Candida Overgrowth: Symptoms and Solutions

Hi, this is your host, Lindsey Parsons, with The Perfect Stool: Understanding and Healing the Gut Microbiome. My deepest apologies for making you wait so long for this latest episode. Tragically, I recorded with Dr. Joseph Petrosino from Baylor University and then discovered that his side of the conversation didn't record. And we had a great conversation about the research going on in his center involving autism and cancer treatments in the microbiome. But unfortunately, that one may be lost to posterity. And then I had a couple of trips this month, so I wasn't able to record for a bit. So I'm so sorry about the wait, but today we have an episode I know you'll find interesting and useful with Dr. Rabia Megji, a naturopathic doctor from Alberta, Canada, city of Calgary, who will be talking with us about Candida overgrowth in the gut. And she has been practicing for 14 years and works on gastrointestinal health issues, autoimmune issues, allergies, women's health, hormones, fertility, and more. So I know you'll enjoy our conversation and don't forget to press subscribe so you won't miss future episodes. And with that, let's get to the episode.

Hi, Dr. Rabia. Thanks so much for being on.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, so we are going to be talking about Candida today. So let's start out with what is Candida and what kind of symptoms might indicate that someone has it.

So Candida is a type of fungal infection. It is— there's a few different strains of Candida. But, um, it does tend to inhabit the large colon or the large intestine in small amounts in all humans. So that's normal to have some Candida in your system. But when it becomes a problem is when it overgrows and then it starts to wreak havoc on the digestive system and on the immune system at large. So a person whose Candida has overgrown may have symptoms like bloating, gas, food sensitivities. They may feel tired after they eat, uh, brain fog. And then if the immune system is overwhelmed by the Candida, it can cause generalized inflammatory symptoms. So you may get autoimmune-like symptoms, so joint pain, headaches, generalized, uh, malaise, fatigue, trouble sleeping, troubles with memory, focus, concentration. So the Candida overgrowth can be far-reaching as part of an overall inflammatory picture. And so when we are clinically looking at a person's health concerns, whether they are digestive or autoimmune, Candida is definitely part of my workup.

And so Candida could be at the root of an autoimmune disease?

Correct.

And does that mean that if you correct the Candida, you can get rid of the autoimmune disease?

That is very plausible, yes. It may be— autoimmune diseases can be very complex, so it may not just be the Candida causing the autoimmune, but I have seen it as a very large contributing factor for many people's autoimmune diseases.

And you mentioned there were several strains. Is— can you name those strains?

There's quite a few. Candida albicans is the one that's going to come up most often, like for example, in a vaginal swab. That's the one they're usually looking for. But yeah, there, there are many Candida strains out there, which I don't even— I can't even name all of them. But the Candida albicans is usually the one that is going to be named on some of the testing that, that we do.

And so how much is a normal amount of Candida versus an excess?

Okay, well, it all depends on the testing type we do. So I often do stool analysis. So the stool analysis I use indicates that when they're looking at the stool sample, the normal amount of Candida show— should be minimal, so none to rare. And when it's overgrown, they start to measure it at few, moderate, many. So it'll vary between labs and, and what kind of lab testing we're doing. For example, if we do organic acid testing, that's, that's a nice way to test Candida as well. That'll give us a measurement from, from their lab, what their parameters are in terms of Candida markers in the urine. So it really just depends on the type of lab test that you use to, to test for Candida. And they'll give you the normal parameters and whether you fall outside of those normal parameters.

And what— where does the Candida show up in the organic acids test?

So there are dysbiosis markers on an organic acid test where it'll say Candida species. It'll also list for beneficial bacteria and for certain other types of bad bacteria like Clostridium and such. So again, so you want to probably get some clinical advice with that when doing that kind of test. So if you, you do that test and then your Candida species comes up high or other things, other dysbiosis markers come up high, then we know that there is likely to be an overgrowth.

And to clarify, that is a urine test, correct?

Correct, yes.

And that's— is that Great Lakes?

Great Plains Laboratory is the one that I use.

Yeah, right. Okay. And then, and who, who do you use for the stool testing?

I use Doctor's Data. I've used Genova and Metametrix in the past before, and— but I find Doctor's Data, that, that's the one that I really find to be the most reliable. And they are amazing gastroenterology lab. They go down to DNA level, so they're not just going to be looking for Candida under the microscope. They're going down to the DNA level in the stool to see if that's— if it's showing up there.

And where are they located?

They are located in Illinois. Oh, okay.

So tell me about the differences in the symptoms between Candida and SIBO, or small intestine bacterial overgrowth.

Okay, so Candida and SIBO, sometimes the symptoms can very much overlap.

There are—

with the SIBO, I tend to find it's a lot of constipation or diarrhea, especially constipation. Patients who have SIBO, I find the big difference between Candida and SIBO is that patients who have SIBO cannot tolerate probiotics. They cannot tolerate broad-spectrum probiotics, so they cannot take anything that has lactobacillus in it.

And then what's the reaction?

So they tend to feel worse. They feel more bloated, more gassy, more stomachaches. When they take the probiotics. So if they have SIBO, then we're careful about the kind of probiotics they take.

I'll—

we'll recommend a Bifidum-only probiotic, something like Align. I think you guys have that in the States.

Yeah.

And then they can do okay. So if they have Candida or they have SIBO, they can take a Bifidum probiotic. But if they take a multi-strain probiotic, they tend to feel Worse, I find also with the SIBO, again, there's a lot of overlapping. So digestive issues, bloating— bloating is probably— it's both, but especially SIBO, I would say. So having bloating, not tolerating probiotics. Oh, and a big one, not tolerating fiber. That's the big one with SIBO is that you cannot take Prebiotics, you can't take seeds, beans, lentils, nuts, and you feel worse. You try to take Metamucil fiber or, you know, ground flax or any of those kinds of fibers and you feel worse. Whereas with Candida, you should feel better because prebiotic is feeding the lactobacillus and the other probiotics. So it's helping your Candida. Mm-hmm. Whereas with the SIBO, because SIBO is often— Lactobacillus is one of the strains that have overgrown in the small intestine. You're feeding that Lactobacillus where it's not supposed to be, and it makes you feel worse.

So the Bifidobacteria don't grow in the small intestine. Is that the gist of it?

Yes, that, that's true. Yes. So Bifida, the Bifidobacteria, if you take that, you'd just be supporting the large intestine. And so that's Yeah, that's certainly the best, best way to go if you do have SIBO.

And I know we're supposed to be talking about Candida, but just curious about SIBO since I'm curing myself of a bout of it right now.

Okay.

Can you go back on those foods once you— I'm not just— I know you can't indefinitely stay on a low FODMAPs diet, but yes, all those, all those foods and the probiotics, are those the kind of things for people who are prone to SIBO should just stay off of for the rest of their lives, or No, I, I don't believe that.

I feel that once we've handled the SIBO, you should be able to eat fibrous foods. You should not have to be on a low FODMAP, but you should stay away from lactobacillus probiotics. No, that actually— that's one of the recovery things with my patients that I do, is that once they have recovered from SIBO, they should be able to take broad-spectrum probiotics again. That's actually a very important part of the healing process. So I haven't done my job correctly if a person has to avoid fiber and prebiotics and probiotics for the rest of their life because they've had SIBO. If the SIBO is thoroughly resolved, you should absolutely be able to go back to taking broad-spectrum probiotics and eating beans, lentils, raw veggies, nuts, seeds. So what I do in my SIBO treatments— of course, there is a recovery phase after the antibiotic and herbal antibiotic protocol where you do the anti-SIBO or low FODMAP diet for about 4 weeks, and then you reintroduce everything.

Okay, so back to Candida. Um, I went online and I saw that there was a saliva test for Candida. Do you have any sense of how reliable that is?

I've had patients do it over the years just to, you know, they, yeah, they put the saliva in a glass and they see if it, if the saliva falls down. I mean, that's like a kind of a real, like a home, home test sort of thing. It's not going to really give us a lot of concrete information. Like I said, I like to have, you know, more numbers behind it or like, you know, even with, like I said, the Dr. Z data test where they tell us none, rare, few, moderate, many, but they also species it out. They also tell us what species of fungus or Candida they found, and it could be other ones like Saccharomyces and Geotrichum or other types of fungal infections. So with the saliva test, you're just getting a really like, like a vague sort of a gross measurement of whether you might have it or not. Yeah, like, yeah, for sure. Yeah, if somebody's at home and they just curious and they're not ready to kind of you know, really get into the in-depth testing, then for sure do it at home. It's, it's not going to hurt, but we probably want to get some more in-depth information, right?

So has mainstream medicine begun to recognize systemic Candida overgrowth at all, or will most traditional allopathic doctors just look at you funny if you say you think you have a Candida overgrowth?

Yeah, unfortunately, I don't know how it is, how the climate is in, in the U.S., but in Canada mostly it's not really recognized unless you have some sort of an immune compromised illness like HIV or end-stage cancer where you're on such heavy immunosuppressant medication where you're pretty much susceptible to anything, right? You're susceptible to pneumonia. And so Candida is one of them. And that's where they'll say that that's, that's the only place that they see it, but that's not really true. I mean, we know that there's oral thrush when a woman is breastfeeding, feeding and the baby gets that and it's on the nipple. Of course, we recognize vaginal yeast infections. But yeah, I, I find that doing the testing helps the doctor to, to come around a bit on it. But yeah, I do still get a lot of from the doctors, well, it's, it's just normal, everybody has Candida. Well, the use of antibiotics, as we know, has been they've been overused in a lot of cases. I know that was definitely the case for myself, and I still see it done with many of my patients, though many doctors are doing better with that and recognizing a virus is a virus, right? A cold is not going to be treated by an antibiotic. Like, most ear infections are, you know, do not require antibiotics. Bronchitis, often viral, so many infections that we often get during cold and flu season are not requiring an antibiotic, but it's the ones that still do prescribe antibiotics too quickly without even testing. That's frustrating. And because then if we're not putting probiotics in right after and really supporting the, the gut to reinoculate the good bacteria, The yeast is an opportunistic infection, so the yeast is going to move into its place. And yeah, the sooner we start recognizing that, then the more I can get more patients help, because unfortunately in my jurisdiction I cannot prescribe medications or pharmaceuticals, but I often would like to for nystatin. Nystatin is a really safe fungal medication. It's given to children who are— babies who are breastfeeding and have thrush. It's really, really safe. But yeah, unless, unless a doctor will recognize that yes, this person is showing signs of Candida and that they've had multiple antibiotics or immunosuppressant, PPIs, steroidal medications, birth control pills, then— and that they may have, you know, they need help with the Candida, then I can get the nystatin. So But yeah, it's, it's still a bit of an uphill battle.

I'm going to just back you up. PPIs are proton pump inhibitors, correct? Such as, what are the current ones that people are using?

Pantoloc, Nexium, uh, Prevacid. Those are at least the common names. Pantoprazole, that's the, um, yes, omeprazole. Yeah. Okay.

So yeah, you were, so you were getting into what you treat Candida with.

Yes.

What do you use?

Okay. So in cases where I have more of a severe or, you know, case where either the organic acid test or the stool test is showing up high levels, then I may send the person back to their doctor with their report and of course their clinical picture and ask for nystatin. And then I'll use it for several months because nystatin is gentle and it's safe, but it needs to be used for a little bit longer period of time than for example, something like Diflucan or fluconazole. Fluconazole is hard on the liver, and so we— it's not my first choice, but sometimes medical doctors are, you know, they're more, for some reason, more comfortable with that, at least where I am, because I've been— yeah, I've seen over 10,000 patients now in 14 years of practice. So I find that they may be more comfortable prescribing Diflucan for a week or two, and then giving Nystatin for 3 months, which Nystatin is not toxic to the liver at all. It actually is a non-absorbed antifungal, which means it goes into the large intestine and it stays there, and it does not go into the bloodstream. Whereas Diflucan or fluconazole, it does go into the bloodstream. And so for that reason, we have to be very concerned about the side effects, especially on the liver. So, I'll ask for that nystatin, and if I can't get the nystatin, then I may just take the 2 weeks of Diflucan. Again, if that's a, if it's a severe case, I know somebody's got, based on, again, based on labs, that they're, they're on the severe side, that they, they need a strong medication. And if I'm not getting medication, then of course I'll use a— I, I've heard it called, uh, one of my— one of the courses I went to for, uh, when we're talking about Candida, fungal parade is one, one, uh, professor called it, or antifungal parade, which means we're rotating antifungals. So we'll use herbal ones, like I'll often use caprylic acid as one of my first ones because it's really effective. It actually breaks breaks down the cellular layer of the Candida, or the— it'll like break down the capsule, which is very helpful. And so caprylic acid I may even use in conjunction with nystatin or diflucan. I may use oregano oil, I may use grapefruit seed extract, I might use pau d'arco, I like berberine. One of the nice things about the Doctor's Data test is it actually gives us sensitivity list. So it tells us which pharmaceutical and herbal antifungals actually work for that patient, which is really nice. So then it will, it will tell us which ones are most effective and we can use that as a guide.

And is that based on the strain that they have?

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. And so you'll use those in sequence. So, so some period of time for each one, is that?

Yeah, I would say about, um, so we, we have to worry about just like antibiotic resistance, antifungal resistance. And so I would not use one antifungal usually for more than a month at a time.

Okay. And how long does it usually take to clear up an infection?

It all depends on the severity. So, you know, if you have a mild case, maybe 2 or 3 months. If you have a severe case, realistically, maybe even a couple of years.

Wow.

So depending on, yeah, how severe it is, or again, what, which medications we have access to, it certainly would speed up the process to be able to use something like nystatin or diflucan. But if it's not available, then we'll use the herbs. And you know what the reality is, we have to worry about die-off, and die-off is, or the Herxheimer effect, is very common. And if the person is already weak from autoimmune illness or from just from dealing with the Candida, the pharmaceuticals might be too strong in terms of a die-off. So, and we again have to decide clinically whether that person is more suited towards the herbal antifungals, and it will just take longer, but at least then they're comfortable and they're not having to deal with the die-off, which is like the worsening before it gets better. It's the body releasing all the toxins that are coming out. So, so again, that's part of my clinical assessment is seeing how strong a person is, how well they're detoxifying, if their detox pathways are healthy or not, sort of how good their vital energy is, what, what are, what's going on hormonally and sleep and, you know, lifestyle. And then, of course, the other two parts of my treatment plan are probiotics. And often prebiotics, and then the anti-Candida diet.

And so backing up a little bit on the detox, do you use something to mop up those toxins as they're coming out?

Absolutely. So I will sometimes even just do it before. So with my Candida plan, my SIBO plan, for a week or longer before starting the antimicrobials, I'll start with liver support so that the person starts to be ready for the toxins coming out. So either NAC or turmeric, milk thistle, artichoke, lemon and water, castor oil packs, saunas, dry skin brushing. So we do a combination of probably a couple of methods to make sure that the, the body is detoxifying because yeah, then the process of trying to kill off the Candida or the SIBO is so difficult. Like the person feels worse, right?

Mm-hmm. And so, but do you use anything like activated charcoal or?

I sometimes might use activated charcoal. So that one is good at, yeah, mopping up the toxins, but it's, I really want to more focus on the liver, right? And the liver being part of digestion as well. So I'll use activated charcoal maybe in conjunction conjunction to liver support, but my first goal is always to use liver support.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

So tell me more about the diet that you put people on.

Of course.

For Candida.

So I, I don't tend to be as crazy on the diet as I've seen some on the internet and stuff. And people will come in knowing about Candida and saying, oh, you know, I don't eat any fruit, I don't eat any grain, I don't eat any vinegars or mushrooms or things. I focus on 3 major things with the diet, and the reason I do that is because I think people who are doing it on their own are relying on diet alone to get rid of their Candida, whereas if they're doing the— my 3-pronged approach, which is to do antimicrobials plus liver support plus probiotics plus the diet, the diet doesn't have to be so restricted. So I focus on 3 things. One is sugar, so refined sugar, processed sugar. So no sugary drinks, no candies, cookies, that kind of stuff. And the second being alcohol, and the third being, uh, yeast-containing foods. So just to give up the bakery goods. So no breads, no pastries, cakes, muffins, that kind of stuff. So just to stick with like rice and quinoa. And if they want to have like a like a flatbread or something like that, then, then that's okay. But yeah, that's— those are the 3 major things I focus on. Try not to get bogged down on so many restrictions.

And do Candida react to the sugar alcohols like xylitol?

Or— yes, they do. Oh, xylitol is okay. Yeah, xylitol is okay. But this stuff— yeah, yeah, the other ones I would generally avoid.

Yeah.

Okay, great.

Forgive me this short interruption, but I just wanted to take 30 seconds and share about my work as a health coach with you. So recently I've worked with a number of women who are hypothyroid, which is almost always Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Unfortunately, lots of doctors don't recognize that they're dealing with Hashimoto's when patients have hypothyroid, and they don't even test for autoimmune antibodies. So my clients often don't realize they're dealing with an autoimmune disease. Since autoimmune diseases often come in threes, it's important to recognize and deal with autoimmune issues as such. So I have a protocol I use with my clients that involves an elimination diet, determining food sensitivities, restoring gut health, and improving liver detoxification in order to start to reverse the autoimmune process. And I can work not just with people with Hashimoto's thyroiditis but with any autoimmune condition. So if you suffer from autoimmune disease and would like to start to reverse it naturally, please reach out and schedule a discovery session and we can talk about how I could help you. You can email me at Lindsey— that's L-I-N-D-S-E-Y— at highdeserthealthcoaching.com to set up a session.

And then the probiotics, which ones do you like?

Okay, so presumably like what I'm doing now, because I'm treating so much SIBO too myself, is I'm testing the person for SIBO as well. And if they don't have SIBO— well, if they did have SIBO, we treat that first. And then treat the Candida. If they do have— if they do not have SIBO, then I know they can take broad-spectrum probiotics, which is fantastic. And if I'm doing the stool test, which is what I'm often doing, or the organic acid test, because it also does tell us about the good bacteria, so then I know also the levels of a person's good bacteria and which strains they're deficient in. So usually I'll use something at least like a 50 billion or 100 billion if they're really lacking in the good bacteria, which is often the case with the Candida, there's just this real dichotomy, right? So high Candida and really low good bacteria. That's probably the most common scenario I'll see. Then I may even go up to doses of 500 billion probiotics for a couple months just to really make sure the Candida doesn't come back.

500 per day.

500 billion, yes.

So is that like a VSL3, or it's got a new name now, right?

Yeah, similar. We have one, and we have one, um, that's more accessible to us than VSL, which is the HMF 50 billion. It's by Genestra.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, that one is— it's, it's easy for us to get, and it's, it's just one packet a day. So it's a powder, and you would just, yeah, use one sachet a day. So I may do that with patients for for a couple of months. Once, yeah, in either in conjunction to antifungals or after, just to again really make sure that we don't— after all that hard work, we do not want the Candida to come back.

And so the— you said the HMF 50 billion?

Uh, 500.

Or 500 billion?

Okay, I'll start with 50. Like, everyone will get at least a 50 when they're— when they're doing Candida treatment, but depending on how deficient their good bacteria is, I may go up to 500 billion.

And I imagine that's gotta get pretty expensive in terms of probiotics.

It, that can be expensive. Yeah. I think the cost on that's about $90, $95 for the month.

Mm-hmm. And then, uh, are you using HMF probiotics as well at the 50 and 100 billion levels?

The 50 billion, I like the Pure Encapsulations one. Mm-hmm. That one's pretty decently cost-effective at 60 caps for about $58, so that's Canadian dollars. So that's— yeah, that one is very, very well tolerated. Like, I find, you know, having— I have to be careful about the FOS. Some people are sensitive to FOS. So yeah, the Pure 50 Billion is the one I'll often use.

Okay, so you said this can go on, the treatment could go on for even years if it's just using the botanicals. So during that time, basically you've told somebody for 2 years you can't have any added sugar? Is that the gist of it?

No, I, I mean, I, I don't— I think I'm pretty reasonable that way, that a person is going to be as strict as they can, but they're— especially if we know this is going to be a longer-term treatment, then of course they're going to be able to have their cheat days, right? Especially if we're progressing well with the, with the antifungals. Again, I don't like reliance of just diet on trying to get rid of Candida because, yeah, you're going to be working at it for pretty much forever. So if we've got the antifungals in the mix and a person has a birthday, a special occasion, traveling, like it's okay. Yeah, I don't find that it's going to mess up the treatment if a person is gonna have a cheat day here and there.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

And so you're saying you'd have to work at it for the rest of your life. So the implication is that it will recur easily in somebody who's already had an overgrowth?

No, so I'm only saying that— I'm saying that if you, if you relied on your diet alone to get rid of Candida, then you might be working on it for quite a long time. But with the use of the antifungals and the high-dose probiotics as well, and in some, and in some cases too where I feel like it's a, it's a stubborn Candida case, I may also use a biofilm film buster, like something like Interphase Plus. So I may add that into the mix. But if we've got those— at least that three-pronged approach going, then it should be something we can get rid of and get rid of it for good. So unless something really disrupts the flora again. So for people who seem to have— who've had Candida in the past and they need to go on a round of antibiotics, I'm gonna jump on them right to get lots of probiotics into their system and perhaps even do like a 2-week Candida cleanup if they've had antibiotics, because we know that they're— they've struggled with it in the past and we want to be proactive about it.

And so what will you use for that cleanup?

Uh, same sort of thing, probably just, yeah, 2 weeks of caprylic acid and/or grapefruit seed extract or berberine. Something we've used in the past. But again, we don't want to do one herb for more than a month at a time without taking a break. So yeah, I'll just— having now worked with patients for 14 years, and some of them have been coming to me for quite a while, they'll— will be able to be like really proactive about it. That, okay, well, you just had a round of antibiotics, you're really sick, let's make sure we've done a good Candida cleanse now after that. So that you're not going back to where you were.

And so during the, the antibiotics, you won't put them on anything like S. bilardi or?

Yes, yes, absolutely I would. Yeah, we would do. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good idea. If they don't tolerate S. bilardi, then I'll still do, uh, like a 50 billion probiotic, but just try to take it as far away from antibiotics as possible. But where people are taking antibiotics, like, uh, TID, QID, so 3 or 4 times a day, then taking S. boulardii certainly makes a lot more sense.

Right. And otherwise you might as well just wait till you're— they're done to spend your money on antibiotic or probiotics so you're not just killing them every day.

Yeah. Well, unless they're having diarrhea, like if they're having active symptoms, then I'm just gonna have them take it anyways, even if it's getting killed, and because it's better to— the, the research that helping a person who's got antibiotic-related diarrhea would still benefit from taking probiotics during the antibiotic therapy. So, so yeah, I would just see how it's going, whether we would do that then or after.

Now, so some of these, uh, botanicals that you've mentioned, are they also gonna be killing off good bacteria and, and so do you need to stop them for a period and, and build back up? In between, or—

I find most of them are quite good in that sense. I would say grapefruit seed extract, maybe a little bit clinically. I mean, I think not everyone will have the same opinion, but I find that, yeah, with grapefruit seed extract it may. So I always, always recommend probiotics while taking any of these antifungals anyways, so we shouldn't have to run into that problem. Problem.

Okay, so, but in the case of SIBO, when you're trying to stay away from probiotics— yeah, other than perhaps the bifida ones, or are you— you're clearing the SIBO first and then—

well, yeah, I don't use grapefruit seed extract in SIBO, but I'll use, of course, Rifaximin and then berberine, oregano oil. So I find those ones are okay to take on their own without probiotic, but if I, again, clinically, if the person is seeming to be maybe getting more loose stool or again, sort of feeling a bit worse, then yes, at least I can put them on bifidum and I know we're good to go. Like bifidum is absolutely safe to use throughout the SIBO treatment.

And you were saying Align is the one you use in that case?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great. So What if you find that a person does have— they have Candida, they have SIBO, they have parasites, they sort of have everything. Can you treat them all at once, or how do you do that?

I do it like kind of like a hierarchy. So I treat H. pylori first if it's— if they have that. And because— so cases of reflux can be all 3 organs, you know, that have got dysbiosis. So I'll treat H. pylori first because it's in the stomach, and then I'll treat the placebo, and then I'll treat whatever in the large colon. So that's usually parasites. I mean, of course we know parasites can be in the, in the liver and the blood and things like that. But yeah, that's how I find things work the best. And I'll do the large colon last, again because of the probiotic issue, right? Because I want the person to be able to get on a broad-spectrum probiotic, but we have to get rid of the SIBO first. So So that's, that's my method of treatment. So stomach first, small intestine, and then large intestine, which is the parasites, the Candida, and of course bacterial overgrowth in the, in the, in the large colon. I'll treat at that time as well.

And what do you use for H. pylori?

With H. pylori, I do, yeah, to be honest, try to avoid, avoid the HPAC unless somebody is resistant to everything else. That's available to us.

Is that, is that a—

or the triple pack or whatever they, they call it.

These are antibiotics.

Yeah, antibiotics, the PPI, uh, and then they usually give— there's one, I think there's two, yeah, two antibiotics and one PPI. And it's quite— it's very aggressive. And it's, to be honest, it's a recipe for Candida and SIBO. So, so if I can treat the H. pylori more naturopathically, that's really helpful. So usually I'll use mastic gum. Mastic gum is a good one. I may use oregano. There's quite a few different ones. Monolaurin, there's serrapeptase, there's, there's quite a few options for H. pylori. I do some muscle testing, so I, on a positive H. pylori test, I might muscle test and see which, which botanicals would be the best for that and then go from there and yeah, address the H. pylori and then treat the SIBO and then address, yeah, the, the rest.

Yeah. So I had a client who said that, you know, she was tested for H. pylori. She was asymptomatic, was tested for H. pylori by her doctor because it was something they do at a certain age, given heavy antibiotics that were making her miserable. And they said, push through, keep taking them. And then after that, she said, I've had reflux ever since.

Yeah, not surprising. So she's probably got SIBO or Candida now, unfortunately, and now has to deal with that.

So I think we covered pretty much everything about rebuilding the gut already. So anything else that you would like to share about SIBO or Candida, rather?

Oh yeah, so in the recovery phase, once a person has dealt with their, with their Candida and, you know, we're kind of just putting the gut back to how it should be. Might be using high-dose probiotics, like I said, maybe up to 100, 500 billion. I'll probably do a digestive enzyme either sometimes during the treatment, like if they seem to need it, or— and because most Candida states seem to be low stomach acid states, so I'll want to do that at, at some point, either at the end or during, to do a digestive enzyme with some HCl in it, or to do apple cider vinegar, which That's my favorite, but not everybody will take it. Not everybody will hand— like, will be able to palate it. That's, that's fine.

Yeah. Is that like mixed with water at least, or?

Yes, of course. Yeah. So you would do, for a young person, I might even just do a quarter teaspoon up to 1 teaspoon for an adult, nothing too, too much, in water before every meal to help to stimulate the digestive secretions.

So just right before the meal?

Yes, exactly.

Okay.

And if they don't like it, and, and unfortunately I'm that person, so I take a digestive enzyme. And that's also a really good, a really good option. But yeah, I'd want to have a little bit of HCl in there. And, um, as many, many people with digestive problems also may need the bile support, right? If maybe they've had their gallbladder out already, or they have more trouble digesting, uh, digesting fatty foods, have a history of gallstones, maybe haven't had their gallbladder out, but still we know the gallbladder is sluggish, then I like Thorne's BioGest, which has some bile in it plus some HCl. There's another one, and I think it's a Canadian brand, it's called New Roots, and that one's a retail one and that one's very good too. It has both, or all three, the enzymes and the bile and the HCl.

And you mentioned digestive enzymes. Which ones do you like for that?

So I use myself, I love Similase. Similase is awesome. And Similase comes in a few other ones that have some botanicals in it. Like a person, if a person has gastritis or history of, you know, peptic ulcer disease, then you may want to use the Similase Sensitive Stomach. Or if it's, if they're gluten and dairy sensitive, then there's a gluten and dairy enzyme with similes. That's by ITI. I really like that, that line of things. And then like I said, the Biogest by Thorne, that's a really good one.

And that has the HCl in it.

Yeah, and the bile.

Right. Okay, great. Um, and you were mentioning just, just in terms of rebuilding the gut, that— well, I guess the big question is most of these probiotics that have 50 and 100 billion, these aren't actually the bacteria that live in our gut. These are ones that sort of promote healthy bacteria, correct?

Well, no, I mean, yeah, we do have a lot of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium in the guts, but you're correct in the sense that probiotic supplements don't have all of the good bacterial strains that we have in our gut. So that's where prebiotics come in, right? So, and that's why prebiotics are probably the even more sort of promotion of prebiotics than probiotics because you're giving a probiotic supplement and it's, it's feeding or rebuilding Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium, which are extremely important, but it's— that's not all that's in the gut, right? So there's another 30-some strains that are not being fed unless you give prebiotics. So if you give prebiotic, you're feeding all of them.

And are, so are you prescribing prebiotics or are you just telling people to eat lots of fruits and vegetables?

Both. So I like ground flax seeds. I may do, you know, chia, hemp seeds as a prebiotic. We may do, if somebody's too busy and can't do seeds and, and powders and things, then I may recommend a, you know, fiber formula like ITI has one that I carry in the office and it's got few different, like, inulin fiber and that sort of thing in there, and you can just take 4 capsules of that and a huge glass of water and take that instead. But yes, of course, through diet first. And, and usually, like I said, I like the seeds, the ground seeds. I like to do that myself. And so that, that as well.

So I, I recently saw a study that all this inulin from chicory root that they're adding to protein bars and, and granola bars and stuff is causing liver cancer. Did you see that?

No, I haven't seen that.

Oh, okay. Well, it makes me hesitant now to, to take these processed fiber products.

Right.

As opposed to whole foods.

I agree with you. I, I always recommend whole foods first. It's only if somebody can't that I may recommend a fiber supplement or, I mean, it doesn't have to be that one. It could be Metamucil, but not everyone can tolerate that psyllium husk. So it's different strokes for different folks, right? So, you know, some will be okay with Metamucil, some will do— I find most people do great on ground flax and chia and hemp. And so that's definitely at the top of my list. And then in some cases, like I said, we may have to use a capsule.

Okay, great. Well, this was all really interesting and useful information. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

You're welcome. Thank you again for having me. Okay.

Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please rate us so that others can find us and make sure you're subscribed in your podcasting app. And also, I'd love to hear from listeners why you're interested in the show, what you liked, what you didn't like, what you would like more of or less of. So please email me at Lindsey@HighDesertHealthCoaching.com or follow and write me on Facebook at my High Desert Health page and tell me what you think and be sure to include whether I can read your letter on the air. And so thanks for listening, and here's wishing you all the perfect stool.