DIY Fecal Transplants for Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)

Now that I've lulled you into complacency with my relatively uncontroversial podcast topics, I'm hitting the controversial topic of do-it-yourself fecal transplants. This has been going on for almost 10 years with techniques and do-it-yourself videos shared on the internet. Michael, who I interview for the podcast this week, has given himself 9 fecal transplants to try and cure his IBS, irregular heartbeats, and severe fatigue. So we talk about his efforts to find suitable donors, how the FMTs have impacted his health and how to properly screen a donor. And he actually talks about how to do, do the transplant physically. And we discuss the need for high-quality, healthy donors and the potential profit healthy people may be flushing down the toilet. And since our recording, a site has been created that is called microbioma.org to connect high-quality stool donors and recipients. So if you have a super healthy athletic friend who you think might be a great donor, please send them this podcast and ask them to listen because they could be saving someone's life or health. Also, please press the subscribe so you won't miss future episodes. Upcoming guests include Dr. Joseph Petrosino, director of the Center for Metagenomics and Microbiome Research at Baylor University, and two naturopaths from Alberta, Canada, who will be talking about Candida and SIBO, or small intestine bacterial overgrowth.

Hi everybody, this is Lindsey Parsons with The Perfect Stool. And today I'm talking to Michael from Riverside, California. And Michael is a many-time do-it-yourself fecal transplant experiencer. He has done it 9 times to himself in efforts to cure some health problems. And so thank you, Michael, for talking with me today.

Yeah, sure.

So can you tell me first about your health problems and when they started?

Um, they started, uh, they came on gradually since I was a kid. I can't really pin it down to any one point because, you know, I was never like in perfect health. I can always remember like some thing here and there that I was having issues with since I was like 5 or so. But, you know, the fatigue came on a little stronger around 14 years old.

Fatigue.

Yeah, and, um, I was getting some heart problems as well, like, uh, irregular beats. And I was having irritable bowel syndrome around that time as well.

And how did that manifest itself?

Well, I know that there's both constipation and diarrhea. Would— did you alternate, or did you have both, or, or one or the other?

No, for me it was mostly, uh, gas and, uh, some constipation. And then later on, the— I took an antibiotic that switched me to diarrhea.

Okay. And so what did you try, or what did doctors prescribe to help you overcome at least your gut health issues?

Yeah, they really had no— uh, they really had nothing to offer at all. Um, I guess I was given antacids at one point. And then I was given some various stool softeners and recommended to get some over-the-counter fiber supplements, and none of those helped. They either made it worse or— yeah, I think they just mostly made it worse.

And did your parents— were they concerned about it? Were they doing things to try and intervene?

My parents were pretty mostly concerned with themselves.

Okay.

They didn't get involved too much.

Okay. So what got you to the idea of doing fecal transplants yourself or at all?

Yeah, so I think I had done like a— I really dove into the internet because since doctors had no answers, you know, that was the alternative where you go for information. So I had been on some forums for quite a while, and I think I probably saw it mentioned there and talked about there, and I think they linked to some YouTube videos of people demonstrating it. But at the time that I learned about it, I knew that I didn't know anyone healthy enough to be a donor, so I kind of put it in the back of my mind, and then just for a few years, I didn't really take any action on it.

Mm-hmm. And so some people might be listening and thinking, okay, so fatigue and some constipation, like, that's— doesn't— it seems kind of extreme. So can you tell me a little bit more about how these health issues have impacted you?

Yeah, so I was very athletic growing up. I was playing as many sports as I could. I wanted to be a professional soccer player first and then professional basketball player as I got taller and I moved to the States. And yeah, like the heart problems, the breathing problems, and fatigue, they all affected me like more and more until I was really struggling with athletics. And I eventually had to stop that in high school. And then, you know, it continued to get worse until I had to stop high school completely. And a few years later, I got on disability.

And so tell me about how you went about looking for donors for your FMTs, or fecal microbiota transplants.

Yeah, so that's like the, the really hard part, um, especially for me since I was mostly just living alone by myself. I never really went anywhere, so I didn't have like a lot of real-life friends or I wasn't real close with my family, so it was really difficult for me. So I mainly tried like online avenues, various forums, people I had played games with online. I, you know, talked to them about it.

And did you lead with, I'm looking for your stool, or did you lead with, I'm having some health problems, can you help me out?

I think I just, uh, just straight up told them, um, gave them— I probably linked them some information on fecal microbiota transplants and just said, you know, I'm looking for a donor. Yeah, I need someone in perfect health.

And what was, what was the typical response?

Uh, you know, it really varied from person to person. You know, one guy, he was like, yeah, totally, I'll do that. And, um, you know, I sent him over the questionnaire and he, uh you know, he was eager to, uh, you know, fill it out and be helpful any way he could. And then, um, another person was also like, yeah, totally, I'll do that, but then, you know, later flaked out on it. Yeah, I mean, it really varies from person to person. I think most people are, are happy to do it, but the problem is none of the people I knew were healthy enough.

And can you talk a little bit about the screening criteria? Like, what How healthy does one have to be to be a good donor?

Yeah, that, that's a, that's a really hard part because, um, right now there's a lot of unknowns and, um, the testing, uh, cannot be— it's so limited right now, so it can't be relied upon to either screen for completely for safety or completely for, uh, efficacy. So a questionnaire, like a really in-depth questionnaire is one of the main screening tools.

And what would preclude someone from being a donor?

Well, picking a donor right now is kind of like a risk versus reward. Since it's so hard to find someone in perfect health, uh, you have to basically just have them like fill out a really long questionnaire and then basically go through it and see if there's like something that they have that you think might be too risky that you could contract from them, and then you have to compare that to like the potential reward. And so on the reward side, it would be— the factors would be like their lifetime antibiotic use.

Like, what would be the most recent antibiotic you would accept? Like, if somebody had done antibiotics a year before, would that be okay?

You know, antibiotic use is a complicated thing. It, um, different people are impacted differently by different antibiotics, so there's no real straight rule for that. I know that a lot of the stool banks and clinics, they like to say 3 months. Some might say it takes much longer to rebound than that. Yeah, and some people never rebound. Um, you know, there's evidence that antibiotics do permanent damage And in my experience, the donors with zero lifetime antimicrobial use are the only ones who qualify as a high-quality donor.

And have you actually found people who've never taken antibiotics?

Yeah, I did get really lucky, I guess, and I found two of them.

Yeah.

And yeah, they were like much, much more effective than people who had taken antibiotics.

And were they young? Is that how they'd managed to never take them?

Yeah, they were young. But, um, so the thing is, is that like there, there are impacts even from like the parents. There are general— there are generational, um, impacts. So even if you find a kid that has not taken an antibiotic, that doesn't guarantee that they're a high-quality donor because they could have inherited a low-quality microbiome and low-quality genetics from their parents.

And so genetics impact your microbiome?

Absolutely, yeah.

Okay, so you were looking for donors online. Were there any other methods you used for looking for donors?

Yeah, I printed out some flyers and I went to, uh, my local universities. I tried to go either to the, um, like athletics fields, like track and field um, or, uh, like outside the gym. And I kind of just, you know, sit around and try to spot people who look like exceptionally healthy and athletic. And then I would go up to them and hand them a flyer.

And what was the response from that?

Basically, like, if, if I would chat to people, like, I was like super fatigued, so chatting with people was like really difficult for me. Even like going out was really difficult for me. I couldn't do it that much, but when I would talk to them, they would seem like, you know, fine with it. They would just never get back to me. And then, um, yeah, basically I probably handed out over 60 flyers to like really healthy, athletic-looking people, and I only got one response.

And did that person become a donor?

Yep, they, uh, they donated one time, and, uh, it they seemed really effective, they were really friendly, but for some reason, for some unknown reason, they stopped responding and they only donated that one time.

And what about a donor related to, say, STDs and that sort of thing? Presumably they can't have any of those.

Yeah, absolutely. You would want someone with no STDs.

And so how, if somebody's young and sexually active, can you feel safe that they may not acquire one between when you've last spoken to them? And yeah, yeah, were you requiring any kind of testing or asking that they see their doctor and do tests before they gave?

For me, it was just that one donor, and, um, I had like screened them through my questionnaire first, and from that I didn't see any risk factors.

Okay, like they weren't— they weren't—

they were in a monogamous relationship or not in a relationship or Right, not in a relationship. They were, they were not sexually active with any, any partners. Okay, so yeah, I didn't bother with that, but otherwise I would typically want them to go to a, you know, local STD clinic and get, you know, free testing, right?

And you weren't paying for any testing for your donors, correct?

Yeah, I did not because I'm super poor, right?

And that's, that's presumably why you never looked at or didn't consider going to one of the clinics that do this overseas, or Right, so there's a couple reasons for that.

The one is they're very expensive. The other factor is that they do not give quality info on their donors, so you can't determine whether their donors are safe or effective. They will not— like, they've pretty much all— I've contacted most of them and they've, they've all refused to give out information on donor quality.

Meaning what their screening criteria is?

Yeah, they did. They won't say— they won't say what rules out a donor. So yeah, like what we need from them would be like the in-depth questionnaire that I would put my donors through, and they won't give out that kind of information.

Got it. Okay, and so you, you successfully found 9 donors. How long did it take you to find the first one?

Um, the first one, I, um, I was probably searching for maybe 6 months to a year, and then I kind of, uh, I wasn't really, um, on great terms with my family, but I finally just, uh, reneged and like contacted them. And, uh, so that's where I found the first 2 donors. They were both nieces and nephews.

And then the subsequent donors were— well, we know you found one from athletic, from your outreach to— how about the others?

The third donor I got kind of lucky with. Like, they were, they were someone I was getting raw milk from, so it was a kid from the family I was getting raw milk from. And then the fourth donor was the, um, the college athlete. And then Donor 5 was one of my online friends who I had previously ruled out because of various risk factors. I knew him to be a low-quality donor, but I was so desperate at that point that I did it anyway.

Mm-hmm.

And I did pay the price for that. I did contract some new problems.

Mm. Tell me about those in a minute, but first, let me— so the rest of the donors, where did you find them?

I found 2 more donors online on a Reddit forum, and then the, let's see, 8th and 9th donors were both from the RDS Clinic in Florida.

So how does that work?

Um, you basically contact them and they will— they're not— no doctor is allowed to do fecal microbiota transplants for anything other than C. difficile. In the US. So they will refer patients directly to the donors, and then you'll get the stool from the donor. The donor will send it on dry ice, and then you do it yourself.

And do you have to pay those donors?

Yeah, it's about $80 per infusion, and then the dry ice shipping is the expensive part. It's like, um, you know, $160.

Okay, got it. And it's just one, one essential, one infusion?

Yeah, but you can get more and you can also get capsules. The capsules are like $10 per capsule.

Okay.

Please excuse my brief mid-podcast break, but I wanted to let you know that if you're struggling with weight and/or health problems, my specialty is helping clients break the cycle of yo-yo dieting to lose weight and keep it off for life and improve health problems naturally. I help people understand and address the root causes of health problems that the modern medical system can only put a Band-Aid on to help reverse or prevent chronic illness. So this includes autoimmune and digestive issues, cardiovascular disease, reversing prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, thyroid problems, eczema and/or unexplained rashes, or really any unexplained health problem. So if you're struggling in any of those areas, I offer my listeners a free 1-hour discovery session, which is a $97 value. To talk with me about your health issues and see if I can help you through health coaching. So if that sounds like you, reach out to me via email at Lindsey@highdeserthealthcoaching.com. That's L-I-N-D-S-E-Y. Or check out my website, highdeserthealthcoaching.com, and schedule a session from there. I can coach face-to-face in Tucson or over the phone or video chat just about anywhere. So if you miss those links, but you're interested, they're all in the show notes and I'd love to hear from you. Okay.

And so Tell me about the kinds of results that you've seen. Have you, have you seen improvements in your health from these FMTs?

Yeah, so the first donor, they were a really high-quality donor. I was really lucky to find them. They just had one issue with cramping that I contracted, but I— so that, that donor, in like the, uh, the first like 5 to 6 hours I started getting like, um, I guess feverish type symptoms with, uh, like cold sweats. And then they went away. And then the next morning I was feeling like much, much better. I was feeling really energetic, even exercising a bit. And, you know, previously I was in bed all day like in complete agony. So it was a huge— it was a huge improvement for me.

Great. And did that last?

It only lasted a few days. It kind of wore off. But I also, I was on taking Imodium for fatigue. Imodium is for diarrhea, but you know, it was, it's hugely beneficial for my fatigue. So I was relying on it for that. And I kind of like quit everything too soon, I think. And then I, I changed— like, I was on a really restricted diet, and I, I think I tried to go to a, you know, a complete diet, um, right away. I was expecting a cure. Like, I was expecting too much too soon, pretty much. So I might have been able to extend the benefits, but pretty much it does seem like, you know, one transplant is not enough for most people. For C. difficile, it seems to be, you know, enough for a lot of people. Even most people, but for other conditions, it seems like you need, you know, daily transplants for weeks or possibly months.

And were you telling donors up front that that was what you were hoping for, or did they go in with the expectation that it was a one-time deal?

Well, at that time, I thought it would be a one-time deal. I didn't, you know, this whole time that I was going through donors, you know, I was evolving in my knowledge and I was following the literature the whole time. So there are new studies coming out all the time, and so my knowledge was evolving. And, um, yeah, at the time of the first donor, I thought it would be a one-time deal. And then when I asked them, you know, to do more, they declined. So I had to find another one.

And so, um, how about the other ones? You presumably you needed more help after the first one, so, so you kept going.

Yeah, so don't— by, by the time of donor 2, I knew that I would probably need more than one, and they did agree to do that. But I only got like pretty mild initial benefits from donor 2, and I realized after like, I think, 4 days that they just weren't a high enough quality donor. They didn't give the same benefits as the previous donor. And, um, you know, I, I saw I saw that in the questionnaire beforehand, and I saw that in their stool. Their stool reflected antibiotic use that I've seen happen to my own stool.

And what do you see in the stool that has, has seen antibiotics?

Well, you know, it— that really varies from person to person and antibiotic to antibiotic. But what I saw was the, the front of the stool was like hard pellets, and then the rest of the stool was like softer and loose. And, um, lighter in color, and it was smelly.

Okay, so you could tell from the stool you weren't getting a great sample?

Yeah.

Okay. And so did you see any benefits from the subsequent donors?

So Donor 2 was mild, Donor 3 was also mild, and I also saw that their stool type was not ideal.

And we're shooting for a 3 or a 4, or what, what are you shooting for on the Bristol Stools Chart?

Yeah, so at this time I had no idea how important stool type was, and so I wasn't really going for anything.

I just, uh, but now what would you say?

Now it seems like high-quality donors have type 3 stools only. Okay, type 4 stool doesn't seem to represent an intact disease-resistant gut microbiome.

Okay, and that's, that's your personal opinion, or do you, do you, have you also read research to that effect?

There is some research to support that conclusion. A lot of it is from my experiences with the 9 donors, uh, in addition to other people's experiences. I've been like trying to, you know, I've been participating on like forums and everywhere I can that has to do with FMT and like talking to other people about their experiences and trying to get details from them about what worked and what didn't. And so from, from all of that together, you know, it seems like Type 4 just— it's not like— when you look up the Bristol stool chart, it shows Type 3 and Type 4 as, um, good, and that's what's used as the official standard, but it's not really based on any evidence as far as I know. It's kind of just intuition.

Okay.

So yeah, from experience, it seems like Type 3 is, is the only good one.

Okay, so did you— have you had some positive effects from the remaining FMTs?

Yeah, so donor 3 was also mild. Donor 4 was the college athlete, and that was, that was highly effective. I had taken, like, prior to that, I had taken an antibiotic called Flagyl, or metronidazole, and it did damage to my tendons and my skin. It made my skin, like, um, kind of look older and wrinkly and took sun damage really easily, and it seemed like the, uh, the one from the college athlete started to reverse that damage. But, you know, it was only one. I only did one infusion from them, so it wasn't that much.

And then were you giving time between these different donors to, to see if it would take effect over time?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Over what period of time did you do these 9 transplants?

Let's see, the first one was in July of 2016, and the 9th one was, um, you know, October 2018. So for a period of 2 years.

Okay, so you were— so you can go on about the, the benefits. So after the, after the athletic guy, how did you feel different?

I got like just kind of like all-around boosts. There was like an initial period again, like The same with like Donor 1, where there was an initial period where it feel like it caused some reaction and, you know, I got like kind of worse, but that was like really temporary, only for like 6 hours. And then I clearly started seeing benefits.

And that's probably some sort of a die-off reaction of the, of the pathogenic bacteria, don't you think?

Yeah, I don't really like the word die-off.

Okay.

Probably some kind of immune system stimulation. Yeah, some kind of, you know, changing of the guard, you know, new guys come in, kick out the old.

Yeah.

Okay. Why don't you like the word die-off?

Well, because I've seen people like use it inappropriately, I feel. For example, like it seems like people take stuff that's harming them and, you know, other people are like, hey, it's just die-off, keep doing it. And I've had people encourage me to continue doing things that were— that I knew were clearly harming me, and they're saying, no, it's just— I have to keep doing it. And I did keep doing it, and it kept harming me. And that happened, you know, many times with many things.

So, okay, okay. And then, uh, and what about the later donors, 6 through 9?

6 through 9, I got some initial improvements, like they were very mild from number 6. I, I was finding out some— because donor 5 was one who gave me new problems and like new, um, food sensitivities, and they were kind of severe. And so I was dealing with, uh, figuring those out at the same time that I was trying donor 6. But I did get some like mild improvements from donor 6, and I don't think I got any improvements from donor 7. I— yeah, I wouldn't have chose to do donor 7. I, I just, you know, I was desperate again. And even donor 6, I knew they weren't ideal, but they didn't seem to have like any risk factors, so I tried them anyway. And then donor 7, can't remember who— oh yeah, donors— okay, donor 7, yeah, I didn't get any improvements from them. Donor 8 was, uh, the RDS donor, and, um, it— I, I don't think I got like any apparent benefits, but I did notice changes to my stool, uh, right away. And so I started trying different dietary stuff, and I figured out that they basically fixed my bile acid metabolism. So after I had taken an antibiotic many years prior, I took Cefaxin, Rifaximin, and that antibiotic seemed to destroyed my bile acid metabolism. I had like major problems with meat and fat after that, and that's the antibiotic that switched me from, um, IBSC to IBSD. So this donor seemed to repair that, and I was able to start eating fat again, and so that was really nice.

Wow. So at this point now And let me ask this, at any point during all of this, did you stop and say, maybe fecal transplants are not the solution to my health problems? Maybe there's some other solution?

There were like, like many points where I was doubting myself. And then, you know, then I would find probably before donor, the before the college athlete, I think it was donor 4, I was doubting myself. And then Once I got that and I saw those big benefits, and then, you know, it, it gave me, you know, hope again.

Yeah, so you're just— you're convinced that your problems are centered in the gut?

Well, since I like follow the microbiome research really closely, like every day for, you know, the past few years, you know, I see all this evidence in the literature to support, you know, the microbiome being causative for like pretty much every illness. And so that plus my experiences, like I, I, I also had really beneficial and detrimental experiences with probiotics.

Mm-hmm.

And so that, you know, that added to it as well.

And do you, do you attribute the detrimental effects of probiotics to your sort of weakened state to begin with?

Possibly, possibly. Like it, it, you know, obviously the, the probiotic I took is not detrimental to everyone who takes it. So there's, you know, there's some kind of predisposition that, you know, someone has to have in order to see the detriments from it. In my case, possibly, probably all the antibiotics I had taken kind of left my gut microbiome bare. And so this probiotic came in and, you know, had the opportunity to, to take over, and, and that was problematic.

And had you taken a lot of antibiotics as a child? Is that when all this started?

I think I, you know, I grew up like, um, like really healthy. Well, a really healthy environment, like eating really healthy. But, you know, we— that was the environment we grew up in. We didn't really go to the doctor at all. So I don't remember taking any antibiotics or really any medication until I think I had like a fungal— I don't know if it's called infection, but a fungal, uh, appearance on my skin. And, uh, I was given something for that. I think I did take something orally, probably an antifungal. And that was like around, I think, 14 years old. So that was probably the first time. And actually, that was when I probably— that was around the time when I started having problems.

So, okay. And, and you mentioned you'd had some— you've taken probiotics that have been beneficial. What Which are those? What strains?

Yeah, so probiotics, you know, I had learned about them many years prior and I had tried, I wanted to go for the, you know, the whole foods natural approach. And that's what I also had read on the internet that was good. So I went with like fermented foods. I also read that high CFU counts and like the large strain counts in one product were good. So I went for that. And I didn't get any good results from either fermented foods or those multi-strain high CFU probiotics. And so when I was following the literature, I found out that what you need to go for are specific products and specific strains for your specific condition. And in my case, it was IBS-D, and the good ones for that are Culturelle, which is Lactobacillus GG, and Saccharomyces boulardii. So those two I got really big benefits from.

And do you continue to take those?

Yeah, yeah, they basically— I was having like really major problems at the time that I found those, and they like, they completely reversed my condition to like really beneficial. I was running sprints even. I, you know, I went from like in bed all day with like having like heart problems. I think I, you know, had just gone to the ER and they, you know, they completely reversed my condition. I was running sprints, you know, feeling really, really good for maybe like a year. And then I, I, you know, it wasn't a complete recovery, you know, I was still having like many food intolerances. So, you know, I kept on like trying other probiotics and that's when I ran into the one that, um, caused like really bad detriments and one of the things that it did was it seemed to negate all the benefits that I was getting from those, those two really beneficial ones. So that was really problematic for me. And at that, that was the point where I was like, okay, now probably FMT is the only thing that can help me.

So that was prior to all the FMTs?

Yeah.

Okay. And so tell me about some of the negative effects that you've gotten from some of the FMTs? Um, I— you've mentioned you, you felt like you took on some problems from your donors.

Yeah, so Donor 5 was the main one that gave me problems. I got like new food intolerances.

To what?

To like just like a huge range of foods that I'm still trying to figure out. Some of them would be sweet potatoes. Like I was eating sweet potatoes every day And then sweet potatoes seemed problematic.

How so? Like, what happened?

Basically, just, uh, my entire condition just gets worse. Like, fatigue gets worse. And at the time, I was having arthritis pains as well. And, you know, spinach was another one that caused, like, major problems. Some of the problems with that were, like, I felt like I had brain inflammation. Like, my head would get like, like burning and hurting and really low brain function.

When you ate spinach after that transplant?

Yeah.

Okay. And given that you're such an expert on this, do you have a sort of a favorite method of doing the transplants?

I kind of just do it both orally and rectally by enema.

Do you use the, the official enemas or just the, the small bottles that you get at the drugstore?

You can, you know, you could, you could do that. You can go to the drugstore and like empty out one of the enema bottles and then, you know, put the, uh, the fecal slurry in there and use that. But the nozzles are a little thin, so I prefer to use a turkey baster, which has like a wider nozzle so it doesn't get stuck as easy. Yeah.

Okay. And how do you prepare the stool to, to do the transplant?

Basically, the donor just goes in a Ziploc bag, and then just— they need to seal out the air as soon as possible because, um, microbes die really quick. Gut microbes die really quick when they're exposed to oxygen, right? So it's important for them to squeeze out all the air right away. And then as soon as you can use that stool, the better. So ideally, like within 15 minutes, you can like, you start using that stool and like add water to it. You can just mix it up, uh, from outside of the bag with your hand, and then just, you know, dip the turkey baster in there and just infuse it.

Wow, okay, quick and easy. Yeah. Okay, and do you have a protocol for getting it deeper into your colon?

Uh, yeah, you have to like, like go online and look at a diagram of the colon so you can get an idea of like how it will flow through the colon. And then you have to like lie ideally in, uh, declined positions to get it to flow through the entire colon.

Okay. And do you— can you feel it going through, or do you— you can't really tell?

You know, it really varies. Like the first time I ever did it, I wasn't really sure. I did like a lot of stomach contractions and, um, you know, uh, pushing with my hand, and, um, I think I, I felt it, you know, a little bit. But then once it got like the pocket between the, uh, the junction of the large intestine and the small intestine, that's like a really important zone for like the immune system. And once it gets to that point, I can— I usually get some type reaction. And so yeah, even if I can't feel it like going all the way through, I'll definitely feel it once it gets there usually.

So I have talked to doctors who've said, well, doing a fecal transplant yourself isn't good because you can't get it high enough in the colon. Do you think that's false, that you can in fact get it up there?

Yeah, you can definitely get it up there if you're doing the correct positions. Like, I use a inversion table. So it's, it's like a— you go upside down, it's for your back. But you can also, like, when I didn't have that, I was doing like— I was laying like with my head on the floor and my hips were up on the couch. And so I was in decline like that, right? And getting it to flow all the way through like that. But yeah, I mean, if you're just like laying flat, uh, it probably doesn't have that good of a chance to go all the way through.

And presumably you're using distilled water with the stool?

Yeah, distilled water is— I think saline is recommended, but I either use— in the past, I either used distilled water or just filtered tap water.

Okay. And is there anything else you wanted to share with our listeners about your experiences? Any Takeaways.

Well, you know, there are a few takeaways. Some of the main ones are that it's really, really difficult to find a high-quality donor. They're like, like 0.5% of the population or less. And also, if it really seems like, you know, but both from my experiences, other people's experiences, and from the literature, it seems like fecal transplants have the opportunity to basically be a panacea as long as the donor is high quality enough. So basically, these, you know, perfectly healthy people, they're flushing really, really valuable medicine down the toilet. So we really, really need these really healthy people to start donating their stool.

Yeah. And did you ever consider reaching out to like uBiome or one of these places a test stool and says, would you consider reaching out to the highest quality reeds that you get on stool?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I've, you know, I contact, you know, everyone I can. I contact the stool banks. I write to the clinics. I write to the researchers. I, you know, pass on all kinds of information and experiences. And yeah, I talk to them and I Even I write to the FDA, to NIH, um, and, you know, I really hope that, you know, other people—

we—

I think what we need is for a lot of people to become like really informed and then to start writing all those, all those people as well. Yeah, because yeah, right now the, the donor quality being used is just, in my opinion, really, really poor.

Yeah. And now I know for a while there, there was on thepowerofpoop.com, there was a donor registry, was that taken down?

Yeah, I guess so, because yeah, I did try to take advantage of that and I was never able to do it. And so yeah, I think they did take it down. I'm not sure why.

I think it may have been a regulatory issue, but that is a shame that you can't just have a forum where you can easily have people connecting with potential donors.

Yeah, I mean, there have been some other attempts to to create those forums. I just, um, it seems like there's not enough people like spreading the word about them, right? And then, you know, not enough healthy people volunteering.

Yeah. So the message is, if you're healthy, you have no conditions whatsoever, no— you're not overweight, you have no asthma, you have no allergies, you have no— obviously no STDs, you are in a safe place with regard to that, that you should be considering being a donor for someone?

Yeah, basically, you know, if, if you're in perfect health, uh, you're happy, athletic, intelligent, you've never taken antibiotics, no mental illness— exactly, no mental illness— and you have type 3 stools, you're very, very likely one of the, you know, top 0.5% of the population. So I would strongly encourage you to reach out to— just start with like friends and family. If you know any friends and family that are unhealthy, you know, reach out and say, I'd like to donate my stool to you. Yeah, you know, you can go online, you can look up some information, you can pass on that information to them. You can, you know, say, look, here's this, here's this, here's this procedure, you know, it's, you know, completely free, you know, I'm in perfect health, so there's very little risk. You know, it could possibly cure you. You know, you want to give it a try. But, you know, it is important for people to be really well informed before they start doing this procedure because there are absolutely risks.

Right.

It's only as safe as the donor is healthy.

Right, right. Okay. Well, that— it may be a bit of a stretch for people to reach out to friends and family to offer to do this who haven't requested, but, but I would love for there to be some place where a person could, could offer up their services or offer up their stool. Is there, are there any forums that you think would be a good place for them to go to online?

Okay, so yeah, actually, so if you're in the US, you could probably contact RDS Infusions Clinic in Florida and they can probably screen you. You don't, you, you don't have to even live in the same state. You know, you can see a doctor and get screened in your own state. You can, you can ship your stool in dry ice either to the clinic and/or to directly to the donors. So yeah, RDS Clinic would probably actually be the, uh, the place to go. Or if you live in, um, uh, the Boston area, there's OpenBiome. They're a stool bank and they ship stool out to all around the US to doctors all around the US, but they only do it for C. difficile.

Okay. And so, and you do have to be local to OpenBiome?

Yeah, for OpenBiome you have to be local, but for RDS Clinic you could be anywhere in the US.

And isn't there a stool bank in San Francisco as well?

Yeah, I— they, you know, I think there are some other stool banks opening around the US, and I'm not super familiar with them. You know, OpenBiome and RDS are the main ones I'm familiar with.

Okay, and are the— are people paid for their stool donations at RDS?

Yep, yep. They get— so if the patient orders it directly from the donor, the donor gets all the money. So it's $80 per infusion and $10 per capsule.

$80 per poop, basically.

Actually, it depends on how large your stool is. You could probably make multiple infusions from one stool. So you're literally sitting on a gold mine there if you're an healthy person.

Exactly. And then I know OpenBiome pays for donations, but probably not quite so much, right?

Yeah, OpenBiome, they have about, I think, uh, I think they give about $40 or $50 per stool. So yeah, you could probably, you know, make more money with, uh, RDS, and you could probably help more people as well since they, uh, you know, they don't have the same restrictions.

So RDS is willing to connect people with a variety of conditions to potential donors.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Whereas OpenBiome, you know, they, you know, it's all done through them, so they don't, they can't direct patients directly to the donors. So they have that limitation.

Okay. And so we're going to put all the resources that you have sent me in the show notes and you can connect to those there. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Michael. For sharing your experiences.

Cool, no problem.

Okay, thanks for having me.

You too.

Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please give me a rating so other people can find me, and make sure you've subscribed in your podcasting app. And I'd love to hear from listeners via email why you're interested in the show, what you liked, what you didn't like, what would you like more of or less of, etc. So please email me at Lindsey Parsons at High Desert Health Coaching dot com. Or follow and write me on Facebook at my High Desert Health page and tell me what you think. And be sure to include whether I can read your letter on the air. So thanks for listening, and here's wishing you a perfect stew.