Equilibrium Probiotic with General Biotics' CEO Dr. Xerxes López-Yglesias

Welcome back to The Perfect Stool. This is your host, Lindsey Parsons, and in this episode, I speak with Dr. Xerxes López Iglesias, CEO of General Biotics, which is the company that created and distributes Equilibrium probiotic. And we discuss the origins of Equilibrium, its benefits based on a 200-person study, different strains of probiotics, how many colony-forming are really necessary in a probiotic. Soil-based probiotics, plant-based, anaerobic bacteria, and more.

This is your host Lindsey Parsons, and today I'm talking with Zerxes Cercés López Iglesias, who is the CEO of General Biotics, which produces Equilibrium probiotic. Welcome, Cercés.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's my pleasure. So I'm gonna give a little background before I launch in, because a few years ago I was trying really hard to restore my gut microbiome after I'd taken tons of antibiotics and had subsequently been diagnosed with 3 autoimmune conditions and was trying to do a full healing protocol. And I heard on a podcast called the Microbiome Podcast, which hasn't been active since 2015, that I heard Zsaszsa speaking and he was talking about a probiotic that they had created and it was just what I had been looking for, something that I thought was totally unique. And so I started taking it, but also I reached out to the company at the time about its marketing and it was the right time for them. And in the meantime, the sales and marketing of Equilibrium have become something of an extended family affair. So that's just my disclaimer that I'm somewhat of an interested party in Equilibrium, but only because it was a product that I believed in years ago when I wasn't working in anything health— well, it was sort of health-related. I was running a nonprofit advocating for healthier food in public schools. But anyways, that's just— tell my listeners, what is Equilibrium's unique claim to fame as a probiotic?

Well, we have the most strains of any probiotic sold. At least last time I checked a few weeks ago.

And how many is that?

150.

115.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

But more important than the actual number of strains, I think, is actually the fact that all of these strains came from one functional, healthy ecosystem, as in these strains are all found in a healthy human gut. So I think that that's an important point that people often miss. That yes, it's good to have like lots of strains and diversity in there, but it's a lot better if you actually know that these— that all of those strains were part of a functional community to begin with.

And so who designed Equilibrium and how did it come to be?

The designers of Equilibrium were the original founders of the company, General Biotics, and they were David Salomon, who's still with the company, and Beltran Rodriguez, who's moved on. Beltran was our head biologist and was the one primarily in charge of the design of the probiotic.

Okay. And what was the origin of it?

So the origin of it was basically a couple of different things. One was that this was sort of Beltran's background as a biologist working with the microbiome. So he had something of a vested interest in there, in that. In addition, he and David were both interested in improving gut health for themselves and for their family, which is eventually how I also got involved. In addition to other considerations, I'd had gut issues that caused me to be more personally invested than I otherwise would be.

And how did you come to be part of it?

Well, shortly after Equilibrium came into being and started getting sold, there was a need for somebody who could add competencies in company administration. And David's sister reached out to me because I'm a friend of hers. And at the time, as I said, I'd already suffered some gut issues and I was kind of interested in trying something else, trying something else other than the job I currently had at the time as well.

Got it.

Yeah.

And so Dr. Beltran, he worked with the Human Microbiome Project, didn't he?

Oh, yes, he did.

Okay. And so was— is that the origin of the gut, the healthy human gut that Equilibrium is designed on?

Actually, no, it is not.

Oh, okay.

That—

I'm not sure it could be given legal issues.

Okay.

That being said, no, we did our own testing. I was not part of the company, so I can't give you all the details of that since I wasn't involved yet. Mm-hmm. But yes, basically what they did was they examined stool samples from various candid people and looked at the microbes involved in their guts and saw which microbes were associated with the health of human guts. Tested for parasitic DNA in case there was any. It was not. But basically, yeah, they looked at, they looked at a bunch of different donor samples and concluded and came away with a good, healthy prototype microbe list.

Got it. Okay. So where do the strains of Bacteria in equilibrium come from?

Well, we have our own, we have our own stock of them. Basically, they use strains that were identified during the search, during the search and examination of donors while we were first coming up with it. And now they sit in our freezer at at a laboratory and we produce and grow more as needed.

Okay. So some people refer to Equilibrium as a soil-based probiotic. Is that accurate?

I don't really like the term because a lot of soil-based probiotics are things that are not found endemically in human guts. They're passers-through. So, I mean, Yes, you can certainly find many of the strains in our product in soil or on plants or what have you, but I don't really like to refer to it that way. We, we, I mean, we label it as a probiotic ecosystem and that ecosystem is supposed to be native to a human gut. And I kind of feel that this is a bit of a significant difference from just saying, yes, these are organisms that we found in the soil and we're going to use them.

Right.

Yeah.

And I recently read an article about how soil-based organisms are spores and they aren't naturally found in your body and that you can, if you supplement with them in a probiotic and your gut isn't already colonized with healthy bacteria, that they are spore-forming and they proliferate really quickly and they could result in a pathogenic overgrowth. And they were mentioning in particular Bacillus bacilli and Bacillus subtilis. A common species that's been starting to be used in probiotic foods on the market. Does Equilibrium have any of those potentially concerning strains?

No, we do not.

Okay, so all— so the long and short of it is all of the strains in Equilibrium are those that are found in a healthy human gut, right? Okay. And so the list of them somewhere within the Amazon listing on Equilibrium, the list of bacteria that are in there, a lot of them are just listed as Bacterium plus some letters and numbers. Is that for secrecy's sake, or could you give our listeners an idea of the genera of the bacteria in Equilibrium?

So if you— you don't have to look at Amazon site. If you look at our website, you can find the full list of 115 strains. Some of them do not— are not named strains yet.

I see.

And that's why they just have that number. That's how it's referred to in the literature at the moment.

I see.

Most Most of the research looks at industrially useful strains, medically useful strains, agriculturally useful strains, and of course pathogens in all three— for all three areas. So, you know, most bacteria have not been studied.

And so they don't even— they can't even tell by looking at them what, what their genera is or genuses.

I don't really want to get into this tangent too much, but the classification of bacteria is an archaic artifact of the olden days when all people had was a microscope and a couple of different types of stains that they could use on them.

Okay.

It's not honestly very accurate if you're, if you're interested in genetics. So this is what's currently available in terms of identification of the genes of bacteria.

Got it.

A guess could probably be made as to genus and species based upon, you know, looking at it under a microscope and using different stains, but honestly it's much, much better to go with genetic classification. And that is the current— and the current genetic classification for a lot of these is, well, we don't know. But they do not have any parasitic genes that we have seen, and they all are associated with healthy guts.

Okay. So can you tell me about the studies that General Biotics has done on Equilibrium and what the results were? Sure.

We did an initial study with a small number of participants. I don't really know the details of that one too well, but it was basically— it was basically overwhelmingly positive. People saw improvements in their digestion. And in their gut comfort. The second study we did, which I can talk a lot more about, is the 200-person study. And we did that, I guess it was 2 years ago now that we finally published it. Mm-hmm. Maybe. Yeah, 2 years ago now. And that one is a double-blind placebo-controlled study. Unfortunately, at the time we couldn't afford having a third party run it, so it was done entirely in-house. We published the results on our website. Once again, the results show excellent improvement over placebo, which it was compared to in this study.

And what kind of benefits did people see?

People generally saw better school quality, for one. In terms of the Bristol scale, I'm not sure if your listeners are aware of it or not.

Right, so the Bristol stool scale rates stool on a scale of 1 to 7, with 3 or 4 being considered normal, correct?

Correct.

Okay, and so what was the, what was the Bristol stool scale results for the, for the participants on average?

The participants on average had 4, uh, I think even 10 years It was 4 point something.

It was 4.2, wasn't it?

Yeah, I believe so.

Okay.

4.2 for Equilibrium versus 3.3 for the placebo.

Okay. And what were some of the other benefits that people saw?

Many people found that they suddenly had significantly improved digestion in terms of a reduction in pain. Some reported elevation of mood. That's actually a pretty common report. Most importantly, probably for a lot of your listeners, there were no significant side effects compared to placebo. No differences there. But yeah, the thing that we most get, that we most get in terms of positive benefits for Equilibrium, the things that people most report is mood elevation and just comfort with digestion increases.

Okay. So actually, I, I was going to tell you and our listeners that up until recently I have taken Equilibrium, not constantly but on and off. And up until recently I hadn't actually had any really noticeable benefits from it, although the last time I took it, I was— it was following a low FODMAPs diet for SIBO, and I'd finished multiple rounds of herbs and antibiotics to kill everything in my digestive tract, and I was taking multiple other probiotics at the same time. So although I did have improved digestion, I couldn't have attributed just to Equilibrium. But recently I actually have been taking something called Bioseiden, which my previous guest, Dr. Emily Poetje, talked about. It's a, it's a botanical that cleanses your digestive tract of like parasites and viruses and bacteria and biofilms and stuff. And I had been starting to take probiotics at night. It was a probiotic that I had gotten at CVS. It was meant to be a copycat probiotic for one of the major brands that I like. That has primarily like Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria. And I was having terrible bloating. And I mean, every single meal, no matter what I ate, no matter how much I ate, I felt terrible. My stomach was just a balloon. And, and then I read those recent studies that were citing the fact that some probiotics may be harmful after antibiotics because either they just don't— or useless, they don't settle into our systems, or they may cause bloating. And so I decided to switch it out for Equilibrium, and within a day the bloating went away. So I had been totally blown up, and then literally in a day that went away. And it had been several days that I've been suffering with that. So I have to say, I'm totally sold now. I had, I had been philosophically sold, but I'm totally sold on my own personal experience now.

Yeah, and I mean, that's something that should be said, uh, even if it's not the best for the marketing point of view is that, you know, probiotic, whether it's actually helpful for a given person, no matter how robust the science or the idea behind it is, it's still going to be dependent on what's currently in your digestive tract, your genetics, your diet.

Right.

And the state of your immune system as well. So, you know, for some people, Equilibrium is not going to have any effect. And maybe it will when they're feeling ill.

Yeah, I tend to think of Equilibrium as the thing that I'm definitely going to go for if I've taken antibiotics because it is based on a healthy gut. That's the thing that I want to restore my gut with. Right.

Although, like I said before, you know, the holy grail that ultimately we all want to get to is a personalized gut microbiome based on your own genetics and diet.

Right. But my theory for that one is you just take your own stool, you stick it in the freezer, and you wait until you have to take antibiotics, then you reinsert it.

Well, if everyone had started out with a good microbiome, that would be— that would be excellent. But as a general rule these days, the microbiomes of most people in industrialized countries are lacking.

Now, why is that, in your opinion?

Well, as we talk about on our website, The problem comes down to food sterilization. And I mean, I'm not going to say we should get rid of food sterilization because it's important not to have outbreaks of various terrible foodborne pathogens.

And which foods are sterilized? Everything. Which fruits and vegetables?

I mean, they can't sterilize the inside of them, but yes, basically everything is given a pretty good, uh, is given a pretty good washing. I mean, Obviously they can't put isopropanol on the— on your pear or what have you, but they do wash everything. And, you know, the washing is meant to get rid of any bacteria that may be on it. So yes, everything. And in addition, for most industrial farming, basically in many industrial farming applications, everything in the soil is killed before they start growing anything. So these plants are grown in a fairly sterile environment to begin with, and then they're washed, and then everything on them is washed so that, you know, they don't have anything, anything live on them before they go to market. And I mean, they can't use too strong a sterilization agent on fruits and vegetables, but they still do manage to get rid of most of what could have been on there. And then as far as everything else, anything packaged, yeah, it's been— everything is sterile.

Okay. So clearly there's a lot of research on the benefits of a small number of strains of probiotics that tend to be in most probiotic supplements. And I'm wondering why Equilibrium doesn't have those strains in it or how those strains differ from the strains in Equilibrium. Like, and I'm thinking mostly about the Lactobacilli and the Bifida bacteria.

Okay, well, a couple of different things. Oh, many of these strains that you find in over-the-counter probiotics do not actually take up residence in the gut, which isn't to say that they can't help, but they will just be passers-through because most of them are used to ferment dairy or what have you. They're not actually adapted to grow inside a mammalian gut. So, I mean, while they're there, they can help, but they're definitely not going to take up residence.

Mm-hmm.

Now, to be fair, there are some strains and species that actually are well studied and are found to take up residence in human guts, and you can find them in the more expensive supplements. In terms of why we don't have those, a couple different reasons. One is that, like I said, we're aiming for an ecosystem, not a hodgepodge of various random things that we have finally gotten around to studying and that we know work and that we know, you know, individually have health benefits but don't know how well they get along. So that's one part of it. We really wanted to focus in on the ecosystem bit and on having everything that we're actually including was initially part of an ecosystem. So, that was number 1. And, number 2 was basically, as I said, we have our own master stocks of all these things. And, part of the other thing was the strains that we grew from the ecosystem because your gut, a healthy gut contains 100 trillion bacteria in it or something around that number. Well, actually, it depends on where you live and what your diet was, etc. But in the best of conditions, you know, there are many, many, many strains, much more than 115 in there. The 115 were ones that we could grow easily, basically, is what it came down to, because growth conditions for different strains are actually problematic because we are growing each strain individually and Yeah, we use one substrate for all the different strains.

That's the flaxseed meal or—

No, no, no. That's the prebiotic that we package it with. I mean, when we're growing it in the lab.

Oh, okay.

And that we won't disclose, but— Okay.

That's the secret substrate. Okay. So in a bottle equilibrium, it says there's 1 billion CFU. Now there's some, you know, products on the market that advertise, you know, 50, 90, 50 billion, right? Why does it— tell me about that, that difference.

So when Veltran originally was formulating this, you know, if you look at fraction of bacteria in a, in a human gut, which as I said was 100 trillion, whether you have 1 billion or 50 billion, it's a pretty small fraction, right?

So it's like a drop in a bucket versus a few drops in a bucket.

Right. So basically we went into it with the idea that, you know, as long as there were enough colony-forming units to make, to start forming, to start growing within your gut, then assuming that your gut conditions are reasonable for those organisms, they'll just begin to flourish. And it might take time and it might take reseeding on a daily basis for a while, but eventually you'll get growth. You don't need to put 50 billion. There's no point. It's still going to be a fraction of your microbiome.

So do you think people are throwing away their money on these high, high billion count or CFU count?

I mean, I've heard some interesting arguments for them, but I haven't seen anything that proves it one way or the other.

And do you think it matters based on the strains? Like some strains don't need billions, whereas other strains do?

Maybe. Like I said, I've heard theories on this, but I haven't heard definitive evidence one way or the other. Okay. So, I mean, I'll keep an open mind about it. I don't know.

Okay, fair enough. So I've done personally, I've done the both the American Gut Project sequencing of my microbiome, and I've done a few of uBiome sequencings, and the more recent version tells you what you you have and don't have compared to healthy gut. And I don't have Akkermansia mucifila, which is an anaerobic bacteria, meaning it dies in the presence of oxygen. So I haven't been able to find any probiotic that contains it. So I'm wondering, why can't somebody produce one? Because obviously they use it and study it in labs, and they managed to get it into animals to study its benefits. So how come it can't be produced? Would it just be too expensive?

So I'm not entirely sure why acromancy hasn't made it into a probiotic yet. I know that they— it does actually— they are actually probiotics that have this in other countries. Japan, I know, has— Japan, I know for certain, has one. Really?

I'm going to find it.

Finding it available for export is always tricky.

I'll find someone who lives in Japan. I'll make it happen. If I have any listeners in Japan, feel free to mail me a box, a bottle of Akkermansia mucifila, and I'll reward you.

I don't remember if it was that species, but it was definitely an Akkermansia supplement that they have there.

I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of the supplement offhand, but I know it is possible to get an anaerobic bacteria into a probiotic and keep it alive. Sure. So how come— but you don't have any anaerobic strains in equilibrium?

Some of the strains in equilibrium can certainly survive, certainly have the— well, they could have the genetic capabilities to survive in an anaerobic environment.

Right. But they don't die in the presence of oxygen.

No, this is true. Pure anaerobic. Yeah, I don't think we have any pure anaerobics there. So your question is, why don't they— why aren't they more—

why or why isn't that in a probiotic? Why is that? Is it really— would it just be expensive because you'd have to have like an oxygen-free growing facility or—

I mean, it shouldn't be that expensive. I'd actually— we've actually— I've actually thought a little bit about getting it, about making an Akkermansia supplement.

I should do it.

I'll bear that in mind. I just—

I'll get you some investors.

I haven't had time to really pursue the idea.

Okay.

But yeah, to be entirely fair to everyone here, my training is not as a biologist, so there might be something I'm missing. But I know that a supplement exists, at least one supplement exists for it in the world. Okay. And as you said, people do grow it and use it for testing in lab animals, etc. So I don't see any problems that can't be overcome.

Yeah. Well, it's one of the ones they say that, that, that is, causes people to be thinner or associated with being thin.

I've also seen studies that associate it with extreme old age as well. People that survive.

Exactly. So I got to have it. I got to get that bacteria back.

Okay.

So is there any way you might find an anaerobic bacteria like that on food or in food?

I mean, people used to naturally come by it all the time from what I've read.

I actually— Where does it live in nature? I'm hitting you up with biologist questions, aren't I?

You are indeed. And I'm afraid I don't know these off the top of my head.

And your background is what?

Physics.

Physics. Okay, got it. So moving on then. I know there's another product that General Biotics sells called Equilibrium Boost. Can you tell my listeners about Boost? Sure.

So as I said earlier, when we were talking about, you know, how many CFU you need, etc., I said that, you know, it might take multiple long-term reseedings before you actually get significant growth of the, of the microbes in our probiotic in your system.

Which is just a way of saying you need to just take this for a while.

Yeah, basically you need to just take this for a while before you get growth.

Yeah.

So Boost is our foray into seeing if larger dosages actually do help people get started faster, start growing faster. If you get a large initial dose, it's only 2 pills. The idea is basically just 2 days of a higher concentration just to start you seeding faster, hopefully, and also possibly to address like an acute bacterial infection in your gut if there's something else going on with you right now.

Like a C. diff infection or something?

Or— Yeah, C. diff infection or even something much less, much tamer than that, like diarrhea or something.

Right. Okay.

Where you're just kind of trying to give an initial battle to whatever pathogen is down there.

And how many CFU are in Boost?

It's a factor of 10 more, so 10 billion in each pill.

Okay. So I think of Equilibrium as a relatively undiscovered probiotic, you know, small, mostly unknown by most people. Just, you know, you can get it online or from healthcare practitioners, not in stores. So do you have any plans to scale up production or start selling it in more stores or advertising to get the word out further?

To be entirely fair, we do actually sell in some independent pharmacies. We just haven't been picked up by any chain.

Oh, okay. So is that countrywide or in a certain area?

Countrywide. We're just kind of in random pharmacies here and there across the US.

Okay. Fair enough. So, but do you have any plans to scale up or?

Uh, yeah. Part of it is we actually need to upscale our production and we're working on that right now. And once we do that, we can, you know, we can start thinking about moving into a big chain store. But before we have like large manufacturing facilities at our disposal, it's, uh, it wouldn't be a great idea.

And where is Equilibrium currently produced?

It is produced in California.

Okay, so it's American-made.

It is indeed. In addition, we'll be switching over to large-scale manufacture in the next few weeks, and that will still be in California.

Okay.

And so where can people find Equilibrium currently?

They can find it on Amazon, on the General Biotics website. Yeah.

EquilibriumProbiotic.com as well.

That one too.

Okay. That's Walmart too, right? Walmart Online.

It's at Walmart Online as well.

Yeah.

So you can find it in any of the big any of the big online marketplaces right now.

Okay.

And if you're really lucky, you can find it at a local independent pharmacy, but I wouldn't bet on that one.

And I should mention that there is an online affiliate program if you're a passionate user or a healthcare practitioner who wants to sell Equilibrium but not keep stock of it. You can write equilibriumprobiotic@gmail.com to find out more about that. Yeah. So any, any closing thoughts about Equilibrium or probiotics or the life in general?

Yeah, I suppose I would say that if you're interested in probiotics, I would definitely give Equilibrium a shot. We do offer a money-back guarantee. So if it doesn't work for you, you're really not out anything, especially since our study showed that there were no worse side effects than placebo.

Mm-hmm.

So I think it's worth giving it a shot if you're interested, if you're interested in improving your gut health or just trying out a probiotic. As far as I know, nobody else offers the money-back guarantee in terms of just satisfaction.

Well, that is unique. Okay. And what is it? What is the website for General Biotics?

GeneralBiotics.com.

Okay, great. Well, thanks so much for coming on and talking to us about this. Thank you.

So thanks for listening, and I think, uh, Zsasztesz was too modest about his product and the study results, so I'm going to give one more small plug, which are the study results reported on the Generalbiotics website, which were number one, that all participants who had previously experienced post-meal discomfort reported a substantial reduction or complete relief after taking Equilibrium, and 81% of participants reported a noticeable improvement in digestive function, 72% of participants reported a reduction in food cravings and mild weight loss. 54% of participants reported an increase in alertness and energy, and 45% of participants reported reduced stress levels. And in the show notes, you can find links to the Generalbiotics website and the email, uh, and the full study results, links to Equilibrium in various marketplaces, and my website. And if your New Year's resolutions to lose weight or cut back on sugar aren't really working, please reach out to me. As a health coach, my job is to keep you accountable to achieving your goals, losing weight, and naturally improving your health. And I'd love to set up a call with you on the phone or Skype or FaceTime or whatever you're most comfortable with to talk about how I could help you achieve those goals. So reach out to me anytime at Lindsey, that's L-I-N-D-S-E-Y, @highdeserthealthcoaching.com. I can coach you from anywhere in the country. And do check out the testimonials on my website. I promise I didn't make any of them up. They'd be much more impressive if I had. And here is to a healthy gut.