What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You With Melina Palmer

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Melina, thank you for joining us again, my friend.

Absolutely. Always, always, always delighted to chat with you and honored to be a guest on the show again.

Yes, likewise. So, listen, actually, before we go into the typical spiel, we need to send this episode to our buddy Brian Ahern, because I think he's been on show three times and you have, too. So this is. This is a little competition that's happening. I love it.

I know. Yes, that's. And I think you and he are in close relation to as far as times on the. On the. On my podcast, too. So in competing there, I think he's only been on my show twice. And now you've been there three times. So the race is on.

I love it. Well, cool. So for those who don't remember you, can you tell them about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. So I'm Melina Palmer. My company and podcast are both called the Brainy Business, and I am an applied behavioral economist. So help people to understand the psychology of why people buy. But now beyond that, I'm kind of saying it's act, choose, change, and buy. So I have a first book that is what Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell youl. My second book is what your employees need and can't tell you about adapting to change with the science of behavioral economics. So I do speaking and help people to understand how they can be more brain friendly in their work.

Listen here at the American Negotiation Institute with the Negotiate Anything podcast. Our listeners are very pro brain. We love to be brain friendly. Okay, so this is. You're in the right place, Molina. I love it. Yes. So everybody, I know this. That was a soft shout out, but I'm going to be a little bit more, you know, bold on my. On behalf of my friend here. So Molina has a new book coming out. All right. And I want you all to support it. There's a link in the description, so make sure you check this out. Out. And that's what this whole episode is about. Just really exploring some of the brainy goodness that is in there and really making it enticing for you all to get out there and buy it. So, Melina, tell us about this newest book.

Yeah, so this book was one. So it's what your employees need and can't tell you, like I said. And it really is all about understanding the brain and how it really reacts to change and talking about bias. Just spoke yesterday, Kwame, you know, right, where I was interviewing you about your new book for my show. And I was talking about how in the book, I talk about how there's a bias about biases, but we, we can't be unbiased. So understanding how the brain makes decisions and being able to navigate those waters more effectively, to know where you can leverage those biases to be helpful for you or where you need to sidestep some and have some of that awareness, is really what the book is about. It's about helping people to lead others through change, whether they're people who report to you on a team or arguably even more difficult if you're having to influence people who don't report to you so they have no incentive to do what it is that you want, which is a lot more difficult and often more important when we're trying to have that influence in our organizations.

Yeah, absolutely. This is really great. And now for the person who's out there in the workforce, why write this book now?

Well, and I felt this was so important that I started writing this book when I had a three month old at home. So, as you know, it was just the time that I knew that people are dealing with change so much. And it's, it's an aspect of Business that isn't going away and it shouldn't. But the problem is the way that we think about change is wrong, I guess, in the way that you think about change in an organization. And we like to think that it's just the really big stuff, it's a merger. We have to think about this. When we're changing our core processing systems or we're moving locations, we're rebranding, that's the change that matters and we need to ramp up for. And all those other little things just aren't that important and we don't put enough thought toward them. But the brain thinks and acts in micro decisions. So the Average person makes 35,000 decisions every single day. 35,000 decisions on average that we make every day, every person. And you think about half of that being work stuff. So when you look at all these little. I talk about it in the book as like snowflakes of change, right? So everything is piling in on this kind of snowball or, you know, a tundra of past bad decisions, of choices maybe, but the subconscious brain is making all those decisions every single day. And if we can make it a little bit easier and work with it, so things are piling in, you know, in the right way to get that snowball rolling. It's going to be working to our advantage. So you need to be looking at those micro moments, those micro change opportunities to help make it so that change is easier instead of saying, you know, it's a like, get people on board with change is like one item on a to do list. No, that that doesn't work.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And essentially what you're saying is we have to change the way that we think about change. And once we get a better understanding of the cognitive processes that that happen behind the scenes, like beneath the surface, then we can have a better understanding of how to manage effectively. When you think about managing this change, what would you say are the biggest barriers to doing that?

I think our own way that we like to think about presenting information and how our brains are biased ourselves. Right. So I know last time I was on the show we talked about confirmation bias. And so our brains are programmed to think that we are better, faster, stronger than everybody else, including the S of five minutes ago. We are very much wired to think that we are, we're less biased than other people, that we are more receptive to change, that the way that other people are doing things, if they're not in line with us, there's something wrong with them. We Just are all in on why we're the best. Our brains are kind of wired in this way. So understanding that there's a lot more out there, and I know you talk about this all the time, which is of course why we get along so well. But in the way that you go into any sort of change conversation, people tend to look for the way that they're going to win and convince that other person to be on the right team. Right. Get on board as quickly as you can with as little resistance as possible. And anybody who tries to rock the boat or asks questions needs to get out. Right. You don't belong here. And for one, change is difficult for people. Yes, but it doesn't have to be that hard. And you want to have people excited about the change. Change doesn't have to be presented in this way. That's saying, oh man, I know it just came down from the higher up, so don't shoot the messenger here, but we're going to have to be getting on board with this real quick. I need everybody to rally for this new initiative coming. Right? That's really set everybody up to feel like this is a terrible idea. Like you've made it so much harder when it doesn't have to be just in the way that you frame the information. So, you know, change is really about how the information is presented to people, not typically in the change itself.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yeah, that's really interesting because we talked earlier about how there's a bias against bias, but it seems like there is a bias about change where change has to be bad. And then it's almost like if you have that mentality and you go into the conversation with that mentality, it's going to bias the way that you communicate the message and it turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you go in. So I like to give the example of moving a desk. Right. So change doesn't have to be Even though I'm a behavioral economist, money doesn't have to be exchanging hands for this to all come into play. When it comes to change, I use the same model as I do for pricing strategy. Because you are still needing someone to buy in on whatever idea you're selling them on. Right. They need to take an action and we're constantly pitching for something. Right. And so in that process, though, if you are saying, you know, for moving the desk, you say, okay, I know you've just gotten settled in here and you really love where, where you are, and I know you've got a window and these good opportunities, but can you possibly, you know, get on board with, we're going to have to rally and make this happen. And it feels like that you're empathizing when you do that. Right? Like I'm getting on their level and showing that. I get that this is hard, but it just, it doesn't have to be this way, right? Where if instead you can present that information and say, hey, we have this opportunity to move to another area of the building. I've already scoped that out and based on the conversations that we've had over the years, I know that a great window is ideal for you. So I've scoped out this spot. I've already. I'm ready to talk to facilities, but. But before I pull the trigger, wanted to make sure that this is what you're. I'm meeting what you would be interested in having. Can you see yourself or you know, what would make you most excited about working in this new space. So it's very important in how you frame that. We're not talking about where they are, we're not talking about what they're giving up. Saying, I've been paying attention over time and taken this into consideration when I found this opportunity. Is there anything I'm missing? Please let me know because we have an option here. And how would you like, what would make you most excited in this new space? How can you see yourself being excited about this new opportunity? Is framing the brain for having some loss aversion and endowment effect working for you in the new space. Instead of lamenting over whatever it is that they're giving up.

This is so good. So, listeners, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pretend like I'm a sports commentator. What we're going to do real quick is we're going to rewind and we're going to do this in slow motion. Because Molina just dropped some bombs. There were a lot of Nuances there that we might have missed. So one thing that you did when you gave the example of how not to ask is that you, it sounded like a concession already. It sounded like you were losing already the voice. Like you said, you were empathizing or sympathizing. And you were almost like bracing for impact as you said that. And so it's, you're triggering the other person saying, they're saying to themselves, Molina is clearly signaling that something's very wrong. And so that's where their mind is going. And so just understanding the tone and the delivery, that by itself is persuasive. And then when I think back to another classic book, Thinking fast and Slow, we talk about essentially attention can be like a spotlight. And so when we are asking questions, what we're doing is we are guiding their attentional spotlight to focus on different things. And so you asked a really great open ended question. What would make you the most excited? And so what we're doing is we're guiding that attentional spotlight. And the answers that they've been, that they can give in that situation are focused on the positive. So you're starting that interaction with a positive momentum moving in the right direction versus the first example, which made me cringe. So I'm glad that you use that example. It's really good.

Yeah, definitely. And like you said, there's lots of nuance in there. And within the book I talk through there's. So there's a. Part one is essentially understanding the brain a little bit better. Things like the 35,000 decisions, many others talking about how the brain really works. So then understanding change and what management is about and all that. Part two is getting into some very specific work scenarios that are then looking at bias and at some of the concepts of behavioral economics that can be leveraged to overcome some of those. So people saying things like he always meets his goals, just do what he does, like talking about all the reasons why that is not a great approach to things. And also, you know, two weeks or like three weeks, we'll have it in two. That sort of thing that we hear all the time. And it doesn't have to be this way. So walking through nine of those scenarios that are broken into kind of a flow of a brain process and then merging it together. In my framework, which is called it's not about the cookie in the way that you present that information and bring it all together. And throughout the whole book I mix in little, what I call micro shift moments, little tiny things that you could go do something now to kind of get that little treat along the way, a little something that you can change that helps you get a little bit of success as you go. So an example of one of those, because I expect that you might have been asking what would be coming would be, think about, have you ever. And for everyone who has this as part of their email signature, know that no shame. It was a suggested thing, I think, for a long time from some of the phone companies. But there's the please excuse any typos sent from my phone thing that comes out there. Right. So if we think about the message that this is actually sending to people, it's intended to be very generous and thoughtful and saying, hey, like, sorry about this, but what you're actually saying is, hey, I'm too busy and important to proofread my email before I sent it to you. That's your job. And forgive me for any mistakes I made. That's on you.

So right. You are so right.

And even if people can't articulate that they feel that way, it's in every single email. So my argument here becomes like one, everyone who has that, you know, hit pause right now. Update that setting. You can change it. Let's get rid of that. If the email doesn't justify you going back and taking the time to proofread it, there's a question of if I even need to be sending it right now. Right. Do I need to send this information and is this the best way to be sending it? So my podcast always ends with me saying to be thoughtful. That's how I end my emails. That's my email signature. And really, one of the big tips in the book is looking at the communication that we send, being more thoughtful about why you're sending it, what you're trying to achieve, who you're sending it to, where they are, where you're looking for them to go, and being more thoughtful and intentional with the communication that you have so we can have less and it will be more effective.

I love that. This is really, really good. And yes, I remember those email signatures. Highly problematic. But I'm glad that you are championing the cause for good here. And I know when it comes to writing books, this is your second book, Right? And I know when I was writing my books, there were times where I was kind of surprised at what I found, either in the research or as I did, I dug deeper into myself. What were some of the biggest surprises for you as you were reading or writing this book?

Yeah, one of the things that was an article I Found that just has stuck with me and it ended up, it's at the very beginning of the book. So Gallup has an article, a study that they were talking about how when you look across managers and it's that 82% I believe. So if I'm off on the exact number, my apologies, but I believe it's 82% of managers do not have a natural talent for the job. Over 80% of managers are not supposed, are not meant to be managers as far. And that's where people get promoted because they've been in a role for a long time, they deserve it, they've put in the effort, whatever, but they're just not naturally gifted in that way. What they also found is they say 1 in 10 people just in general has the talent to be a great manager. One in ten. And that another two out of ten have the capacity to be trained to be a great manager based on these criteria of what they found from surveying hundreds of thousands if not millions of people to be able to determine what makes a great manager. So that means seven out of 10 will never be good. And that is making up over 80% of who are already managers. So that is important to note. But the advice that they gave within this particular article, which also was in the Harvard Business Review, is saying that good news is that most people don't manage more than 10 people. And if one in 10 has the natural talent to be a manager, the odds are that the right person for being the manager is already on the team. Yeah, but like, so how am I supposed to find that person? And I'm demoting the person who was the manager to say you don't have the natural talent, but Susie does. So she's now your boss because she, we think has the natural talent. And enjoy your new demotivated life of being not the boss anymore. Or if you wait for everyone just to leave, that's bad. But probably the people who are bad managers are the ones that are most likely to stay. If you have an organization of bad management. Right. It's just this terrible setup and it feels so demoralizing, like there's no hope. So we might as well just stick with what we have. And so as far as writing my book is giving these tips so that anyone who wants to be better, even if you are in that 7 out of 10, not that anyone would actually know, and our optimism bias wouldn't let us know that we are one of those odds are that you are, I guess all of us, right. Then you're able to Find some opportunity to understand the brain for both the way you present information and how people are receiving that information, how you communicate with others to be better at leading yourself and others. So I don't think that we have to be stuck to that stat anymore. And that's good, because it's a pretty depressing one.

Yeah, it is. It is. And it's funny. As you explained it more and peeled back the onion, it just got worse and worse. So that's so interesting. But again, I think it's really important for us to understand these things. And one of the things I enjoy about psychology is that it almost. It kind of depersonalizes the reality to a certain extent, because somebody could listen to this and then they could take it personally, like, oh, man, I'm a terrible manager. Oh, my goodness. Okay. But if I take the time and understand the psychology behind this and what I can do to improve those type of things now provides us with a framework and a path forward to improvement and getting better. So I think that's. That's really great. And one of the things that you talked about was your framework, and dare I say, you dropped some crumbs to the cookie framework. So can you tell us about that?

Sure. Yeah. So if you were to imagine we're walking down the street having a great conversation, we're all engrossed in that chat, and then all of a sudden, we smell this amazing scent in the air that draws us in, and it's a little bit sweet and salty, and we can tell it is chocolate chip cookies baking. We're talking to each other, but more like cartoon characters being guided by our noses down the street trying to find the source of this delicious scent. By the time we get then to the front of the store and we see that there's a line, and we wait, and we're building some anxiousness about that, and they say, oh, today only buy three, get one free. And we have samples. And we're so excited. Before we know it, we leave, each eating cookies, and with a bag in hand, right? Opposite situation. We're walking down the street, same conversation. Somebody comes, shoves a coupon in your face and says, today only. You know, I have cookies, and if you buy four, you only pay for three of them. And I have samples. Go, guy, get out of here. I don't want those. Right? And now we're having a conversation about bad sales experiences. And by the time we get in front of the store and see the line and we're taking note when we smell the cookies to write Yelp reviews about their bad tactics and we would never buy from them. And we are pitying those in line for how terrible they are compared to us. Right. In the first scenario they could have been $3 a piece and they were 50 cents in the other one. It wasn't about price in this case. Like I said, I use the same framework for pricing strategies I do for change. It's not about the cookie, it's not about the price we were definitely buying unless it was ridiculous. And they're like hundred dollar cookies in the first scen. And we are definitely not buying even if they're very inexpensive and a great value of a cookie. In the second scenario because of the way the information is presented. And there are multiple concepts of behavioral economics incorporated here we have priming and framing and loss aversion and herding and social proof reciprocity that are coming into play. But it's also important to note all the same thing happened. The same things happened in both scenarios, but in a different order. So understanding the concepts, being able to draw in with that the right scent of the cookies is very important to get the brain interested. And then you're following up and having everything else, you know, go in line along with that versus having that scent of the cookies be at the end. So that's the little bit about how it's not about the cookie. It's not about the change, it's not about the price, it's not about the item. It's about the way that that is presented is more important than the change itself.

This is great. And let me tell you, I think you have a future in the cookie lobby because now I want a cookie. I might doordash some crumble cookies right now. Yes. This is great. This is great. Yeah. And I know Melina, we could talk forever. And we know that to be true because we have tested.

We often do.

And so let's leave the listeners wanting more here. So let the listeners know again about your, your new book and how they can get in touch with you.

Absolutely. So the new book is what your employees need and can't tell you. Depending on when this comes out. It's already on pre sale. It has been for a while, so definitely that. But it might be available as it comes out October 11th of 2022 and it's where books are sold, right? Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, you can find it. You can also go to thebrainybusiness.com to find more about me, my books, my podcast, also the brainy business. And you can find me on the socials as the brainy biz B I Z.

Awesome, Melina. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

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