Unveiling the American Negotiation Institute: A Reverse Interview featuring Marcus Banks

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Marcus, thanks for joining us today, my friend.

Of course. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, it is my pleasure. So, listeners, this is going to be a reverse interview, so Marcus is actually going to be interviewing me. So before we start, Marcus, can you get us started by just telling about yourself and telling us what you do?

Yeah. So, hey, everybody, My name is Marcus Banks. I'm a standup comedian based in Chicago, Illinois, and I also run a company called your charismatic co host, where I come on and spice up your podcast.

Absolutely. This is really cool. So, first of all, I think it's a really cool business idea. You know, just being able to interview the host of different shows, I think that's really cool. So I'm excited to share this with all my podcast friends. But yeah, we appreciate this too, because instead of giving the world an update with like a. A boring monologue, now we can have a conversation with somebody who by definition is charismatic and funny as a co host and a comedian. So looking forward to it. So where should we start, Marcus?

Well, I'm curious about how A and I got started in the first place and what inspired it and what move you made to make it come to be.

Yeah, so essentially with A and I, I wanted to build the company that I always wanted to work for. There just weren't that many opportunities to work for a company like this. It's pretty unique. And so for me, I've talked a lot about the fact that back in the day, before becoming a lawyer, I was a people pleaser. That was something I really struggled with. And so it Wasn't until I got to law school that I discovered negotiation and conflict resolution as a skill set. And I took a class, and that's when I fell in love. So it was the first time I was able to recognize that the ability to advocate for yourself was a skill, not just. I didn't realize that I could get better at this. And so I took the course, did well, and then we had a negotiation competition at Ohio State and my partner.

Competition?

Yeah. Oh. So these things are really fun. And so in law school, they have moot court, and so you get to do a. Like a pretend trial practicing, but in one aspect of it, like, another type of competition they have is a negotiation competition where they have you and a partner, you represent a fictional client, and then you go head to head with somebody else, with lawyers and judges and mediators from the community, actual, like, professors and practitioners looking at you and judging the competition. So it's pretty cool. Pretty intense. Pretty intense.

So it's like the bait club on steroids, basically.

Exactly, exactly. That's exactly what it is. And so I. You know, I didn't know about negotiation competitions before law school, but it sounded pretty cool. And so my partner and I, we won the competition at the law school, which, again, for me, coming from that people pleaser background, was a bit of a shocker. But I was just obsessed with it. I was like, I can get better. Let me keep on trying to get better. So we just really outworked the competition. Just practicing and studying and role playing and putting our strategy together. I became obsessed. And so that allowed us to represent the school at the American Bar association regional competition in Ottawa, Ontario.

Oh, this is like a whole thing, like an Ohio State. We're having fun. It's like, there's like a nap. National phenomenon.

Yeah. So for us, the OSU competition was like a qualifier. So that's how we picked. It was like 55 different teams that year. It was a massive year in terms of, like, how many people wanted to compete. And so the top two teams get to represent the school at regionals. And so that was pretty sick. And we won that competition, too. And then that allowed us to represent the, like, the region at the American Bar association national competition. And we made it to the semis.

Okay.

Yeah. So I was hooked, man. I was hooked, like, because again, that's year one competing with the best in the country. And again, it was only because I became obsessed with it. Constantly studying, reading, doing extra work and things like that. So after that experience, Marcus, I was like, oh, I Got to. I need to figure out a way to share this message. Other people need to know, because it made me wonder just how many people out there were in that same situation where they don't realize that they can improve their lives, their careers, their relationships by improving this skill. And so that's where the motto comes from for A and I. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And so for me, it's just about spreading the message as far as we can.

That's beautiful. That's what's up. I mean, I had no idea that debate. What were they referred to as?

Negotiation competitions. Yeah.

Wow. It feels like you were like this. Did you guys win, or was it just semis?

No, we made it to the semis, but, I mean, it was a big competition. Okay, like, what is that? That puts us in, like, the top eight. Top four or something like that of the folks in the country.

I mean, if you're top four, you came up with A. And I. What is first place? If anybody remember first place? Anybody even remember second place? Who knows who the third place guy was?

Who knows, man?

We know the fourth place guy. So we are.

Exactly, exactly. That's. Listen, man, that's why I have the podcast, to let them know, hey, hey, remember me? But, yeah, man, it was. It was cool. And so for me, like, the podcast even is older than A. And I just. By a couple of months, like, I started the podcast just because I wanted to share as much as I could. Didn't know where to start sharing. I said, all right, let me start this podcast. Nobody was really listening at the beginning, you know, just talking to some friends together. Yeah. But the thing was, I just didn't quit. And I think that's one of the differentiators, because most podcasts, on average, quit between their sixth or their ninth episode. That's usually how far they get before they pack it in. But now we're at. We're creeping up on 600 episodes. Six years.

Wow, that's impressive.

It's just the, like, consistency then, and I think that's really what I chalk it up to.

Yeah, no, I'm a comedian, and I have many a friend who tried to do a podcast, and they don't get past the first episode, so I know how hard it is. They don't have anything nearly as interesting as negotiation. It's usually about some TV show that nobody watches but them. So no wonder it doesn't move past the first episode.

I tell you, man, the negotiation niche was interesting because you can look at its cousin sales, and there are thousands of sales podcasts, but when you look at how many. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, there's. I mean, there's probably new sales podcasts every week that are coming out.

Interesting.

Yeah, but on the negotiation side, not that many. Like, when I started, I was the only active show. Every other negotiation podcast had stopped running, and then now they're probably about 20 or so active ones. Wow. Some of them just don't make it okay.

I don't want to diss sales podcasts, but we'll just move on. That just sounds like the most boring thing in the entire world. But that's okay. Maybe that's what I'm for.

Exactly.

I'm curious as to how you built your plan, built your strategy, and how it manifested, like, what were the steps you took to, like, make it a real company. You mentioned that you started with the podcast, but what led to a company.

Yeah, so that was the interesting thing. The podcast is what put me in that position because that's how people started to know me in the industry. And so starting it, I had this idea. I said, okay, I want to become a thought leader in this. How do I do it? So I did some research, looked at the people that I admired who were thought leaders, and I tried to reverse engineer their success. Like, how do they get there? So I said, all right. The people that I look at, it seems like they have three pillars of thought leadership. So I said, I'm going to try to knock off one big thing every single year. So the first thing is they have a method of distribution of their message that they control completely. So for me, that was the podcast. So I have control of this, this medium, even with the deal that we just negotiated with LinkedIn. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. I still own the ip and I still have creative control over the way that I do this, which is great. And so that was an important part of the process. So that was 2016, and then 2017. I said, okay, the thought leaders, they have this speech that's on stage in front of a lot of people. That's really impressive. So I said, all right, I'll do a TED Talk. And so we did that TED Talk in front of 1200 people, and now it's at 300 plus thousand views. But there was a lot of practice that went into that and a lot of ideas and thoughts that went into that. So that was year two. So that was 2017, and then 2018. I said, all right, they Also have a book. And so all of the ideas that didn't make it into the TED Talk, that went into the book. So the TED Talk is finding confidence in conflict, and the book has the same name. Because when I started the TED Talk, I said, all right, these are all my ideas. It was 20, 22 pages. And I had to whittle that down over months to just like a tight two and a half pages or three pages of notes. So I'm like, I'm not letting all this go to waste.

No.

So. And so that went into the book. And so that. That was the. The approach. It was the podcast, the. The TED Talk, and the book that. That's the. The pillar of thought leadership. And then I built from there, and that gave me the credibility to get in and serve some of the biggest companies in the world. And it's been really cool.

Nice.

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Do you remember your first client?

I do. It's a funny story.

Yeah. What was that like?

And so it's funny. I haven't told the story to him in this way, and I think he'll be interested to hear it this way, too. So he was somebody who reached out from the podcast and he said, hey, I'm a lawyer. I've got a lot of experience. And at that beginning, at that point, I was saying to myself, no way did I get a client. Are you for real?

No way.

Right? So I thought it was like some kind of scam. I was like, no, this cannot be real. This has to be some kind of phishing scheme. But I was reading the emails, like, but it sounds really lawyerly. It sounds really legit. Let me try this out.

Oh, I know that feeling. Oh, my God.

So I was like. But I was cautiously optimistic. So I picked up the phone and called him, and he's like, hey, I've been listening to the podcast, I was like, this is much more legitimate than any other scam I've heard, so let's keep going. And so he's like, I've been listening to the podcast for a while and I'm really good as a lawyer in my field, but I've often struggled with the personal side where we with the psychology and the negotiation type of stuff. That's your strength. And I have this big negotiation, multimillion dollar deal. Want to see if I can bring you in as a consultant. And he's like, I've been practicing law for 28 years, but this negotiation side, that's really tough for me. And so for me, at the beginning of my career, I was pretty insecure about my age because most negotiation experts are a lot older than me. And so as I was hearing him say that, he's like, I've been practicing law for 28 years. And I was thinking, he does not know that I have been on this Earth for 27 years at this point. But we struck up a great conversation, have a great relationship still to this day. And the deal worked out. We got a good deal. He brought me in on another deal later that year and closed that deal. Went really well. Yeah. So that was really, really cool. And it was a blessing and a curse, Marcus. Because it was cool. Because I said to myself, wow, this is viable. I can make a living off of this. This is really great. And then the other thing was, it was such an incredible opportunity at such an early stage that I started to think like that's where the majority of opportunities were going to come in consulting with lawyers. I said, oh, I'm a lawyer. I come in as a consultant. Well, I worked with him one other time. Another opportunity came up. But I've to that to that. Since that day, I've never had another lawyer consulting client.

Interesting.

Yeah. So I've done all companies trainings. Yeah, well, it's all companies doing those negotiation deals. And if I work with clients now, it's almost exclusively training. And then every once in a while, a corporate client will bring us in on a big deal that they need help with. But it was really interesting because I started to pursue like lawyers as potential clients for consulting. And that's not where the market was, which was interesting. And so it's been interesting to see the market kind of reveal itself to us over time.

Yeah. And then you guys paying attention to that and you're not trying to force something that isn't actually there because it takes a lot of humility as A lawyer to even reach out to another lawyer for help like that. And I don't know if lawyers are the most humble people in the world, so it makes a lot of sense that, you know, these companies are asking for your help instead, you know?

Exactly. And that's the thing, you know, because lawyers will bring me in now. Law firms would bring me in to do, like, continuing legal education training, so negotiation trainings, conflict resolution trainings, but, yeah, not on the consulting side. But I think this is still really enjoyable to me. I love doing the trainings, you know, and the diversity of clients that we have has been insane because, you know, I have to remember the NDAs that I've signed. But it's a lot of recognizable brands that way. A lot of recognizable brands. And. But the. The thing is, Marcus, when it comes down to it, it's people talking to people. And so we have people who are negotiating big deals. They want, like, pure negotiation training. Then we have leaders who just want to be more persuasive, be more inclusive, be more. Have better communication and resolve conflict. And then we started doing diversity, equity, and inclusion training, too, focusing on connection and how you can have these skills of negotiation and conflict resolution and use it to bring cultures together and communicate, even though we're different, even though we have different backgrounds. And again, we often. Those diversity trainings often focus on the negative, on how things are so bad and why. Why you should be afraid of interacting with people because of all the mistakes that you make. But I think what's been really refreshing is taking this fresh approach of negotiation and empowering people to connect through communication. And that's been just a really refreshing addition to the services that we offer, because it's still on brand, because people talking to people at the end of the day.

Yeah, that's beautiful. I feel like a lot of people have really probably have deep gratitude for what you're able to do for them just as a result of crushing these negotiation competitions. It's crazy to see how far you came from. Like, I'm just, like, trying to be the best negotiator to, like. I'm, like, helping companies and people connect with one another. That's dope.

Thanks, man.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you guys. What do you all have planned for this year?

This year is exciting. This year's exciting. We have a couple of big things, and it started off with a bit of a disappointment, but I like to. One of my things, I like to say is not just fail faster. I want to try different things, experiment and everything, but fail Forward, take big shots, and even if you don't land the target, you still are in a better position. So at the beginning of the year, we were in talks with the Oprah Winfrey Network for a TV show, and we were close. Went out to la, did some recording, met with the executives, and they were interested in the concept. And then they were like, all right, we'll. We'll get back to you. And then later, I got the feedback from our producer that we went with. She said, hey, they loved you on camera. They thought you were really charismatic and everything, but they thought that you were quote, quote, too clinical in your approach. And we didn't think that you would bring the drama. And I was like, you're damn right I'm not going to bring the drama. That's not what I'm supposed to do.

So they don't want to help people is what they're saying.

Could you imagine, like a hostage negotiator? It's like, hey, there's the hostage negotiator. Here comes the drama. Drama that's not good for business. Right. So I was disappointed because this was always one of the goals. So. So, Marcus, when you. If you look at the trademark for Negotiate Anything, it will be, of course, it will say podcast, but it will also say trademarked as a TV show, because I wanted to own the IP of it. So, like, parlaying the podcast into TV was something that I was always thinking about strategically. Now, after having that experience, I'm realizing that the. What it would take to be successful on TV in this, in this type of field would be antithetical to the brand. Like, all of the work that I do in terms of making the world a better place, with teaching the art and science of negotiation, conflict resolution, you know, improving lives and community through difficult conversations would be instantaneously. If I had to change the approach to be more dramatic.

Yeah. It would defeat the purpose, and you would defeat. You know what I'm saying? Like, it would. You gotta maintain your integrity, which is really impressive. Some people would just take that deal, move forward. They get to be on the old network, they compromise their entire set of principles. So it's taking that rejection to the chin. Says a lot. I'm curious about what a typical episode, if we're able to. What a typical episode of Negotiate Anything would look like.

Yeah. So the idea we floated with.

Own.

Was a show where it's like two people who used to be friends, maybe business partners or something, and they had a falling out for whatever reason. And then I essentially Use my mediation skills to dig deeper, figure out what the problem was, and see if we could make. Make it better, you know, that type of thing. And I like the idea of two people who used to be friends or whatever and then working through the resolution because that's something that we can all relate to.

Yeah.

All been in that situation. You know, another one would have been, I like doing breakdowns of conversations. So another show that I would have loved to do is actually have people sit down and actually trigger an argument. Like, let's watch them argue. But then it's almost like a sports show where you can pause it and say, ah, you see that micro expression?

I was just thinking that. Yeah, I was just thinking like John Madden with the circles and stuff in the middle of the game. Exactly. Yeah.

That would be so cool. I love see. And this sounds really, you know, twisted, but I love seeing conversations that break down because I love challenging myself to observe it and see the different forks in the road that led them to this point. It's like, oh, there's a. This is an inflection point. This person got heated for this reason. That other person is going to talk as if that didn't happen. They need to stop and address that problem right now or things are going to go way off track. Oh, things are off track right now. Right. I love that. And so if we find the right partner to do that, we will. But, you know, the thing is, at the end of the day, it made space for a much better deal, like the deal with LinkedIn, where it's not just negotiate anything, but it's also they're helping us to create a new podcast, negotiate real change, the LinkedIn banner, you know, and I can create the content I want to create as often as I want to create it and help people in new and unique ways. And so now that we have this relationship, it gives me a lot more license to spend time on podcasting because the deal is that good. So I don't feel bad about not spending time doing trainings or anything like that, because podcasting by itself is. Is worth it, which is great.

That's what's up. So, in general, what does the future hold for you all beyond. Beyond the, you know, the own network situation you're trying to podcast more. Like, what else is in. What else are you guys looking forward to?

Yeah, so the big thing this year is the book, the second book coming out. So the first book was Finding Confidence in Conflict, like I mentioned before, but the second book is how to have Difficult Conversations about race so really providing that resource for the people who are having those conversations, because for me, I want to go where the toughest conversations are, because that's. Those conversations are happening. We might as well empower people. Absolutely. And when we think about the leaders within companies, we have people who are trying to create positive change in their companies. Well, this is great. This is a resource for you. Then you have people who are deathly afraid of conversations about race and other sensitive topics, and they got into the business world to do good work and help people, and now they have to have these conversations about topics that scare them. They don't want to. And so for the person who's afraid of having the conversation and just wants to survive the conversation, this is another. This is a tool that they can use to have those conversations safely and respectfully without risking offending people as much as possible, you know, so it's. It's going to be exciting. It comes out September 13, 2022, and I think it could be big, man. I really, I'm really happy about that. But it's. It was a labor of love, to be sure, because it took a long time.

Is it like a toolkit or just like a stream of consciousness or they're like exercises within it? Like, well, what should people be expecting?

Yeah. Great question, man. So essentially, it's breaking down what makes these conversations so difficult, and then what you can do about it. So it gives you specific tools that you can use in the conversation to be more effective, because that's really what it comes down to. Everybody has a goal in these conversations. And so this, this book provides you a tool, a set of tools that allows you to make it more likely for you to hit those goals, whatever the goals might be, with little damage. Right. I think that's a big part of it. Right. And then. But it's designed to spark conversation. So we have a lot of practical examples that bring. Bring the tools to life, but at the end of every chapter, we have discussion questions. So if you're reading it with a book group or something like that, you can have. You can actually have these conversations and practice the skills that you're learning from the book with other people.

Nice. Yeah, that's useful. This is a perpetual workbook for folks to use.

Exactly, Exactly. Yeah, man. So I'm excited. It's. It's going to be a cool, busy, very busy last half of the year, for sure.

Yeah. Going on tour.

Yeah. A bit of. I'll be on a ton of different podcasts. I was thinking about the. The book Tour approach. And what I'm realizing, especially after seeing what Covid did to book tours before, just how much can be done digitally. And I already have the podcast set up. I already have a lot of relationships in the podcast community. If I, for instance, were to fly to New York and we have a big event, and we do. We pack a room with like, 300, 500, even a thousand people, that's great. But I could just sit here in my studio like I always do, and talk to one person from the comfort of my home or my studio.

Correct.

And reach, like 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 people, you know? So, yeah, why spend the money.

Why spend the money going somewhere risking Covid for 100 people? We could just talk to the 10,000, like you said, directly from your couch or your chair.

Exactly, exactly. And I will say our. Our CFO helped me to see the reality.

Crunch some numbers.

No need for all of that. No need, no need. So I'm like, okay, message received. Okay, so we stay in, put. I do enough traveling.

That's where that negotiation comes in. There's some tangible numbers as a part of that.

Exactly, exactly.

That's what's up, man. That's. That's exciting. I'm excited about the book. I'm excited to see where you guys take. Do you. Do you still have any plans on, like, pursuing television?

It would need to be the right opportunity, man. I. I'm not. I'm not searching for those deals anymore. I'll say it that way, I think. The what the deals with LinkedIn, with LinkedIn, learning, with LinkedIn, the mothership itself, with. With the podcast and everything like that, it's showing me that there's some. There's some really cool opportunities out there to monetize the content in different ways. And so eating our own course, our own ANI course and selling that directly, that's something that's on the docket for the next six months to a year. But then also partnering with organizations like the Great Courses and Audible and some other digital learning platforms. We're in talks now to put on some content for them too, because that's evergreen. It produces income, like, in perpetuity, you know? So trying to create some more of those deals, I think that's great for a number of reasons, because it generates revenue, but it also builds our audience as well, because we're going to be introduced to new audiences, which puts us in position to sell more trainings. So the content side of the company is going to be a major focus, but going mainly more so Directly on the education route, but I'm always open if, if there are other opportunities. But I'm going to be a bit pickier because deal with LinkedIn, I'm like, oh, so this is what a media deal could feel like. Yeah. So this is the new barrier, the new, the new. The new line. Everything needs to be at least this good or better. Right. Honestly, most other deals haven't been. So we'll just keep on pushing forward and deepen into the relationship with LinkedIn and other partners like them.

That's what's up. Oh, the gauntlet's been thrown. The standard has been set, everybody.

That's right, man. Well, I appreciate you coming on the pod as my charismatic co host. Awesome job. And so if other people want to work with you and learn more about your offerings, what's the best way to get in touch?

Yeah, I mean, you can hit me up by phone number. Am I going to give that to a million people? You can follow my Instagram. My name is Marcus Banks, but my Instagram is barcusbanks. So the M and the B are switched over. B, A R, C U S, M, A, N, K S. And yeah, you can reach out to there and then we'll be in contact with one another.

Perfect. And everybody, I'll put Marcus's contact info in the description of this episode. Thanks so much for coming on the show, man. Appreciate it.

Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity and really, I'm excited to see what ANI does in the future.

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