"Designer Sh*t" – Coming Soon to a Theater Near You

Hi, this is your host Lindsey Parsons with The Perfect Stool: Understanding and Healing the Gut Microbiome. Today I'm talking with Safron Cassidy from Toronto, Canada. And yes, I know we've had a bit of a Canada theme of late, which is entirely coincidental. Of course, there are people in the US who have gut issues and who are trying to heal bowels. But anyways, Safron began her career as an actor and is now an award-winning documentary filmmaker with two films under her belt, Cyber Seniors and Returning Citizens. And she's currently living in LA and finishing up her third film, Designer Shit, which is the story of her own experience using FMT, or fecal microbiota transplantation, to treat her colitis. But before we get to the show, as you all likely know, I'm a health coach and I help clients lose weight without dieting or cutting calories. So if you or a loved one is struggling to lose weight, please reach out. But if that's not the case, one easy way you could help support the show is if you regularly take supplements that you buy online, or that you could buy online. I have affiliate accounts in various places. One is Amazon. So if you go to Amazon.com via the recommended products page on my website, HighDesertHealthCoaching.com, I get a small commission. And that's not just for supplements, that's really for anything. The same works for Vitacost, which is one of my favorite supplement stores that always gives great discounts if you're on their email list. And I also have an online dispensary through FullScript, which has medical-grade supplements that you can often only get through a doctor's office. And I pass on a 15% discount off of retail on those supplements to you. I also have an affiliation with YourLabWork.com, which is an online lab that you can access by my website, where you can order order your own lab work, which is really handy if you're not on insurance or you can't get your doctor to order the labs you really want access to. So I'd really appreciate it if you check out those resources and support the show that way, which are all available via HighDesertHealthCoaching.com or linked in the show notes. But now I'm excited to get to the conversation with Safran Cassidy and even more excited to see her film, which is due out in 2020. So without further ado, let's get to the conversation and don't forget to press subscribe. Hi, Saffron.

Hi, how are you? I'm great, how are you?

Good.

So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Of course.

And I normally start with, you know, kind of building up to the story of the FMT, but I'm just gonna start with the climax. So tell me the results of your FMTs. Did it cure your colitis?

Well, I'm apprehensive to use the word cure because, you know, when it comes to chronic illness, you kind of never know when it's gonna come back, but it has gotten me into 100% remission to the point where my bowels feel healthier than I ever remember them feeling after suffering from colitis for 9 years and having a lot of ups and downs and never being able to get to 100%. FMT has definitely gotten me there.

Okay. Wow, that's awesome. So can you start with like your health history with colitis? When did it start? Do you know why it may have started?

I was diagnosed with colitis at age 22. I have theories of why it started. I took a very hardcore antibiotic called Accutane for acne. I had never really taken antibiotics before. I was always a healthy eater. I was always really active. I never had any health problems. And I took this antibiotic and for a couple years after that, I kept getting these really weird stomach bugs. Like out of nowhere, I would just have really bad diarrhea. And a couple of times when I developed these stomach bugs, I would go to the doctor and they'd say, oh, I think you probably have, you know, a virus. Take some antibiotics. So the solution was always more antibiotics. And by the third time this happened, you know, I took a round of antibiotics to get rid of diarrhea symptoms. And then I started noticing blood and mucus. So it had at that point transformed into something else. I had a sigmoidoscopy done and was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis.

And what was that last antibiotic that you took? What type?

I think it was like a malaria pill. I have to— look back into it. I was on vacation in Africa and I got a really weird stomach bug and we had all these kind of emergency antibiotics with us. I just kept popping them and yeah.

Hmm. Okay. And what kind of treatments did you use? Your traditional treatments at first?

So when I was first diagnosed, I was put onto a drug called salofal, which is a 5-ASA. It's kind of an anti-inflammatory drug, which is usually the starting point for people with colitis. It's quite a mild drug. It doesn't have any really bad side effects. And for me, You take them via tablets and also enema. So I was taking tablets and enemas of this medication. And at the beginning, you know, I would take them for a few weeks to a month religiously, and then my symptoms would go away. So then I could kind of taper down, wean down, and, you know, just take them as needed, maybe once a week. And that was kind of the cycle I was going through for the first 5 years with this illness. And then things just got kind of progressively worse where I always needed more medication and more medication. To the point where, you know, 8 years later I was on the absolute max dose of this medication and it still wasn't getting me into 100% remission. And I just realized, you know, I have completely maxed myself out on this medication. There's nowhere to go but up. I have to go on another hardcore drug.

Uh-huh.

And that was scary to me.

And I realized I probably should back up and for people who aren't familiar with what colitis is about, what are the typical symptoms?

So colitis is an autoimmune disease whereby the immune system attacks the lining of the colon. We're still not really sure why this happens, but it results in basically ulcers along the lining of your colon. So symptoms can include diarrhea, urgency, blood, mucus. It could be really painful when you're passing a bowel movement over ulcerated parts of your colon. And the urgency is one of the worst things as well, whereby, you know, when you have to go, you have to go. And it can be difficult to leave your house sometimes. You know, I've missed university exams and important meetings because I just couldn't get myself out of the bathroom on time. So that was really upsetting.

Yeah. Okay. That's, that's tough to go through. I can't imagine. So what about probiotics? Did you ever try those? Was that ever in the mix?

I have tried probiotics. I tried VSL number 3, did that for a bit. And then I, I have been making my own yogurt. I follow a specific carbohydrate diet and I make my own yogurt as that diet prescribes, which I ferment for 24 hours. So that it's really high in probiotics. And I think it works for me. I mean, I'm not sure 100% how much it's helping, but I mean, either way, it's, it's a nice healthy snack that I really enjoy. So I eat that every day and that's my probiotics.

And tell, tell me about this specific carbohydrate diet. What does that consist of or what does it eliminate?

So specific carbohydrate diet is used for people with irritable inflammatory bowel disease. So Crohn's colitis, it's also been used for people suffering from autism. And the goal of it is a theory that, you know, all these diseases are kind of based on an imbalance of gut bacteria. So you cut out specific carbohydrates that are more difficult for your body to digest. These are more complex carbohydrates that tend to sit in the colon longer and feed bacteria. If you have, you know, a bad imbalance of bacteria, you don't really want to be feeding them. So it essentially eliminates all starches, grains. It's like a carb-free diet essentially. So you could still eat meat, fruits, vegetables, but you're cutting out pasta, wheat, bread, things like that.

Can you eat things like sweet potatoes or, I don't know, like paleo things like cassava?

And the Specific Carbohydrate Diet does not allow for that, but I've been on it for so long that, you know, I started at the most strict, rigid point of the diet and I have slowly allowed more things into my diet. So at this point I do eat sweet potatoes and I eat oats. Those are the two kind of starches that I can tolerate quite well.

But normally would it be mostly like a ketogenic diet then because you're cutting out all the starches?

Yes, very similar, except I think ketogenic diet is really high fat. Specific carbohydrate diet does not really have a focus on fat. It's, it's the elimination of those, the same things that keto would eliminate. Yeah, right.

So you could eat as much vegetables and carbohydrates from vegetables and fruit as you want, for example.

Yes.

Yeah.

And sugar is the other thing that you eliminate, but sugar from fruit is completely fine as well as honey. Honey is the one kind of sweetener that you can use.

But okay.

Yeah.

So tell me about how you first heard about FMT.

So shortly after I was diagnosed with colitis at 22, I had a family friend who actually had Crohn's disease. He had had his colon removed at that point, but he had just heard of this treatment called FMT. He had read an article about it and he said, 'You need to try fecal transplant. I just read an article where, you know, people are seeing miraculous results.' And at that time, 22, freshly diagnosed, not really understanding what this illness was, I just thought, 'No, I'm never going to need that. I'm going to be fine. I'm going to take this medication, but I think it's just going to go away.' And it wasn't until years and years later of, you know, my symptoms getting progressively worse and the medication doing less and less for me that I kind of circled back to this idea.

And if you had heard about this from your doctor, say, at that point, would you have done it right away?

I'm not sure I would have. Um, you know, I've come so far with researching fecal transplant and now doing it. Um, I think a lot of people are apprehensive about it because of the ick factor. It just seems so gross and disgusting. And that's where my mindset was at when I was 22 and first heard about it. It was as years progressed and I started reading more and more about it, seeing clinical trials come out, that I kind of went, you know what, I'm willing to get over the fact that it's gross and weird if it could potentially help me.

Yeah. So, so what finally did give you that, that final push?

Well, the family friend who had heard about it, he had actually read an article about somebody in our city, Toronto, who had done it successfully and cured himself of Crohn's disease. And then I was at a dinner party years later, like 5 or 6 years later, when somebody mentioned this story and said, oh, it's, it's my friend Charlie who did that. And I went, I know Charlie. This was a person that I knew personally, and I just never connected the dots that he was the person who had been written about all these years later. So I reached out to him and had a few phone calls with him where he just told me about his journey. He was at such a terrible state with his Crohn's disease. He was living in the hospital at that time. He was about to get his colon removed, and his mom reached out to Dr. Borody in Australia, who one of the leaders in FMT. I think he's performed 16,000 fecal transplants. And with Dr. Baroti's support, they decided to do fecal transplant at home and he had a miraculous recovery. So just hearing his story inspired me, you know, hearing firsthand from somebody who had done it, who was able to laugh about it and admit, yes, this is gross, but it works. And I can tell you exactly how we did it, what our process was. That was kind of what gave me the courage to go forward with it.

Yeah. And who did Charlie use as his donor?

His mother.

And how many times did he do a transplant?

They had a very long protocol. So Charlie and his mother are featured in my film. They, I think the standard, what we're hearing right now, Dr. Baroti recommends about 10 transplants. If you look at clinical trials going on right now, like McMaster University is doing a colitis trial in Canada for colitis. They do 8 transplants a week apart. So that was kind of the average that I was hearing for colitis. You know, you do 8 to 10. But Charlie and Skye decided that, you know, if this works, we're just going to keep doing it and really knock this thing out. So they did every day for a month, every other day for a month, every third day for a month, and so on until they got to once a week. And then they continued doing once a month for about 3 years.

And now he's off completely?

Yeah, now it's been 7 years of no symptoms, no medication.

So spectacular.

Yeah.

Okay, so tell me about who your donor is for FMTs.

So my donor is my boyfriend, my partner who I live with. While researching this film, I spoke to a lot of researchers, and the thing that I kept hearing was, you know, the reason— because a lot of doctors will dissuade you from doing this on your own, and their main reasoning is you have to have a donor that's a health superstar, and these people are really hard to find. In the clinical trials and in the stool banks, you know, we have people who have no history of any kind of chronic illness illness, depression, weight problems. They have to have clear skin. They have to be active, healthy, have a whole foods diet. And they're kind of going through this list of these health superstars. And I went, well, that's my boyfriend. He's the healthiest person I know, and I share a bathroom with him. So I decided that I had to ask him, and I didn't know how he was going to take that, but, uh, thankfully he was completely on board.

Awesome. So this brings up a little bit of an awkward question, which is, do you think that people who need these transplants should date to try and find a good donor? Like, just kind of put it out there on the dating sites, like, I want to date somebody completely healthy, but not reveal that they really are looking for a donor too.

Oh my God. There's definitely a dating app that's going to emerge for that as people start learning about fecal transplants. Like, choose your partner wisely.

Oh, so, okay, so when did you start doing the FMTs?

I started in November of 2017.

Okay, and did you— did you come up with the idea for the film before you started, or how did that all come about?

I actually started doing FMT first, and I had just finished my last film, and I was kind of on a hiatus, and I had just moved to Los Angeles, and I decided, you know, this is a fresh start, it's time for me to do it. So I started doing the fecal transplant first while just like poring over research. It was like all-consuming. I couldn't stop reading about this, talking to people online about it. And then when it's— after about 4 days and it started working for me, that's when I went, I think I want to make a documentary film about this. So it was kind of happening simultaneously, like while I was doing FMT treatments, I was traveling around and meeting all these researchers and hearing conflicting things. And this kind of messed with my head because I started out I was just so hopeful that this could work for me. And then it did start working for me. And then I traveled around meeting all these researchers who, some were very pro-FMT and really believed in it, but some of the researchers that I was meeting were kind of saying, "We don't know enough yet. It might just be placebo effect. It's really not that likely to help." And I have to say the mental component, depending on who I was speaking to or interviewing that day, I felt that it was kind of messing with my process where I think I would've been better off devoting myself to really really diving into my personal health.

Mm-hmm.

Blowing it up and taking in all these extra opinions at the same time kind of made my journey a little bit confusing, but yeah.

Well, the placebo effect is real and is important. So to the extent to which thinking it's gonna work as well as having the good bacteria entering in, maybe they work in synergy.

Yeah, absolutely. I really do think that You know, with anything that you try, you really have to give it your all and believe that it is going to work. Because otherwise, I, I don't know if there's a point in kind of going, I'm going to do this thing, but I just don't really believe that it's going to work for me. I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

So what was your schedule of FMTs?

So I started out trying to mimic what my friend Charlie had done. So I did a month straight and then we went down to every other day. And then at that point I started traveling for this film. So I dropped off and stopped doing it. And at that point, I mean, when I was doing it a month straight, after 4 days I had no symptoms. So I kind of jumped the gun and thought, oh my God, I'm cured, I'm fine, I don't need medication anymore. And then I stopped doing the FMT as well. And gradually symptoms did start to come back and I ended up in a flare. And it was really upsetting because I, you know, had gone from thinking I had found the solution and then I was like, well, how did I screw it up this time? And that's when I went back to my friend Charlie. And he admitted the same thing had happened to him. And that's why they continued for 3 years for a month, because they did the first time, he was doing well, they stopped doing it, his symptoms came back. And he kind of went, "Mom, I'm throwing in the towel. I don't want to do this anymore." And she said, "No, it was working. We just have to keep doing it." So they started again from the very beginning every day for a month, every other day, and then— and doing it for 3 years afterwards once a month. Is what he thinks finally got him into remission. It wasn't enough to just do it for a couple months and give up. It was the consistency over a long period of time. So that's when I decided I had to try it again from the beginning. So that was last fall. I started again from the beginning, and yeah, I've been in remission for 10 months now.

So you're now on the once-a-month schedule or once-a-week schedule? What's the—

Once a week right now.

Okay. And so another awkward question. This kind of ties you to your boyfriend. You— your relationship is kind of dependent on, you know, it's, it's a, you know, mutually reinforcing thing, right?

Absolutely.

Can't give him up now. Well, I hope it's going strong.

Yeah. And he's quite proud of his role in this. I mean, you know, some people are more comfortable than others talking about their bowel health. I personally am not the kind of person who loves talking about that kind of stuff, but he's the kind of person who is just totally open about it. He has no qualms about talking about it. So this process hasn't been that difficult for him. He, he loves that he's helping. He sees himself as like, you know, playing a major role in my health and that makes him proud.

So.

Yeah.

So is he willing to donate to anybody else?

We've thought about that. We're like, hey, if times get hard, we could, uh, pimp out your stool to other people. This is a major issue where a lot of people kind of go, I really want to try fecal transplant, but the only way to do it is to have my own donor, and I don't really have access to somebody who's appropriate. I don't know what to do.

Absolutely. Yeah, no, I have other people on my podcast, one guy who has had 9 different donors. Only one of them was a truly good quality donor, but he could never get more than one donation, and he's been on disability for like 12 years because he's so in such bad shape. So, so he helped, he helped another guy put up a website. It's called microbioma.org where people can sign up to be donors and get connected with people who need donations.

Oh, that's great. I'm gonna look into that because, you know, now that we're rolling out this film, we get questions like that all the time. You know, it's really hard when you're doing a documentary film to where, you know, the goal is that you want to inspire people and inform them. But if they walk away from seeing this movie with this newfound inspiration of, you know what, I think I really need to do this, where can you point them to? And that's one of the issues with fecal transplant right now where, you know, people are starting to reach out and kind of go, I've heard that this could be effective for autism. My child, you know, is slipping into autism. It's just begun. And I really want to do this as soon as possible for the best chance of reversing this. And they're asking me for advice on how to do this. And I'm like, I don't know, because of FDA regulations right now, your hands are kind of tied, right?

Right. Well, I mean, of course you can go to other countries and do it, but yeah, that's expensive and for many people completely prohibitive. So, and especially if you want to have a long-term course. And again, there was just a study that came out, I think after 2 years, they said the symptoms of autism were reduced by like 45%. So yeah, I, um, I'd love to talk to one of the researchers and I'm getting into trying to get one of them on.

Absolutely. Well, that's something that Dr. Borody told me when I interviewed him. One of the things that that study showed was 2 years after doing fecal transplant, because I think they did fecal transplant for about 2 months on these autistic children, 2 years after they had improved even further. And Dr. Borody had said to me, sometimes when you do fecal transplant, the implanted stool continues to help as time goes on. And that's what I found for myself, where, you know, I had this blip where I started flaring again. But then I very quickly got it under control and I did a colonoscopy and my colonoscopy looked amazing. That kind of was like, okay, I had a blip at month 3, but at month 6 I'm actually doing better than I was at month 3. So I do think that once you do it, the benefits keep going for years.

And a blip could be, could be you ate something that was bad and maybe you had a, you know, A little— everybody's pet has those sort of things happen, right?

Absolutely. I mean, it could have been stress. Like I said, I was traveling, working on this film. It could have been anything. And I— at the time it was devastating, but I just had to kind of go, you know what, it's not a linear line towards health. You have these ups and downs and you just have to kind of keep going, regroup, reassess, figure out your new routine and keep going with it.

Absolutely.

Please excuse this short interruption, but I have some exciting news. If you can't resist sweets and desserts like me, but you know you should cut down on sugar for your health or your weight or for some other reason, I'm doing a free webinar on Monday, June 17th on how and why to kick the sugar habit. It's at 4 PM Eastern Time or 1 PM Pacific Time, which is also Tucson time. So to sign up, please go to HighDesertHealthCoaching.com and under Communications, Newsletter, or in the pop-up, you can sign up for my email list, and then you'll get a confirmation email with all the webinar details. Or if you're already on my email list, you can just go to my High Desert Health Facebook page and RSVP there. And all the links to those things are in the show notes. In case you're not sure how to get to those, I can tell you in iTunes how to do it. When the podcast is playing, just click on the podcast on the bottom of the app and a full screen of the podcast will come up, and then you pull up from that screen to show the show notes that are underneath. And now a word from my sponsor.

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So tell me about the film. When is it going to come out and all that?

We're hoping to have it released early 2020, which is a long way away. We're still in editing right now and we're not sure where it's going to be aired, so we're producing it independently. Our website will have updates on when it's available. For sure it will be available on things like iTunes and Amazon, but we're hoping it will also be available on other platforms once we've finished it and can sell it.

And how long is it going to be? Is it, is it already actually complete?

We're at the rough cut stage right now, so it's going to be about 90 minutes. It's a full feature film and it, it kind of follows my journey, my decision to do this, the process of getting organized and trying it. And then it's intercut with interviews with experts where we kind of paint a picture of all the research that's going on around FMT right now, what we know, what we're figuring out.

And you mentioned Dr. Brody. Did you interview him then?

We did, yes.

Awesome. He's one of my heroes, probably one of the first people I heard about. And, and, you know, because he mentioned one of his patients had an autoimmune condition that I have that cleared up. That's what got me interested in FMT.

Yeah, he's fantastic. So Dr. Brody was the one who helped my friend Charlie, right? And that was how we had a connection to Dr. Brody, because I likewise had been researching Dr. Brody for so long, and he is a very hard man to get in touch with. So we were lucky enough that Charlie, who still has a good relationship with him, connected us with him.

I actually— when I used to work at Georgetown University at the Center for Australia, New Zealand, and Pacific Studies, and since he was in Australia and we used to bring in speakers from Australia, I wrote him and I said, would you like to come do a talk about FMT? Because my boss there knew I was interested in that topic. And he said, sure, I'd love to. You know, I'm going to be in the States maybe in a year or so. And unfortunately, I left that job. So I don't know if he ever went and spoke at Georgetown, but I was always excited about the potential that he might.

Yeah, absolutely. We caught him because he was at a gastroenterology conference in Washington, D.C. We're like, oh my God, this is our chance. Yeah. So we went down to Washington, DC to meet him.

Awesome. And tell me about the process that you used for your fecal transplants.

Sure. I have updated my process over the year that I've been doing it. So I, my boyfriend poops into a bowl, like a disposable bowl, Ziploc bags it in the bathroom, and I quickly go in afterwards and I throw it in a blender with a bit of filtered water. Some people I use saline solution, but I've heard that's not necessary, so I just use water. I blend it. I use a strainer and a funnel to kind of strain out any chunks, if you will, and I put it into a disposable enema. So I buy saline laxative enemas that are disposable, and I just clear out all of the liquid and reuse them.

And do you pull that little paper thing out in the enema bottle?

That like that little paper square thing with the one that like kind of filters.

Yeah.

In the bottom. No, I leave that in.

Okay.

And my process right now, so the first round that I was doing it, I was trying, I've always heard like fresh is best. You shouldn't let it sit for more than 6 hours. So it's this thing where, you know, first thing in the morning I would wake up, I would blend it and I'd have to get straight back into bed afterwards to do the FMT. It was kind of ruining my productivity. And then I learned from a couple of naturopaths that you can freeze them. And then they stay fresh. So that's my new routine, that I blend them and I put them in these disposable animal bottles and I just wrap them up in a ton of plastic bags and I throw them in my freezer. And that way before bed I can kind of thaw it or defrost it and then do it before bed. That way it stays in overnight and it's an easier routine this way.

How long does it take to defrost?

About 30 to 45 minutes. I just put it in warm water like you would like breast milk in a baby bottle.

So not hot water, but warm.

Yeah, not hot water. I don't want to cook it.

And did you say you're using just filtered water, like Brita filter kind of thing, or distilled?

I just use filtered water.

Okay, so you're not worried at all the chlorine might kill off some of the— well, I suppose the filters are supposed to take out chlorine, right?

Mm-hmm. Well, it works. Yeah, I've never had a— yeah, it works.

So, okay. And then what about— do you do anything to clean out your bowels before you start?

Both times before I started, like when I was starting from scratch, yeah, I did a— well, I'm always on Specific Carbohydrate Diet, so I just go really strict on that for a couple of weeks and then I fast for 36 hours before and I do a bowel cleanse. So I'll either do like a saltwater flush, which is like warm water and salt water. It kind of flushes out the bowels. Almost like a colonoscopy prep. So that's what I'll do, you know, when I'm starting from scratch, beginning fecal transplant. But then, you know, once I was in the routine, I wouldn't do that anymore because the FMT that was already in me, I just wanted to keep in me.

So, okay. So obviously, yeah, if you're doing it every day, you can't fast 36 hours, but you can before you start the whole thing.

Yeah, exactly.

Right. Okay. And That must have been tough. Was it literally just water fast or were you having liquids?

Yeah, just a water fast. I was having a bit of tea, but yeah, it was hard to sleep. I had a very grumpy sleep because I was so hungry.

I can imagine.

Yeah.

Okay. So let me ask this. Is there anybody who you would recommend that I have on the podcast that you can connect me to?

I would say Dr. Baroti, but he's very difficult to get in touch with. I don't even know if I could get a response from him. I have been meeting people who have been reaching out now that, you know, we have an Instagram page going. We have people reaching out with their stories of fecal transplant and, you know, some of them have really miraculous success stories. I could definitely connect you with a couple of people that are coming to mind.

Sure, that would be awesome.

Mm-hmm.

I'm interested in success stories, of course. I'm also interested in not-so-success stories because, well, obviously we can learn from them, and because I don't want to paint it as an absolute cure-all if it is not for everybody. You know, you want to be open about the reality of the likelihood of cure.

So absolutely. I mean, that's something I'm struggling with as we're kind of still editing this film and coming out. The biggest question I get is, oh, you did FMT, did it work? Are you cured? And I'm like, well, it worked and then it didn't work and now it's working. You know what I mean? When people just want a yes or no and it's really hard to blanket statement yes or no. It's been a long process. I have found a method that now I do feel that it is working really, really well, but it took a long time. It's not black and white.

And you had to have somebody available that whole time. It wasn't just, I got my one volunteer donor who lives in my city and— they gave me. And so if you, if you put things in the freezer, how long, how many, how many FMTs can you get, say, from one stool?

From one stool, I usually get 2 or 3.

Okay. So you could, in theory, get a donor who helps you for a few days and you might be able to get 2 weeks worth out of that.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Well, thank you so much for sharing about this. I'm really excited to see the movie and do let me know when it's out. I will I'll, you know, let everybody know on the podcast.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I hope that you remain in great health and are able to eventually taper completely off and be good. Me too. Okay, thanks so much.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please rate it on iTunes or your favorite podcasting app so others can find us, and make sure you're subscribed in your podcasting app. And also, I'd love to hear from listeners why you're interested in the show, why you liked it, or what you didn't like, what you'd like more or less of, ideas for shows, etc. So please email me at Lindsey with an EY at High Desert Health Coaching dot com, or follow and write me on Facebook at my High Desert Health page and tell me what you think. And be sure to include whether I can read your letter on the air. And also, don't forget to support the show through my different affiliate affiliations off of the website. And thanks for listening, and here's wishing you all the perfect stool.