#1 Joe Delaney - The Start of a New Era

I like seeing something on a screen that gives me a feeling or conveys an emotion that is obscure. Yeah, something that I can't quite describe, and it's just— no, it's just feels. Yeah, can gradually improve your risk tolerance, right? Yeah, and get you out of the mindset that everything is always going to be worst-case scenario, and the— and what can happen, will happen. Love and worry are just, just linked forever. You just cannot give a shit about something without also— you get the pain with the pleasure, man, you know what I mean?

Welcome to the Rob Lipsett Podcast, a place where you can come to get motivated, inspired, and informed. Each week I'll be bringing on industry leaders, top CEOs, entrepreneurs killing it in their field, and dedicated athletes and other inspiring individuals. So So sit back, relax, enjoy the podcast. Episode 1 of the podcast, we are here with Joe Delaney. Joe has built up one of the biggest fitness channels in all of the UK. He's the owner of Push Fitness app, which has blown up in recent months, and just all-round great guy. So Joe, how you feeling today?

I'm feeling great. I'm ready to be guest number 1. I appreciate the honor bestowed upon thee.

There is no other person or no other way I could start off this podcast than having yourself in, Rob Lipsett, as guest one. But to make it even better, we're going to start off with a poem.

A poem?

A poem.

Okay.

That I've prepared for you. Okay.

Okay. Exciting one.

Yeah. Are you ready?

Yeah, yeah.

So you've been my friend for 8 long years. You've brought me laughs and also to tears. We started this journey at the same time. You've passed me out in subs, but it's cool. I'm fine. Your first viral video was a Tinder vid. Now you're at the stage in life where you're having a kid. From Australian yacht parties and having long curly hair to cruising around Ibiza I'm going out in the tear. You've definitely been through some wild stages in life, but now you're about to settle down with a wife. From doing the figure of 8 to baby due date, your progression as a man has been nothing but great. We've had our ups and downs, but you're still my bro. We can all agree Joe Delaney is our hero.

That was emotional, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, there's some effort gone into that one.

No, no, I've been preparing it.

It was like a school talent show entry. It would have come at least third.

I've been preparing it all week, but there's so many people that have probably just joined your journey in honestly the last year. Like, your channel has just seen the most growth it ever has been, and there's so many people that wouldn't have a clue of where you came from, where you started. I have a slight idea, but I actually don't know too much. So let's start from the genesis of Joe Delaney. Let's go back to school. I want to know what 16 8-year-old Joe was like in school and what— how you progressed from there.

Okay, so do you want me to eventually come to how I ended up doing what I'm doing now? You go, is that the end goal? Is that okay? Because this could branch off in many different, uh, directions. All right, so in school I was pretty— I was like in the top sets. I wasn't a genius by any means, I think that's fairly evident, but Uh, I was like bright enough, got on with my subjects, liked science, liked English, not so much the, you know, humanities, geography, learning about convection and rain and stuff. That's not ideal, is it? Anyway, uh, went to college, did A-levels, went to uni, did— studied maths, uh, pretty much just because, although I was probably better at English in school, I I didn't like writing a lot, man. This, this is how old we are. We used like pens and paper. It's like papyrus and parchment, man.

Ruled the page.

We scrawled on the inside of caves. Um, and I felt like maths was pretty good because you could just get the answer. What I did all right in my degree, but really not through actually understanding anything. I just would figure out how to get the right answer, and I kind of liked that about maths. You could you could fake it really, as long as you got the answer, it's fine. You really need to know what's going on. Um, after that, I immediately traveled, uh, really just— I think a lot of people that age, they just don't feel ready for the workplace. Don't feel— you feel like it's over then. You have to be an adult, you know, do grown-up shit, man. And, uh, I feel like you're probably not prepared that well for it through even through school and full further education. Like you just do a lot of reading comprehension and learn, you know, useless facts, and you don't really get a grasp of what's going to be expected of you in an actual workplace. And I just didn't fancy it. Um, so I thought if you travel for a bit, you can at least put off any major life decisions, which is, you know, a theme that I've come back to many times.

Not anymore.

Yeah. Uh, and eventually, so I did a bit of a trip on my own. It was literally one of the sickest experiences of my life. Highly recommend. Um, came back and I looked for jobs, right? Like, type— get on Google, type in like maths graduate careers, and it truly just depressed me. Like, actually, not— maybe that's the wrong word.

No, I think it's about right.

Yeah, it was, it was, uh, I wasn't filled with enthusiasm, right? I feel like the whole applying for the whole hiring process these days is— it just seems like a really weird, like, process, you know. You have to have been through education, and you don't really have to have shown anything about yourself other than the fact that you can, you know, read books and regurgitate shit. There's not— that's really a very narrow definition of intelligence to me. Which is evident by the fact that when you see, you know, later in life, people that have done well aren't always the people who are the best at comprehension in school, right? Um, and really, you get into the, you know, you start applying for jobs, and you have to then, after having shown on your CV that you're good at reading stuff and remembering it when someone's timing you and looking over your shoulder, that you're not you know, Googling stuff, uh, like, then I have to go to an interview. Yeah, you then have to go to an interview, and again, it's, it's like, who can prepare best for an interview? Like, you could go on, like, YouTube now and be like, you know, interview preparation for whatever job, right? And they'll be like just boxed up questions that are, you know, ready to serve, and, uh, it'll be like Name a time when you have, you know, turned a weakness into a strength, or some, just some bullshit, right? And again, it's not, you know, trying to get you to display any qualities that would make you a good viable option to hire, other than the fact that you can Google how to prepare for an interview. And it's really the same skill that you've just— it's the one thing, it's just like reading stuff, remembering it, and regurgitating it. Like the stock answers there that you're supposed to give. And on top of that, uh, I wasn't really enthralled by the types of salaries that I was seeing advertised for graduate jobs. I feel like you go to uni, you spent— I mean, to be fair, I didn't really slog that hard. I did a lot of cramming before my final exams, but apart from that, just a lot of watching fucking Gilmore Girls and Scrubs and that, and just general, you know, E4 all day. There's some like inoffensive comedy that you can just put on in the background on E4, man. Uh, and so I, I just wasn't hyped up about that whatsoever. You know, you're going into grad scheme and you're starting on like some of them like low 20s, and I think, right, so take home like probably like £1,800 a month. And then if I want to drive a car, if I want to do this, if I do that, I want to move out of my mom and dad's house. And I'm like, that's not going to be enough, you know what I mean? That's not going to do me. I, I think generally, like, I mean, I don't want to get into economics, like, but I think generally, you know, it's a sorry state of affairs, at least in the UK. Like, some of the, some of the salaries that are flying about, like, it's pretty shameful.

Anyway, I was on the £1,800 take-home.

Yeah, yeah, that's when I was on 9-to-5 life, couldn't really Well, you know, having said that, I then got a 9-to-5. Yeah, which was, uh, really— I was really lucky, to be honest, because, um, one of my friends was already working. Just a contracting job where I would just walk into an office, people would tell— teach me for 6 weeks how to do something, and then I'd just carry out. And I was on a contract, so it was like pretty decent day rate, uh, but obviously no benefits, no pension, no holiday pay. You take a day off sick, you don't get paid, right? Yeah, but when you're young and that, you're not taking that many days off sick, you don't really give a shit about anything. You're like, just give me the day rate, that's actually a better option. Exactly. So this was the year when I really— and during that time I was working for a bank, for Bank of America, but that makes it sound more glamorous than it really was. It was literally just like plugging shit through an algorithm, like, you know, a human algorithm, and saying, you know, this person should be paid out this much for that.

It wasn't like Patrick Bateman, Wall Street.

It was honestly so unglamorous. For us. Like, and it was in a huge office where I was like, you could end up sat right in the middle of this office, so you're actually like really far away from daylight, which is just not, just not great for anyone, man.

Andrew Huberman would hate it.

I was— it's funny because quite soon after I started YouTube, I was like a kind of— I picked up on like these positive vibes, like phraseology, and used them a lot, and people knew me for being like a positive guy, right? In that, that, that era when I was working this job that I didn't like, I was not positive, man. I was really not. And it makes me think, is it just situationally you're really a positive dude, or are you just— you just happen to be in a good phase of life right now? And it's pretty easy to be positive when everything's sick. Yeah, yeah, I mean, um, so during that time I was really not, uh, just not, not enjoying myself. And that really gave me the, you know, it solidified the, uh, idea that I was not going to do this shit forever. I think the most, the most difficult thing for me to bear, right, was seeing other people care about like the work that we were doing when I felt like it was really fucking just not like, you know, I mean, like people would be talking about work on the breaks and on the lunchtime and I'd be like What the fuck, man? You're like, what? Like, anyway, so that was really the time when I decided I have to do something different, you know. And that was also a time when a few of my mates started— a few mates that had hung around in previous years, not, not even that recently, but in previous years, uh, like when I was in high school and stuff, all started going to gym, um, and everyone started training together. And it was like roughly the time that there was like a fitness scene online— the kind of beginnings on of a fitness scene. Like I have— you probably thought you were late to the party. I kind of felt like I was late to the party by the time I started YouTube because you're looking at like Chris Jones, Guzman, like who was the Nick something? Right, Nick Wrightman Augustus. Who's that dude who's like kind of nerdy?

Scott Herman?

No no no no no no! Who's the nerdy dude, man? Uh, he, he was not in that great shape physically, but he was like pretty on it with all the research and stuff.

Oh my, McCarthy.

Yeah, something like, something like that. No, anyway, yeah, we're getting sidetracked.

So we talk about that, we'll talk about the OG fitness scene all day.

Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, it was around that time there was like, there was like Z's was about, this is Tomato Tomato. And, uh, we started a few— me and a few of my mates, we started just making funny— what we thought was funny. No, I'd say they're objectively funny. Yeah, I watched some funny videos, right? Yeah, started making funny videos, not because we thought we're gonna blow up on social— there was no concept of like having a following then and being like internet famous or anything. There was no concept of that, so it wasn't in you. You start like through real pure intentions, like just to have fun, man. Because you like go in the gym and you just think, oh, this would be funny, and then you make a funny video. And we'd put them on Facebook, like not like a YouTube link and then, then like link on Facebook, like upload them directly to Facebook. Yeah, back in the day. And they eventually, like, people started liking them. Other people thought they were funny, right? We were just— it was honestly tits, like just stupid. Yeah, no, before that, before that Before that, there's a group of about 4 or 5 of us, um, and we were all doing this like for a while, and everyone gradually kind of dropped off. People are in and out of relationships, people just don't think it's funny anymore. I was always the one like pushing it, right? I was always the one like, oh, we should film this. Then I'd take all the footage back, I'd edit it, I'd upload it, you know what I mean? And I was always keen to have other people involved because I really— I like doing shit with people. Right?

Yeah.

Um, I, I just feel like doing stuff with a group of your mates or just with one mate is just infinitely better. Like, it's, it's more than the sum of its parts, right? You don't just get 2x the enjoyment out of it, you get like 4x. It like squares it, you know what I mean? It's like to the power of some shit. I forgot every bit of math.

Yeah, no, there's some math graduate.

Say Pythagoras.

Come on.

Yeah, yeah, adjacent angles one. So after that, so this, like, after we started making videos, a load of us, people started like dropping off. It was eventually just kind of just me and my brother. Yeah, eventually same kind of story, it was just me like pushing it all the time. And I was like, oh, do you want to come film this? And he was like, meh, yes, sometimes yes, sometimes no. And like, I guess I just eventually came to the conclusion that if you actually want to do this, you're gonna have to do it on your own, right? And I— and by that time, we kind of started to have like a following, which was super weird because soon it— because at the beginning it's just like people from your hometown who like someone said something, or they think they're dickheads taking the top off in the gym. Like, that's literally how when we started, you were a— you were classified tit for taking your top off in the gym, right?

Yeah, you were like, especially like the bodybuilding style gym that I trained at.

And now you go back and everyone's filming shit, it's normal. I'm not saying I did that, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know, it definitely is just completely—

it's like accepted. Everyone has a tripod.

It's a change of the times. Yeah, yep. So I eventually came to this conclusion that you know, I'm gonna have to do— if I want to do this, it's gonna have to be on my own. And I'd just about kind of got, I would say, enough people following me that it gave me the inclination that maybe you could actually do this as a career. This was a time when Joseph Rakic was like really at the height of his— like, he was like the original online fitness trainer, right?

It was like—

that was a time when you'd say 'Online personal trainer,' and people go, 'What do you mean online?' Yeah, 'How can you personal train someone online? Don't you need to be like spotting them on a squat or something?' No, you need to be like, you know, jumping jacks through Skype.

This is my mum talk.

That was when— yeah, that was literally when, you know, it was a new thing and people didn't really— everyone who, you know, had just heard the phrase, you had to explain it to them. That's— I didn't even say I was an online personal trainer. For years, pretty much. Yeah, because I just couldn't really be asked to explain it to people.

Like, what did you say?

Oh, just obscure shit. I would just— I would say I'm a personal trainer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, true, true. That's sometimes what I still say now. Yeah, favorite— depending on what situation I'm in, my favorite thing to say is I own a pancake company. Yeah, like that's the Willy Wonka. Yeah, yeah, protein pancakes.

That's a good one. I say software company. That makes me sound—

oh, that's sick.

Nice.

Yeah, yeah, like when I'm in like a I remember distinctly there was a moment I was in, in Ibiza. I think it was Pasha outside having a chat with people and, you know, everyone's going around, what do you do? And I'm like, okay, am I going to whip out like author, online coach? You know what, I'm in an abstract, but I'm going to go with Protein Pancake CEO.

Yeah.

And everyone's like, you know, it's funny, depending on which situation you're in, how you introduce yourself.

Yeah.

But yeah, back in the day, There's no online culture.

Even now when I— when someone asks me what I do, I don't say— even if I want to say YouTube, I say I make YouTube videos. Somehow feel weird about saying I'm a YouTuber. Yeah, I just say I make you— which is the same thing essentially, but I don't know why I just feel like saying I'm a TikToker, an Instagrammer. Yeah, yeah, I'm an influencer basically.

Worst word in the world. Yeah, influencer.

Uh, So, so what was the first, the first thing? And then, so I, so I started out really with a Facebook page, right? And then an Instagram account. And I didn't start YouTube for ages. You started YouTube a lot earlier than me because I remember.

Are you serious?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my God, that makes the passing out in the subs even more painful.

I don't know if you actually started it earlier, but you definitely like lent into it and were uploading regularly. Yeah, earlier. Because I remember like Instagram was good back then, and I was like, oh, my Instagram is doing decent. Oh, Rob's YouTube's sick. Yeah. And I was like, ah, but fuck it, because I've got Instagram, and Instagram's easier.

Yeah.

No, little did I know, like, obviously. Yeah. So, um, that was it really. And then I started— I did a PT course, did the most basic PT qualification I could get my hands on, just to, you know, just in case anyone ever fucking investigated me and was like, you can't write a training program, you know what I mean? No one's ever asked me about it. And I also learned fuck all compared to like—

Do you think to be in the fitness industry you need to do online coaching, you need to be qualified?

It depends to the extent of your coaching. You should certainly stay within the remit of your own knowledge, and you should be— if you are advising anyone on anything, not least being paid for that advice, you should really stay in your fucking lane and within you know, your knowledge. Because otherwise, you know, you, you're just a pretend— A, you're just a pretender, and you, you know, you just, you're really ripping people off with shit that you could just Google, right?

Yeah.

Or B, it's potentially fucking dangerous. Like, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I wouldn't say you need to, but it's a gray area.

It's not— it's just shitty personal trainers.

The reason why I'd say you wouldn't need to is because I did. And it did not serve me whatsoever. It was a waste of money, a waste of time. I learned nothing that I didn't either already know or that turned out to actually be useless info or actually bullshit. Yeah, you know what I mean? I learned much more late— later just by, you know, reading just the kind of bodybuilding scientific community online, like just reading stuff, staying up to date with studies and research and everything like that. That will get you so much further than a PT qualification, right? So I get it that like in gyms, in terms of like liability and stuff, you need to. But I think as long as you have a strong fucking disclaimer on your website saying if you go snap your shit up, don't sue me, then it should be fine. Like, obviously you just have to be responsible. There's often people who would come to me over the years— the extent of my coaching now is very limited, don't really do much whatsoever because I just focus on the app, but There's been many times over the years where I've just been like, listen, I can't really help you. You're gonna be best just going somewhere else because you've, you've got this issue or that issue, and I just have no experience or knowledge. Even now, like, I'll, you know, mention something about an injury that I've got in like a video or on Instagram, and someone will say, oh, have you got any advice for this because I've done this? And I'm like, you need to just see a professional. Yeah, even if I was a physio I think it would be remiss of me to fucking advise people via Instagram. That's not how you— that's not triage, man. That is not how you diagnose shit via a DM, like, you know what I mean? Yeah, getting pictures of people's swollen elbows and shit.

But going back to, um, qualifications, do you think going to college is necessary to be successful in today's day and age? This is the perfect clip, the perfect reel. Do you think going to college is necessary in today's day and age to be successful in life, whatever you deem as successful?

No, in a word, no. I mean, for me, it, it definitely had its advantages because before I was, you know, before I figured out what I was going to do long term, it allowed me to pretty much just jump into a job that was kind of decent money, even though it wasn't specific to my degree. They said you need a degree to have this job. Yeah, I think that will become less and less anyway. I really think the only, the only reason anyone should ever go to uni is A, if they want the life experience of it and they, you know, actually are sure that they would get that, because a lot of people go to uni thinking they'd get that and then 2 years later COVID's been the thing and you've done fuck all at uni, right? Uh, or B, if the degree is very specific to what they actually need to do and is actually like they need to do it. You need to go do an engineering degree to be an engineer. You can't stop— can't start knocking together, you know, buildings without architectural, you know, yeah, qualifications. Like, obviously there are things like that.

Yeah.

Aside from that, I really wouldn't. I know it's a— it's a fairly— I don't even think it is a controversial question anymore. I think more and more people are coming around to You know, and by the same token, if I was hiring somebody, I would not give a shit if they had been to uni if it wasn't specific knowledge that they needed for the job. Yeah, even if they needed specific knowledge for the job, as long as they could demonstrate that knowledge. Yeah, then I don't really care if they've sat in lectures for 3 years. You know, my experience of uni, I just— I basically went to lectures, took pictures of the whiteboard every time it was full before he you know, wipes it off. And then I didn't pay any attention and then just taught myself how to get the answer when I was back in my apartment, like revising for— just look through it and write, how'd you get from there to there? And that was it. Like, it wasn't really anything that if someone else had been through, I'd be like, yeah, I should hire you, you know what I mean?

I remember just like, I'd be in my— before I dropped out, I'd be sitting in it and like, I'd be looking at the teacher or the professor or whatever, and like, I was doing a business degree and I'm like, These guys never started a business. I actually asked him one day, I was like, have you ever like started a business? Like, no. I'm like, what am I doing here? Yeah, yeah. And are you gonna make your, uh, your kid go to college? You're gonna push them towards that?

Most certainly not, no.

All right, we'll go again because you can't do gender reveal.

Wait, you can? Okay, yeah, okay, it's already done. I already said—

oh, you already said it?

Yeah, I already said— okay, because I didn't want to do like a reveal thing. I just already just said boy in the initial pregnancy announcement.

So are you gonna make your kid go to college?

No. Let's move on, next question. All right, they can do whatever the fuck they want, right? Do you know what I mean? Um, all I think you want for someone else is that they try at something, because regardless of what it is, regardless of whether you think it's your passion or something that you're gonna, uh, you know, pursue forever, just the act of trying and persevering at something is good for you. Yeah, right. And then eventually you hopefully want to settle into something that, uh, either you enjoy doing or you get paid well enough to not enjoy. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

And so we have the bank and we have the online coaching. What path do you think you would have gone down if it wasn't for the fitness social media life?

Ah, it's really difficult. And one that I, I probably wouldn't have enjoyed, like a lot of A lot of maths graduates end up in like actuarial science, like insurance statistics, you know, accountancy type stuff. It's really— that's not my— some people, you know, I suppose if you persevere with anything, you can probably get to a point where you enjoy it, right? If you get to a level where it challenges you, but I mean, that's just a, that's just a theory. I'm not sure because I don't really, I don't really know if I would have gone into anything like that, if I would eventually ever. And it's a big gamble to take because you might be 10 years in thinking, oh, just one more year, I might start liking it, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's hard because you have to give things a chance, and I think a lot of time people write things off too soon. Um, but on the other hand, like, you need to know when to draw the line and when you're just like, this, this ain't it, man. Um, I have other passions. Like, I think if I could have done anything, uh, I would probably make— I'd probably make films, I'd probably make movies. Like, I'd love to like direct shit, whether it's like, like full-scale, you know, like feature films or just like shorter things. I don't know, I love to kind of— I'm interested by— I like seeing something on a screen that gives me a feeling or conveys an emotion that is obscure. Yeah, something that I can't quite describe. I just know it's just feels. Yeah, that's what I— that's when I'm— and I'm saying feels about something, what I mean is it's something that that is better communicated by visual and audio experiences than words. Because I feel like, you know, the English language, although I love it, it has limitations. And there are, there are things that you can't— you're never gonna be able to transplant a thought precisely from my brain into— what, a thought or a feeling? Yeah, precisely from my brain into your brain merely using descriptive words. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We need to plug the fuck in. That's it. Yeah, one day, one day, you know, you'll plug in and you'll just get the exact emotion that someone's feeling. Because that's all, you know, when something sick happens to you, or, you know, even you just go to a restaurant and have a really nice meal, right? You could meet your mates and you're like, oh yeah, I went here last night, it was sick. Yeah. And you really describe, and you've got this urge to make them understand what you what you experienced, right?

It's my orange, your orange, it's my red, you're red.

It's a human— it's a human urge to, um, want like common understanding, common experiences, like empathy with people. And like, that's why we were so keen to, you know, tell people stories of stuff that happened. You're like, oh shit, you want to be there, because you never feel like you can quite— you've quite driven home just how fucking good the pasta was, man. Or just, just whatever it was, like, you know what I mean?

Sometimes you don't even bother. It's just like, you've got a fact.

Exactly. Like, you wouldn't understand, you understand? And that's like the kind of— in a sense, that's kind of good because you leave someone to the unknown. But yeah, I think it's interesting. And I think like that's one of the reasons why, you know, films interests me. And like video, you know, kind of like media interests me, that kind of thing. Because I like human experiences, I like seeing other people have them, um, and I like just fucking basking in the feels.

Yeah, yeah. I remember you actually said to me, like, it would have been like 4 years ago, you wanted to be a director.

It would be sick, I think.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's also great recently your editing, everything has reflected that. Like, I can't believe you do all your editing and the— you're trying to tell me that you draw shit on an iPad.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, that's very creative. Like, that's, that's very hard to do. Like, I think you definitely work in a creative industry.

It's honestly my actual editing, at least for the— it's funny because the editing that I do for the fitness videos is like certainly more technical when you're like keyframing stuff, and I do a little bit of like motion stuff Uh, only if there's not some kind of plugin or some kind of easy way to do something, I'll then like make something in Apple Motion, which is just like a— it's a really basic— it's not like Adobe stuff or anything, it's just a really basic like, um, motion graphics application. But you can— the good thing about is you can drag stuff into Final Cut from it, so you can make your own plugins and stuff. So the editing for the fitness YouTube is definitely more like technical. Yeah, but I also don't enjoy that as much. Yeah, I'm gonna make videos for my, just my personal channel, um, and I'll make just a montage of clips from, well, a load of travels or something, and all I will do is time the clips, like cut them, decide whether to put one at 50% speed or not, and pick a track that goes, that's it.

Music is so—

all I will do.

It's so impactful. And I've only realized recently, like, the song— Joe actually makes it so much easier. Sometimes I can be arsed editing and I'm like unmotivated to edit, and what I do is I load the song into the timeline first.

Yeah, yeah.

So it kind of perks me up and makes me happy and, you know, makes it fun to edit. So powerful.

So those videos that where I've done actually really minimal editing, they're the ones when people leave comments saying, oh, the editing is sick here. And I'm like, it's really not editing. Yeah, it's really just shot selection, which I think is another— like, it's a really nice, to me, like a creative outlet to choose, because I've filmed so many hours of content over my life, whether it's like fitness stuff, non-fitness stuff, like travel stuff, whatever. And if you're putting together a video, I think what matters most is just the shot selection. You might just pick a few frames, you might just pick 1 second out of a minute clip. And if you pick the right combination of seconds and then find the right track that conveys the right kind of feeling, all of a sudden you've got something that you can't actually describe, like it's just better, man. That's just where I just love that kind of thing.

So yeah, and so you've done a complete 180 on your channel. Like, if you go back to your first videos, which I was doing last night, and compare them to the videos now, I wonder how many people have done that of your recent subscribers. They're completely different. So a few things I want to talk about there. First of all, what made you do that? Okay, that big switch.

Yeah, so there are a few reasons, right? Um, First of all, me, you, uh, Guzman, Mariah, like a load of them, right? We exist in this weird niche, right, that is like— or orig— this, I'm talking about my older stuff that was like fitness vlogging.

Yeah.

So it's like, is it fitness or is it a vlog, right? And really what it is is just a normal vlog like any other YouTube vlogger.

Yeah.

Except you go to the gym every video. Yeah, right. And I thought, what's the purpose of that kind of content, right? Because if someone wants to— and you might title it with an informative title, it might be like how to get abs or some shit like that, right? And actually 17 minutes of a 20-minute video will be you with your girlfriend in Mallorca or some shit, and then 3 minutes is a, is a, is a video is like you training and you mentioned something about like your current ab workout or something. And I'm like who does this serve well, right? Because people who want to just watch vloggers, there's a couple of reasons that they want to watch the vlogger, right? It's either for the person, which you get with like people who actually spend most of the vlogs just out there talking to camera. It'll be a girl doing makeup for 25 minutes, but it's actually the personal element and it's like the individual that people follow. Or it's the, the content outside of the person. So people who do it, like Jan Aalson and that— Jan Aalson isn't a personal— he doesn't let you in really on his personal shit that much. It's look at this, right? So it's either look at me or look at this, yeah, right? And with this weird place that we existed in, this fitness vlogging, I was like, what am I doing here other than kind of just like stroking my ego a bit, getting people to like look at, you know, I didn't really enjoy it that much. Eventually I got to the point where I was like, I can't pinpoint like a person that is getting something out of this video because if someone wants to know how to get in shape, right, they watch an informative channel that's going to tell them how to get in shape. Yeah, they want the opposite of that. They don't want a tiny nugget of information in sea of other shit. Yeah, right. And if someone wants to watch a vlog, then why are they gonna watch a vlog where 4 minutes of every video is you in the gym? That's kind of fucking boring, right?

Yeah, yeah. People always say I skipped the workout.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right. So I got to the point where, one, I was questioning the content itself, uh, and two, I actually thought my channel— I looked at my views, right? And over the space of like a few years, they were just like pretty stagnant, pretty stagnant. Um, because every year or so you like speak to your sponsors and stuff and they want to keep you or they want to fuck you off, and you're negotiating about money and you're like, oh, and you'd love to be able to say, ah, I'm getting more views on YouTube this year. But when you look and you're actually not, and it's the same or worse, you think, all right, so what's going on? So I had like a reassessment. This was summer 2019. Yeah, a bit of a reassessment. And I was like, so actually, when I make a video, what I'm doing wrong is catering to a very small group of people who already watch my videos. So if you only make videos for people who already watch your videos, then that group can only ever get smaller. So true, right? It can't expand. You're not getting passing traffic. Off, you know, a video that's got like 3 separate bits in the title and it's like, uh, grocery haul and planning my trip to Dubai and apartment viewing. Do you know what I mean? You're not really getting much. You're not getting no, no new people out of that really. And so, and everyone who already watches you is gradually gonna move on to different people or stop watching you because you get fucking boring, or, you know, stop watching YouTube because they grow up, or whatever it is, right? You know what I mean? Um, and so I thought it was a kind of— A, it was a dying— it was a dying strategy for me. Uh, B, I wasn't sure who it was really serving. And C, one of the reasons why my content was so varied over the years was because I, I had an urge to create different shit, right? Some days I wanted to do more fitness stuff, some days I wanted to do like I wanted to sit down and speak to people and communicate with people, so I'd do like a Q&A. And some days I'd want to do like travel stuff. And you end up with this melee, this big cocktail of different types of videos on each other. I thought it would be better if I just separated shit out.

Yeah.

And then every video, it's just for the people who want that video. So that was kind of a bit of a revelation. Let's go D. Reason number 4, I forgot where I am. I got kind of bored of showing people myself.

Yeah.

Right? Just pointing a camera at my face and saying, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, this is what I'm up to. Like, I vlog now on a separate channel that's super chill and I do one a month or something and it's purely when I feel like it, right? But when you feel like you've got to upload every week or every however long, you kind of, get to a point where you're making shit up. You're like, am I doing this because I want to do it, or am I doing it because I want to try and show people something? And if your life isn't 100 miles an hour, and which is really hard to sustain— even Jan Åhlsson has started making videos about when he gets a new fucking couch and shit like that, which is honestly just diabolical.

Especially if you're in the gym, you do the same shit every day. Like, we're routinely scheduled.

Literally, you know, you can't— you your life can't accelerate forever, right? Um, and so whilst it might be fun for people to like follow you on a journey over a certain period of time, like eventually you're gonna run out of shit to show people, right? Uh, and so I kind of got kind of tired of that, and I would be somewhere, you know, I'd be in Greece with my girlfriend and we'd be walking around. I always take a camera on me all day because I like taking photos, right?

Yeah.

I just like taking cool photos, or I think they're cool anyway.

Um, second page is better.

Yeah. And, uh, so we'd do something and I'd be like, shit, should I film this? And I'm like, oh, maybe I should film this. Maybe this looks sick. Maybe we should get a shot of this. And you wouldn't want to like miss a shot that you could have made, could have put in a vlog. And it just, it got really fucking weird for me. And I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna turn this channel. You have to pivot. This is another thing. If you're gonna pivot, you have to kind of pivot slowly or gradually, I think anyway, um, or just start a new channel, like, uh, and so I kind of made this conscious decision that, you know what, I'm actually gonna make videos that have a target and have a purpose, and every video is gonna deliver something for people, right? It's not— it's no longer just gonna be try and get a few views and essentially just try and make people think that I'm a sick guy. Yeah, I mean, which I felt like a lot of my, a lot of my earlier stuff, like maybe a lot of it, it was just too introspective. I get bored of myself, man. I get bored about thinking of me, about myself, talking about myself, you know, filming myself. Yeah, like, and I just thought like, how much of this is just tied to me fucking ego, right?

Yeah.

So I just started making informative fitness content because I thought, this is what I've got an interest in, this is what I'm good at. Um, I'm not the best at, you know, keeping things short and sweet and delivering information in a concise way, right? Because I have tendencies— my brain is firing off everywhere. I want to follow a thought like a fucking, you know, dog with a scent. Like, I go down this rabbit hole and that rabbit hole, and then I try and bring it all in together It's— I'm not the best at it, right? But I'm trying to get better at it, and I think I have got better at it, you know, over, you know, a couple of hundred now, what I would call informative fitness videos, right?

And I forget you started doing them in like 2019. It seems like just like a year ago you did this pivot.

I have to kind of couple this with a, a better understanding. This came with an epiphany for me. Kind of about YouTube, right? So there was one video, right? I saw something funny. I saw in a comment— I used to watch this MMA channel, it was called like MMA World or something like that. It was just like a news channel. It was like, I had old yellow writing and shit.

I think I see it actually. I'm following.

Yeah, yeah. And it was like, oh, someone's booked a fight, someone, or someone said this, or someone, whatever. And, uh, the— I saw a comment under it and it was somebody said, you're just putting random red circles on the thumbnail now, like, and there's nothing new. And I was like, is that true? And it wasn't true. There was— it was like, well, it kind of was. There was red circles like showing something, and it was like a photo, and then it'd be a red circle or a red arrow towards something. I thought, maybe they're on to something.

Yeah, oh man, people click for the red arrow.

So this kind of— then I tried it. Basically, I made a video, something about like what kind of shape I was in at some point in the court, whatever, I forgot what it was. And I— it was me stood there looking pretty shredded, like every fucking thumbnail.

Yeah.

Uh, and I put a red circle around like my abs or something like that, and it did pretty well.

Yeah.

And I thought, hmm, I'm on to something here. And, uh, I kind of got— I kind of learned a bit about— had an epiphany about YouTube, not just about thumbnails and titles, but like The fact that stuff should be to the point and you shouldn't waste people's time and you should have a target and a purpose for things and then deliver on that target and purpose. And I think, and a lot of people have this misunderstanding, have like this idea that you have to make every thumbnail like mad, like eye-catching and extravagant and all that. And actually, I think all you have to do with the thumbnail is make it as closely demonstrative of the title as possible. Right? So, I think if you look at the thumbnail, you should be able to, after a few guesses, kinda think, have a good idea of what the title might be, even if the title was covered, right? Do you know what I mean? So, if it's like, you know, "The foods I eat to stay lean," or some shit like that, it should be like you being lean, and it should be some food in the picture, or it should be you eating something, or something like that. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't have to be like, you know, the, the, the most eye-catching thing. It should be a clear image, of course, but it just has to be consistent with the title.

Yeah.

So I had all of these little epiphanies at the same time, and I kind of feel like I developed a bit of an understanding of YouTube. I still don't understand it fully because I still have videos that fall on the—

on—

fall flat now and again. I think this will do well and then it does shit, or I think this will do shit and then it does well, and I'm like, hmm, I don't have it all figured out, but like, I've definitely developed more of an understanding. I coupled that with a bit of a channel pivot. I thought, I'm gonna make a personal channel to put whatever I want on, and then I just put completely random videos on that, whether it's vlogs or random montages of anything or a fucking baby announcement, whatever the fuck I want to do. Like, I scratch my itch separately to my professional work, you know?

Yeah, I still don't think— so I agree with you on the informative stuff, you need to give some but I still think you've smashed it in both ways, that like showing the vloggy stuff builds up that hardcore community. Like, let's look at Christian's channel, oh, you know, all vlogs just completely, and has built up probably the most hardcore community in, in the whole fitness. So, but again, you probably have grown your channel more in the last year. So I, I think you're completely on the money with, you know, just providing value, making it informative, giving something, niching down. I still think though that you've built a sick community from the initial videos. Like, I think they have served you very well.

100%, 100%. Like, um, I don't know how many people are still watching the videos who originally watched it.

I think a lot.

Maybe a lot.

Yeah, I think a lot.

I don't know how well you can extrapolate from comments, right? Because if you— if a few comments say you're a dick, you're gonna think, shit, everyone thinks I'm a dick, or whatever, right? But I do get the impression that there's some people still around, right? Um, but you know, I don't— if they're not like— I'm not like— that's, that's fine, man. Like, I understand that my content has massively changed over the years, right? Uh, and if it's not to everyone's taste, that is, you know, entirely— I don't think that a relationship— because you do have a relationship with your audience, right? And I don't think that any relationship should be really based on blind loyalty. Like, I don't think that you should expect— like, I think— I don't want to ex— I don't think that I should expect people to watch my videos, right? I don't, I don't think that, oh, you've watched me for ages, now you've left me, now you've let— you know what I mean? As if you broke it. Like, you're gonna be mad about it? Like, or is it just because your channel doesn't serve someone anymore? Yeah, it's fine, you know what I mean? And vice versa. I think, like, if you can just be fucking normal, right, with people and nurture, like, a two-way relationship of, like, I don't expect anything from the people who watch my videos, I don't expect them to watch my videos, don't expect them to stick around forever, right? I'm just gonna try and make stuff that I think people will find useful, right? And hopefully that works, right? And by the same token, I would hate to ever become somebody who feels like every time something happens in their life, they owe their followers an explanation or some weird shit like that. I feel there's some weird relationships where it's like people are too sometimes a bit too like suck-uppy to the audience.

Yeah, yeah, you know, the worst is actually when on the suck-up, when it's all right to obviously ask for video ideas and stuff, but sometimes you do too much and it shows I don't have a clue what I'm doing, and it shows like you're, you're not being a leader, you're just kind of blindly guessing. And yeah, again, you're kind of just like you're asking It shows you're like not creative and stuff. And always the constant like, "I quit." They're the worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long do you think you are going to be doing YouTube? Or even better, so first of all, how long do you think you're going to be doing YouTube for? How long do you think you're going to be doing social media for?

Oh, it's difficult. I think YouTube, I think I will make videos for the foreseeable future, right? Fitness YouTube has most certainly got an expiration date on it, right? And maybe even any kind of professional YouTube for me, like as in making money off YouTube, has got an expiration date, you know what I mean? I'm not gonna make money from YouTube forever, right? I mean, partly on the fitness side, eventually I'm gonna get bored. Yeah, right. I don't think life's a bit too short. I, I, I've, you know, for better or worse, I believe that there's probably other shit that I could do and do well enough to, to live off, right? Um, and I don't want to be there, you know, longer than, longer than it should be, right? I don't want to be one of these people when you, you know, you're still making videos and actually you're just fucking hating it, man. Yeah, you'd just rather be doing something else because it will show. Like, yeah, it will show. Like And in a sense, that's why— there's one reason why you have to keep trying to improve, because otherwise it's gonna get boring for you, not just for your audience. It's gonna get stale as fuck for them, but it's gonna get stale for you as well, right?

Um, it's like being like a beginner lifter for your life.

Yeah, literally.

Yeah, it's gonna get bored. So, but social media, like, do you think segueing into like podcasts and stuff, like, I always look at like the people that watched most. Joe Rogan's like in his 50s, you know. Gary Vee, like the person— that's where I see myself when I'm 40, 50.

Yeah, I, I honestly can't say about that. I don't have much desire to be on platforms like Instagram. Yeah, really?

Well, you don't know what's going to come.

I have my, my personal Instagram, right? And I post on there these days like once every few months. Yeah, right, once every few months, right?

So I unfollow.

So that shows you really the extent how much I actually want to from a personal standpoint, right?

Yeah.

Um, even on my fitness Instagram, I'm relatively inactive, like, you know what I mean? Because I just get bored of taking photos with my top off or recording a reel because I'm trying to do what Instagram wants me to do. I mean, I feel like you can spread yourself too, too thin. That's why I try and just focus on my YouTube. Yeah. Um, so it's hard to say. I don't think— I, I don't think I'll be, you know, vlogging stuff and that, you know, into my old age. Like, I think I'll always be making some kind of videos.

Yeah.

They will not be portrait videos, like, you know what I mean? They won't be TikToks and Instagram Reels. They'll be YouTube videos, right? And they'll just be things I just want to make, and I don't really give a shit if you watch them. Yeah, you know, and that allows you the most freedom to actually make shit that people want to watch. It's the irony of it, really, you know. The more you grow a YouTube channel, because in a sense you have to like niche down, the less freedom you feel like you've got on that channel. That's why I made this other channel, so that I could express freedom without, you know, like harming my career, you know what I mean? Because no one wants to see just a random video on my fitness channel that's got nothing to do with fitness, right? Yeah. Um, and I think the longer you're doing it and more successful you become in it professionally, the more your creativity kind of gets stifled and you feel like you can't go outside your box. Like, but you need to, you need to.

Yeah.

Keep— like, now and again, you don't have to do it every video and come up with some new concept every video, but you need to try and think of something original because That's how everything starts, man. That's how, you know, the first person to do a 10,000 calorie challenge, it was original and full day of eating things. And the first person who swapped diets with someone and tried a fitness challenge for 24 hours and did all these things that are just constantly regurgitated in fitness now, yeah, someone was the first and it popped off. And they must have been sat there thinking, fuck me, that was a sick idea, you know what I mean? And I hope it encourages them to have to try more ideas, like, because otherwise we're just gonna live in this robot— robotic fucking world of everyone do like eating each other's diets and copying each other's video titles literally word for word. I saw someone loaded a video the other day. You've seen it, right?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Okay, someone uploaded a video. I won't name names, but someone uploaded a video the other day that was pretty much word for word except for the final two words, uh, an exact copy of a video that I did like 7 months ago. Thumbnail was the same.

What video was it? Like, you're, you're—

I'm not gonna say because then people will know, and I don't want to disparage the individual in case on the very slight off chance that it was coincidental. Um, but it was pretty much the exact same video on to the point where the thumbnail, the same words, you know, you put like a secondary title on the thumbnail, the same words were on the thumbnail. But then again, you know what, being charitable, I can't— maybe I copied the original off someone.

No, no, you won't.

I don't think I did, but maybe, maybe I did. Even without— sometimes I think something's original and put it up, and then I see someone else's video from like 4 months ago and I'm like, fuck, I must have like browsed across it, seen it, and then thought it was my original idea. So who knows, like, I don't want it.

Have you seen this, right? So Will Tennyson puts on a story, he was like, I can't believe this, there's this Brazilian YouTuber, like his whole channel's in Portuguese, and he copies Will Tennyson's exact videos, like word for word, thumbnail for thumbnail. He's got, he got like, he's got like half a million subscribers.

Yeah.

Hundreds of thousands.

You should do it in Irish.

Yeah, I know. I was like, can I steal some Brazilian's channel?

Yeah, yeah, literally.

But it's like, Will put out a story and like I clicked on and I was like, he's done like 100 videos and they're like the exact same, but you wouldn't find it because it's on Portuguese YouTube. And even your man's got like a big Instagram following. I was like, that is, that is graft.

Well, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we're talking about content creation. If you were to give someone advice on breaking into YouTube now, mainly YouTube fitness, what would it be? Some people say it's oversaturated. Personally, I don't think so. What's your take?

Yeah, it's definitely not oversaturated. Um, if I was going to give somebody advice, it would be specific, like almost technical advice rather than, you know, broad overarching, you know, 'Well, trust, do what makes you happy and be passionate about every video,' or something like, you know what I mean? Like generic advice like that is really, you know, you can figure that shit out yourself if you're just a normal human. Like, um, I would probably say, A, make sure every video has a purpose. B, make sure you can deliver on that purpose and in a way that doesn't waste people's time. Yeah, right. Don't go off into your video like with 3 minutes of intro. You don't have to justify it, right? If I want to do a video called, uh, how to grow calves, right, I don't have to start it by saying, I was on the, I was on the bus the other day and, uh, the guy sat next to me had big calves and it made me feel about my calves. And then so I thought I'd make this video about how to grow big calves. Like, you don't have to justify why you're making a video or anything like that. Get immediately into the title of the video from second number fucking one, right? Uh, so just limit your preamble, right? Uh, make your thumbnails clear and consistent with the title of the video. Yeah, make your title very to the point and exactly do what it says on the tin, right? So If your title is Home Workout Without Dumbbells or some shit, that's exactly what you should be delivering in the, you know, in the video. Um, I would say try to have an idea about— or, well, first of all, first of all, be quite ruthlessly be, uh, critical of your own shit. Yeah, right. Don't take anything for granted. Don't assume that people will watch anything because it's you, right? Because when you watch yourself— I watch my own, like, vlogs, like the personal ones I do, like, and I watch them back and I think, I'm funny as fuck, this is sick, everyone should want to watch this, right? But not everyone is watching me through that lens, right? If you're just— you have to watch through the lens of a stranger and be like, you know, would someone who doesn't know me want to watch this for the content, not for me, right? Um, so I've mentioned titles, thumbnails, content straight to the point. I would probably try and warn against being too, you know, like following trends too much because it's kind of a— there are things that work in titles, right? There are ways to structure a title, certain words and phrases that do well. For example, yeah, daily, daily routine does well. Yeah, you know, or I do this every day does well, right? Something like that. And you can incorporate those things into your title. But when you're, like we were saying, like carbon copying somebody else's content, it's going to get stale really fast. You see a lot of people doing videos that worked for Matt Does Fitness 2 or 3 years ago and fall on their ass today, right?

Yeah.

And you always— this is one of the complaints I hear a lot from like TikTokers. You have to stay up to date on it. It's a full-time job staying up to date on trends, right? I think like if you're informative, then you don't really have to be on trends so much. Yeah, that's another reason why I prefer informative style content, because it's— don't have to keep up with shit, don't have to put myself through stupid shit just for this. I don't want to be a spectacle. Yeah, I don't want to be like, this guy tried this and did this and did that. Like, some people do that. Will does that really well because he's genuinely fucking just engaging and funny, right? Yeah, he's a funny guy. But lots of people who aren't funny do it, and it's kind of shit.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so, you know, play to your strengths is another one. Maybe that's a bit too, too, uh, general. Um, whatever. Got titles, thumbnails, content. I think that's pretty much it, man.

Yeah, you know, um, do you think someone can either have it or just not have it, like have that X factor?

I don't think so. I, I think like if you haven't got it, you know, you can develop it. Like, yeah, I think that— me too. It depends, right, on your style of content. If you're a vlogger, you probably need to be a bit interesting. Yeah, some kind of level of enthusiasm might be nice, do you know what I mean? Just being generally an engaging person, interesting, sound— they're all going to be fucking beneficial, right? If you're a bit of a tit and you walk around in a mood every day, vlogging ain't really going to be your strong point, right? Um, but if you're just like teaching people something or offering some kind of informative style content, then you can, you can pick it up, man. All it is is like speaking to camera you know, pronouncing your word. I've tried to work a lot on how I pronounce. People might think that I've got an accent still, right? I have, of course, but me, self, like, yeah, me, I say me, I, I don't, I don't say, I don't pronounce me T's, you know what I mean? And so like, I'm trying, I try and be conscious of speaking a bit more clearly. Yeah. And then during your videos, you should make it somewhat engaging, right? Don't have like a minute-long clip of just your face talking, right? Illustrate what you're talking about with something. It doesn't have to be a perfect illustration, a diagram of the like knee flexion, right? Yeah, it could just be something funny, or it could just be a bit of text on the screen. Just give it something to be engaging, like put a fucking track in the background Like, listen to it with and without headphones so you know if it's just overly, you know, irritating or whatever it is, you know. I, I'm just like, try and make a polished video, you know. I mean, yeah, it would, it would really— it's amazing, like, how bad some shit is. Not that it— not that that's amazing, but what's amazing is that people don't realize how bad it is. But I've done that myself, like, back in the day. I've put something up and thought, this is a sick training montage, and it's like, you know, Android One, like, fucking shaky-ass clip and like 480p. And it's just, it's just terrible. You can't do the same shit with one camera that you can do with another camera, etc., right? Do, do things like light your scene well. Yeah, have good audio, right? Don't— if you're— you would be amazed, a lot of people, viewers, they, they're watching a video and they don't really know the mechanics of why it's good. They don't really know why they watch it. They're not going to pinpoint your video over someone else's and go, oh, you know what, that audio quality is really good, it makes it much easier to digest the video, or etc. Or like, you know what, there's a lot of like other engaging stuff on the screen here, it's like it's keeping me engage with it, right? A lot of this goes unnoticed, but it's important, especially for like viewer retention and stuff like that. Um, so I think like get into grips with the technical stuff. I suppose this is true of a lot of things. Get into grips with how to be good at it technically is probably gonna stand you in better stead than just give someone giving you just esoteric advice about like, you know, generalized stuff. I think that's kind of useless in a lot of instances. So yeah, what's that?

What's your favorite video that you've ever made?

Oh, that's really difficult. Uh, so after— I'm gonna contradict myself a bit here. So, ah, there are a few. There are a few.

There's like picking children.

There are a lot of like intro montages that I like. The Koh Tao one was good.

Yeah. Uh, also you're choosing the vlog ones.

I told you. Wow.

Yeah, I think the vlog ones like Phil Zieri, Joe Phil Zieri, yeah, are more dear to your heart.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, yeah.

One of them that I really was, I would say, proud of— I suppose I could say that, right? Um, I made one called For People Who Worry a Lot, and it was a completely random thought, and this was on the, the fitness channel, so I'm gonna book my own trend here. It was a few years back, like it was before I was fully you know, sunk into the only informative fitness stuff on this channel, uh, but it was just like I was just talking about worrying and stuff like that. And, you know, because I think like I was just giving my perspective on it really, but it got like a really sick response. Like the comments and everything like are just unreal, uh, and I kind of— I like that one a lot because it just seemed to connect with people. Yeah.

How do you not worry now? Do you worry about anything now? Uh, be honest as well.

Yeah, I mean, I am— I don't know if it's nature or nurture, I am generally quite laid back. Generally. I know, generally very late. I'm not a— I don't fret about shit. I don't worry. About anything other than, I think, stuff that I would consider absolutely justified, you know what I mean? There are very few things that, that concern me these days, like, um, but I don't know really if I could kind of take full credit for that. I think some of it is your innate— is just how probably how you brought up— some of it's probably your genetics, potentially. Some of it is your genetic, your disposition, your daily, you know, how you go through days, probably genetics. Some of it is your actual— one of the things that's like helped me to worry less is to create a life where I don't have that many fucking worries, man. Because I'm not about to sit here and tell someone who's living paycheck to paycheck not worry, right? Because that's worrying. Yeah, you know what I mean? And you can't just play like mental gymnastics with any scenario, you know. You, you should really try your best to be financially secure, right? You don't have to be rich, you just have to be— you should try your best to be financially secure and to stay healthy. And if you can do those two things, you're gonna take the majority of worries off you, off your plate, right? Now, they're a lot easier said than done. Some health things are completely inevitable, you know, etc., right? But you— the whole point is you do what you can, right? Yeah. And what you can't is, is inevitable anyway. Do you know what I mean? There is a, there is a statistical chance that I may get hit by a bus walking home from here, right? It's slim, right? And I'm gonna take precautions like like looking each way before I cross the fucking road, especially because I'm in Spain and they come on the other side. Yeah, near miss.

People like me driving, near miss on the way up, see the other side, right?

So, so there are things like— and that's the difficult thing, you know. So, so some of it is nature, nurture. Some of it is your actual situation. A lot of it, what you can do stuff about, is kind of habit, right? A lot of it is, is habit. I think trying to take— trying to expose yourself to slight risk, you know, can, can gradually improve your risk tolerance, right?

Yeah.

And get you out of the mindset that everything is always going to be worst-case scenario and the— and what can happen will happen, right? I generally assume that the worst thing isn't gonna happen, right? And that if it is, it probably would still be survivable, won't be that bad, right? But again, part of that is just because I've probably thus far in my life been fairly lucky that the worst thing hasn't happened to me, right? Um, but I do think just your day-to-day like thought processes and your habits can, can definitely have some effect. I think it's a mistake to assume that you are entirely in control of it, right? You know, because just like anything else, you're not. Right? Um, it's hard generally to assign like a level of like responsibility, like how much of it are you responsible for and how much aren't you responsible for. Yeah, that's a really fucking difficult thing, like how much credit to take for something or not, or how much blame to take, is really something you always have to try and just exercise your own judgment on because like on the one hand, you can't say to someone who's got genuine, like, things to worry about, oh, you're just being a pussy, man, you know, get out this fucking loser mindset. Like, that is just shocking, man. Yeah. Um, but on the other hand, you don't want to— you don't want people to feel like they're helpless either, you know what I mean? And these are two extremes.

Yeah, you need to find that fine, fine balance.

These are the extremes, right? And this is where just your judgment as a person comes in, right? Um, I worry not like occasionally about things. I don't worry about anything career-wise because I've saved enough money to not really, you know, to at least to survive off until I get a job or do something else if I really have to, you know what I mean? Um, I don't worry about health things because I'm generally in good nick. Uh, I am having my first child. That's probably the most anxiety that I've experienced for a long time because there's a child inside someone's belly and you can't see it and ask it if it's okay and be like, you know, you— is this normal? Like, is it— you know what I mean? Oh shit, the baby hasn't kicked for a while. Do I need to fucking phone the hospital or some shit like that? It's like This shit is, is like, it's just first baby syndrome, I think. Like, maybe I think it gets easier.

I think it's just quite worrying.

Like, I, I think it gets easier, at least from what people have said. Like, your second kid and stuff like that, second one, you're like, fuck it, let's have a fag in a while.

I'm number 4, no wonder I came out, they dropped me on my head.

Um, so like, I do experience some anxiety on that front just because like like shit that you care about so much. Like, it's just two sides of the same coin, man. Love and worry are just, just linked forever. You just cannot give a shit about something without also— you get the pain with the pleasure, man, you know what I mean? That's just life.

Yeah, you're definitely one of the most worry-free people I've ever met in my life. Have you ever gone through a stage where you are feeling depressed or anxious chronically? Because I know at one stage you're broke. When you moved to Australia with Tommy B, you said, you know, you had very little funds and you went off to Australia. So tell that story.

Yeah, but we want the rags to riches, Joe. I, I have had like zero in my bank account plenty of times, right? But I've always had a family where I could go back to my mum's house and look, kip on the couch, kip in a spare— not even the couch, have my bedroom back if I want to, which is pretty fucking— it's quite a safety net, right? So my zero ain't the same as someone else's zero, really. Like, I'm not saying it's not like silver spoon, you know. Yeah, but like, I could always go back in the room with Dad and he'd put food on the table for me. It'd be fine, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So like, that's the worst case scenario for me, was only just like social stuff, as in like, as in like, it looks a bit shit to be like, you're trying to go on a date with some girl and like you, you ain't got much to show her. Like, you know, I mean, not that you don't want to get into that, but like, you know, I mean, you can't be picking— you can't be picking her up in, in the original fucking— the first Vauxhall Corsa that you got as your first. That ain't gonna fly, man. Do you know what I mean? Not when you're in your 30s anyway. Do you know what I mean? It's entirely fine when you're younger and you find your feet. In fact, let me just go on a slight fucking— a slight tangent, please. I think in that sense, the tangent cast— in that sense, it's more about having a path and a trajectory and being driven and showing aspiration towards something rather than what you have right now. I think that's more accurate. Like, when it comes to like girls, dating, etc., I think girls gen— I mean, I don't really know. I'm not certainly not—

no, we're, we're talking about dating. Your channel started off as a dating channel, basically. Now we're going in on that, okay, right? Advice to all the single fellas out there who are trying to get a high-quality girl like Mags. What's your advice for entering the dating scene? I've got my take on it. What's your fundamentals?

Well, I mean, so what is the end goal?

The end goal is to get a really good long-term relationship with a hot girl.

Yeah, okay, okay. So I think when I was single, I would like to go into things as— go into things without expectation, right? So similar, they're gonna hear echoes of my attitude towards YouTube when I spoke about the relationship with you, with your audience, right? Um, go into things without expectation. A lot of time you'll meet someone, you'll meet a girl, and if the girl is like overly preoccupied with like settling down, you know, she says, oh, I've had loads of fun, I want to settle down now, or something like that. Like, it can be off-putting to you because you're like, why are you thinking about like minute 90 when we're on like minute 1, you know what I mean?

And you're like, oh, you had loads of fun.

I always, I always like to go into things with no expectations on like, where is this going? Like, eventually you can have that conversation, right? But from day one it should be like, let's just have fun, right? Let's just enjoy each other's company. Let's just improve each other's lives, right? And you can have that even with someone you meet once, right? You can just have a good time. Maybe later your circumstances change or you decide you don't want to see each other again, right? But I think like that's a good starting point, right? A starting point. And, and by the same token, it's, it's also like not what can you offer from a material point of view, but like what can you offer like as company. Like, do you know what I mean? What kind of person are you going to be to be around? Like, are you fun to be around? Are you engaging? Are you interested? Like, you know, and, and by the same token, you should expect something like that back, right? Yeah. I think, I think dating is somewhat— there's a weird culture of like Guys, guys are partly to blame because a lot of the time guys want like a trophy type girl and they really don't have expectations for what the girl is like personally.

Yeah, have you ever seen that thing? And it's like, um, a woman will want a guy to be like CEO, 6 figures a year, you know, 6 foot 5, and I know, I know this. And then it's like a guy and have a really good job and ambitious, and then the guy like doesn't care what she works at, it's just as long as she's hot. Yeah, so it doesn't care how much your finances, if she's in debt, there's like, we just want to fuck her. Like, it's so funny.

So they're obviously, yeah, they're obviously two extremes, aren't they? Like, um, I think my point is that like, you're, as the, as the male I don't like this assumed position of like you always want a second date. It's like, oh, is he gonna get a second date? Well, does he want one to begin with? Because you might have been boring, you know what I mean? But maybe he was, maybe he was a fucking— maybe he was weird, he came off like a creep, some butch, whatever, right? It should be a fucking equal playing field, right? This is, this is true. Like, this is true feminism, right? This is true modern fucking, you know, or like, it should be an equal— it should be an equal playing field. It doesn't mean you always have to have precisely equal roles when you're in a relationship or anything. You can do whatever you want, right?

It's—

I believe like you have freedom behind your— the closed doors of your own home. Like, you can run your relationship whatever the fuck you want as long as you're both there willingly. You know what I mean? You can do whatever the fuck you want, right?

Linda's currently laughing upstairs.

But I think like you should be going in with a completely even playing field. It shouldn't be like, you know, this, this weird assumption that the guy always wants to, you know, the guy wants to pursue it no matter what, and therefore he doesn't really— it's all about just angling for this. And that's what I hate. I used to hate language like, you know, oh, do you deserve my phone number? And I'm like, uh, I didn't realize this is a fucking job interview. I mean, deserve, or like, oh yeah, you have to work for it. And it's like, that's not a dynamic that I'm fully on board with. Like, and I wouldn't like it the other way. I wouldn't like someone to be like that towards me, do you know what I mean? Um, so I feel like you've got to start from day one with the intentions that you mean to go on with, right? Because you don't want that the other way. You're like, oh yeah, like the girl, like, was— she was— she acted all cool, and then once you're in a relationship, she's like jealous or something like that, or vice versa, right? Whatever. But I think you have to start from day one with like, you know, that you have to keep that same energy, right? Whatever you start with, that's what you gotta follow through. And you gotta show someone an honest representation of what they're gonna fucking get, right?

Yeah.

So that's, that's the first point, right?

Quick one on that one. Do you, do you and Mags keep a good standard with each other in a relationship? Like, do you— you obviously both hit the gym and everything, but like, do you knock, just as you mentioned there, to set the pace? Like, do you keep up appearance? Do you keep the standard high? Like, do you both like still make a good effort with each other?

Uh, in terms of like, I mean, there are levels to this shit. Like, obviously there's a basic level of fucking hygiene that you should maintain. Like, you know what I mean? Basic level of not being just a disgusting slob. Like, but then again, like, you see TikToks, some like girl farting on the dude and he's like not bothered. So each their own, I don't really give a shit, right? Whatever. Uh, personally, I spend a lot of my life needing a shave and in joggers, you know what I mean? Not really like bumming, but I don't spend life like stinking after the gym and shit. Yeah, I mean, so there are—

I suppose there are levels, like, whatever you I think the fundamental is Bodhi staying.

We put effort.

I actually, I actually think that's pretty much it.

Like, I think we put effort in with each other, uh, but effort that is— it's different. Not like effort to look, you know, effort is attention, you know. It's like paying attention to each other, listening to each other when someone's talking, not being fucking absent. You know, being, you know, being considerate of each other, um, things like that. Like, you know, and the thing is we both work from home so we can spend a lot of like actual quality time together, you know what I mean? And we do set time aside to go— it's not like fucking organized date night and shit, although there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes it's good to get, you know, um, but like I think the effort that you keep up with each other should be an effort of like kind of attention and personal, you know, like devotion in a sense, like, you know what I mean? And you know, there are a million things, right? Uh, where was I? So starting out, obviously just go in honestly, right? Just, just everyone should just go in from, from an honest standpoint. Don't misrepresent yourself, you know, it's gonna come on top at some point if you've said you're a CEO, 10K a day, and you're not, like, and you're just gonna like it. You wouldn't have looked like a dickhead in the first place if you didn't say that. You only look like a dickhead trying to show, trying to be the big man, right? Um, and then the other thing, I think, like, you have to give— this is my personal experience, right? You have to give things chance to, to grow, right? This is, again, this is kind of like the job thing. You don't want to stay in something for too long when you know it's just making you miserable. Uh, but on the other hand, like, you can grow into love I think. I don't think you have to love someone from the beginning, right? When I first was seeing Mags, if you would have asked me, pulled me aside and said, what do you want and what do you look for in a girl, I probably would have described myself with long hair. I would have said all the qualities that I thought I exhibited, you know. Yeah, just in, in a female version, right? Which Mags is actually in a lot of senses the antithesis of, the opposite of, right? And at first I was like, oh yeah, you know what, this— one of my mates actually said to me— Mags knows this, by the way— one of my mates actually said to me, would you ever like get with Mags, you know, like relationship and that? And I was like, nah, probably not. This was like really, really early on, but still, because I, because I thought that, right? Because, because having—

fast forward—

having a child together And then like we spent more time together, just out of like at first like maybe just convenience. Like it was just like, oh, do you want to hang out? Yeah, it was, it was always— this is— comes back to it just always being just fun to hang out without expectations, right? And, uh, eventually I kind of realized that although Mags wasn't me, she had qualities that I didn't have, you know what I mean? And maybe like, that's good because she can take things from me and I can take things from her. And if you only ever— what makes you, like, respect somebody, not just respect but kind of admire someone, is when they have qualities that you don't have. Yeah. If I walk in and do a backflip, you're not going to be impressed if you can do double backflips, right? You're gonna be like, just a backflip, right?

Yeah, I'm like, couldn't—

could have been currently. But if you've been doing forward rolls, you're gonna be like, fuck me, that's sick. That's probably a bad analogy. The point is, right, to admire people, I think they have to exhibit qualities that you value, right? And that you personally either don't have or lack or what, or, you know, uh, and that's not gonna be someone who is exactly like you. And sometimes it takes time to to, you know, uh, realize that. And so me and Mags, we really grew together. That's how I feel. We— it was not love at first sight or a whirlwind thing, right? Yeah, many— for the beginning, much of it was just like, thought each other was sound, hung out, probably fancied each other. That was it. I hope she fancied me. Yeah, I was one— I was probably better looking by then.

Yeah, you got better hair.

Yeah, well, maybe worse. 3, 3 body fat percentage points leaner. Um, and so we really, we really like grew together. And then I think once you're, once you're in a relationship— well, that's another whole kettle of fish. I'll wait, I'll wait for the next question in case that's fucking—

no, no, no, crack on, crack on.

I think by the same token, like, once you're in a relationship, um, there's, there's gonna be like a kind of feeling out process of like, where are our like boundaries? What kind of— what do we— what is normal for this relationship? And what do we expect from each other? And, you know, and like, where do our opinions on things massively— like, say it was like, how much quality time should you spend together, right? And where do those opinions massively differentiate? And is there, is there a compromise between them? And things like that. Like, and you're eyeing out and like I think that, you know, I don't think that love is— and relationships are like they're represented, right, in Hollywood fucking movies, right? I think they can be just as good. They can be just as good, right? But you don't get there the same way, right? It's a much— it's something that you couldn't put into a 2-hour fucking movie, right? Yeah. Um, And I think like there are general undercurrents of things that you have to be conscious of, right? Um, communication is the fuck— is the essential— is the core essential between anything, you know, that just underpins everything, right?

That's, that's it, you know.

Um, communication, just being honest, you know. And like, that's it really. Apart from that, I think you, you know if you can nail those two things down, like, and you can both be, uh, mature about confrontation as well, because there will be times like, like, I don't really— me and Mags, we do not like— and the thing is, everyone's different. I don't want to say this in like, you know, in the sense of like, if you're— if your relationship's different, it's worse somehow. Like, everyone, you know, has different, you know, ideas. But, uh, We disagree on shit, you know what I mean? Occasionally we'll like bicker stupid shit, you know what I mean? It will never ever come to like shouting.

Yeah.

And it will never be swearing at each other or things like that, right? It would never get that far. Only not because like some people probably have screaming matches and think that's sound. Yeah. And they get on better after it and whatever, and they make up and it's fine, and it can be— if that's healthy for them, it's cool, right? But that's not the point. The point is that you decide where your boundaries are, like where your boundaries in the relationship are, what kind of standards. Yeah, what kind of standards you, you expect, like.

Yeah. And so you spoke about on— you've slowly fell in love and sticking with each other. Do you think social media in today's day and age has given just people free rein and provide an open market. Like, you and Mags, I'm pretty sure, met in person. Me and Linda met in person. What do you think of how easily accessible nowadays— like, how Instagram is pretty much a dating app? Like, what do you think of that? Do you think it's healthy? No.

Uh, I mean, what do you mean in the sense of like people going astray? Like, yeah, like, it was always like, do you think grass was greener? This is what you could have won type thing.

Like, people give up give up on a relationship too easily?

Ah, it's— it would be— it's so hard to give a general answer to that. Like, I mean, I don't know, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Like, who— I, I probably couldn't say that in general people give up too easily. Like, who am I to— I, I don't think that— I think like in the first few years of relationship you'll probably go through phases. Yeah, there's like the honeymoon phase, right? That's the point where you're actually not comfortable yet enough with each other to pull each other on shit. And in a sense, that works well, man, because a lot of things actually are better left unsaid. Yeah, a lot of things are better left unsaid. If something like pissed you off or something, or you're like, what's that? What, what does that mean? Like, you know what I mean? Sometimes it's actually better to bottle that shit the fuck up, right? You know what I mean? Just shut up, like, and don't be don't be someone who's always got an issue with shit, you know what I mean? Sometimes, right? I'm not saying— but then you have to be the judge of when you need to communicate, you know? This is, this is where like there's, there's complexities, there's gray areas and context, because like you'll say like, uh, you know, communication is important, and some people would say that to mean like anytime you feel minor, like minorly aggrieved by something, or pissed off, or slightly annoyed, you have to, you have to voice that and say like, oh, I'm just, you I'm just telling you, you know, I'm just communicating with you when that ain't always that. Sometimes it's better you shut up, right? So you've got your initial like honeymoon phase. I think after that it's like a, oh, now we're comfortable enough to say, you know, no, this is actually not okay, or that's not okay, or whatever. Yeah. Uh, and then that's the difficult— that's the, that's the trough, right? Where you're like, right, you got to feel each other out and figure out the fucking dynamic and like where do you lie on, on all these different things.

There's actually a graph of that. I think it's actually when most relationships stop is just after the honeymoon phase. But if you keep going through that, that trough, then that's when most long-term relationships happen.

Yeah, I think after that it gets better and, and exceeds the initial honeymoon phase. I would say so. But everyone's experience is different. Maybe you know, we've only been together for 7 years or something. Maybe there's another— what's the— is the 7-year itch something? That's something in it.

I think people write something from this.

Yeah, yeah. So maybe there are more peaks and troughs, who knows, like. But hopefully you can just navigate them together. I think like on basic level, if you always just remember that you're on each other's side, man, you, you're on each other's side and you're not against each other. Like, that's— if you can keep that dynamic, like then, you know, you're gonna do— you're gonna do all right. And who am I to say if someone should persevere or they should cut the losses and swerve it? It's difficult. Life is difficult. Exercising your own fucking judgment is part of the whole fucking tapestry, man.

Yeah. Do you think having a kid, or you're about to, like, has that brought you mags?

100%.

And I'm jealous. I'm actually like, I want to have a kid. Kids soon. Yeah, you shouldn't have been talking about it, you know. We're like—

I feel like, like, obviously she's 21 or 20, 21 and a bit weeks or something, and like, already I feel, I feel like a dad already. I feel like I've got a kid. Oh, last— I didn't tell you this, I don't know if this is relevant to the podcast, but last night I actually saw a kick for the first time. Like, she's felt them, but she was like, look at my stomach, and so it just went just popped out and I was like, that's, that's fucked up, man. That's crazy. It's honestly sick.

So how does it feel that, that you're going to be a father? Like, seeing stuff like that, honestly, it's the best feeling in the world.

It really— honestly, I can understand it. Like, like I say, when you care so much about something, the kind of anxiety that comes with it is just— it's more than I've experienced. I think that's part of what's brought us close together, me and Max, because like, like generally I'm not— she's probably never seen me concerned about much in me fucking life ever, right? But now I've got something to worry about, you know what I mean? Now I've got a life to, to worry about that is just seems infinitely more important. Like, the rest of your life becomes utterly trivial. You really don't give a shit about— like, it puts everything in— everything just drops down a level in your priorities, right? Uh, and so I think that definitely you know, has brought us close together already. Uh, I mean, it's, it's very early days. I've not even got this kid yet, so, you know, let's see. But I'm sure it's going to be an adventure. I'm excited for it. Like I said, you know, like I said about stopping vlogging, like, I'm tired of thinking about myself, man. Yeah, I'm just done. I can't be— I'm not really gonna go on some mad journey of introspection and self-improvement, like, you know, Not that I'm not going to try and improve, I'm just not going to try it. I'm just not going to call it self-improvement, and I'm not going to sit there and think about myself all day and, you know, that kind of shit. I'm bored of considering myself. I've done a lot of it, right? I've done a lot of thinking about who I am and who I want to be and what I want to do in life, and, you know, my priorities and values I want to exhibit and everything, right? I've thought about that a million times over, and I'm kind of bored of myself, right? I think I'd like to focus on a different life, someone else's life, and giving them the best life experiences and opportunities and everything. Like, it feels just more, more interesting, more purposeful, and, you know, probably more rewarding as well.

Yeah. So what is the game plan for the next couple of months?

Oh, a couple months, man, that seems like a pretty short time frame.

No, for the next year.

Okay, so I would like to to get a million subscribers.

Yeah.

Now, years ago, if I would have said that, my— there would have been uproar in the comments because I was such a, you know, contrarian. I was so like anti-establishment, and you know what I mean? Everyone would have just been like, oh, you care about subscribers? Yeah. But to me, I know that like the physical number— because half of them will be like bot accounts anyway— so I know the physical number is pointless, but you need something to aim for, man.

It's like when guys try to aim up to bulk to 100 kg.

Literally. Yeah, yeah, that was my second one. So I want to, um, hit a million subscribers on YouTube, and I want to just lean into and grow the app, really. And I want to just make it the best functionally, the most useful app for its specific purpose of building muscle, right? It's, it's hypertrophy focused, and that will always be it. And we're not going to start bringing in meal plans, and we're not going to do this or cardio etc., right? It's, it's just got a focus, and I want to make it the best at its focus. And, you know, a lot of people have already paid us for a year subscription, and I want them at the end of the year to think that was a good fucking deal. I don't want them to think like, I used it for a few months, got a bit boring, etc., and fucked it off. And like, you know, so they're my two goals, and that's it really. I don't— they're obviously intertwined as well because growing the channel will help that Um, and you know, I am pretty, uh, I would say I prefer having limited focuses. I think that is one symptom of our, you know, social media world. Everyone kind of wants to be seen to be doing 10 things, right? It's like Christian Guzman-itis, right? Just because he can do it, it doesn't mean everyone can do it, right? And the thing is I bet if you dove into his, like, he can do it because he's probably hired a lot of people to do a lot of stuff and like he's just really a delegator, an organizer, and an overseer, right? Like, um, but I think a lot of, uh, a lot of people probably get the impression that they should have like 4 side hustles and this passion project over here and do this and do that. And I think like the result can be spreading yourself too thin. I, I would like to do many different things in my life, just not at the same time. Yeah, I'd like to do one and do it well, and then eventually I'll move on to something else and I'll try and do that as well as I can. And I'll give everything my full attention because I believe doing that, you get a kind of economy of scale, like you get better than— I think if you dedicate an hour to 5 different things or 5 hours to one thing I think you get a better reward from that. Yeah, it's like with, with YouTube videos. I saw a clip of MrBeast saying recently it's easier to make, uh, one video that gets, you know, 500,000 views than 10 videos that get 50,000. Yeah, I think he actually said like a video that gets 5 million or something like that.

But I saw that, yeah, it was an outburst.

It's true, you know, it's, it's very, very true.

Like, it's like when you try to download 5 files at a time and they all download really slowly. Yeah, you just choose one, it goes 100%.

These are the analogies, man.

Yeah.

So that's, that's my— that's a professional plan, right? And hopefully that'll, you know, allow me to do some, uh, personal stuff as well, like raise a fucking child, put me a little fucking armbands and shit, throwing me in the pool and just do cool shit, man.

Now we started the podcast off with a surprise. Did you think that's the only surprise we had?

Well, I actually did.

Well, it's about to get even better, right?

This is like when you open a present in front of your nan at Christmas, man. You gotta be— comes out and it's Lynx Africa and you gotta be hyped again, man. I hate people watching my reactions. Joe. Oh, it's for Joe Jr. Oh my God. Oh lad, he shouldn't have. Oh my God, ducks, man. Are they geese or ducks? I hope they're ducks because geese are twats.

Returns.

You should fit in.

Look at the little feet, man.

Yeah, I'm gonna need a bigger one of them, man. Yeah, yeah, I'm 33.

Everyone's shedding a tear.

Oh, it's beautiful, man. Thank you very much, I appreciate it, man.

Thank you for being in episode 1 Podcast.

Thanks guys, that's a wrap.

See you guys in the next one. Keep it real right here.

Easy.