Winning the Compensation Negotiation With Leah Murphy

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Leah, thanks for joining us today.

It is such a pleasure to be here, Kwame.

Yes, it is our pleasure to have you, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah. So I am the president of Career Gyms for the Journey. We are a boutique consultancy that helps professionals build thriving careers in nonprofit leadership, corporate America, as well as academia. Right. So people are the lifeblood of the work that we do. And I'm super, super, super excited to help 10,000 women learn how to negotiate for more money. And you heard that, right? 10,000 women. And the reason why that is so important now more than ever is because information is power. Right? And we have this opportunity to really take wealth building into our own hands. And I think women, and especially women of color, are definitely not at the table when it some of those negotiation opportunities. So that's why we're here. That's why we exist.

This is great. I admire that. And Leah, I'm going to tell you, you might need to set your sights a little bit higher, because I know you have a great podcast, you have a great book. You already are building your audience. Can you tell your listeners a little. Tell my listeners a little bit about that work you're doing, too, with the POD and the book.

Yeah, for sure. So the Career Gems for the Journey podcast was really born out of this idea that lots of people wanted career coaching and needed it, but didn't what it was. Right. Weren't aware enough about it. So I had amazing clients that were all over the United States and actually quite a Few clients that were international. So the podcast really came out of how can I take the juicy, really deep rich content that my clients and I are sharing and make it a little bit easier to access for people who are all over the world? So the podcast is on all listening platforms. You can catch us on Apple Music or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And it is something that has been going on for about two and a half years now. So we have some really deep rich episodes that came pre pandemic, right? If that's even a thing for most people. It's hard to even fathom, but we were doing the podcast for quite a while now and it has really introduced us to people all over the world who are now thinking about leveling up in their career and operating with more intention. So the book Sally Power Moves, Winning the Compensation Negotiation, which will be out on Amazon shortly. So super, super excited about that. You're actually my podcast since we announced the launch of the book, so your listeners are getting brand new hot off the press information. And that book really came from a similar place. There were lots of clients who were getting amazing opportunities, right? Game changing jobs, getting offers, but they were below market and they felt ill equipped to navigate a salary negotiation. So I'm working in the lab, right, My clients and I, and we're building this really robust strategy to have them be successful. And after I did that about six or seven times, I said there must be a need. There's tons of people in the market who need this information. So I put it all together in an ebook. And the reason why I did an ebook was because I wanted anyone wherever they were in the world. You have access to a mobile device, to a phone, to a tablet or to a computer. I wanted you to be able to access salary, power moves, winning the compensation negotiation. So that's what's happening here in the background. And the book already has transformed so many people's experiences. My team actually is working in the background so that we can get all of our client feedback loops to be able to share with folks because now we're at the stage where we're so excited and the momentum is so high, we can't wait for folks to be able to access it on Amazon.

Oh, this is great. And everybody, we are going to have links to Leah's podcast and the book and the website in the description of the episode. So make sure you check that out. And now, Leah, let's transition into talking about salary because this is one of our most popular topics. We've addressed it in so many different ways with so many different experts. And I am excited to explore this with you. And when you think about it, let's actually take a step back before we start talking about strategies and tactics. What are some of the interesting patterns you've seen in the clients that you've worked with as it relates to salary negotiation?

Wow. So that's awesome. That's an awesome one. And you guys have been doing great work and negotiate anything. You guys have been having conversations on all sides of negotiation. So I'm thrilled, right, to be sitting in the seat to talk about salary, which is kind of my sweet spot. So here's what I'm saying. What I'm seeing is there are people who know how to negotiate and they're doing it regularly, right? Those people are often coached or have had access to valuable information and they're using it to their advantage. So many of my clients are powerhouse, dynamic, talented people, right? Some of them have master's degrees, doctor's degrees, JDs, you name it, right? So it's not an aptitude challenge, right? We have people who are bright, capable and determined and amazing clients, but some of them have never had that opportunity to negotiate because they don't even know they can. There are some people who are still challenged by the idea of like, is it appropriate for me to negotiate? Will I be perceived negatively if I do negotiate for more compensation for myself or even I don't even have the language? I know I should. I'm sure I should ask for more, but I don't know how to go about it. So those are some of the patterns that I'm seeing most frequently. Lots of my clients are women of color, and I think women of color have in some ways been left out of the conversation or left out of the training and development when it comes to getting those basic skills around negotiation. So because of that pattern, I know that it's not a skill, right? But it really is a matter of do we have the right language? Are they confident enough? And do they recognize the opportunity to show up and negotiate on their own behalf to really advocate for themselves? And oftentimes in corporate America, that can feel dicey, right? People don't want to damage the relationship or be perceived negatively, right? As the, you know, the word that lots of women get called and they don't want to be that. So my path to helping folks learn how to negotiate is really to think about it as a mutually beneficial, relationship, driven, respect, motivated conversation. I believe that if you show up as an advocate for yourself and the other side of the table values what you have, then there's an opportunity to have a mutually beneficial outcome, not necessarily a win win. Right. Because companies on some hands are always managing budgets. There's always a talent management professional who's in the background trying to make sure that they stay on budget. And as you navigate the conversation and as you, as the person on the other side think about what can I do? What are they not saying? What are the open ended, curious questions that I can ask to make sure that I give them an opportunity to get me to a yes, now you're cooking with grease. Right? So if we're not asking any questions, we're not negotiating. If we're not learning what the priorities are, to the person on the other side of the negotiating table, we're not negotiating well. And those are skills that take some time to develop. And I spent many, many years in corporate America negotiating multimillion dollar deals for clients and for companies. So now to be on the other side of the table and to be giving individuals these resources is such a game changer. And I'm hoping to be able to disrupt the pattern that I saw early on in my practice.

Oh, my goodness. There's so much that I want to go into. Let me give a quick synopsis. So what you found is that people are not struggling because it's an aptitude challenge. It's that they don't have confidence. They're unsure of whether or not it's going to be appropriate. There's potential negative stigma that they're afraid of if it's perceived negatively, and they're not quite sure what to say. But if you give them the skills, you give them the tools, the strategy, while at the same time addressing the mindset challenge, then they can negotiate really effectively. And I loved your definition of negotiation. Correct me where I go off on this, because I was scribbling very quickly. A mutual, beneficial, mutually beneficial conversation that's relationship driven and filled with respect. Something to that effect. Can you correct me where I went up there?

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops Scheduled for next year. If you think you might want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this.

Yeah, I think you got it all. The last part was around motivated by respect. Right. And the reason why that's really important is because if you are in a negotiation, and I've certainly experienced this, where the idea is someone has to lose. Right? Someone has to lose, and I have to squeeze everything I can out of this individual in order to feel like I was triumphant. That often is coming from a place that I don't respect what they have to offer, or I don't perceive them as equally as valuable as me. When I'm thinking about negotiation and I'm helping people learn the skill, the assumption is that you're sitting on the table from someone who values what you have to offer. And the same is true for you. And if you don't feel that, then you're not in the right negotiation. Right. So I actually encourage folks to think about it that way critically, before they even engage and potentially consider walking away. If the negotiation is not based on respect, then it's not a table that potentially you should be sitting at. And there might be a lot of energy that gets invested and still not getting to the outcome that you're looking for. So I really encourage folks to think about that respect element really critically.

Yeah, let's actually dig deeper into the element of respect, because I think it's really important. One of the best definitions of respect I heard, I believe it was from the book Crucial Conversations. They said respect is like oxygen. When it's here, you take it for granted, but when it's gone, it's the only thing you can think about. And we've all been in conversations where there was a lack of respect. And in my first book, I talk about conflict as a relationship test. Sometimes we are afraid of going into these conversations, these difficult conversations, whether it's a salary negotiation or a crucial conversation you have to have with a colleague or a loved one. And we're often afraid of what we'll discover. We're afraid of how they'll respond and things like that. But we need to know those things, because regardless of how the conversation ends up, we're testing the relationship. And if the person doesn't treat you with the requisite amount of respect in the conversation and they failed that test, and it might be time for you to move on.

Ooh. Oh, my gosh. You covered the basis so well. And I think that's part of the fear. The fear is if I know the truth, then am I still who I perceive myself to be? And sometimes that's where people get hung up. And I think about when I specifically when folks are thinking about salary and they hear back from the other side of the table, well, we don't think that you're valuable enough in order to pay you this much from a compensation standpoint, that's going to sting, right? That's going to hurt. But the fact of the matter is, are you accurate in what you believe your market value is? Have you done your research and are you prepared? Because if you are, then that person is not the right person for you to be negotiating with. And you thank them for the information and you move on to the right negotiation that's going to move you in the right direction. Now, there is a place where I like to talk about compensation. Total compensation is really important. Salary is one element of compensation and it's often the area where people get the most hung up. It is important, right? We need to make sure those dollars and cents in your paycheck make sense, right? But there are all kinds of other areas in compensation where if you ask the right questions or if you're well informed and well researched about the organization, you can find additional compensation in paying for graduate school, in student loan forgiveness, in relocation expenses, in long term incentives, all of these other places that are outside of salary. So I really try to encourage folks, if you're in a conversation, right, and you're feeling like the respect is there, but you can't move the needle on salary, maybe ask some more open ended questions in a curious way, sincerely, about other ways that you can be compensated because all of those things turn into a dollar value, right? Time is money, right? So getting more PTO is also another form of money. So as we think about salary negotiation and compensation negotiation, the more broad we can go to give people an opportunity to get us to a yes. That always helps to learn more about what the other side is willing to give on. And not to be too narrow in our focus and only come down to the dollar value. But that only happens after you believe that they respect you, you believe that it's mutually beneficial and there's some value that both of you can bring. Now it's about exploring where that value is going to come from and how we're going to go about getting it.

So a couple of things here, Leah, because I really like this because again you, I like that you brought back the respect conversation too. We don't graduate in this conversation until we have established that there is mutual respect. That's really important. And so I think that's really important to make sure that we're sequencing the conversation appropriately. Now, I am 100% with you on the importance of focusing on total compensation. Definitely with you there. And at the same time, I know you've probably seen it, there is a little bit of resistance to transition to an overall compensation package versus the big, bright and shiny salary. So in order for people to fully embrace this, I feel like we need to acknowledge the emotional challenge people have to thinking more broadly about compensation. What is it that keeps people so stuck on salary?

I think what you said, the emotional connection to salary, right? When I think about career, and I like to say career is integral to life, so it really reflects how we spend our time and how we bring in resources to our household, however your household looks. So as you think about career, it's integral to our life, which then definitely impacts our identity. So when we think about having an emotional connection to salary specifically, a lot of us and myself included, have been raised to think about a dollar value in salary as a definition of success. Right? I make X number of dollars every year, so that means I have access to these things and that means that I'm successful. Right? So we're taking a couple of leaps there. But I don't think it's too far for your audience to think it that way. Then when you think about, okay, well, if that dollar value doesn't match my version of success, well, what does that mean? But I try to encourage folks to think about it as dollars live in a number of different locations and they can operate under different names, Right. Dollars can live under long term incentives, which can be stock options, right? Like actual stock or options for stock in the future. Those are dollars. Right. And a lot of folks may not have had these kind of conversations. We're certainly not teaching it in college. We're absolutely not teaching it in high school. So if you think about people who are coming into the workforce, especially those who are early career, if you don't have mentorship or sponsorship or a coach like me who can help you navigate some of these opportunities, navigate these other places to search for compensation, then you're left out, right? And now we're talking about an inequitable understanding of what options are on the table, because we can. I've seen tons of examples. I'll give one client where base salary was where they wanted to be. We'll say base salary was $105,000. Right. Doing pretty well according to national standards. National standards also align to their location. Right. They're based out of Atlanta. So $105,000 in Atlanta, that works. But what they didn't understand at that time was there was also this opportunity to be able to have another $70,000 in long term incentives. They came to me, we had a conversation, they told me about the organization they were working for. I had a previous client who had worked for that organization and had gotten a more robust compensation package. They gave them the salary that they wanted, and because the client didn't know to ask any more questions, they left it there. Unfortunately, I see this happen all the time. It's not because the client didn't ask the right question about salary because they got to where they wanted to get. However, there was a lot more money that was left on the table that may have been in other areas. But without knowing that it exists, what is one to do? Right. So that's kind of why the book is so important, because it actually gives you not only the language, but it gives you an opportunity to ask probing questions so you learn more about what the company is willing to offer and then you can determine how valuable that is to you and think about total compensation that way.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's great. And one of the things that you just mentioned, you can determine what probing questions you want to ask beforehand. That goes back to what you said earlier. If you're not asking questions, then you're not negotiating. I think that's really brilliant. And I'm excited for the listeners to be able to dig into your book and actually see that play by play, like how they can approach it, what to say, what to do, those type of things. So it simplifies that process. And one of the things that I'm. That I've used in the past with some other clients and just in other negotiations too, is trying to find a dollar value for some of the intangible things. Because for some of the things in your compensation package, you could say, all right, this health insurance costs this much, these benefits cost this much. I can put a dollar value pretty clearly and objectively there. But one time I was working with somebody and she was transitioning from the legal firm field to another field. And I said, how much would you pay per year to not have a partner yell at you ever again? And she's like, oh, I'd give up 50k for that, you know. And so we kind of went, continue to go through this little exercise, and I hope it helped her to realize that. Yeah, I'm thinking about compensation just in terms of money and the other benefits, but I'm always. I haven't done a good job of thinking about the intangibles. And so when you're talking to your clients about some of those intangibles benefits of a certain career path, what are some of those things that you encourage them to negotiate?

For? Sure. So some of the intangibles that come up really often are culture. Right. What's the culture and the environment that you're working in? I think you illustrated that with your example a moment ago. Operating in a culture that is a good fit for you. And sometimes you can't negotiate that with the talent management professional, but you can certainly talk to your hiring manager about that. Right. Expectations and engagement and culture, overall methods of communication. The other intangibles that are really important are really autonomy, decision making rights, budget control. Right. So those are things that really make a huge difference in your ability to do your job effectively and in order to hire people potentially on your team, if that's necessary. But if you don't have the right decision rights in order to do your job successfully and there's bureaucracy and red tape, inevitably that makes your job harder. So as you think about negotiation against intangibles, who has control over X number of dollars, who has control over X decision? And who's facilitating these conversations? Right. Am I in the room right when these kinds of conversations are happening, when critical decisions are being made? And that's something that oftentimes I've seen hiring managers not even think through, like, oh, well, I had never thought about that. Well, great. Now's an ideal time for us to discuss it. Right. And potentially before I accept your offer, you can go forward and align other team so that everyone's on the same page. And now I have the opportunity to come in seated for success. Right. And then you now are moving faster. Right. You're able to get to your results and deliver your quick wins in a way that builds momentum rather than negotiating that after you're in the organization and there's, you know, there's muddy water to navigate.

Exactly. So essentially what we're saying is a lot of times we focus the negotiation on what we need to do and then how much we get paid for that. But we don't take the time to actually negotiate how we get to do what we do. And I think that's a really, really important part of the process. And that's actually not something I thought about before. I think that's really, really smart.

Awesome, awesome. I'm glad. So I'm glad to hear it. Here's one thing that I can tell you for sure that I've learned throughout this process is negotiation applies in every level of business. No matter what you're doing, no matter what your role is, no matter what your title is in the organization that you're in, there is a negotiation to be had. But it's really a matter of you developing that skill set and building the confidence to be able to show up to that negotiation or to see the opportunity as one that you can negotiate to make more advantageous for yourself or your team or for your organization. So some of it is just the awareness. Right. You talked about mindset in the very beginning is to think about negotiation as a method to get. Get to the end result that we're looking for. Not a method to use against someone, but a method to have a conversation in a way that's going to be productive based on mutual respect so that we can get to the best end result.

I know we're coming up on time, but I have to ask you this question. I've been wondering, what is the most creative salary negotiation, deal, offer, whatever it happens to be that you've seen in your experience?

And I love that you said creative. Right. Because I think oftentimes people believe this is this linear, very formal, kind of stagnant process. But I've seen people get real creative. When you want talent and you want someone whose market value is high, you're going to do what it takes to get them right. So the example that comes to mind when you ask that question is I had a client who was relocating to the other side of the country and in her relocation process, she was asking for base salary, long term incentives, and they couldn't get to where she wanted to get on base salary. Right. Kind of what we talked about earlier. And then they started asking her more questions about, well, what can we do? We're kind of really at our ceiling here. And she said, well, my family's also relocating with me and I need to make sure that they're made whole. So the company then goes off and brings in resources to give her husband a job at the same organization and also to write a letter of recommendation to this really elite private school that she was interested in getting into for her child. So the chro of the organization wrote the letter for a child to get into this private school because it was midway through the year and she was thinking, well, I can't disrupt them. And there were all these things that she was really trying to make sure she was aligned to, and they gave her husband a job. So it was one of those things where there wasn't a $1 value. Right. That allowed them to navigate and get her to say yes, but to make her family whole and then asking the questions about what else it was that she needed in order to. Yes. And they delivered against it. And she was with the organization for many years, and I think she won. And they definitely won because they got a really powerhouse talent.

Oh, that. That is good. That is good. So, everybody, next time you're in your next salary negotiation, just cite Leah Murphy and say, I want a job, and I want you to employ my whole family and see what happens. Now that. That is great. That is so good. Well, Leah, before you go, let the listeners know again about your podcast, your book, and how they can work with you.

For sure. Kwame, this has been an amazing experience. Thank you so much. This literally made my day. And, you know, that's saying something. I know you guys do great work, and I'm really excited about the opportunity for folks to be introduced to my podcast, the Career Gems for the Journey podcast. It's available on all listening platforms. Wherever you get your podcast content, make sure you type us in and give us a listen. Lots of great, really rich episodes. Focus on career, focus on salary negotiation. Just all the things we touched on today. And the book Salary Power Moves, Winning the Compensation Negotiation will be available on Amazon shortly. Please do take advantage of the opportunity to get a great digital copy of the book so you can take advantage and get all these career gems for your journey.

Perfect. And listeners remember links to everything and the book in the description. Leah, thanks again. Really appreciate it.

Awesome. Thank you. Have a great day.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team, so welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep. Keep learning, keep practicing and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.