reason is, is because if you do, all you're going to do is get that person to dig their heels in about what they already know about what you are stating. You never walk into a meeting and start with your strongest point first. And then everybody goes, you know what, Kwame? That was awesome. 11 seconds and you're going to close your book. We're like, the meeting is over. You're such a genius. No reason to talk about anything else. We're done here. Only in our wildest dreams. Maybe that has happened to you. I know you are super smart guy, so, like, maybe that has happened to you, but it doesn't normally happen to most people, right? So what we have to do is we have to kind of take somebody down. Convincing continuum. Sort of a journey you take them on, right? And the way you do this is by presenting something we call fud, Right? And this is not a new, new concept, but the way at which we're Ordering it is, right? So you start at your point of agreement. What can you get the other person to agree on with you? And usually you know what that is, right? It's some kind of starting point where it's, it's a peaceful start. And then what you want to do is you want to use fud, fear, uncertainty and doubt, right? You want to get them to question their fear of maybe being wrong about what it is you're presenting them, right? Because people do have fears that they could be wrong. Maybe they have uncertainty about what it is they really know about the topic. And maybe they think you might know more and doubt, maybe they don't know as much as they think they know and you know more. And so you're getting them to sort of be more malleable, or what scientists say is you're unfreezing their cognitive biases. And by unfreezing their cognitive biases, they become more open to hearing new ideas. But here's the interesting thing. You have to start at your point of agreement. Not your strongest point first, but your, your point of agreement. You got to move them down the continuum with fear, uncertainty and doubt. And then you've got to give them something to think about, give them something to consider. And here's the fascinating part. You have to stop there because if you go too far, you're going to go to their latitude of rejection is what it's called. And once you get somebody to their latitude of rejections, they never hear what you are going to say after that, right? If you start with your strongest point first and they don't agree with it, all they're doing is replaying the ways at which you're wrong in their head, right? But if you take them down, you start with an agreement, okay? They're like, this is a reason, reasonable person who I think is smart, who thinks I'm smart. Because you're validating them, because they believe the same thing you do in some degree. And then you're kind of me, you're melding a little bit of their ideas about something because you're using fud. And then you're giving them what we call a cliffhanger, something for them to think about, go research, go look at on their own, go ponder on their own. And then the next time that you come back with them, the second interaction is really where the convincing conversation begins to play out. And you could actually get them to think differently about a topic, but they sort of have to come to some of the conclusions themselves in order to be effective.

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Yeah. And then you're trying to convince them in the reverse, they've already gone to their latitude of rejection and like, getting them back to a point of agreement is super difficult. And then therefore, you're losing any level of advantage you may have had in the beginning, like whatever you know, that they might not know, you're revealing yourself too quickly. And actually, like when I started out in journalism, it was the inverted pyramid, right. You start with the who, what, where, when and why. It's the strongest point first all time. I mean, when I read that, I was like, oh my gosh, I've been doing this wrong for a long time. I've got to change my strategy. But here's another technique that is so underrated. And when I say it, people are going to be like, I've heard that before. I don't know if that's going to work. And the term is called targeted validation. I believe more than anything in this world, more than love, more than money, people want to be validated. So few of us get validated. I mean, I grew up in my career in Manhattan, and, like, I could tell you I didn't get a compliment for the first 10 years I was working. I mean, they kept promoting me, but nobody ever said anything nice. Like, it was never, like, great job. I mean, right? Because New York is just like that. That's where I cut my teeth. But this idea of targeted validation and the way you do it is you listen. You listen so intently to that person, and we call it forensic listening in our book, and you start to understand them so well that you can validate them in a way that they've never been validated before. They feel heard, they feel seen. They feel appreciated for the thing that they want to be appreciated for. And again, that sounds just like a compliment, right? Maybe it's just a compliment, but it's so much more than that. Targeted validation is recognizing what someone wants other people to recognize in themselves and pointing that out and bringing that out. And if you're able to do that before a negotiation, if you're able to do that during a business meeting, it can work wonders in making people a fan of yours. Because if you're a fan of theirs, they're going to be a fan of yours. It's like, I want the person at the table who's going to say nice things about me in front of others, right? I want the person who's going to recognize my strengths and what I'm good at and say it out loud. I want that person in a lot of opportunities. And so you just start to find that people invite. Invite you to things. You get invited more, you get invited back. People want to be around you, and opportunities just seem to come to you.

It feels like magic. And I think for people on the outside looking in, it looks like luck, because especially when you can do it in a way that it is intertwined with your authentic mode of communication, it shouldn't feel like persuasion. It's just authentic communication. Let's do a coaching exercise. So I'm going to take. This is the first time I've heard the term targeted validation. Love it. Okay, I'm going to try to highlight the difference between a compliment and targeted validation. And I want you to coach me, tell me what I did well and what I did poorly. So I'm going to give you a compliment. Adele. This content is amazing. This is so, so, so good. Compliment targeted validation. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you put a lot of work into doing this research. You took all of the years that you've taken from journalism, from pr and partnering with Chip, too. You took his hostage negotiation expertise, and you put it together to create a unique piece of content that you can't find anywhere else. It seems like that probably took a lot of effort.

Oh, my God. That's so good. Right? That's an excellent example. And the first one's like, well, that's nice. Thank you. But the second one is you paid attention to what I said. You picked up on my. On the things that I had energy around you focused on the things that I want other people to know about, what went into writing the book. And therefore, now I want to ask you. I want to ask you questions about what you do and what you're about, because I want to bring the best out in you. It is really a natural reciprocation. But so many of us do not do well. And just mastering this one technique, if people come off of this podcast with this one technique and they learn to master it, they will be so much more convincing than when they didn't use it.

You're so right. I think there was one time I was talking to one of my friends. He's actually a mentor of mine, and he gave me a piece of. Well, not even advice. He just made. Made a note, and it's really stuck with me because he said, kwame, I love talking to you because you make me feel like God.

Ooh. Wow.

He didn't say, you make me feel like I'm talking to God. You make me feel like God. And the thing is, I'm not trying to butter people up or anything. You're giving them something that they desperately need, probably can't articulate, and never get, which is just to be seen and valued for who they are and what they do.

Oh, my gosh. That's such a great point. Right? And I mean, I think being seen and valued for who you are is something we all desire, whether it's personal or professional, right? So if you see someone in your professional life who's able to bring out these really good qualities in you, you want to work with them more, you want to hire them more, you want to bring them in. I mean, if we have consultants or people who are selling things for a living on this, call this. This is, like the number one technique that you need to take away from this conversation. It is one Hundred percent effective. It works every time. And it has to be genuine. That's the one thing I have to say. It has to be genuine. It cannot be just, wow, I really like your suit jacket. It's like, no, those are superficial compliments. You don't write. You want to actually say something that means something about their personality and who they are, who they want the world to see them. That's really the special place, the one thing we did. Here's like, a crazy example, and I'm going to sound so weird when I say this, right? But when Chip and I were writing the book, I was like, who are some of the most convincing people in the world? Right. We had this, like, conversation. So let me ask you, Kwame, who do you think some of the most convincing people are in the world?

And this is. I'll give a very clear disclaimer here, because I know this is a very sensitive time, but I think we have to just recognize we're talking about convincing in terms of efficacy right now. The most convincing person in the world at this moment. It's hard not to say Donald Trump, regardless of how you feel about his politics. Politics, yes. That's the first person that comes to mind, mainly because he's always in the news. And I've been trying to analyze this, like, what is it about his approach that makes him so convincing?

My viewpoint on what makes him so convincing is, here's what I think. So politics decides. I want to be as bipartisan as I can, but here's what I think it is. Donald Trump does not follow any of the rules that anyone has set out for politicians ever since the dawn of time. And politics is so much about the rules before Donald Trump came on the scene, right? Like, what can we say? What can we not say? And he's just like, I don't care. I'm gonna say whatever I want, and he's gonna say it. In short, very succinct, repeatable things. And what a lot of politicians did before him was they talked above people, and he doesn't do that. And therefore, he represents to people who they think he is. I mean, I think it's fascinating to me that there are people who are super, super conservative where, like, Donald Trump's conservative. Like, in what way is he conservative? He's like, he's divorced. He's like an atheist. He's like. I mean, like, he's like, he represents nothing that the Conservative Party would say he represents, but yet there are people who are like, yeah, it's my Donald Trump. It's like he's an everyman. That's one of the things I think he does really well is he speaks at the level that people want to be spoken. He's super succinct, and he doesn't follow any of the rules that other people are prescribed to following.

So, yeah, I agree with that whole assessment, and I know that there are people who are going to be listening and would say he is not convincing or persuasive at all. The other thing, he knows his audience, and if you're not convinced or persuaded, he was not trying to convince or persuade you. He was probably trying to trigger you at your expense. And then also, that is beneficial to him as well. And then, I mean, I think let's be a little bit more holistic, too. So I don't want to just focus on him. I think some. Somebody like John Oliver is also very convincing, too, because he brings a lot of data that's persuasive, but also he introduces that comedic element that lowers your defenses, that makes you a bit more receptive to whatever it is that he is saying. Again, politics aside, I think it's just a unique persuasive approach. Yeah. So there are so many different avatars for what persuasion and convincing people can look like. And I think that's ultimately very empowering, too, because whoever you are listening to this podcast, you too, can be convincing in your own type of way. But I just encourage everybody to, regardless of whether or not you like their politics or their beliefs or anything like that, figure out those people who tend to persuade people really well, analyze what they do well, and see how you can take it and turn it into something that is authentic and works for you.

Yeah. And I think there are so many women who are really excellent at this rate. Kamala Harris, to me, I think she's very persuasive when I hear her speak. I know other people may not think so, but I do. I think Oprah Winfrey, obviously, you know, who I've met and a few times, and she's amazing. She understands who she's talking to. She asks the questions everybody wants her to ask. So she's really persuasive in that way. But I think one of the things that's sort of interesting that we found when writing the book was that people. There are two types of convincers, I think two types of convincers, and then there are people who like to be convinced in one or two of these ways, too. So just. We can take this from both perspectives. Right. Great. So I'll give you an example. When I hit my first million dollar revenue mark, I really wanted to get a Mercedes. Really wanted to get a Mercedes. And I, I'm recently divorced, but I was married to an engineer and he and I have different communication styles, hence the divorce. But I say this for a specific reason, right? So I am an emotional convincer. I would say I like to tell stories. I like to tell you why I'm feeling this and why I think you should feel it too. I'm an emotional convincer. He is a fact based convince, wants to hear the facts, he wants to hear the data, he wants to hear the information about why he should make such and such decision. So when I wanted to get the Mercedes, I was like, I hit my first million, I really want it. I want this car. I think I'll look good in it. It just represents success to me. Like, I've always wanted it. Come on, you know, I think it'll be great. And he's like, no, it's impractical. Like, it doesn't make sense. And then I'm like, okay, go to one of my friends. And she's like, well, you're convincing him all wrong. That's not how he wants to be convinced. You're convincing him from your persuasion style. Convince him from his persuasion style. I'm like, okay. And I was like, all right, so it's got the best resale value of any luxury vehicle on the market. It's the safest luxury retail on the market. It has fewer repairs than any other luxury vehicle on the market. He's like, okay, fine, buy it. I mean, just my money. So I should have bought the car anyway, right? But like, my point is, it's a great example of, like, he wants to be convinced by mostly facts, and I want to be convinced by mostly emotions, stories, anecdotes, why? Tell me why. Emotionally, you want to be told. So if we look at it like that and we start to convince people through their preference, and it's not to say that we're 100% one way or the other, but we all have a preference. So let me ask you, Kwame, what type of a convincer are you? Are you more emotional or are you more fact based? Not to say they're one or the other, but you probably have a preference.

Yes, my preference is fact based. And I recognize that it is. It depends on the circumstances a lot because I've learned how to be flexible too. So I want to try to sit back, make some reads to figure out what would work best for the other person and then try to adjust and flex. But I also recognize that the more strongly I feel about something, the less I will be willing to flex and adjust. And then I just start to beat people to death with logic and that. So I think it's important to understand.

And it's like the logic. Yeah, you're like. That makes sense for the following.

Yeah, right. Because I say it, it's like, okay, cool, I'm a negotiator, I'm a deal maker, right? So I'm persuasive, I'm flexible. But then we have to understand what my base is. Remember, like you said at the beginning, so the more emotional I get, the more I sound like my legal training. Lest we forget, Kwame is a lawyer. And it doesn't matter if I'm right. I will not lose. And so. But again, that's not persuasive. It is not persuasive, nor is it endearing. So you have a.

But you have a preference, right? And like, and I think we go. And then I actually think that's a great point. Right? Because I think when we're, especially when we're in a negotiation or when we're in an argument, right? It's like, I'm gonna like, gut you. I'm gonna make you believe what I believe by convincing you through my emotional. I'm not gonna flip flop. I might, I might if I really want it. But when it starts to get down to like that really like nitty gritty of the deal, right? You've got to recognize that you're going to likely flip back to your preferred style. And if you could know that about yourself and go, okay, I know I'm going to go back to being super fact based. What emotional arguments am I going to have ready? And then for me it would be like, what fact based arguments am I going to have ready? Because I know I'm going to defer one way or another.

Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And now let's say this. Let's say somebody's listening and they're saying, okay, this is great. We have these two modes of communication, of convincing. What advice would you have for somebody when they are in the conversation? How do you make a read to determine which mode of convincing would be best for this circumstance?

I think one of the things you want to do is analyze small talk. People will tell you a lot in the small talk, right? What do they focus on? Are they focusing on their kids? If they tell you about their kids, what type of story are they telling you? If they focus on work, what type of work story are they telling you? That's going to give you a lot of indications. Like people reveal so much about themselves, themselves instantly. I mean, I think people could probably tell pretty quickly. I'm an emotional condenser, right? Like just how I tell stories. I think you could see it from the beginning of the interview if you went back and analyzed it. And I think people could see that you're a fact based convincer. I knew you were going to say fact based, like instinctually, you know how. Right. And based on your training and who you are and like what perspective you came from. So you want to start the argument based on what people show you, but you can also ask them and be wrong. I could ask you, like, what type of, what do you think you are? Do you tend to tell more stories or do you like data and facts? We just ask people questions like that, like, hey, I want to make sure this negotiation is as good for you as it can be. So let's focus on what you want to talk about today. Do you want me to tell you a story about how we can use this service or such and such, or do you want me to tell you the facts and figures? What do you prefer? And that will tell you a lot about how you should start and finish the negotiation? Just ask.

That is brilliant. I don't know why. And again, listen, we're at 1200 plus posted episodes of this show. I've been in this industry for a while. I've never heard anybody say, ask somebody how they want to be convinced or persuaded or what resonates with you. That's completely novel. It might be very familiar for you because you are accustomed to your own brilliance. This is new to me and I think it's great because I'm thinking about, from my perspective, if somebody were to ask me that question, especially given my background as a lawyer, I'm typically prepared, pretty skeptical and be like, why are they asking me that? Initially, I don't feel there's like a red light going off that says, hey, that seems to be a ploy of some kind. And then the metacognition continues. Well, okay then what's the, what's the risk? What is the risk other than elevating the conversation and helping me to not waste my time hearing things that are irrelevant to me? And so ultimately it really makes the conversation flow a lot better. There would be no advantage to them hiding that information unless their goal is to be annoyed through this conversation.

I'm going to tell you both.

Both.

I'm going to give you both. And that's the choice too, right? I can tell you more from a story based perspective. I can tell you about facts. What do you prefer? Or I can do both. But the person will usually tell you what they prefer and they'll review a lot of information right there. And that's. And you start off negotiating better than most people.

Yeah. Oh, that's smart. That is really smart. Another thing I like to do is I like to ask decision making questions and it's easier when it's a topic that doesn't seem germane, you know. So if it might be, you mentioned your Mercedes, ladies in a conversation. I might be like out of curiosity, how did you know that was the right car for you? And you'll probably talk more about the feel, the vibe of it versus somebody else who talks about resale value.

That's gonna tell you something about who they are too, right? Right then and there. I mean, you can ask. I mean, if a person's talking about like buying a home or if you're a realtor, right? Like what aspects of the house do they want? I mean, there's so much revealed in what we say. And people give up so much more information than you might think. Like in every conversation. Your ab read people. And of course, as an attorney, as a lawyer, like that's really. So much of your training is reading people, right. And doing that effectively. But so much of us in business, we don't really do it well. Right. I'll give you a quick. Can I tell you a quick story about what happened to me in college? I think it's worthy of a chat. So when I went to school at Rutgers University in New Jersey, so state school, I was the first one to graduate from college in my immediate family. So I was pretty naive, right? So I went on the train to Manhattan every single day and this woman comes up to me and she says, you know, I see you here all the time and I saw you last week and you had a green coat on. And I really liked that green coat. And I just wanted to ask you, do you think I could borrow $11.64 because my daughter is stranded pre cell phone days, right. So I'm dating myself, but pre cell phone days. I'm like, she's like, I need to go to Rutherford, New Jersey. She gave a very specific location, Right. And okay, again, I'm like skeptical a little bit, right. I'm a New Yorker, like, so I'm wondering, I'm pondering $11.64. So I go and look on the board. It's $11.64 to go where she's going. She's like, listen, I see you here a lot. I'll give you back the money. I know I'll probably see you here soon. And, please, I'm stranded. I really don't know who else to ask for, and I don't want to ask a man, of course. Could you loan me the money? So I gave her the money, and I know. I know the listeners are like, it's probably a scam. So I go home, and one of my best friends we lived with in college, I was like, queen. I was like, I gave this woman $11.64, whatever, to get to Rutherford, New Jersey. And. And I was like, I'm. I did my good deed for the day because I had to tell somebody about it, right? And she's just like, dang it. I gave that woman the same amount of money yesterday. Sucker. Right? Sucker times two or so. Like, I mean, how many times did this woman do this, right? Like, I'm sure, like, a million. But let's take a minute. I'm going to ask you, Kwame, what did she do right in reading me? What manipulation or convincing strategies did she use to get me to give her the money? Let me throw that back at you. What do you think?

Yes. Well, first is the validation. Just recognizing that that coat, it stands out, and that's unique. And I see you. Right. And then I think the second thing would be the specificity of the request. It wasn't just arbitrary. We know in negotiation, the more precise the number, the convincing that number becomes.

Yeah.

And then I think it would be that emotional appeal to the. I think you said you were. Something about the daughter. Daughter. So it's like, oh, well, do you pose the different ways? Like, hey, do you hate kids?

Right?

So there's a little bit of my daughter's branded.

Yeah. No, it's totally good guilt. Right? And I'm a good Catholic girl. I can't help myself. I'm like, fine. She was so specific. She's going to see me here tomorrow. Right? And that's the other thing I was thinking, oh, my God, what if she sees me here tomorrow and I don't give it to her? I'm gonna feel bad, like. So it was so many levels of smart strategy on this con artist part for $11 and, like, 24 cents. But what I ask the audience is this. Do you go into meetings knowing your prospect, your client or who you're meeting with at that level, she did it for $11.24. What are you doing it for? Right. I mean, you gotta start analyzing people. It's not manipulation. It's just smart business. Right. I mean, in her part, it's manipulation. Right. But you gotta do it.

I mean, the distinction between manipulation and persuasion just comes down to intent. Right. It's the same tool I make. This is a negotiation podcast. I want to make the world a better place. I choose to believe that everybody listening to this is. They're good people. Now, there might be somebody who's like, I'm evil. I'm going to take this a twist.

Right?

But I'm out here giving tools, and I think that's really important for people to appreciate, because sometimes I've run into this a number of times where people are saying, oh, I don't want to do this. It seems manipulative. And I'm thinking to myself, putting yourself conversationally and relationally in the best position possible to get the outcome that you want isn't manipulative unless you're doing it in a way that puts the other person in a detrimental position. And, you know, you're putting them in a detrimental position and you're withholding information that they need in order to make a good decision. And as long as you're not doing those things, listen, you're just. You're setting yourself up for a good conversation. And think about these times when you've been persuaded or you've been convinced. There are times where it's appropriate for you to change your mind, and it would be better if that was a more pleasant experience. Right?

Right. You don't want to walk away from a negotiation feeling badly. Nobody wants that. Right. And I think one of the best ways I've ever heard this said is you can use a hammer to build a house or break a window. It just depends on how are you using it. So I would implore people, try some different techniques, try some different concepts and ways at which to go about this. On this podcast alone, we've given you quite a few different ways to look at how to be persuasive and convincing. And I hope that you guys go out and buy our book. We've got lots of great tools we. And tips and techniques we haven't even talked about on the podcast yet. But I'd love for you guys to go out and check that out.

Absolutely. Adele, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing this with us again. Just remind the listeners about the name of the book, the name of your company and how they can get in touch.

Sure. It's convinced me high stakes negotiation tactics to get results in any business situation. Long tagline that I did not think my tagline was convince me how to get more of what you want, which I think is a little bit, A little bit better. But hey, I'm not complaining. I'm not. I am a little bit. I'm not complaining a little bit. I'm complaining. Go get the book. It's available on Amazon in Barnes and Noble and a variety of different ways at which you can get books. And yeah, take a look@incincingcompany.com Amazing.

Adele, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content you've been asking for, more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, Career. Career and every conversation. With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights giving you the tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients and I am confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.